Warder (Zweihander Sentinel/Dervish Defender) ECL6

[Nosta]

Race: Human
Class Warder (Zweihander Sentinel/Dervish Defender) ECL6

HP:88

Point Buy 20

STR(10)
Dex(16) (+1 Stat Bonus Added in)
CON(18) Base 16 (+2 Item)
INT(16) Base 14 (+2 Race Bonus)
WIS(10)
CHA(8)





Feats- What should I Change? House Rule Allows Me to Get Bonus Feat
For Taking Flaws (Up To Two)
LV(1): Weapon Focus (Long-spear )
LV(1) Two Weapon Fighting
LV(1) Combat Reflexes
Human: Spear Dancing Style
Flaw: Weapon Finesse
Flaw: Spear Dancing Spiral
LV(3): Riven Hourglass Style
LV3Warder: Martial Power
LV5: Deadly Agility




Items-
Belt: Belt of mighty con +2

Armor- +2 Chain-mail

Weapon: Long-Spear (+1 Fortuitous)

[mistermysterio]

have you looked here?

Warlord Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pcpBVliaTaUKlSHh93fkpPY8GC9IMjpwgLGco3ojx-o/edit)

Written by the designer himself. Has information specific to desperado as well... might want to check that out, if you haven't already.

Probably want to focus on maneuvers from solar wind and/or tempest gale

Halfling or Human are probably good choices for race... but any race with a dex bonus and possibly cha bonus would be good.

[mistermysterio]

Discipline Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k8AO1HL5H-BASvWdx3XsHfyTHHGdb0iBJHmt6cRmj_M/edit)

Here is a guide to the various disciplines.

Keep in mind that, at level 6, the highest maneuver level you can use is 3rd... so keep that in mind when deciding what maneuvers to learn.

[Nosta]

Updated for new build

[mistermysterio]

Zweihander Sentinel is a pretty nice archetype, though very different than your original choice.

If you want to focus in scarlet throne, you may want to use a sword. One of the discipline weapons in scarlet throne is heavy blades. Axes work for Iron Tortoise, but scarlet throne doesn't have axes as a discipline weapon.

Scarlet throne may not be the optimal choice for counters... you may want to look into mithral current (has a ton of good counters)... would need to use a martial tradition to access it, but it would probably be worth it (that, or go Bushi warder. I *think* you could have bushi and zwei archetypes together. As a bushi warder, you'd lose heavy armor proficiency, your level 3 bonus feat, and clad in steel, but you'd get quick draw, iaido, mixed combat, proficiency with katanas, and 2 types of bushido instead... all of which work well with mithral current).

*shrug*

[exelsisxax]

Flaws don't give you feats, so that's something you need to fix.

You also need to determine what this is supposed to do because "tank" isn't a thing in D&D. Do you mean BFC? killing things immediately? How much resources are you going to devote to counters you can use on allies? There's different approaches to all of these and they aren't necessarily incompatible, but they are in competition for limited build resources.

[Nosta]

Flaws don't give you feats, so that's something you need to fix.

You also need to determine what this is supposed to do because "tank" isn't a thing in D&D. Do you mean BFC? killing things immediately? How much resources are you going to devote to counters you can use on allies? There's different approaches to all of these and they aren't necessarily incompatible, but they are in competition for limited build resources.

as for the flaw to feat I should have stated it's a house rule.
and for what I want is someone that can take a lot of punishments in melee and deal a very good amount of DMG.

[Nosta]

Zweihander Sentinel is a pretty nice archetype, though very different than your original choice.

If you want to focus in scarlet throne, you may want to use a sword. One of the discipline weapons in scarlet throne is heavy blades. Axes work for Iron Tortoise, but scarlet throne doesn't have axes as a discipline weapon.

Scarlet throne may not be the optimal choice for counters... you may want to look into mithral current (has a ton of good counters)... would need to use a martial tradition to access it, but it would probably be worth it (that, or go Bushi warder. I *think* you could have bushi and zwei archetypes together. As a bushi warder, you'd lose heavy armor proficiency, your level 3 bonus feat, and clad in steel, but you'd get quick draw, iaido, mixed combat, proficiency with katanas, and 2 types of bushido instead... all of which work well with mithral current).

*shrug*

Well I want the scarlet throne more for flavor
But I want to use an Axe (Great Axe)
Any Disciplines used Axes besides Iron Tortoise?

[Ecliptic]

I believe axes only work for black seraph, iron tortoise, primal fury, and unquiet grave

If u use a heavy blade (falchion, greatsword, katana, elven curve blade), those work for cursed razoe, Eternal Guardian, Golden Lion, Iron Tortoise, mithral current, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, shattered mirror, and sleeping goddess

As you can see, many more options when u use a sword.

[Ecliptic]

Flavor-wise, scarlet throne and zweihander don't mix well... zweihander is about using a big 2 handed weapon as both offense and defense... scarlet throne is about dueling finesse with a 1 handed weapon (and no weapon in the offhand).

[Nosta]

I believe axes only work for black seraph, iron tortoise, primal fury, and unquiet grave

If u use a heavy blade (falchion, greatsword, katana, elven curve blade), those work for cursed razoe, Eternal Guardian, Golden Lion, Iron Tortoise, mithral current, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, shattered mirror, and sleeping goddess

As you can see, many more options when u use a sword.

I get that a sword gives more options but for my characters flavor I need an a great Axe

and what all pertains to unquiet grave I never heard of this one before

[Ecliptic]

Flaws don't give you feats, so that's something you need to fix.

You also need to determine what this is supposed to do because "tank" isn't a thing in D&D. Do you mean BFC? killing things immediately? How much resources are you going to devote to counters you can use on allies? There's different approaches to all of these and they aren't necessarily incompatible, but they are in competition for limited build resources.

With armiger's mark, warders become fairly tank-like... they can make enemies attack them or take penalties

[Ecliptic]

I get that a sword gives more options but for my characters flavor I need an a great Axe

and what all pertains to unquiet grave I never heard of this one before

Check it out in the discipline guide that mysterio posted.

[phlidwsn]

Remember, you don't *need* to use a discipline weapon to use a maneuver, though various feats and abilities may give you a bonus if you are using one.

[Nosta]

Remember, you don't *need* to use a discipline weapon to use a maneuver, though various feats and abilities may give you a bonus if you are using one.

well I am using a great Axe dew to the image I have saved for this character. its a Large Black knight with a Great Axe

I am thinking of mostly using the Tortoise and primal furry styles

[exelsisxax]

well I am using a great Axe dew to the image I have saved for this character. its a Large Black knight with a Great Axe

I am thinking of mostly using the Tortoise and primal furry styles

So one you put your other stuff back in this thread: why don't you use a bardiche? It's a waraxe, but it has reach and a better crit range, making it superior for a defensive build. Defensive reach doesn't give you actual reach, but a reach weapon does, and armament shield means you can attack adjacent at level 1, even for an AoO. Combine a reach weapon with a size increase like enlarge person for HUGE control. Add in primal fury stance and you'd have +3 sizes to the damage in total.

[Nosta]

So one you put your other stuff back in this thread: why don't you use a bardiche? It's a waraxe, but it has reach and a better crit range, making it superior for a defensive build. Defensive reach doesn't give you actual reach, but a reach weapon does, and armament shield means you can attack adjacent at level 1, even for an AoO. Combine a reach weapon with a size increase like enlarge person for HUGE control. Add in primal fury stance and you'd have +3 sizes to the damage in total.


ok that sounds good
with that said should I buy it as a +2 weapon or should I get it +1 and some enchantment?
I have 18500 to spend but also want armor and a stat booster

[exelsisxax]

Cloak of resistance +1, +1 or +2 armor, +1 weapon, wand of enlarge person(your rogue or caster friend can help you out). Depending on other junk you need like mounts or rations or loding etc, you might be able to add an amulet of natural armor +1 or the Fortuitous weapon enchantment before going broke. Fortuitous is great because it gives you an extra AoO if you make a successful AoO 1/round, and you'll be making a lot of those.

[Nosta]

Point 20
Race??? (Currently human)
Weapon of choice +1 Fortuitous Bardiche (willing to change if there is something better)
Armor: Full-Plate +2

Feats Are currently

House rule allows flaws for feats up 2 flaws for a feat for each one

Lv(1) Martial Power
Flaw(1) Shield Focus
Flaw(2) ????
LV(3) Iron Tortise Style
lv(5) Defensive Expertise

I am willing to change these if there are better ones.


Currently planning on using golden lion and iron tortoise

[Nosta]

Any one else have ideas?
I could really use the Help

FYI Switch to using Iron Tortoise For Defense
And Unquiet Grave for Debuffing

[phlidwsn]

I'd look at Martial Power, featwise. Tasty temp hp every round you hit.

[Nosta]

ok I Updated my build. I'd like some people to look over it and see how it can be improved

[mistermysterio]

1: with a dex build, you want a higher dex bonus. Go with breastplate instead of chainmail.

2: Why 2 weapon fighting? You're using a 2-hander?

3: Weapon finesse and Deadly agility are AMAZING together, but they only work with finesseable weapons - i.e. they do nothing with the longspear. You need to use a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain to gain any benefit from those 2 feats.

4: what disciplines/maneuvers are you planning on using? Iron tortoise? Primal fury? Riven hourglass? You're only going up to level 6... so you'd want to focus on one or 2 disciplines ONLY - don't spread yourself too thin!

5: You might want to consider a dex belt instead of con, with this build. Dex will increase your attack, damage, AC, and reflex saves. Con will boost HP and Fort saves (already high due to warder).

edit:

Noticed you went dervish defender AND zwei? Those two archetypes don't mix for many reasons. 1: Zwei focuses on 2 handed weapons, and dervish focuses on 1 handed weapons. 2: they both give up shields, so you can't use them together (can't exchange one thing twice).

Dervish gives up heavy and medium armor proficiency as well, so you couldn't use chainmail OR the breastplate, unless they're made of mithral. Regardless, this current build doesn't work on many levels. If you use a 2 handed weapon with dervish, you lose most of the benefits from the archetype - in other words, go dervish defender and 1-handed, finesseable weapons, or go Zwei with a sturdy 2 handed weapon (you could still focus on dexterity with Zwei, but you'd have to pick up proficiency with an elven curve blade and use that as your weapon)

[Nosta]

[QUOTE=mistermysterio;22218475]

How should My Stats look Then?


1: Breastplate Huh? Ok Sounds Good

2: TWF I Get From Dervish Defender and As For the spear I Took Spear dancing Style, this allows me To Treat said polearm or spear as a double weapon, using the weapon’s normal statistics for its main-hand end and the statistics of a light mace for its off-hand end.

3: I see what you mean how ever I Took Spear Dancing Spiral This Allows me To Use Weapon finesse with my Spear

4: Iron tortoise I loose do to Dervish Defender Primal furry is out for me Not what i want Riven hourglass is in and I get Scarlet throne so that would me my other. What Maneuvers would you suggest I take. Also I kind of want Iron Tortoise is there Any way for me to get it?

5 Dex Belt? Ok I can see that. your right it Dose give me more

[mistermysterio]

Alright... if you prefer dervish defender to zwei that's fine - just have to pick one or the other.

With dervish defender and spear dancing style and spiral, you should qualify for everything... however, you need to use light armor or you WON'T qualify for everything. Also, 2 feats just to be able to use spears seems like a bit of a waste - sure you wouldn't rather use two finesseable weapons, like kukri or something? Or, alternately, you could go with a zwei dex build and get the elven curved blade feat (so 1 feat instead of 2 for a finesseable dex weapon).

Two Weapon Defense*****: Int to AC (including Touch and Flat Footed) while TWFing in light armor and not using a shield bigger than a buckler. So basically free INT to AC for doing what you should be doing anyway. Definitely worthwhile.

So maybe pick up a mithral shirt or something... 4 AC plus 10 possible AC from dex for 1100 gold. Even a mithral breastplate, which counts as light armor, still counts as medium for proficiency sake (so you still wouldn't be proficient with medium armor)

Dex belt for sure.

You have to decide what disciplines to focus on, but dervish defender typically goes with thrashing dragon (2 weapon discipline). If you want riven hourglass, you'd have to use a martial tradition (giving up 1 current discipline for riven hourglass). You could use a martial tradition to gain iron tortoise, if you prefer.

[exelsisxax]

Spear dancing style is the style your build is based around, and you can only have one style active. Taking riven hourglass style is completely pointless even if you choose it instead of eternal guardian, which is a bad idea if you still want a "tank"

You can't use chainmail, because you can't use ANY medium armor at all except a mithril armored coat. Instead, get a mithril chain shirt and save money for armor that doesn't REDUCE your AC.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

A small dip in MoMS Monk would allow Spear Dancing+Eternal Guardian. If you start the build with it you even get all good saves!