Trevor Belmont Build Level 3

[FabulousFizban]

EDIT: for clarity, I was going off the new netflix show (which is amazing BTW) and not the game

EDIT 2: been adjusting build based on responses

Human Variant Fighter 3/rogue 3

Using Standard Stats
Str: 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8

Feat: Sentinel
4th: dual weilder

Style: Two Weapon Fighting

Battle Master:
Pushing Attack
Menacing attack
Sweeping attack

acrobatics
stealth
religion
perception
survival

Whip
Daggers
Stakes
shortsword

whip back/dagger throw
Prevent enemies getting adjacent with reaction AoOs from whip, push them back by targeting either strength (pushing attack) or wisdom (menacing attack) while throwing daggers with two weapon fighting. stop multiple enemies with sweeping attack/sentinel Use shortsword when out of daggers or in unavoidable melee.

questions, comments, criticisms?

[jaappleton]

Can you bend the rules a little? If you can...

Paladin of Devotion, but you use the Cleric's War Domain bonus spell list, not Devotion Paladin's.

Add in a couple levels of Monster Hunter Fighter.

[GlenSmash!]

To use the whip with two weapon fighting you'll need the dual wielder feat, since it's not light. If your min-maxing I'd switch the wis and cha scores. Otherwise I'd say you've got it spot on.

[Naanomi]

Five proficiences so... Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Investigation, (whatever INT skill covers monsters... could be Religion, History, or Arcana in the setting)

Poor optimization to have both athletics and acrobatics, but he does use both

[GlenSmash!]

Five proficiences so... Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Investigation, (whatever INT skill covers monsters... could be Religion, History, or Arcana in the setting)

Poor optimization to have both athletics and acrobatics, but he does use both

I find that Heroes form Fiction are often poorly optimized by D&D standards. I mean a ton of them use versatile weapons two-handed so the can't even get they -5/+10 form GWM???

[FabulousFizban]

To use the whip with two weapon fighting you'll need the dual wielder feat, since it's not light. If your min-maxing I'd switch the wis and cha scores. Otherwise I'd say you've got it spot on.

crap you're right, i thought only one weapon had to be light.

How do we feel about lunge as the 3rd maneuver?

[Boci]

crap you're right, i thought only one weapon had to be light. ok, so defensive duelist at fourth i guess.

3rd edition rule.

[Klorox]

I'm not into the video game, but I thought that Netflix series had a real good D&D feel. Good stuff.

[Naanomi]

I'm not into the video game, but I thought that Netflix series had a real good D&D feel. Good stuff.
I hope they add Grant Danasty; his absence was notable

[Easy_Lee]

Not to nitpick too much, but...

Going off the games, you shouldn't have Dual Wielder or extra attack. Any time the character was throwing something, he couldn't swing his whip at the same time. He basically made one attack per turn.
He'll need some strong charisma and wisdom to resist Dracula. He has to see through lies and resist temptation.
He moved equally quickly on all terrains except stairs.

With all of that in mind, consider revised ranger 1 / rogue (swashbuckler) X on a non-variant human. Favored enemy: Undead

In this rare example, our rogue doesn't worry about stealth. But he does excel at tracking down and killing undead.
He has advantage on initiative and adds his charisma as well.
No type of difficult terrain slows him down, not even if he has to chase Dracula through hell itself.
He can throw holy water, daggers, darts, and anything else he's carrying with his free hand. Find yourself some finesse hand axes and...crosses?
Sneak attack gives you consistent damage progression. Adding Swashbuckler, you'll get it most of the time.
Expertise in acrobatics for sweet flips. Expertise in survival to track foes, especially undead.
Full ASI progression +1, along with +1 to all stats. He's a paragon of humanity.
He'll eventually get proficiency in wisdom saves, and may spend an ASI for proficiency in charisma saves if needed, easily justified if our score is odd. Remember that Swashbucklers use charisma.

Is this character the best possible character? No. But he'll deal competitive damage, be useful both in melee and at range, and will be a significant help to the party with his skills.

[Unoriginal]

Int 8 - this cannot be justified by the character and is purely for min/maxing, I admit it. Intelligence is the rarest save. (for character accuracy you would dump wisdom)


It could be the Belmont from Captain N

[GlenSmash!]

Not to nitpick too much, but...

Going off the games, you shouldn't have Dual Wielder or extra attack. Any time the character was throwing something, he couldn't swing his whip at the same time. He basically made one attack per turn.
He'll need some strong charisma and wisdom to resist Dracula. He has to see through lies and resist temptation.
He moved equally quickly on all terrains except stairs.

With all of that in mind, consider revised ranger 1 / rogue (swashbuckler) X on a non-variant human. Favored enemy: Undead

In this rare example, our rogue doesn't worry about stealth. But he does excel at tracking down and killing undead.
He has advantage on initiative and adds his charisma as well.
No type of difficult terrain slows him down, not even if he has to chase Dracula through hell itself.
He can throw holy water, daggers, darts, and anything else he's carrying with his free hand. Find yourself some finesse hand axes and...crosses?
Sneak attack gives you consistent damage progression. Adding Swashbuckler, you'll get it most of the time.
Expertise in acrobatics for sweet flips. Expertise in survival to track foes, especially undead.
Full ASI progression +1, along with +1 to all stats. He's a paragon of humanity.
He'll eventually get proficiency in wisdom saves, and may spend an ASI for proficiency in charisma saves if needed, easily justified if our score is odd. Remember that Swashbucklers use charisma.

Is this character the best possible character? No. But he'll deal competitive damage, be useful both in melee and at range, and will be a significant help to the party with his skills.

Where are you getting proficiency in Wisdom Saves? Is that a swashbuckler feature?

[Easy_Lee]

Where are you getting proficiency in Wisdom Saves? Is that a swashbuckler feature?

Rogue 15. It's late, but it's there.

[Spore]

Monster Hunter Fighter. Nothing else.

[GlenSmash!]

Rogue 15. It's late, but it's there.

That's it! I knew Deepstalkers get it at 8, but couldn't remember where or when rogues got it.

[GlenSmash!]

Monster Hunter Fighter. Nothing else.

The name fits, the extra proficiency are nice, and the 3rd level ability is fitting, but the subclass as a whole just feels like a gimped Battlemaster. I hope they revisit it in future UA.

[ImproperJustice]

I've run a Dex based Monster Hunter and can safely say that I never felt like a gimped Battlemaster.

In fact, I was built for a mix of stealth, scouting, and crossbow sniping. When things got personal, I could mix it up with a scimitar (running an Al-Quadim campaign).

I felt well suited to my roll of slaying monsters and enemy magic users through judicious use of the specialized battle maneuvers.

I think the class would do Trevor some justice and maybe grab some Rogue or Revised Ranger for some extra flavor.

[GlenSmash!]

[QUOTE=ImproperJustice;22214619]I was built for a mix of stealth, scouting, and crossbow sniping. When things got personal, I could mix it up with a scimitar (running an Al-Quadim campaign).

I felt well suited to my roll of slaying monsters and enemy magic users through judicious use of the specialized battle maneuvers. /QUOTE]

Sure, but all that could also be done with the regular Battlemaster.

[ImproperJustice]

[QUOTE=ImproperJustice;22214619]I was built for a mix of stealth, scouting, and crossbow sniping. When things got personal, I could mix it up with a scimitar (running an Al-Quadim campaign).

I felt well suited to my roll of slaying monsters and enemy magic users through judicious use of the specialized battle maneuvers. /QUOTE]

Sure, but all that could also be done with the regular Battlemaster.

Really?

I must have missed the Battlemaster feature that lets you roll double superiority die for maximized damage, gives you advantage on perception checks to find invisible enemies (which was relevant in our undead/demon slaying campaig) and the Battlemaster feature that forces disadvantage on Con saves for maintaining Concentration.

If that's in there you should totally roll battlemaste and not take Monstet Slayer with the martial adept feat which increases your superiority die and gives you Battlemaster maneuvers in your Castlevania themed undead/demon slaying game.

[Spore]

The strength of the Monster Hunter lie in its huge skill pool. I did Rogue 1 into Monster Hunter with a slight focus on Int (Arcana, Religion, Nature) and Wis (for saves, Perception and vs. Deception). With Variant Human I even picked Resilient (Wisdom) and end up with 9 skills (Expertise in Perception and Stealth).

Sure it's not a 100% carbon copy but it does the job of mundane monster hunting pretty well.

[GlenSmash!]

[QUOTE=GlenSmash!;22215587]

Really?

I must have missed the Battlemaster feature that lets you roll double superiority die for maximized damage, gives you advantage on perception checks to find invisible enemies (which was relevant in our undead/demon slaying campaig) and the Battlemaster feature that forces disadvantage on Con saves for maintaining Concentration.

If that's in there you should totally roll battlemaste and not take Monstet Slayer with the martial adept feat which increases your superiority die and gives you Battlemaster maneuvers in your Castlevania themed undead/demon slaying game.

You did not mention things specifics in your post above. You only mentioned generalizations like stealth, scouting, sniping, etc. Now with your clarifications I can see what you like specifically about the subclass.

[ImproperJustice]

[QUOTE=ImproperJustice;22216125]

You did not mention things specifics in your post above. You only mentioned generalizations like stealth, scouting, sniping, etc. Now with your clarifications I can see what you like specifically about the subclass.

I apologize. I was overly snarky in my response.

[GlenSmash!]

[QUOTE=GlenSmash!;22218478]

I apologize. I was overly snarky in my response.

Accepted. I apologize for being jumping to conclusions about your decisions. And being dismissive before knowing the facts.

[Sariel Vailo]

http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/07/sanctified-hunter.html?m=1

This is catlevania this isnt a game

[RedMage125]

It could be the Belmont from Captain N

That was his great-grandson, Simon.

Who would have been mostly CHA, with low INT and WIS, lol.

In all seriousness, though...Trevor from the games would have had a higher STR, and would not have needed much CHA. C3:DC mentioned that the people of Transylvania were frightened of the Belmont family's supernatual powers and asked them to leave the country. But then they found a "mighty Belmont" and chose him to champion them.

Basically, Trevor was a warrior where most of his family were mystics. The people mistrusted the supernatural, and he fought off monsters with brute force rather than magic. He was chosen because he was a warrior, not because he was likable.

Also, low INT isn't too far off the mark here, either. In the game, he didn't realize Sypha was a woman until after Dracula was defeated. Nor did he realize that the vampire Alucard ("Dracula" spelled backwards) who had joined him was Dracula's own son.

I overall liked the show, but I've been a huge fan of the games since the days of NES. I remember when Castlevania 2 was new, lol. I've also played every game in the series except Order of Ecclesia for the DS, that includes the Lords of Shadow series (an excellent re-imagining). I wish the show had more than 4 episodes, though. They did a great job with the backstory with Lisa, and how they've shown Trevor so far. I like that they went with the Symphony of the Night version of Alucard, but his clothes were ridiculous. I'm ambivalent towards Grant DaNasty. Plot-wise, he's the least significant of all of Trevor's companions, although he was probably the most fun to play the game with.

I get that the OP wanted to make Trevor from the show, but even that Trevor wouldn't rank very high in CHA (he was kind of a surly jerkbag). And I know that DEX gets such a high rating for mechanical reasons (as well as the acrobatics he pulls), but I think his STR still rates above a 10.

For his proficiencies, I would rate Athletics and Acrobatics first, followed immediately by Religion (knowledge of undead and how to fight them). No real need for Investigation, Trevor was a warrior, not a detective. Perception, MAYBE. It's a good fall back option. Arcana is good for monster knowledge, as well as that Trevor exhibits a knowledge of how some magical attacks can be thwarted. Let us also not underestimate Survival. Trevor is very comfortable roughing it in the wild.


http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/07/sanctified-hunter.html?m=1

This is catlevania this isnt a game

That is some overpowered BS.

[GlenSmash!]

..snip...

Sold analysis. You've convinced me about strength. I mean, in the Show, we did meed Trevor when he was brawling with some local oafs. Those punches would have been using strength damage, unless he had monk levels (which doesn't seem to fit to me). 12-14 would suffice.

I also think Trevor dumped charisma. He just doesn't seem that good at convincing people to do what he wants.

I was bummed at only having 4 episodes too. I hope the next batch gets here quickly.

[mephnick]

That is some overpowered BS.

Don't worry. The MfoV crew will be here any second to assure you that it's been super play-tested (by...someone?) and will educate you on why it's amazingly well balanced.

I didn't read it I'm just being snarky.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I'd take a peek at this. (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/07/sanctified-hunter.html)

EDIT: Someone already share it. Never mind.

[RedMage125]

Don't worry. The MfoV crew will be here any second to assure you that it's been super play-tested (by...someone?) and will educate you on why it's amazingly well balanced.

I didn't read it I'm just being snarky.

It's ridiculous.

I'm willing to concede that the Vampire Killer is probably by now a very potent magical weapon. But they have it as a +3 whip with 15 foot reach that does extra 2d10 radiant to ANY undead it hits, and an additional 1d10 against vampires. That's just ridiculous. If the whip were THAT effective, those games would be a lot easier.

Also, there's a new feat that increases any whip's reach by another 5 feet.

The class itself seems to be an attempt to imitate the Belmonts in the games, but those games are action platformers meant for a single protagonist to do everything himself, not for a member of a group of heroes.

[iTreeby]

For the whip I'd just reskin the holy avenger a little bit. Maybe drop the paladine stuff entirely, the aura is arguably the best thing about it though...

[RedMage125]

For the whip I'd just reskin the holy avenger a little bit. Maybe drop the paladine stuff entirely, the aura is arguably the best thing about it though...

Meh, the one thing I do like is the advantage on saving throws against all vampires' abilities. That's kind of perfect, actually.

I do think it should be treated like a Legacy Weapon, actually. One that can only be used by members of certain bloodlines, and have the abilities scale. Maybe the bonus to hit and damage can never exceed one half proficiency bonus (rounded down).

[Submortimer]

I'm willing to concede that the Vampire Killer is probably by now a very potent magical weapon. But they have it as a +3 whip with 15 foot reach that does extra 2d10 radiant to ANY undead it hits, and an additional 1d10 against vampires. That's just ridiculous. If the whip were THAT effective, those games would be a lot easier.


It's a legendary magic whip. Balance isn't really a concern. And, to be fair, I am specifically trying to emulate the fully upgraded whip you can get in the pre-SotN Castlevania games, where it became a chain whip that was about twice as long as your starting whip and has a ball at the end.



Also, there's a new feat that increases any whip's reach by another 5 feet.


Is that a problem, and why? That's not snark, I just want to know what the issue is.



The class itself seems to be an attempt to imitate the Belmonts in the games, but those games are action platformers meant for a single protagonist to do everything himself, not for a member of a group of heroes.

And, I mean, it still can't. Against anything other than its specific foes (aberrations, fiends, shapechangers, and Undead) it's almost no better than a normal fighter:

- The damage boosting abilities specifically only work against those creatures and only with those specific, low-damage-dice weapons (except the battle cross, but you can't throw that more than twice in a round)
- The sense abilities are a ribbon. The movement and skill ability at level 7 is better in different ways, worse than other than the champion ability, since it doesn't give you any benefit to initiative.
- The level 10 defensive ability is resistance to a single damage type, and the rest is a ribbon.
- the level 15 ability...well, okay, that's kinda strong for a fighter. I could make it once per long rest instead.
- the capstone is a 1/long rest big explosion. For it being at 18th level, it's not OP in the slightest.

[RedMage125]

Don't worry. The MfoV crew will be here any second to assure you that it's been super play-tested (by...someone?) and will educate you on why it's amazingly well balanced.

I didn't read it I'm just being snarky.

Look like you were right, lol.

It's a legendary magic whip. Balance isn't really a concern. And, to be fair, I am specifically trying to emulate the fully upgraded whip you can get in the pre-SotN Castlevania games, where it became a chain whip that was about twice as long as your starting whip and has a ball at the end.
15 feet is a ridiculous amount of reach. Regular whips are 10 ft reach, that is sufficient to emulate. Given the combination of the ridiculous whip master feat, makes it a 20 foot reach, d8 weapon. In the hands of one of these Sanctified Hunters that means, even at legendary (so level 17+), you are looking at 3 or 4 attacks, not counting use of Action surge. And any campaign that featured this weapon would certainly feature vampires as a major villain, yes? So your big bad will take 1d8+3+STR or DEX+3d10 per attack. In the hands of a high level Fighter, that becomes 4d8+12+(4xSTR or DEX)+12d10. Or twice that with Action Surge. Did I mention that's at a reach that no other weapon in the game can match?

It outclasses the Holy Avenger by leaps and bounds in this bailiwick.


And, I mean, it still can't. Against anything other than its specific foes (aberrations, fiends, shapechangers, and Undead) it's almost no better than a normal fighter:

- The damage boosting abilities specifically only work against those creatures and only with those specific, low-damage-dice weapons (except the battle cross, but you can't throw that more than twice in a round)
- The sense abilities are a ribbon. The movement and skill ability at level 7 is better in different ways, worse than other than the champion ability, since it doesn't give you any benefit to initiative.
- The level 10 defensive ability is resistance to a single damage type, and the rest is a ribbon.
- the level 15 ability...well, okay, that's kinda strong for a fighter. I could make it once per long rest instead.
- the capstone is a 1/long rest big explosion. For it being at 18th level, it's not OP in the slightest.

Ok, to start:
The Battle Cross is ridiculous. 1d8 Light, Thrown, Finesse...and you've introduced the new "Returning" mechanic that is preposterous. Why an Athletics check? Making a DC 15 skill check for this is ridiculous to begin with, but with Light, Finesse, and Thrown in the mix, all which lead towards DEX, you need a STR skill to catch it? Odd, considering it should be a measure of coordination, not brute power, to catch something flying towards you. And 1d8? NO OTHER LIGHT THROWN WEAPON DOES THAT MUCH. When making a new weapon, one should balance it against existing ones, something the Battle Cross fails to do.

Had a longer rant about it's OP-edness, until I re-read it and noticed the "disadvantage when used in melee" bit. That mitigates it somewhat. Still hate it, though. I understand that the cross is the best sub-weapon in the games that were being emulated, but it's just not right.

Oh, and it can be thrown a lot more than once per round, if one has the Master Thrower feat introduced here. You can only CATCH two per round, since they come back "at the end of your turn". If a level 18 fighter has 8 on his person, he can THROW 8.

-The sense abilities are a ribbon, I can see that. But why secret doors? That's nonsensical to the theme of the class. It doesn't fit the "Castlevania" theme.
-The level 7 ability grants proficiency AND expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics? That's a bit much. I'd suggest granting proficiency in those skills, and doubled proficiency bonus IF the person is already proficient in those skills. The jumping thing is fine.
-The level 10 ability is fine, I agree with your statement.
-The level 15 ability is also okay as-is
-The capstone is a 20 ft radius IFF 10d12 blast? That's kind of severe, isn't it? Not many IFF AoEs.

I actually like Master Thrower. That's the best and most balanced thing in the entire document. At first I thought the "quick draw" part was redundant with everyone's "object interaction", but I like the lack of cap on that. A high level Fighter who focused on daggers could throw 9 daggers in one turn, which is cool as hell. It's on par with other good feats, like Crossbow Expert. It's a good choice without being overpowered.

Whip Master is utterly absurd. Increase the damage die by TWO sizes? And then add 5 foot reach to a weapon that is ALREADY a reach weapon? And 10 lbs is a lot to hold with a whip.

I suggest increase damage by ONE size (d6) and remove the reach increase. For the second bullet, I would add grapple to the list of maneuvers one can do within the whip's reach, with the caveat that while a creature is grappled by the whip, that it cannot be used to attack. Then reduce the weight of the object that can be grabbed to 5 lbs, and specify UNATTENDED objects.

[Submortimer]

Look like you were right, lol.

15 feet is a ridiculous amount of reach. Regular whips are 10 ft reach, that is sufficient to emulate. Given the combination of the ridiculous whip master feat, makes it a 20 foot reach, d8 weapon. In the hands of one of these Sanctified Hunters that means, even at legendary (so level 17+), you are looking at 3 or 4 attacks, not counting use of Action surge. And any campaign that featured this weapon would certainly feature vampires as a major villain, yes? So your big bad will take 1d8+3+STR or DEX+3d10 per attack. In the hands of a high level Fighter, that becomes 4d8+12+(4xSTR or DEX)+12d10. Or twice that with Action Surge. Did I mention that's at a reach that no other weapon in the game can match?

It outclasses the Holy Avenger by leaps and bounds in this bailiwick.



Well, again, it's a magic item: It doesn't really need to be balanced, because the DM can just not give it out, and he or she should be prepared to deal with it at that point. Honestly, it should be an Artifact, since there's literally only one...and I may re-write it as such.



Ok, to start:
The Battle Cross is ridiculous. 1d8 Light, Thrown, Finesse...and you've introduced the new "Returning" mechanic that is preposterous. Why an Athletics check? Making a DC 15 skill check for this is ridiculous to begin with, but with Light, Finesse, and Thrown in the mix, all which lead towards DEX, you need a STR skill to catch it? Odd, considering it should be a measure of coordination, not brute power, to catch something flying towards you. And 1d8? NO OTHER LIGHT THROWN WEAPON DOES THAT MUCH. When making a new weapon, one should balance it against existing ones, something the Battle Cross fails to do.


This makes more sense if you see it in context for other stuff we've made. This is an Exotic weapon, which we introduced with our craftsman class. It's balanced against our Chakram, which deals 1d6, but lacks the "Disadvantage on melee attacks". Also, real talk, Throwing weapons are not anywhere close to being something that 5e either emphasizes or allows you to truly spec into: the damage possible is way below something like TWF.



Had a longer rant about it's OP-edness, until I re-read it and noticed the "disadvantage when used in melee" bit. That mitigates it somewhat. Still hate it, though. I understand that the cross is the best sub-weapon in the games that were being emulated, but it's just not right.


And that's really the point. I decided to go this route since it seemed the easiest way to emulate this very specific thing, rather than do what I was planning on originally (making it a Sanctified Hunter only cantrip).



Oh, and it can be thrown a lot more than once per round, if one has the Master Thrower feat introduced here. You can only CATCH two per round, since they come back "at the end of your turn". If a level 18 fighter has 8 on his person, he can THROW 8.


And really, this is splitting hairs. Sure, you could throw 8 if you took the master thrower feat, were level 20, used your action surge, and had 8 of them on you: you could still only do that once, since all but 2 wouldn't return to you. At the same time, you could just shoot someone 8 times with a longbow and do the same amount of damage, or more if you sharpshooter those attacks (something you can't do with thrown weapons, since they specifically aren't ranged weapons) .



-The sense abilities are a ribbon, I can see that. But why secret doors? That's nonsensical to the theme of the class. It doesn't fit the "Castlevania" theme.
-The level 7 ability grants proficiency AND expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics? That's a bit much. I'd suggest granting proficiency in those skills, and doubled proficiency bonus IF the person is already proficient in those skills. The jumping thing is fine.
-The level 10 ability is fine, I agree with your statement.
-The level 15 ability is also okay as-is
-The capstone is a 20 ft radius IFF 10d12 blast? That's kind of severe, isn't it? Not many IFF AoEs.


1. Honestly, the secret doors part is the MOST Castlevania about that ability, since it alludes to the "finding meat hidden in the walls" nature of the game. The rest of the ability is there to make this a bit more playable in a regular setting.
2. Yeah, I'm starting to agree with you. I think i will probably change it as you suggested.
3 - 4. Thank you, I thought so.
5. It's really supposed to be an upgraded Destructive wave, which allows you to designate targets. the potential for 120 damage at level 18 didn't seem too much for me, but I may cut it back a little.



I actually like Master Thrower. That's the best and most balanced thing in the entire document. At first I thought the "quick draw" part was redundant with everyone's "object interaction", but I like the lack of cap on that. A high level Fighter who focused on daggers could throw 9 daggers in one turn, which is cool as hell. It's on par with other good feats, like Crossbow Expert. It's a good choice without being overpowered.


Yeah, the quick draw part is just needed. There's no way in the rules as they stand to really be a guy who can throw a crap-ton of daggers in a short timespan.



Whip Master is utterly absurd. Increase the damage die by TWO sizes? And then add 5 foot reach to a weapon that is ALREADY a reach weapon? And 10 lbs is a lot to hold with a whip.

I suggest increase damage by ONE size (d6) and remove the reach increase. For the second bullet, I would add grapple to the list of maneuvers one can do within the whip's reach, with the caveat that while a creature is grappled by the whip, that it cannot be used to attack. Then reduce the weight of the object that can be grabbed to 5 lbs, and specify UNATTENDED objects.


I think you may be getting hung up on this whole reach thing. It always struck me as odd that the whip got a 5 foot reduction to length from 3.5 to 5e, and this was really to correct that. Really, it's one of those weapons that has no niche or use: hand crossbows do more damage and have longer range, and polearms do a lot more damage and can gain the benefits of polearm master.

I may drop the damage back down, but I'm not convinced yet. When I balance something, I generally try to look at what the class can already do with a similar amount of resources with just the core book. For the Battle Cross, I looked at the longbow and sharpshooter, and took into account that, even if the fighter had a decent number of crosses, he couldn't sustain 4 attacks with that weapon per round, whereas the archer could. That, and I'm reasonably certain that no fighting styles work with thrown weapons. For the whip, I looked at the Hand Crossbow and Crossbow Expert, which results in a similar set up, but you trade range for damage. Where that get's sticky (and why I might drop the damage down) is that you certainly CAN use the dueling style with the whip. I need to fiddle with some math to see how that all works out.

I considered Grapple, but I thought the mechanics of it were too messy. I may reconsider that.

And you're right, it should be unattended objects, and it should be 5 lbs. or under.

[RedMage125]

Well, again, it's a magic item: It doesn't really need to be balanced, because the DM can just not give it out, and he or she should be prepared to deal with it at that point. Honestly, it should be an Artifact, since there's literally only one...and I may re-write it as such.
Perhaps. Even making it a particularly longer whip may be fine in that regard, as an artifact. One could go the "Lords of Shadow" route and emphasize that the chain retracts into the handle.

My whole point was that to actually put this into a game that feature vampires, in the hands of a Sanctified Hunter would result in an EXTREMELY one-sided battle. And battles against actual vampires in those games were NEVER that easy.



This makes more sense if you see it in context for other stuff we've made. This is an Exotic weapon, which we introduced with our craftsman class. It's balanced against our Chakram, which deals 1d6, but lacks the "Disadvantage on melee attacks". Also, real talk, Throwing weapons are not anywhere close to being something that 5e either emphasizes or allows you to truly spec into: the damage possible is way below something like TWF.
I think the very concept of the exotic weapon is a little silly to begin with.
For real, though, catching a returning weapon should be Dexterity (Acrobatics), and NOT Strength (Athletics).



And that's really the point. I decided to go this route since it seemed the easiest way to emulate this very specific thing, rather than do what I was planning on originally (making it a Sanctified Hunter only cantrip).
Except that the Battle Cross in the original games didn't ACTUALLY do that much more damage per strike. But it hit multiple times, and was easier to hit moving targets due to flying straight. As opposed to the Axe, for example.

This may seem anal-retentive and detail-oriented, but to fully simulate it, perhaps it would be better to do 1d4 damage, but each thrown Cross gets 2 attacks, one on way out, one on way back. Specify that the "return flight" one does not add STR or DEX to damage, and you have a potential 2d4+STR/DEX per Cross, but since it's only 1d4 per hit, it is less out of line with other weapons.


And really, this is splitting hairs. Sure, you could throw 8 if you took the master thrower feat, were level 20, used your action surge, and had 8 of them on you: you could still only do that once, since all but 2 wouldn't return to you. At the same time, you could just shoot someone 8 times with a longbow and do the same amount of damage, or more if you sharpshooter those attacks (something you can't do with thrown weapons, since they specifically aren't ranged weapons) .
The Longbow is also meant to represent the English Longbow. LITERALLY the peak of military technology for the time. An arrow fired from it could pierce PLATE. The Battle Cross is a pointy boomerang.

No, the two are not supposed to be comparable. That's like saying that a Fighter who uses clubs or maces (basically a metal club) should have comparable damage output to a greatsword wielder.



1. Honestly, the secret doors part is the MOST Castlevania about that ability, since it alludes to the "finding meat hidden in the walls" nature of the game. The rest of the ability is there to make this a bit more playable in a regular setting.
2. Yeah, I'm starting to agree with you. I think i will probably change it as you suggested.
3 - 4. Thank you, I thought so.
5. It's really supposed to be an upgraded Destructive wave, which allows you to designate targets. the potential for 120 damage at level 18 didn't seem too much for me, but I may cut it back a little.

1. But no Belmont ever "detected" those secret wall breaks through any kind of self-agency. There was no item that made them shimmer, no clue to where a secret might be located. You had to run around, whipping EVERY WALL YOU CAME ACROSS, like a G-D lunatic, until you found a wall that broke. Hell, in Simon's Quest, you had to throw holy water all over the place, just to make sure every other block you stepped on wasn't a completely indistinguishable illusion. I'm sorry but no. No Belmont EVER had an ability that made "finding secret doors" any easier for them than for any other chump in a dungeon.
5. Is it? I'm AFB at the moment (on an aircraft carrier). What got me is that the power is IFF (Identify Friend or Foe). Maybe if it only targeted non-good creatures. Dealing half damage to non-good-non-evil creatures (so 1/4 damage on a successful save). That makes it a significant Holy Nova blast. The ability to selectively remove creatures from an AoE blast is pretty darned awesome.



Yeah, the quick draw part is just needed. There's no way in the rules as they stand to really be a guy who can throw a crap-ton of daggers in a short timespan.

Like I said, best part of the whole document. Balanced, while still remaining an attractive option.


I think you may be getting hung up on this whole reach thing. It always struck me as odd that the whip got a 5 foot reduction to length from 3.5 to 5e, and this was really to correct that. Really, it's one of those weapons that has no niche or use: hand crossbows do more damage and have longer range, and polearms do a lot more damage and can gain the benefits of polearm master.

I may drop the damage back down, but I'm not convinced yet. When I balance something, I generally try to look at what the class can already do with a similar amount of resources with just the core book. For the Battle Cross, I looked at the longbow and sharpshooter, and took into account that, even if the fighter had a decent number of crosses, he couldn't sustain 4 attacks with that weapon per round, whereas the archer could. That, and I'm reasonably certain that no fighting styles work with thrown weapons. For the whip, I looked at the Hand Crossbow and Crossbow Expert, which results in a similar set up, but you trade range for damage. Where that get's sticky (and why I might drop the damage down) is that you certainly CAN use the dueling style with the whip. I need to fiddle with some math to see how that all works out.

I considered Grapple, but I thought the mechanics of it were too messy. I may reconsider that.

And you're right, it should be unattended objects, and it should be 5 lbs. or under.
Ok, first the reach. There's no reason that being extra good with a whip should in any way extend the physical length of a piece of braided leather. Training doesn't physically alter your equipment, and the reach of a whip is about how long the whip is, not how good you are with it. Most Bullwhips really aren't fifteen feet long. Do yo have ANY idea how hard that would be to snap and crack with? But in 3.5e they also only did 1d3 nonlethal damage, and NONE if the target had +1 or better natural armor. So...there's that.

A feat needs to be designed so it will appeal to more than just the one concept you're working with. I say let the feat increase the damage die by one size. More damage with a weapon COULD be reflective of specialized training with it, since damage is an abstraction anyway.

If you want the d8 damage die for your Belmont, I suggest adding another mundane weapon, the Chain Whip (mention the spiked weight at the end for flavor, which is also vague enough to think of it as half of a kusari-gama). Make its base damage die 1d6 Bludgeoning/Piercing. If you're hell-bent on the reach issue (which I VIOLENTLY disagree with), make it 15 foot reach. Specify that proficiency with a whip equals proficiency with Chain Whip. Now, with the Chain Whip AND the feat, they'll get 1d8 damage. I still maintain that the reach should be removed from the feat.

Don't underestimate the appeal of being able to grapple at a distance. That's actually huge. Not to mention it EXPLICITLY only takes up one hand for the character holding the whip, as opposed to him "wrestling" the enemy.

I'm glad you agree on the objects. Unattended is one of the bigger flaws. But the weight was a bit of an issue.

[Submortimer]

On the issue of extending the reach, note that the proposed spear-fighting feat in...whatever issue of UA that was in gives you the ability to increase the reach of your spear by 5 feet: It's less about making the actual thing longer and more about your effective range with it.

Also, why ARE you "violently" opposed to the whip having a 15 foot reach? I still don't see the issue, or the balance concerns.

As for the battle cross, we're not really worrying about realism in our fantasy game; it does 1d8 damage because it does 1d8 damage. In reality, I wouldn't go up against a fully armored knight with a quarterstaff, but THAT does 1d8 damage (when used in 2 hands), so there's a bit of a disconnect there. The point is that there exists greater capability for sustained ranged damage in core book, this is below that in terms of power, so there's little to get hung up about.
As well, athletics still seems like the right skill to use: it's what I would use if you're trying to throw or catch a frisbee, Certainly not acrobatics. Maybe just a flat dex check.

[GlenSmash!]

I've run a Dex based Monster Hunter and can safely say that I never felt like a gimped Battlemaster.

In fact, I was built for a mix of stealth, scouting, and crossbow sniping. When things got personal, I could mix it up with a scimitar (running an Al-Quadim campaign).

I felt well suited to my roll of slaying monsters and enemy magic users through judicious use of the specialized battle maneuvers.

I think the class would do Trevor some justice and maybe grab some Rogue or Revised Ranger for some extra flavor.

I'm back to eat some crow! Please forgive the thread necro. After taking another look at the Monster Hunter and seeing what you mentioned here, I decided to take a look at another fighter I had dismissed, the Scout. It turns out I not only think it's also pretty good, but it's become one of my favorites.

Just wanted to say, you challenged something I was "sure" about, and that lead to me having more fun, so Thanks!

[RedMage125]

On the issue of extending the reach, note that the proposed spear-fighting feat in...whatever issue of UA that was in gives you the ability to increase the reach of your spear by 5 feet: It's less about making the actual thing longer and more about your effective range with it.

Also, why ARE you "violently" opposed to the whip having a 15 foot reach? I still don't see the issue, or the balance concerns.
The idea of a 15 foot reach weapon is ridiculous to me. I don't use UA, so I didn't know about that feat. But the way you wrote Vampire Killer makes it a 20 foot reach with that feat. Which I still think is ridiculous. Even assuming Trevor/Simon in the originals was 6 foot or more, that doesn't make the fully upgraded whip 15'.


As for the battle cross, we're not really worrying about realism in our fantasy game; it does 1d8 damage because it does 1d8 damage. In reality, I wouldn't go up against a fully armored knight with a quarterstaff, but THAT does 1d8 damage (when used in 2 hands), so there's a bit of a disconnect there. The point is that there exists greater capability for sustained ranged damage in core book, this is below that in terms of power, so there's little to get hung up about.
It seems odd that a Light, Thrown weapon would do that much. You also gave it the Finesse ability, which seems odd, since it's explicitly stated to be specifically AWKWARD to use in melee. And Finesse only applies to melee. Finesse implies that the weapon can be used with a certain amount of elegance and grace. Take the Rapier for example. A graceful, elegant weapon.


As well, athletics still seems like the right skill to use: it's what I would use if you're trying to throw or catch a frisbee, Certainly not acrobatics. Maybe just a flat dex check.
Just because something is associated with a physical activity, doesn't automatically make "Athletics" the appropriate skill. After all, Olympic gymnastics are considered an "althetics competition", and almost everything about them, balancing, tumbling, flips, would be the Acrobatics skill if translated to D&D.
Athletics is STRENGTH. Climbing, Jumping, Swimming...and so on.
Catching this weapon (or a Frisbee, for that matter), is a matter of physical coordination. Dexterity, not raw strength and power. Acrobatics is as good a fit as a raw DEX check.

[Grim Gaddy]

I've used this build and I'll say that its strangely effective. The only real thing I changed was I dropped sweeping attack and replaced it with disarm. Early in second level for him I got into the habit of Disarm, action surge then either Menacing or Pushing attack. My DM was... not thrilled the first time I did it. I've done it with shields, weapons, it only got worse as Belmont reached level 5 where for once creature he'd strip them of everything they were holding and with a crack on an action surge push them back and frighten them so they couldn't go near their gear...

...So if I would change anything, I'd pick up Disarm. Even in the anime Trevor disarms one of the "priests" threatening him.

"Oh sorry i meant to just get the dagger, how's your finger?"