Sneak Attack + Divine Smite + Green-Flame Blade/ Booming Blade = Greatest nova dmg?

[Carlos Barreto]

Greetings,

Considering that Divine Smite and Sneak Attack are the two great sources of melee damage in the game, I was wondering if anyone here tried a multiclass like this:

Paladin 2/Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 18
Multiclass Spellcaster level 7

27 points buy

Strength 13 (5 pts)
Dexterity 15 (9 pts)
Constitution 14 (7 pts)
Int 8 (0 pts)
Wisdom 9 (1 pt)
Charisma 13 (5 pts)

No racial bonus above.

Now, let's take a look at the damage:

Rapier = 1d8 + Dex
GFB/BB = 3d8
Sneak Attack = 9d6
Divine Smite = 5d8

TOTAL: 9d6 + 9d8 +7 (Dex + Dueling Fighting Style) = Avg. 79
18d6+18d8 +7 (Dex + Dueling Fighting Style) = Avg. 151

Since this build only takes 2 non-rogue levels, it's fully funtional right out of level 1.

The only attribute you really need is Dexterity, so MAD isn't a problem. You have room for 2 feats (or 3 with Variant Human). You can dump Int and leave Str and Cha at 13 as requirements for Paladin multiclass.

The critical damage is impressive (and it requires just a single hit, not multiple hits), but the non-critical damage doesn't looks very impressive. Could it be the best build for melee nova damage? Is there something else that could be used to push this damage higher?

[Aett_Thorn]

I recently posted a similar idea here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530214-Max-Damage-with-a-Single-Attack


Basically, the best that the experts here were able to do was:


Aasimar gives it's level in damage, so 20... which can't be doubled on the Crit so... bugbear has a slightly higher Maximim but lower average. Good catch, I'll add that in to my maths.

-------
Bugbear Paladin 2/Assassin 17

**Equipment:
Purple Wurm Poison: 12d6
Oil of Sharpness +3
Vorpal Scimitar: 1d6+6d8+3

**Personal Abilities
Divine Smite: 2d8
Booming Blade: 3d8
Death Strike: Double all damage
Duelist Combat Style: +2
30 Dexterity (from Manuals): +10
Sneak Attack: 9d6
Bugbear Surprise Attack: 2d6
Trip Attack Maneuver: 1d6
Thunderous Smite: 2d6

**Help From Allies:
Valor Bard, Combat Inspiration: 1d12
Enlarge: 1d4
Crusader's Mantle: 1d4
Elemental Bane: 2d6
Contagion: Flesh Rot: Doubles all damage

**General Mechanical Effects:
Critical Hit: Doubles all dice rolled

-----
Puts us at...
(4d4+60d6+22d8+2d12+18)X4

A maximum roll of: 2376 Damage!

NOTE: I still need to go through the monster entries to see if any monsters might help boost that higher

[Easy_Lee]

You can build a one-dimensional character like this, but you're relying on that one cast of GFB / BB to hit. Rogues do better with an extra attack to confirm the hit.

[strangebloke]

I recently posted a similar idea here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530214-Max-Damage-with-a-Single-Attack


Basically, the best that the experts here were able to do was:

as an aside, she messed up her math a little bit there. For instance, I count 56d6 of damage there, not 60.

Anway, 14d6, 2d4, 6d8, 1d12, 11, and one 'double all damage' multiplier come either from allies or from equipment.

So a 'pure' build could deal only:

(30d6+10d8+7)X2

for a max of: 534
and a mean of: 314

[Citan]

Greetings,

Considering that Divine Smite and Sneak Attack are the two great sources of melee damage in the game, I was wondering if anyone here tried a multiclass like this:

Paladin 2/Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 18
Multiclass Spellcaster level 7

27 points buy

Strength 13 (5 pts)
Dexterity 15 (9 pts)
Constitution 14 (7 pts)
Int 8 (0 pts)
Wisdom 9 (1 pt)
Charisma 13 (5 pts)

No racial bonus above.

Now, let's take a look at the damage:

Rapier = 1d8 + Dex
GFB/BB = 3d8
Sneak Attack = 9d6
Divine Smite = 5d8

TOTAL: 9d6 + 9d8 +7 (Dex + Dueling Fighting Style) = Avg. 79
18d6+18d8 +7 (Dex + Dueling Fighting Style) = Avg. 151

Since this build only takes 2 non-rogue levels, it's fully funtional right out of level 1.

The only attribute you really need is Dexterity, so MAD isn't a problem. You have room for 2 feats (or 3 with Variant Human). You can dump Int and leave Str and Cha at 13 as requirements for Paladin multiclass.

The critical damage is impressive (and it requires just a single hit, not multiple hits), but the non-critical damage doesn't looks very impressive. Could it be the best build for melee nova damage? Is there something else that could be used to push this damage higher?
If you really want the best damage there is, I'd say the specific following would be much better (only official material).
Fighter 2
Paladin 2
Arcane Trickster 9
Draconic Sorcerer 7 (+CHA on fire damage) with Quickened and Heightened
Spellcaster level: 7+3+1 = 10

13 STR, 16 DEX, 16 CHA, bump CHA with ASI, take Alert or Warcaster or bump DEX for the reminder as you wish.

Normal nova
Quickened + Action Surge + Normal Action = 3 GreenFlameBlade on which you Smite + Sneak Attack (let's say DEX 16)
3*((1d8+3d8+2+DEX+CHA)+5d8) + 5d6 = 3*(9d8+10)+5d6 = 27d8+30+5d6, average 116,5+30+17,5= 164.

Ambush nova (you managed to hide, which you could do easily between Rogue and Sorcerer abilities).
Quicken Hold Person (with disadvantage on save roll) > Action Surge GFB > normal action GFB.
You are losing one instance of attack, but you get auto-crit on a hit (and advantage on the attack roll), so you are in fact getting more damage than 3 attacks since you double all damage dice. ;)

And if you don't care about Sorcerer's 4th level spell, you can ditch one level to get Battlemaster for Precision attack (on the fly to-hit bonus), or Devotion/Vengeance Oath (action economy to-hit bonus).
And if you don't care about Draconic's bonus either, you could take both. ;)

[Vaz]

What about Way of the Open Hand Monk? Or Anything which can cast Wish?

Insta-gibs.

[imanidiot]

Greetings,

Considering that Divine Smite and Sneak Attack are the two great sources of melee damage in the game, I was wondering if anyone here tried a multiclass like this:

Paladin 2/Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 18
Multiclass Spellcaster level 7

27 points buy

Strength 13 (5 pts)
Dexterity 15 (9 pts)
Constitution 14 (7 pts)
Int 8 (0 pts)
Wisdom 9 (1 pt)
Charisma 13 (5 pts)

No racial bonus above.

Now, let's take a look at the damage:

Rapier = 1d8 + Dex
GFB/BB = 3d8
Sneak Attack = 9d6
Divine Smite = 5d8

TOTAL: 9d6 + 9d8 +7 (Dex + Dueling Fighting Style) = Avg. 79
18d6+18d8 +7 (Dex + Dueling Fighting Style) = Avg. 151

Since this build only takes 2 non-rogue levels, it's fully funtional right out of level 1.

The only attribute you really need is Dexterity, so MAD isn't a problem. You have room for 2 feats (or 3 with Variant Human). You can dump Int and leave Str and Cha at 13 as requirements for Paladin multiclass.

The critical damage is impressive (and it requires just a single hit, not multiple hits), but the non-critical damage doesn't looks very impressive. Could it be the best build for melee nova damage? Is there something else that could be used to push this damage higher?

If UA is on the table I'd switch the Paladin levels for Warlock and take Moon Bow and Devil's Sight. That let's you go VHuman without losing Darkvision and lets you dump Strength to 8 and shore up your Wisdom.

With racial bonuses

Strength 8 (0 pts)
Dexterity 16 (9 pts)
Constitution 16 (9 pts)
Int 8 (0 pts)
Wisdom 12 (4 pt)
Charisma 13 (5 pts)

Long Bow = 1d8 + Dex
Sneak Attack = 9d6
Moon Bow= 6d8

You lose GFB/BB but you gain a bit of range and a lot of defense.

[Naanomi]

as an aside, she messed up her math a little bit there. For instance, I count 56d6 of damage there, not 60.
Maybe; I had back surgery at the end of the school year and was super high when making that post (and now).

Let's see...

1d6 Scimitar
12d6 Purple Wurm Poison
9d6 Sneak Attack
2d6 BugBear
1d6 Trip Attack
2d6 Thunderous Smite
2d6 Elemental Bane

29d6, doubled for a critical hit...

58d6; we were both wrong!

[Foxhound438]

I mean, pure pally with PAM gets to swing 3 times in the same 1 turn that that build gets to swing once, and they get:

2x(1d10+5+6d8) + (1d4+5+6d8) for an average of ~ 109.5 with no crits, and since it's obviously a vengeance pally they have advantage as easy as any rogue would. Throw in a pre-cast banishing smite and you get another 27.5 on top of that. You can argue that you're apt to miss one of those swings and do less, but ~ 100 with a miss is better than the 0 that a rogue would have.

[Vorpalchicken]

Best Nova I can think of is Wizard 18/ Fighter 2 with a tome of the stilled tongue or maybe just a scroll.

Meteor Shower. Action Surge. Meteor Shower. Then maybe stop concentrating on that delayed blast fireball you've been holding onto for 10 rounds.

Edit. Oops the tome uses a bonus action... guess you need a scroll

[vexedart]

Close... but i think animate objects coated in purple worm poison with action surge might be worse...

5th lvl slot gets... 1d4+4, +14d6 poison dmg...
For 62 average damage an attack... x10

Oh... don't forget the simulacrums x20.

Now they both action surge... x40.

Thanks Goku, I knew Kaio-ken existed somewhere in D&D5e.

2480 average damage, use foresight so you don't miss to much.
Oh wait it's not nova damage, it's per round until the spell expires.

If you save that 9th lvl slot for Animate Objects and so does your simulacrum, lets see 62x72.
4464 average damage if all hit.

Anyone got any better ideas? I'm sure this can get nastier with a bit more effort.

[Citan]

Close... but i think animate objects coated in purple worm poison with action surge might be worse...

5th lvl slot gets... 1d4+4, +14d6 poison dmg...
For 62 average damage an attack... x10

Oh... don't forget the simulacrums x20.

Now they both action surge... x40.

Thanks Goku, I knew Kaio-ken existed somewhere in D&D5e.

2480 average damage, use foresight so you don't miss to much.
Oh wait it's not nova damage, it's per round until the spell expires.

If you save that 9th lvl slot for Animate Objects and so does your simulacrum, lets see 62x72.
4464 average damage if all hit.

Anyone got any better ideas? I'm sure this can get nastier with a bit more effort.
Nop, sorry cannot work fully as you told.
You can count on Simulacrums to also cast it, doubling the number of objects.
But Action Surge is useless here, because animated objects get their own turn. So they will act AFTER your turn ends whatever happens otherwise. And since it's a concentration spell, you cannot stack it: using Action Surge to cast Animate Objects will immediately make the first end.

Still quite a good niche combo though (although you tend to count on all attacks hitting. Considering the AC of creatures usually fought at that level, I'd say it's overly optimistic). ;)


Best Nova I can think of is Wizard 18/ Fighter 2 with a tome of the stilled tongue or maybe just a scroll.

Meteor Shower. Action Surge. Meteor Shower. Then maybe stop concentrating on that delayed blast fireball you've been holding onto for 10 rounds.

Edit. Oops the tome uses a bonus action... guess you need a scroll
If you want to play with Delayed Blast Fireball then I'd say Sorcerer becomes a great competitor here: Wild Magic Sorcerer more precisely: Spell Bombardment* on an Extended Delayed Fireball ought to pack some serious punch (12d6+20d6). And you can make a Simulacrum do it by your side too (Wish > Simulacrum). ;)
And Sorcerer also gets Meteor Swarm, and can swap learned spell so you can go Sorcerer 18 / Fighter 2 and get everything. ;)
So in fact this build would beat Wizard high and dry. ^^

* I have a horrible doubt: I read Spell Bombardment as triggering on all dice that rolled the maximum number (like, you roll the 36d6, the 6 goes out on 4 of them, so you roll 4 more dice), would I be wrong? Because if it should be capped at one more die only, it's very lackluster...

EDIT: I'll ask here since it seems the linked thread is "dead": where is that "Death Strike" coming from plz?

[Aett_Thorn]

Death Strike is the Level 17 Assassin ability. I'm away from book right now, but googling it gives me the following info:

The Death Strike skill is "When you attack and hit a creature that is surprised, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, double the damage of your attack against the creature."

[Citan]

Death Strike is the Level 17 Assassin ability. I'm away from book right now, but googling it gives me the following info:

The Death Strike skill is "When you attack and hit a creature that is surprised, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, double the damage of your attack against the creature."
Oh my, how come I never memorized that in spite of having read PHB so many times?

I was half-expecting it to come from a recent UA or the like...
My bad, thanks for the reminder.

[Naanomi]

Oh my, how come I never memorized that in spite of having read PHB so many times?

I was half-expecting it to come from a recent UA or the like...
My bad, thanks for the reminder.
Incidentally I did reply and tell you that on the oroginal thread, it just was at the end of page one (the thread then went to page two and you missed the response I imagine)

[Citan]

Incidentally I did reply and tell you that on the oroginal thread, it just was at the end of page one (the thread then went to page two and you missed the response I imagine)
Oh, I'm sorry for that, I missed it indeed.

Well, at least now thanks to you all I see a valid reason to keep single class Assassin up to the end (or nearly). ;)

[Aett_Thorn]

Oh, I'm sorry for that, I missed it indeed.

Well, at least now thanks to you all I see a valid reason to keep single class Assassin up to the end (or nearly). ;)

Well, you still need to have surprise, which is never a guarantee. And they get to save. But when it works, it helps pack a punch. Lots of sneak attack dice, plus crit, and then double it all. Somebody break out the calculator!

[JAL_1138]

[any caster with Wish and Simulacrum]/Fighter 2. Simulacrum+Wish cheese, arbitrarily large number of simulacra all cast Fireball at 8th level, Action Surge and cast it at 6th level (you only have 1 7th-level slot with the Fighter 2 dip I think; I'm AFB), while you cast Meteor Swarm and Action Surge to either cast Fireball at 8th level or if you have one use a scroll of Meteor Swarm.

Damage amount is arbitrarily large, depending on how many Simulacra got made.

[Citan]

[any caster with Wish and Simulacrum]/Fighter 2. Simulacrum+Wish cheese, arbitrarily large number of simulacra all cast Fireball at 8th level, Action Surge and cast it at 6th level (you only have 1 7th-level slot with the Fighter 2 dip I think; I'm AFB), while you cast Meteor Swarm and Action Surge to either cast Fireball at 8th level or if you have one use a scroll of Meteor Swarm.

Damage amount is arbitrarily large, depending on how many Simulacra got made.
So you are saying that there is nothing in Simulacrum that prevent "chained use" (Simulacrum making Simulacrum of itself)?

*Goes check...*
*Comes back, nodding incredulously*
I can't find anything indeed that would prevent it by RAW (I just hope this would not be RAI as well).
Whether it's nor not legal by RAW, I would certainly ban it in my game (or make the Wizard's plan transpire over the world so he has basically everyone against him, whether NPC or player).

EDIT: Wait, there is!
Nowhere in the spell description does it say that the result of the spell would be a "beast" or "humanoid" (which IIRC does have a specific meaning in the context of rules). On the contrary, the description constantly refers to the specific word "simulacrum" and describes it as a "creature... partially real and formed from ice or snow".

So, because Simulacrum targets a humanoid or a beast, both made of flesh, you cannot chain Simulacrum... Unless I missed something?

[The Ship's dog]

I did this sort of thing when I saw both the UA Grave Cleric's ability and the UA Druid Circle of Twilight's ability. I also use the Protector Aasimar's Radiant Soul ability and a 9th level Inflict Wounds.

This is the math that I worked out (also, this combo can be pulled off with only a single person for set up):

So I'm not sure if the Harvest's Scythe damage would be double with a crit (pretty sure it would be) so I'll just do calculations factoring either outcome in. Math so that Harvest's Scythe is not doubled is:
(((11d10)*2)+20+9d10)*2
=((60*2)+20+49)*2 the 60 and 49 are 60.5 and 49.5 rounded down respectively
=(120+20+49)*2
=189*2
=378 total average damage on a single target, 40 Radiant, 338 Necrotic.
Or 660 total maximum damage.
40 Radiant, 620 Necrotic.

Math that makes Harvest's Scythe damage doubled is:
(((11d10+9d10)*2)+20)*2
=(((60.5+49.5)*2)+20)*2
=(((110)*2)+20)*2
=(220+20)*2
=240*2
Which equals a grand total of
480 average damage on a single target!
40 Radiant, 440 Necrotic.
Or 840 total maximum damage
40 Radiant, 800 Necrotic.

[vexedart]

So, because Simulacrum targets a humanoid or a beast, both made of flesh, you cannot chain Simulacrum... Unless I missed something?

It is because the simulacrum would target the original, not the simulacrum. However, this is some next level (old)cheese.

Good call on the action surge not working with Animate Objects call though.

Half of 4464 is still 2232 with the simulacrum of yourself, 1162 by yourself. Not bad for average damage roll, but you're right hoping to hit them all, even with advantage is quite low. But it isn't hard to get advantage either.

[JAL_1138]

It is because the simulacrum would target the original, not the simulacrum. However, this is some next level (old)cheese.

Right. Each Simulacrum uses Wish to create a Simulacrum of the original PC spellcaster, not of itself or another Simulacrum (the PC caster uses a 7th-level slot to cast Simulacrum normally, so that the Simulacra will all have a 9th-level slot to cast Wish with).

The exploit's been known for a while, but is generally ignored because it's so broken it's not even worth much discussion, like bringing up Pun-Pun in a 3.5 optimization thread. It's been banned/patched in Adventurers' League, but not in official errata yet.