PDA

View Full Version : Things to keep in mind for a sorc?



13_CBS
2007-08-07, 09:01 PM
Well, I'll be trying my hand at arcane spellcasting with a PbP game here (the dungeon of raving gnolls on crack, to be precise), but I'm not sure how to play a sorcerer well.

Crunch wise, the general theme is a blaster-batman mix, providing save or suck spells to start off battles and delivering artillery strikes at foes the tanks can't easily reach (archers, other mages, etc). The sorc is only level 3 right now. The char sheet is here: http://www.rpgwebprofiler.net/view.php?id=59167

Any critiques, suggestions, etc. crunch wise?

Damionte
2007-08-07, 09:14 PM
As a spell caster the Sorc is nice and simple to play. The limited spell casting flexibility is actually a boon if your not familiar with the casters or the spells in the PHB.

Your build is fine. You had outstanding stats to work with so didn't need to worry about sacrificing anything.

Only thing to keep in mind when playing a sorc is to spread out your spell choice to you're not a 1 trick pony at each spell level. You've done that just fine.

At each level i would try to pick at least 1 utility spell, 1 save or suck spell, and one damage spell.

Then just fill in the rest of your slots with whatever you think is neat.

PS: Personally I prefer Shield to mage armor.

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-07, 09:48 PM
PS: Personally I prefer Shield to mage armor.

Out of curiosity, why? Shield doesn't have nearly as long a duration, and you can pick up a mithral buckler fairly early on as per core rules with no arcane spell failure. You can't wear a Mithral Twilight Chainshirt without the DM allowing the Twilight enhancement, something much less likely to happen.

Chronos
2007-08-07, 10:18 PM
Mage Armor also has the advantage that you can cast it on others. Sure, everyone else in the party will probably have some armor anyway, but it'd be an improvement over the rogue's studded leather, and it comes in handy for "protect the NPC" quests.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with Ray of Frost. If you're that desparate for a couple points of damage, you can get better results with a thrown dagger or dart (both of which you're proficient with). I'd go with Ghost Sound, Light, or Mage Hand instead.

And your equipment list is pretty short, for my taste. You can get a lot of useful mundane equipment for cheap (some rope? A grappling hook? A bag of caltrops, some fishing line, firestarting materials, a knife, a hatchet? A first-aid kit, in case the cleric ever gets knocked negative?) And you've got a pretty good strength for a sorc, which gives you enough carrying capacity to haul it.

Damionte
2007-08-07, 10:25 PM
Because shield blocks magic missle, and doesn't have as many stacking issues. Most people have soem kind of armor, but not everyone usually carries a shield.

So i can still make use of things like bracers of armor, or myhtril light armor, things that make Mage armor almost useless except against spectral foes.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-08, 12:53 AM
As a third-level human character, you actually get three feats. One for being human, one as your first-level feat, and one as your third-level feats. I recommend Sculpt Spell if it is in your allowed books. It's a really useful metamagic feat that'll go nicely with any of your battlefield control spells (future spells to pick up that'll synergize well with it: glitterdust, grease, stinking cloud).

Magic Missile is pretty weak; at low levels, you get comparable damage with a bow or crossbow, and at higher levels, the damage doesn't actually matter (your opponents will have too many hit points). I'd replace it with a different 1st level spell at level 6. If you want to do a good amount of ranged damage to someone, pick up Scorching Ray as one of your 2nd level spells. You can even Empower it once you hit level 8.

One more good 1st level spell to look at is Ray of Enfeeblement, which would work nicely with your Empower Spell feat.

In general, you want to have a good selection of metamagic feats that compliment your spells known, and you want to pick spells that work well with your metamagic feats. It's all about synergy.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-08, 01:41 AM
Out of curiosity, why? Shield doesn't have nearly as long a duration, and you can pick up a mithral buckler fairly early on as per core rules with no arcane spell failure. You can't wear a Mithral Twilight Chainshirt without the DM allowing the Twilight enhancement, something much less likely to happen.

A wand of mage armor is cheaper.

Swooper
2007-08-08, 06:57 AM
For a sorcerer, I like taking the Arcane Preperation and Cooperative Spell feats from Complete Arcane, then going into Mage of the Arcane Order at 6th level. What? Don't give me that look. :smalltongue:

You look fine though. I'd personally delay taking Magic Missile till you can actually do something with it a crossbow can't, but hey. A hint you'll learn to appreciate, especially with arcane casters: Build for a prestige class(es). I've got a 25th level Transmuter that doesn't qualify for anything interesting. It feels like 20 wasted levels, since mages don't get anything except better familiars and, in the case of wizards, bonus feats, that they don't get with prestige classes. So page through CArc and CM if you have 'em, and find a class you like. Good ones include the aforementioned MotAO, Fatespinner (four levels only, but they're awesome), Archmage (for the higher levels) and Alienist (if you don't mind going loony and like summoning slimy things). IotSV, of course, reigns pretty supreme.

Balkash
2007-08-08, 07:03 AM
just wondering, maybe put acid orb in as one of your known 0 level spells. otherwise, looks alright to me

Swooper
2007-08-08, 07:34 AM
just wondering, maybe put acid orb in as one of your known 0 level spells. otherwise, looks alright to me
Acid Orb is a 4th level spell. Acid Splash, which I guess you're referring to, is utter crap and not worth a known spell. If you want to kill something, use a crossbow instead. Actually, use your warblade buddy. Failing that, maybe a crossbow, but Acid Splash is just about never a valid option.

Darrin
2007-08-08, 08:29 AM
Magic Missile is pretty weak; at low levels, you get comparable damage with a bow or crossbow, and at higher levels, the damage doesn't actually matter (your opponents will have too many hit points).


Comparable? I don't think so. A bow or crossbow requires an attack roll. Given the sorcerer's BAB/Dex/Feats, you can just break the arrows in half or shoot them, and it'll be hard to tell which is more effective. Also, at higher levels you're going to be running into creatures with Damage Reduction, which the force damage, although low, gets through rather nicely.

Yes, direct damage spells are non-optimal, but I'm not sure I'd call Magic Missle "weak" (the game designers actually considered it borderline broken at one point, mostly because it hits automatically, no save). It's a pretty reliable workhorse for early levels. Later on... I'm not sure what you'd swap it with, but the damage on Chill Touch scales up nicely.

Falrin
2007-08-08, 08:33 AM
Acid splash does Acid Damage = Utility.

Shoot al locks or other thingies with hardness you easily pass.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-08, 08:47 AM
Your HP need rolling - your 12 HP is an impossible number.

You should have 4 (first level is max) + 2d4 (levels) + 9 (3 x your con bonus, once for each level).

You'll get between 15 and 21 hp (18 average) this way.

Lord_Kimboat
2007-08-08, 08:54 AM
Magic Missile is pretty weak; at low levels, you get comparable damage with a bow or crossbow, and at higher levels, the damage doesn't actually matter (your opponents will have too many hit points). I'd replace it with a different 1st level spell at level 6. If you want to do a good amount of ranged damage to someone, pick up Scorching Ray as one of your 2nd level spells. You can even Empower it once you hit level 8.

One more good 1st level spell to look at is Ray of Enfeeblement, which would work nicely with your Empower Spell feat.

I'm not so sure about magic missile. Unlike ranged weapons it ALWAYS hits and is a force effect so it pretty much always does damage. Granted, I like scorching ray but there are a lot of things with DR against or immune to fire and that's where MM comes in.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-08, 09:28 AM
I'm going to chime in with the pro magic missile team. It's great for those times at low levels when nothing seems to be working.

"Fine. I cast magic missile at the damn thing!"

Catharsis may not be part of the game mechanics but it sure is worthwhile.

Lapak
2007-08-08, 10:13 AM
Failing that, maybe a crossbow, but Acid Splash is just about never a valid option.If you're taking a 1-level dip in Sorcerer for flavor or PrC qualification from a main class that gets a pile of Sneak Attack dice, it could be useful. Not the topic of discussion, but Acid Splash isn't completely useless.

Chronos
2007-08-08, 10:21 AM
Well, Acid Splash is definitely a better choice than the Ray of Frost he has listed now. Both are ranged touch attacks that do 1d3 damage, but acid damage is a lot more useful than cold damage (less creatures resist it, and it's full effectiveness versus items). Still, though, I wouldn't advise taking either. Once you get 2nd-level spells, though, Acid Arrow isn't bad for disrupting the concentration of enemy spellcasters for a few rounds.

Tyger
2007-08-08, 10:30 AM
What's with all the Magic Missile hate? There are times when its just the right spell. Its force damage, so when everyone else is ineffectively swinging their swords at that incorporeal creature, you hit. Guaranteed. Every time. Unless I am mistaken, it also completely ignores miss chances (via displacement and the like) and the damage is not too shabby.

Its not the most optimized spell choice, sure. But its great fun.

Overall though, other than the comments posted above, it looks like you are well on your way to a decent build and a fun character. Enjoy!

Swooper
2007-08-08, 10:33 AM
If you're taking a 1-level dip in Sorcerer for flavor or PrC qualification from a main class that gets a pile of Sneak Attack dice, it could be useful. Not the topic of discussion, but Acid Splash isn't completely useless.
Well, I did say almost never, didn't I? :smallwink: I can see extreme cases like this, although UMDing a cheap Wand of Acid Splash (pair it with a Wand of Grease and you're set for as long as those charges last! One sneak attack per round against a Grease'd target without 5 ranks in Balance, as a touch attack? Yes please!) is propably more effective though.
Also, yeah, I know, it works on items.. but I stick to my point that lots of other cantrips are better for spending known spells on as a sorcerer. Light, Mending, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Daze and Detect Magic are all ones I'd take before it, off the top of my head.

13_CBS
2007-08-08, 10:36 AM
Thanks for the tips guys! Keep 'em coming.

*Goes off to fix HP*

Leon
2007-08-08, 11:00 AM
Magic Missile: the Final Word in killing the darkness

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-08, 03:04 PM
Magic Missile is a waste. It's a damage spell that doesn't even do that much damage. I would say replace it with something more useful like Enlarge Person which ends up netting your party more damage and which improves your tank's efficiency.

I also agree with replacing Ray of Frost with Ghost Sound. With a bit of thought, this spell is useful for a character's entire career while 1d3 damage is almost never even remotely useful.

13_CBS
2007-08-08, 06:44 PM
Since I'm building this sorc as a batman-blaster mix, I think I'll go for MM for now. I definately will pick up Enlarge Person and Grease later, though.

Tyger
2007-08-08, 07:15 PM
Magic Missile is a waste. It's a damage spell that doesn't even do that much damage. I would say replace it with something more useful like Enlarge Person which ends up netting your party more damage and which improves your tank's efficiency.

Which is great if your opponents are easily hit critters that stay on the ground and allow your warriors to close. Then I agree 100%. But if they are incorporeal, have displacement, have unusually high ACs or fly... well then MM is going to outshine a lot of level 1 spells.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 08:00 PM
I'd consider going +0 LA Planetouched for the +2 bump to charisma and wisdom and other minor Aasimar bennies and being a planar human.

If you can use flaws and the game probably won't go past level 6 - 8.

Consider taking a Reserve Feat like Fiery Burst and the Precocious Apprentice feat with something like Scorching Ray which will give you an always on blasting power at 2D6 fire with a 5' radius as long as you have one single scorching ray available if you want to do a little blasting. Scorching Ray will become a bonus known spell at level 4 and is one of the best level 2 spells for meta. Fiery Burst can be powered up at level 6 with a Fire spell to 3D6.

I like Magic Missile but I'd consider delaying it a few more levels (5+ when you get 3 or more missiles good choice for swapping out with sleep (More range than Color Spray) leveling up).

Instead get something like Ray of Enfeeblement or Sleep instead (although you will need to trade Sleep out shortly as it is quickly becoming less effective) since most of your encounters should be under 4 HD so it is still pretty effective if you can drop a creature with it.

I like Shield and Mage Armor in an Abjurant Champion build. Going Battle Sorcerer lets you cast spells in light armor without ASF. Plus the D8 and other bennies for some spellcasting loss.

Shield works nice at lower levels in an inexpensive talisman at 300 GP 1/Day for 10 rounds.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-08-08, 08:05 PM
ya try for the aasmir, drop magic missle, and color spray, get silent image, it's almost broken good, make a wall, a darkness another view of your or even set a fake guard. And cause fear, mage armor is great keep it.

Make sure your dex is high and just keep out your light crossbow, its better damage than most at your level.

and pick up some levaitate scrolls.

13_CBS
2007-08-08, 08:11 PM
Hmm...aasimars aren't in the SRD, are they? I have access to literally no books.

Most of the people here seem to suggest dropping MM, so I'll do it.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 08:16 PM
Hmm...aasimars aren't in the SRD, are they? I have access to literally no books.

Most of the people here seem to suggest dropping MM, so I'll do it.

Check out the D20 SRD Hypertext document and monsters under P for Planetouched (Aaisimar and Tiefling). Normally a +1LA race/template if you go dual human/outsider your PC is affected by spells that effect both types but you get most of the bennies Dark Vision, +2 Char and Wisdom, Energy resistance, day light 1/Day as per PGtF.

Taking flaws for feats like Improved Initiative or other feats can be a good idea.

If not planning on PRCing a D20 SRD spellcaster can be a better choice than sorcerer since your PC will pick up bonus feats at 5, 10, 15 and 20.

puppyavenger
2007-08-08, 08:23 PM
While acid splash has one redeeming quality it is creation so you can save up acid for a nice alternitive to create water on the beegs head

Kurald Galain
2007-08-09, 10:09 AM
What book are the reserve feats from, again?

namo
2007-08-09, 10:48 AM
They appeared first in Complete Mage. There are some in the newer Complete Champion too.

Deth Muncher
2007-08-09, 11:23 AM
What book are the reserve feats from, again?

Pretty sure it's Complete Mage.

Miraqariftsky
2007-08-09, 11:54 AM
Magic Missile is pretty weak; at low levels, you get comparable damage with a bow or crossbow, and at higher levels, the damage doesn't actually matter (your opponents will have too many hit points).


Yes, but supposing that the sorc is in a spell duel and supposing that the opponent does not have Shield, then Magic Missile is a good bet for disrupting any long spells.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-09, 03:10 PM
Not really. At third level, it does all of 2d4+2 damage; that forces a concentration check of about 17, which means probably less than a 50% chance of disrupting their spell. And some DMs will rule this as two separate checks, one for each missile, each at DC 13-14.

Compare to Scorching Ray, which does 4d6 damage, and forces a Concentration check at DC 24 or thereabouts; sure, you have to hit, but that's not terribly difficult (it's just a touch attack), and you're almost certain to mess them up.

MM gains a bit of ground at level 5, but level 7, MM is finally up to 4d4+4, or a DC 24 check (or four DC 14 checks), while Scorching Ray is all the way up to 8d6, forcing either two DC 24 checks, or one check at DC 38.

It's true that direct damage spells are good for focing concentration checks from enemy casters (that's pretty much *all* that such spells are good for), but Magic Missile still doesn't do enough damage to be worth your time.

Clove
2007-08-09, 04:08 PM
You should swap Magic Missile back in later, or take it for your last 1st level spell. Alot of people here think it's not worth it, but you are a Sorceror. You will know a limited number of spells. Magic Missile is a specialty tool that will serve reliably in many situations.

Something I do is ask the DM if any of the enemies look like they are about to fall over. DMs will oftentimes make a face and tell the players if a monster/enemy took a hit and they are on their last legs. Magic Missile can be a guaranteed finisher.

Mirror Image can be a real pain for only a 2nd level spell. But if you have Magic Missile you can direct each missile at a different image. 5 missiles can pop 5 images instantaneously, 4 if you get unlucky and hit the enemy instead of an image. I think the maximum number of images produced is 8 (for a higher level caster), so you can strip away this crafty defense with brutal efficiency. The alternative is watching your melee buddies have multiple of their Power-attacking or Sneak Attacking swings miss. Or wasting a 3rd level spell to dispel it. :smallannoyed:

It's a force effect. Full damage vs. ghosts and incorporeal targets. I know this is not something you need all the time, but again. You are a Sorceror, so you need to pick up your utility when you can. It might as well be in a first level spell.

It's non-elemental damage. This is related to being a force effect, but this is relevant to corporeal monsters as well. Sometimes you just need to do some damage, and as you get higher level monsters and enemies in general start to have a laundry list of immunities. It's amazing how often Magic Missile is effective when so many other spells are useless.

It always hits the enemy, not your ally in the back. Magic Missile allows you to do precision damage without the risk of botching your attack roll and hitting an ally in melee with your target.

And finally, its first level! You don't have to give up a spell of ultimate power to have Magic Missile. It may be the suck at first level and it does less damage than your crossbow, you only have 3 spells a day, and every problem can be solved with a single round of combat... but later it's a great spell to whip out in key situations.

I'm not saying you have to cast it every day. But having it in your list can come in really handy in situations where many other spells are inappropriate.

Clove
2007-08-09, 04:17 PM
Oh yea, pick out a prestige class and work towards it. (like someone else says above) The only thing a Sorceror loses when he switches to a prestige class is the advancement of his familiar.:smallconfused: (You don't want that little jerk to be smarter than you anyways. The other people in your party start making jokes about who is the master. :smallamused: )

You don't have the class skills that a wizard does, so alot of the prestige classes are overly difficult for a sorceror to get because knowledge skills are not all class skills for Sorcs if I remember correctly. Except Knowledge Arcana I think. Skill Points are harder to come by as well, since Sorcerors often don't need the Intelligence that a wizard does. So planning is important.

Zeful
2007-08-09, 04:39 PM
If you work toward a prestige class that gives spells per day increases (ie. Eldrich Knight, Arcane trickster, Mystic Thereouge etc.) get arcane strike, you can throw away your effectivally useless higher level spell slots to get a +x to attack and +xd4 to damage (where x is the spell level sacrificed) you can only do this once per round but you need some use for those spell slots.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 04:40 PM
If you work toward a prestige class that gives spells per day increases (ie. Eldrich Knight, Arcane trickster, Mystic Thereouge etc.) get arcane strike, you can throw away your effectivally useless higher level spell slots to get a +x to attack and +xd4 to damage (where x is the spell level sacrificed) you can only do this once per round but you need some use for those spell slots.

Yeah. A Mystic Theurge with Arcane Strike. Brilliant.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-09, 05:07 PM
Letting Magic Missile pop Mirror Images like that is a nice house rule, but makes about as much sense as aiming for someone's eyes to blind them--the images are moving around, and can't be targeted specifically, no more than you can ignore them and target just the actual spellcaster.


I'm not saying you have to cast it every day. But having it in your list can come in really handy in situations where many other spells are inappropriate.
Sorcerers have seriously limited spell lists. If you've got a spell that's occasionally useful (and Magic Missile really isn't), then get it on a scroll, or in a wand.

The real problem with Magic Missile, though, is that you have to spend an action casting it, when you could be doing something that actually wins the battle, instead of doing next to no damage.

Zeful
2007-08-09, 05:09 PM
It's not a good option, only an example. Your better off
Fighter1/Sorc9/Eldrich Knight10
Beginning of the day:Extended Greater Magic Weapon (duration 38 hours) The durations overlap so when one runs out you don't worry.
Pre-battle: Extended or stilled Greater Invisibility and Extend/Still Fly
In battle: Arcane Strike with high level spell slots with your +14 equivilent bow (+9 worth of weapon enchantments flaming, seeking ect. +1 enhancement bonus bumped to +5 with GMW) and slaughter any mages that threaten the party and then work on the targets you can work with.

This might work with a Arcane Trickster builld but you need to place your levels differently.

13_CBS
2007-08-09, 05:10 PM
Hmm...people may want to keep in mind that I'm playing a sorc, and also that he's going to be part blaster.

But then again, he seems to be unemployed right now:smallfrown: The game I signed up for appears to be dead.

Clove
2007-08-09, 08:53 PM
Letting Magic Missile pop Mirror Images like that is a nice house rule, but makes about as much sense as aiming for someone's eyes to blind them--the images are moving around, and can't be targeted specifically, no more than you can ignore them and target just the actual spellcaster.


Sorcerers have seriously limited spell lists. If you've got a spell that's occasionally useful (and Magic Missile really isn't), then get it on a scroll, or in a wand.

The real problem with Magic Missile, though, is that you have to spend an action casting it, when you could be doing something that actually wins the battle, instead of doing next to no damage.

Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.

Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.

An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)

***

I highlighted key passages in the spell. It seems perfectly fine to use magic missile and select multiple targets. Note their own wording on choosing targetS. I've had DMs question Magic Missile's utility versus Mirror Image in the past and they are always won over when I show them the spell description.

Again, sometimes you don't need to do alot of damage to finish off an important target. An enemy cleric/monster/whatever with 10 hitpoints left who is in melee with your tank can heal-Himself/full-attack/escape on his next action... unless you tap in the last bit of guaranteed damage with Magic Missile.

The other thing is, if your party gets to rest 8 hours after every fight then you don't need to worry about endurance and running out of spells. Magic Missile is another resource to draw upon when the going gets tough.

Though I will agree that a 9th level Wand of Magic Missiles is a good option as well. It's not overpowering, but it's very economical on the moneypouch compared to other wands being a 1st level spell.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-09, 11:56 PM
Actually, the line I hadn't seen was:

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.
Which is very different from how I've seen MI used in play, but if the images are in static positions when it is not the caster's turn, then yeah, Magic Missile can take down several at once.