The Marvelous Magical Wagon

[Eisfalken]

So I as mulling over animate object and permanency, thinking about something fun to do with it, when it hit me:

What if I made a giant-sized wagon? Something Gargantuan in size, which is just within reach of some early-ish shenanigans (takes CL 16 to animate Gargantuan). It basically would double the size, capacity, etc. of a normal wagon, which is Huge. It even actually seems to fit the general guidelines for the correct size footprint (it's only very slightly longer than the 20 ft. square used by Gargantuan creatures, especially the "long" ones that are clearly longer than 20 ft.).

So then I got to thinking about Arms & Equipment Guide, and how it noted that a drawn vehicle with wheels only counts one-fourth the weight for carrying capacity for the dray creature. And I wondered to myself, would a wheeled animated object follow this rule? It seems rather reasonable; the motive power does come from the object itself, but the point of that AEG rule was that wheels help make heavy loads easier to move regardless. The object is just "motive" now, with the Strength the spell gives to it.

What would you guys say? I'm having trouble parsing the RAW on this one; the object may be a construct, but it definitely still seems to follow the rules for the object it is based on (hardness, abilities based specifically on the material and/or size of the object, etc.). Would it be out of line to say that a wheeled animated object can use the "one-quarter" rule for drawn vehicle weight?

Because if so... I just found a way to create magic trains (without all that fussy stuff from Eberron). Only takes some Strength-boosting to really pile on the weight capacity of the lead "engine", but once you get big enough wagons behind it, it's all gravy...

[Florian]

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animated%20Tank ???

[weckar]

a drawn vehicle with wheels only counts one-fourth the weight for carrying capacity for the dray creature. And I wondered to myself, would a wheeled animated object follow this rule? It seems rather reasonable Doesn't this imply that making the cart heavier would allow it to pull heavier loads? So you should make it out of lead?

[CIDE]

Based on the Zeppelin from the Arms and Equipment guide you can animate just the props for locomotion rather than the whole vehicle. It doesn't actually give the solid crunch on it but it states it can happen. I imagine you could do the exact same thing with the wagon and simply animate the wheels. I would personally rule it exactly like a beast of burden for carrying capacity as well only in this case it's split up between four 'creatures'. By RAW though if you animated the entire wagon it'd just have the basic carrying capacity of an animated object of its size. Probably RAW in both cases, actually.

[DrMotives]

The A&EG has an enchantment called "Self-propelled vehicle" which can be applied to any land vehicle of Large size or more. Cost is 132kgp, and gives it a standard speed of 60.

[CIDE]

The A&EG has an enchantment called "Self-propelled vehicle" which can be applied to any land vehicle of Large size or more. Cost is 132kgp, and gives it a standard speed of 60.

I never noticed that but I also never, ever, ever, ever look at land transportation. I've never needed it in any game outside of a few horses or donkeys or maybe a class with a mount. But 132k? That's a ridiculous price.

[DrMotives]

I never noticed that but I also never, ever, ever, ever look at land transportation. I've never needed it in any game outside of a few horses or donkeys or maybe a class with a mount. But 132k? That's a ridiculous price.

I agree. For that price, you could buy 3 whole zeppelins and still have change left over. The most expensive land vehicle I can find, a Jabba the Hut style sand ship from Sandstorm, is still only 16k for the vehicle itself.

[Eisfalken]

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animated%20Tank ???

Yeah, no. For that price, I can just get an Eberron airship, an arcane ballista (FOW) and a pack of effigies as crew/soldiers. A couple of scrolls for animate object and permanency (with 3,000 XP on it) would only cost 18,525 gp. Plus, this isn't about making a war machine, just a mobile home/boat (wooden animated objects get a swim speed).


Doesn't this imply that making the cart heavier would allow it to pull heavier loads? So you should make it out of lead?

I literally don't know where you got that implication. The rule in AEG states that drawn vehicles divide the weight because they have wheels or runners that make pulling the weight easier. Nowhere in there did it say anything whatsoever about "heavier carts pulling heavier loads".

For example, a regular wheeled wagon made of wood divides it's own weight by 4 to get the effective pull weight that the creatures pulling it have to "carry". If you made that same wagon out of lead, then it would most assuredly weigh more (though with wheels it would at least have a chance of being pulled along, since it's total weight is still only divided by 4 to get the pull weight).

Edit: Keep in mind, this does NOT affect the capacity of the wagon. It can still only carry X amount of stuff, because it's not just about the weight, it's about the surface/volume it can actually have put on it. Same as with some of the magic containers that have weight and volume limits. The "divide by 4" rule simply says that dray creatures can pull more weight if it's on wheels. Google articles about "wagon train" and you'll see that that's exactly how they did things back in the day: hitch up several wagons with heavy stuff, use huge teams of animals to pull far more than they normally could.

My idea is simply to create a bigger cart and then animate it. The bigger cart does weigh more... but it would still divide total weight by 4 to get pull weight. Since it is a giant-sized wagon, it would normally use giant-sized drays to pull it (either something like a woolly mammoth, a dire animal, or some other hideously big creature). But that's where the animate object spell comes in: it is what provides the wagon with motive power, rather than using other creatures to pull it (using the animated object Strength of 24, for a Gargantuan object, as well as Gargantuan quadruped carrying capacity, which is pretty ridiculous).

The question was if anyone could see any RAW reason why I couldn't necessarily apply the drawn weight rules in AEG to a wheeled vehicle, and this may be a gap that is basically "DM fiat". Logically, it all makes sense, but we know D&D rules have not really always hewn that close to logic.


By RAW though if you animated the entire wagon it'd just have the basic carrying capacity of an animated object of its size. Probably RAW in both cases, actually.

Well, that's actually not really a problem. If a Gargantuan animated wagon counts as a quadruped, then that basic Strength 24 gives it a lot of capacity. The wheels are the real stickler for me here, because that's what would open up the pull weight option to lighten the load a bit: it would be the difference between a medium and light load, and/or being able to build an actual cottage on the thing, or having to make do with tents, portable huts, etc.

My feeling is that RAW may not apply strictly: there are no rules in the game for wheeled creatures as such. For guidance, I looked in Stormwrack for what happens if you can animate a ship (since I first thought about doing this with a boat). The rules there state specifically that while the ship can't attack anyone on it, it can otherwise move as directed. But the rules aren't clear about the interaction of cargo capacity of a ship and the carrying capacity it would have if it was animated.

The movement part is what I'm after, really. If a ship can propel itself in the water (albeit at the swim speed of a Gargantuan wooden object, which the rules say is 25 ft. which is still way better than rowing or even sailing most times), then what about a wheeled vehicle? If it gets the "divide by 4" rule for carried weight, this would open up a lot of very fun opportunities for travel. Even without the "divide by 4" rule, a Gargantuan animated wagon still has a massive amount of carrying capacity to at least set up a nice-sized tent, portable hut, or other such shelter on (or multiple such shelters, actually), making it really interesting to use while adventuring.

Ideally, the wagon gets pull weight rules for it, allowing me to put up actual walls and a roof, and make it a small but very cozy mobile home. My conservative estimates are that architecture and some furniture would add somewhere around 1.5-2 tons of carried weight (divided by 4 if that was allowed), plus passengers and cargo (PCs, equipment, provisions, etc.). Anything left would be for hauling loot around.

It would be better to animate the whole wagon so that it's easier to command and thus steer; doing each wheel separately would be problematic having to command each wheel in a few situations here and there. Besides, all I have to do is get my grubby hands on a scroll of awaken construct, and then we'll really have some fun...

[weckar]

I literally don't know where you got that implication. The rule in AEG states that drawn vehicles divide the weight because they have wheels or runners that make pulling the weight easier. Nowhere in there did it say anything whatsoever about "heavier carts pulling heavier loads".

For example, a regular wheeled wagon made of wood divides it's own weight by 4 to get the effective pull weight that the creatures pulling it have to "carry". If you made that same wagon out of lead, then it would most assuredly weigh more (though with wheels it would at least have a chance of being pulled along, since it's total weight is still only divided by 4 to get the pull weight).

I misread, I thought it said


a drawn vehicle with wheels only counts AS one-fourth the weight for carrying capacity for the dray creature
Added the word I accidentally read in there. So making the vehicle heavier would make the capacity for the dray creature go up at the same rate. Which apparently would extend to animated carts. My bad.

[haplot]

There are various options that are better than just animating the wagon (imo)

If you animate the wagon, it just counts as a creature of its size. If you put weapons on it, it can use them in self defence. It gets no other benefits, however, if you leave it as a normal vehicle, you can then use some of the advanced mobility options from the Arms and Equipment Guide to speed it up and do it quite cheaply.

1. A bridle of burden bearing. Comes in +2, +4, and +6 options (4k, 16k, or 32k respectively). Increases the strength of the animal pulling the wagon the bridle is attached to. Since the increased strength gives it a better load capacity and a normal wagon is treated as one quarter of its total weight for being towed, this effectively reduces the weight thats 'on' the beast and therefore speeds it up.

2. Speedy wheels (100g per wheel) Place a pair on a vehicle (same axle). Increases its movement speed by 10ft. Still needs something to pull the wagon though, but the wagon goes faster. Obviously the wheels have a red paint job or something :D

3. To make it self propelled. 132k. speed of 60ft, but give it the speedy wheels from point 2 and you're onto a winner !!

If you're really worried about carrying capacity, then you can always a dimensional trunk at a mere 10k. Your wagon should be able to carry quite a number of them as long as they are stacked tidily. Effectively infinite carrying capacity. Woot!!

Edit: Horseshoes of speed from the dmg page 260. Increases landspeed of horses etc by 30ft. 3k gold. So with these horseshoes, the wheels, and the bridle, you increase the speed of wagon by at least 40ft per round. If you also reducing the weight of cargo too, that makes the unloaded speed of the wagon 100ft per round (speed of horse + 40ft for extras)