Question: way of the 4 element [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Desteplo

2017-07-19, 04:46 PM

So aside from being the equivalent of a warlock style gish with 1-4 spells a short rest, what's the problem?
-would decreasing cost of spells by 1 solve the issue?

Clone

2017-07-19, 04:56 PM

There are a few issues with it from what I've seen, like the price of their abilities and the lack of options of said abilities.

Some "fixes" I've seen are giving the option of one or two of the Elemental Evil cantrips (Mold earth, shape water etc), providing two abilities per milestone rather than 1, and providing new options to mimic the Elemental Evil spells.

Ultimately they're still monks so you can decide to forgo the options if you'd like, but that defeats the point of picking an archetype.

PeteNutButter

2017-07-19, 04:57 PM

The costs are too high, so reducing them by one would help but the main problem is the default monk has plenty of need/use for ki. Compare it to the EK who gets a whole different set of spell slots for its subclass.

Also the spells are generally fairly weak for their level.

Bahamut7

2017-07-19, 07:48 PM

There is a player made revision to the e elements floating around on the internet that seemed to resolve all the problems.

Nifft

2017-07-19, 08:03 PM

There are a few issues with it from what I've seen, like the price of their abilities and the lack of options of said abilities.

Yeah, this is the crux of it.

Too few options, and those options are too expensive if you plan to use regular Monk abilities regularly (which you should).

Compare to the Shadow Monk, who gets:
- Level 3: learn one good cantrip and 4 spells, each of which cost 2 ki points to cast, and some of which can negate or avoid an encounter. You can use the cantrip all day without spending any ki points.
- Level 6: teleport all day without spending any ki points.
- Level 11: turn invisible without spending any ki points.
- Level 17: get extra attacks without spending any ki points.

Note the differences between that set of powers and the 4 Elements power set. The Shadow Monk has spells, and can pay Ki to activate those spells, but:
(a) Shadow gets as many spell choices at 3rd level as the 4 Elements would get at 17th level; and
(b) Shadow gets 4 abilities which don't cost any ki to use.

4 Elements Monk needs:
- More choices; and
- More things to do that don't cost ki.

There is a player made revision to the e elements floating around on the internet that seemed to resolve all the problems.

There are several.

Brawnspear

2017-07-20, 08:19 PM

4 Elements Monk needs:
- More choices; and
- More things to do that don't cost ki.

Agreed. My main issue with the 4 elements is the only costless thing they get is a cantrip, and none of their special abilities synergize with the base monk abilities since they're all action casts that don't trigger martial arts or enable flurry or anything like that.

We are going to be trying some themed free effects out. Basically cantrip level abilities that are slightly better than martial arts bonus action and worse than ki cost bonus actions, that can be used if you use the attack action, or as an action of their own.

Each monk would pick an element (earth air water fire) and they'd get a defensive and offensive bonus action.

Offensive would be a ranged save effect that had a rider and deals damage equal to martial arts die +wis: earth would cause some difficult terrain, water would slow, Air would push, fire would have some splash damage.

Defensive would be something like, create a 5ft high pillar that grants cover or wreathe your self in flames or move 5 ft without provoking attacks of opportunity or give nonmagical ranged weapons disadvantage to hit you.

Maybe let them choose another element at level 10 or something like that, I'm still fleshing it out.

PloxBox

2017-07-21, 05:20 AM

Agreed. My main issue with the 4 elements is the only costless thing they get is a cantrip, and none of their special abilities synergize with the base monk abilities since they're all action casts that don't trigger martial arts or enable flurry or anything like that.

We are going to be trying some themed free effects out. Basically cantrip level abilities that are slightly better than martial arts bonus action and worse than ki cost bonus actions, that can be used if you use the attack action, or as an action of their own.

Each monk would pick an element (earth air water fire) and they'd get a defensive and offensive bonus action.

Offensive would be a ranged save effect that had a rider and deals damage equal to martial arts die +wis: earth would cause some difficult terrain, water would slow, Air would push, fire would have some splash damage.

Defensive would be something like, create a 5ft high pillar that grants cover or wreathe your self in flames or move 5 ft without provoking attacks of opportunity or give nonmagical ranged weapons disadvantage to hit you.

Maybe let them choose another element at level 10 or something like that, I'm still fleshing it out.

though I'll admiti haven't seen many fixes for 4E monk, i like you're the most.

Aett_Thorn

2017-07-21, 07:53 AM

Could we combine Way of the 4 Elements Monk with the Wu Jen mystic a bit? Convert the prices of the more elemental-themed Disciplines into ki, and keep the level restrictions on number of ki you can spend on an ability at once.

At each level you'd get to pick a new ability, you could choose off of the 4E list, or go for another Discipline. The lack of ki compared to psi points would be a major limiting factor in using the higher-point abilities, but it would give you more flexibility in how you use your ki.

Citan

2017-07-21, 07:55 AM

So aside from being the equivalent of a warlock style gish with 1-4 spells a short rest, what's the problem?
-would decreasing cost of spells by 1 solve the issue?
Power wise, there is no problem at all. It's balanced as is.
It's just a matter of knowing how and when to use those specific abilities instead on spending Ki on normal Monk abilities, but that's the same problem for all disciplines.

Now, houseruling a 1 point decrease in cost spell shouldn't break anything either, so if you want feel free to do so.

Playstyle wise, a payer may be frustrated by having so few Discipline known, so an easy fix is to allow him to learn one more Discipline at each "step".
That's the only houserule I would recommend any and every time. :)

SharkForce

2017-07-21, 12:41 PM

as noted:

- costs are probably a bit high
- are you really a master of 4 elements if you can only do so few things? presumably, the idea is to capture the avatar <element> bending concept... but benders are very versatile. if they can only do a few things, then each of those things must be usable in a variety of ways.
- costs remove from your basic "be a monk" budget; using just about any 4e monk ability makes you less able to do other monk things. this is mostly a problem because:
- very few 4 elements monk abilities actually synergize with being a monk.

in contrast, as noted, look at the shadow monk; those spells they get generally synergize with being able to sneak around (which is well within a monk's wheelhouse), and where they are actions you would use in a combat at all, they're actions that focus on doing what monks do best; taking out the "artillery". meanwhile, their other abilities don't cost their action *or* their ki. bonus action teleport just gives them new mobility options, and while it interferes with flurry they're still able to use their regular action to attack (in contrast, you can't flurry or use martial arts bonus attack unless you use an attack action). so only some of the shadow monk abilities take ki away from your core monk activities, and even those tend to feel like you're doing what a monk should be doing.

so quick fix might be as simple as: elemental monk abilites cost less, and the ones that cost an action all allow you to use martial arts or flurry of blows to make bonus attacks. you'd still only be able to do a handful of things, but then again, i said it's a quick fix, not a comprehensive one :P

TheUser

2017-07-21, 12:43 PM

Power wise, there is no problem at all. It's balanced as is.
It's just a matter of knowing how and when to use those specific abilities instead on spending Ki on normal Monk abilities, but that's the same problem for all disciplines.

Now, houseruling a 1 point decrease in cost spell shouldn't break anything either, so if you want feel free to do so.

Playstyle wise, a payer may be frustrated by having so few Discipline known, so an easy fix is to allow him to learn one more Discipline at each "step".
That's the only houserule I would recommend any and every time. :)

People often forget that at each level that their disciplines increase they can also swap 1 for another.

Getting fireball and fly at level 11 makes a big difference for instance and I'm very unlikely to need shatter anymore. This also means you can swap out elemental attunement at level 6 which most players don't a) know or b) do.

nickl_2000

2017-07-21, 12:53 PM

If you haven't read about Kryx's Monk revision you should. I love the idea of it, and would love to be allowed to play it.

Brawnspear

2017-07-22, 12:32 PM

though I'll admiti haven't seen many fixes for 4E monk, i like you're the most.

Thanks! We'll actually have our first test of it tonight, if my player remembers they have the abilities :D. I just wanted to give them some options without tweaking the balance too much. We shall see how it works out!

utopus

2017-07-22, 12:46 PM

I would recommend checking out reddit's /r/boh5e. It's a curated homebrew subreddit, and one person reworked the Wot4E subclass to make it more competitive compared to other classes, and more fun to play

Creyzi4j

2017-07-22, 01:57 PM

FistbofbUnbroken Air and Water Whip is prettt nice.
Getting both of them means you are pretty flexible on what to use. Got a nasty rogue opponent with really high DEX saves? Use fist of unbroken air on it (coz it's a STR save)

Other big bosses like dragons seem to have low dex saves. So you could use that water whip instead of fist

Tanarii

2017-07-22, 03:09 PM

SharkForce

2017-07-22, 04:50 PM

Citan

2017-07-22, 04:56 PM

No. The costs are right in the money. If you assume the Monk will spend 1/2 of his Ki on generic monk abilities, and 1/2 on Four Elements abilities, they are exactly scaled as 1/3 casters.

The problem is twofold:
1) they need to spend a significant amount of Ki that would otherwise be used on general monk abilities, 1/2 of it. Open Hand and Shadow Monks dont.
2) unlike 1/3 casters, they don't get anything else to go along with it. Elemental Attunement is flavorful, but far too weak for the only cost-free ability. EKs and ATs get cantrips and lots of useful abilities on top of their casting.

The problem is reducing costs just means they can spam more fireballs or whatever, making them far more powerful than the 1/3 caster they are supposed to be. So you can't do that to fix #1.

What you can do is add a butt-load of minor useful abilities on top of their 'casting'. Something that enhances some of their normal use of Ki (similar to Open Hand) would might be the first place to start. Then something to add better 'cantrip' abilities wouldn't go amiss.

Some of the best solutions I've seen involve the EE cantrips. That's a good start for addressing issue #2. But it doesn't really address issue #1
The homebrew class I made (but never had time to finish unfortunately) built on that idea of mixing elements directly with weapon attacks.

So I'd say a direct, not overboard fix would be to expand on the Fire Snake Fangs idea and allow Elemental Monk to change the type of his weapon attack's damage to any elemental, during the whole turn, for one Ki, using the "free interaction" time. Gives something that directly synergizes with Monk being a martial, makes him better and provides motivation to analyse enemy's weaknesses.

OR, give him "manoeuver-like", once/turn effect on unarmed strike for 1 ki: push 5 feet away (wind), deprives reaction (water - ice around limbs), extra damage or disadvantage on next attack/check (fire -burning hampering focus), reduced speed (earth -extra weight) that lasts until the end of enemy's next turn. More powerful, still not breaking anything (obviously a save is required), but provides fluff options that cost less than official disciplines (in ki and action economy).

Beyond that, allow Monk to choose one cantrip among Mold Earth, Shape Water, Gust and Control Flames (EE cantrips that cannot directly deal damage) and make him one more each step so he ends with all of them.

Tanarii

2017-07-22, 05:18 PM

yeah, the fact that they scale exactly as 1/3 casters, but do so by scaling 1/2 on ki... and gain absolutely none of the abilities that 1/3 casters gain to combine the two parts... that makes them work worse than other 1/3 casters.
Agreed. I used to argue that they were 1/3 so that's that and they're fine. But enough threads discussing this topic brought me to understand exactly where the problem lies.

They do have the advantage over other 1/3 casters in they can effectively double their 'spells per day' by spending all their Ki on Elemental effects if needed, at the cost of not using their base abilities at all. Or not spend anything on them if they aren't needed and base Ki abilities are more. And that kind of flexibility is not without value. But I can see now that probably doesn't really balance things out.

EdenIndustries

2017-07-22, 06:46 PM

Agreed. I used to argue that they were 1/3 so that's that and they're fine. But enough threads discussing this topic brought me to understand exactly where the problem lies.

They do have the advantage over other 1/3 casters in they can effectively double their 'spells per day' by spending all their Ki on Elemental effects if needed, at the cost of not using their base abilities at all. Or not spend anything on them if they aren't needed and base Ki abilities are more. And that kind of flexibility is not without value. But I can see now that probably doesn't really balance things out.

This is quite true. Consider that at level 11 they get access to Fireball (1/3 casters don't get 3rd-level spells yet) and can cast it twice per short rest, and three times per short rest at level 12! 1/3 casters can only dream of nine Fireballs a day at level 12, and in a lot of ways that probably makes even 1/2 casters jealous! Now granted, that's all your ki. Even so...that's a healthy amount of Fireballs!

Desteplo

2017-07-22, 06:59 PM

They can also dump all their Ki in whater whip, unbroken fist and fire snakes. 21d10 save is harsh

SharkForce

2017-07-22, 07:07 PM

This is quite true. Consider that at level 11 they get access to Fireball (1/3 casters don't get 3rd-level spells yet) and can cast it twice per short rest, and three times per short rest at level 12! 1/3 casters can only dream of nine Fireballs a day at level 12, and in a lot of ways that probably makes even 1/2 casters jealous! Now granted, that's all your ki. Even so...that's a healthy amount of Fireballs!

you mean they can be a crappier warlock because their spells are not scaled up to level 5 eventually (and they also get them later than the warlock) and they won't ever get any level 6+ spells at all, and they lack the invocations of the warlock so that after blowing their resources on spell slots that are crappier than a warlock would get, they're left with at-will abilities that are also worse than a warlock has?

gee, i wonder why people might think there's a problem...

EdenIndustries

2017-07-22, 07:45 PM

SharkForce

2017-07-22, 08:20 PM

Well Warlocks are full casters (equivalently). If the idea is that the Way of the 4 Elements Monk scales along with a 1/3 caster, it doesn't really seem meaningful to try comparing them to a full caster.

it does if you're going to burn all the resources they have (and which they need to fulfill their base class abilities effectively) on acting like a spellcaster.

warlocks get more spells available, better spell slots, more abilities that don't cost spell slots, and arguably better damage when no resources are in play as compared to a 4 elements monk who is trying to act like a warlock (it's actually pretty close in damage between levels 5 and 11, but the warlock is doing that damage from range). now, if blowing all their resources on damage left them as competent in their base class as, say, a battlemaster fighter who has expended all superiority dice, or an eldritch knight who has run out of spell slots, no problem. the base fighter, even without any archetype abilities, is going to have good consistent damage and survivability and fairly impressive burst damage thanks to action surge. but a monk with no ki is not like a fighter without superiority dice. apart from level 1-3 (when they get easy access to a bonus action attack and most others have nothing like that yet, with the possible exception of variant humans), monk damage is not that good. and with no ki, their base class abilities are not doing much either; no bonus action disengage, dash, or dodge. no flurry of blows. no stunning blow.

so if the monk is going to give up on being an effective monk in order to gain mediocre spellcasting, there's a problem. the eldritch knight isn't going to be jealous for very long once they realize how useless the monk after blowing all their ki on fireball spells.

EdenIndustries

2017-07-22, 08:23 PM

it does if you're going to burn all the resources they have (and which they need to fulfill their base class abilities effectively) on acting like a spellcaster.

warlocks get more spells available, better spell slots, more abilities that don't cost spell slots, and arguably better damage when no resources are in play as compared to a 4 elements monk who is trying to act like a warlock (it's actually pretty close in damage between levels 5 and 11, but the warlock is doing that damage from range). now, if blowing all their resources on damage left them as competent in their base class as, say, a battlemaster fighter who has expended all superiority dice, or an eldritch knight who has run out of spell slots, no problem. the base fighter, even without any archetype abilities, is going to have good consistent damage and survivability and fairly impressive burst damage thanks to action surge. but a monk with no ki is not like a fighter without superiority dice. apart from level 1-3 (when they get easy access to a bonus action attack and most others have nothing like that yet, with the possible exception of variant humans), monk damage is not that good. and with no ki, their base class abilities are not doing much either; no bonus action disengage, dash, or dodge. no flurry of blows. no stunning blow.

so if the monk is going to give up on being an effective monk in order to gain mediocre spellcasting, there's a problem. the eldritch knight isn't going to be jealous for very long once they realize how useless the monk after blowing all their ki on fireball spells.

Well I don't necessarily agree, but I also don't really care enough about the 4 elements monk to spend more time on it. You win! :smallsmile:

djreynolds

2017-07-23, 12:40 AM

So aside from being the equivalent of a warlock style gish with 1-4 spells a short rest, what's the problem?
-would decreasing cost of spells by 1 solve the issue?

You must short rest and make it a priority. That is what you have to do when playing a battlemaster, warlock, or any monk.

Let them run off and tell them you are short resting for 1 hour

If you short rest twice a day, it isn't bad.

We have an elemental monk at our table, used water whip to trip up a giant. There is no size requirement for the water whip and it is a dex save. Theoretically you could prone a dragon.

Now the question is whether a way of the 4 elements monks could benefit from elemental adept with fangs of the fire snake and spell sniper

Citan

2017-07-23, 02:51 AM

you mean they can be a crappier warlock because their spells are not scaled up to level 5 eventually (and they also get them later than the warlock) and they won't ever get any level 6+ spells at all, and they lack the invocations of the warlock so that after blowing their resources on spell slots that are crappier than a warlock would get, they're left with at-will abilities that are also worse than a warlock has?

gee, i wonder why people might think there's a problem...
You are on a trend these times SharForce...
Comparing a martial class with impressive mobility, defense and various panel of offense (before even starting blowing ki) with a fullcaster that usually has to spend quite a few abilities to protect himself (granted, fortunately, Patron do give him short-rest ones) but still stays extremely frail in comparison...

Gee, I wonder why people might think there's a problem... Indeed. Obviously making stupid comparisons -or supposing a Monk would be stupid about how to blow his resources- doesn't help at all.

Kryx

2017-07-23, 04:47 AM

No. The costs are right in the money.
Yup, the costs align with the DMG's spell point system. Reducing the costs would throw the balance of the spell system out of wack.

The issue is the monk's core features are not aligned with that system. Stunning Strike costing 1 ki is madness. The monk doesn't do sufficient damage and that feature is often cited as the main function of a monk (at the cost of all other features imo). The stunned condition only occurs on Contagion (after a bunch of saving throw failures), as an 8th level spell to a target with 150 hit points or fewer, on a few monsters (illithid), and another high level effect or two.
Stunning Strike being so readily available to a 5th level monk at such a low cost is absolutely breaking with the balance of the game. While Stunning Strike costs 1 ki no other ki options can be competitively priced as everything will be judged against that. "Should I cast this spell for 5 ki, or should I attempt stun the boss 5 times?" In terms of efficiency the second option is almost always far superior.

Monks have as much ki as a half caster has effective spell points assuming the game's expected adventuring day. Comparisons to EK level casting or Warlock level casting is misplaced. See Caster Comparison (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJAnGX7qgsPqpXv3h76QGGn5vmPgjU1bCzU-7kgBjvw/edit#gid=2077828504) at the end for those numbers.

If you haven't read about Kryx's Monk revision you should. I love the idea of it, and would love to be allowed to play it.
Thanks man! I'm glad you appreciate all the work I put into that rework. If anyone else is curious check out my houserules (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxGh_mU9ihaPbXMtclcwWTlsM1U). Monk starts on page 56 and includes many elemental archetypes (changes are discussed on page 23).

SharkForce

2017-07-23, 06:41 PM

You are on a trend these times SharForce...
Comparing a martial class with impressive mobility, defense and various panel of offense (before even starting blowing ki) with a fullcaster that usually has to spend quite a few abilities to protect himself (granted, fortunately, Patron do give him short-rest ones) but still stays extremely frail in comparison...

Gee, I wonder why people might think there's a problem... Indeed. Obviously making stupid comparisons -or supposing a Monk would be stupid about how to blow his resources- doesn't help at all.

when it fits, they will be compared. the monk's high mobility and survivability is only relevant if it has some ability to cause significant harm. for a monk with no ki, that isn't the case. so if we're claiming the 4 elements monk is supposed to just blow all ki on spells (ie act like a spellcaster), leaving them completely ineffective at doing anything else, i'm going to compare them to other classes that do the same thing.

i didn't bring up the idea that the 4 element monk being able to go full-blown into casting spells was an advantage. so don't complain to me that it's where the discussion went.

if, on the other hand, people want to continue to work from the assumption that the monk is not supposed to turn into a pure spellcaster when entering the 4 elements subclass, i'll continue to compare it to other subclasses that add spellcasting... which it compares unfavourably to as well (though not as poorly as it does at being a spellcaster). and where the problem still remains; without ki, a monk is pretty useless. yes, they're hard to kill (though actually, a significant amount of their survivability also uses ki). no, that isn't enough to mean anything the vast majority of the time. it usually just means you get to sit there and watch helplessly while everyone else gets wrecked, because you can be safely ignored.

Kane0

2017-07-23, 08:06 PM

The elements monk gains abilities that don't mesh well with standard monk MO while at the same time using the same resources. Its a conflict of interest that makes things difficult.

Lots of things can be done about that:
- Adding to that resource pool to reduce competition (eg. Add Wis mod to Ki Pool)
- Altering costs to increase efficiency (ie reduce Ki cost)
- Changing mechanics to not all draw from the one place (either by altering options to be free or giving a separate pool to use them)
- Adding additional options to bring it all together (like adding EE cantrips and other little bonuses)

There are quick and dirty fixes, complete houserule/homebrew overhauls and everything in between available, and all of them are perfectly valid approaches*
*Provided all at the table agree that such changes are fun and fair.

Citan

2017-07-23, 09:48 PM

when it fits, they will be compared. the monk's high mobility and survivability is only relevant if it has some ability to cause significant harm. for a monk with no ki, that isn't the case. so if we're claiming the 4 elements monk is supposed to just blow all ki on spells (ie act like a spellcaster), leaving them completely ineffective at doing anything else, i'm going to compare them to other classes that do the same thing.

i didn't bring up the idea that the 4 element monk being able to go full-blown into casting spells was an advantage. so don't complain to me that it's where the discussion went.

if, on the other hand, people want to continue to work from the assumption that the monk is not supposed to turn into a pure spellcaster when entering the 4 elements subclass, i'll continue to compare it to other subclasses that add spellcasting... which it compares unfavourably to as well (though not as poorly as it does at being a spellcaster). and where the problem still remains; without ki, a monk is pretty useless. yes, they're hard to kill (though actually, a significant amount of their survivability also uses ki). no, that isn't enough to mean anything the vast majority of the time. it usually just means you get to sit there and watch helplessly while everyone else gets wrecked, because you can be safely ignored.
It compares better you mean...
Sure, at low levels, Shadow has better resource consumption than 4E, but it's only utility and requires concentration (which Monk can lose easily if careless at that level)0. Sun Soul has lesser cost for Burning Hands than 4E but no other option for AOE. Open Hand has lesser cost than 4E for push/prone but its lesser efficient too.

4E has more versatility than Shadow, Sun Soul and Open Hand all united when getting the next "step" of Disciplines, and yet again when getting level 11 then 17.

When you actually compare what a 4E can bring, you realize there is absolutely no problem: 4E has his own niches, whether in utility or in control, which nobody else can do (same as Long Death, which has his own unique niche with the Fear).
Among which...
- Using Stunning Strike from a safe distance.
- Having sure-ways to deal damage, EVEN ON A FAIL.
- Creating alternative paths or covers through water shaping.
- Pushing/Pulling people over great distances.
- Having several AOE options in shape, type and range.
- Having a unique way to infiltrate or the best ever mobility.
- And at the highest level, having some of the best battlefield control spells a non-fullcaster may ever get.

One could argue that apart from Long Death with its Fear (putting aside Friendly Fire problem), 4E has the best built-in options for teamplay, even if obviously any Monk can be a great teamplayer in the proper hands.

Really the only thing you can argue is that because most of abilities cost more compared to other archetypes, 4E should know more Disciplines to compensate. I guess WoTC just decided on a rule that "each archetype must have no more than X special abilities at each level" or something like that. And that's the only houserule I would always implement: allowing a player to know 4 starting Disciplines.

Also, "without ki", unless player is pretty stupid, would always occur before rolling Initiative. So, while it's only true at the very end levels, a Monk is never "useless": he's a very strong threat because dealing 3 attacks with advantage, being very hard to target and resistant to damage. Definitely not a creature you could ignore.

Saeviomage

2017-07-23, 10:42 PM

The problem is basically that taking 4 elements monk adds some portion of caster, but removes some portion of basic being-a-monk.

I think that might be fine, except that the 4 elements partial caster is really poor, primarily because of it's limited spell selection which bars all the spells that might be synergistic, and the limited known spells.

I think they become much better if you open up the spell list. Adding all the spells from the druid of the land's terrains seems like a good thematic selection.

Tanarii

2017-07-24, 09:39 AM

Lots of things can be done about that:
- Adding to that resource pool to reduce competition (eg. Add Wis mod to Ki Pool)
- Altering costs to increase efficiency (ie reduce Ki cost)

I agree there is a conflict of interest in having to use Ki to power Elemental abilities. But IMO neither of these work as a Fix. The former might if the additional Ki must be used on non-elemental abilities. The latter doesn't, because it supercharges Elemental abilities and makes it easier to spam them, as opposed to making non-elemental Ki abilities better.

If you want to reduce Ki costs of the elemental abilities, there needs to be a cap on how often you can use the abilities. Or something. Otherwise they become better than 1/3 casters, which appears to have been the design intent of the path.

Lolzyking

2017-07-24, 10:35 AM

You can't treat them as just casters, All ki points before becoming a 4e monk belong to the monk base class, ergo they are all base class resources, not caster resources, becoming a 4e monk lets you cast with your base class resources. Both of the 1/3rd casters gain a pool of spell slots to use for their spells, without detracting from their main class. It'd be like rogue having to lose 1/2 its sneak attack dice to become a trickster, or fighter never getting its 3rd and 4th extra attack.

Getting -1 to costs and the 1 cost ones becoming cantrips of sorts for the 4e monk would be nice. the costs of the spell like abilities of sun and shadow monk make this obvious.

Getting 2 more known at start and gaining 2 per bump would be better because comparing it to battle master and their maneuvers, and the 1/3rd casters and shadow monks.

If you want to play a magic monk you are better off doing a small dip into cleric anyway, you actually gain spell slots and thematic abilities.

Tanarii

2017-07-24, 11:36 AM

You can't treat them as just castersThe problem is the 'caster' side is balanced in terms of resources, assuming 1/2 of Ki spent. So things that change to make them get more resources on that side of things, such as reducing the cost, doesn't fix the problem. It just makes them less balanced on the 'caster' resources side.

SharkForce

2017-07-24, 02:13 PM

It compares better you mean...
Sure, at low levels, Shadow has better resource consumption than 4E, but it's only utility and requires concentration (which Monk can lose easily if careless at that level)0. Sun Soul has lesser cost for Burning Hands than 4E but no other option for AOE. Open Hand has lesser cost than 4E for push/prone but its lesser efficient too.

4E has more versatility than Shadow, Sun Soul and Open Hand all united when getting the next "step" of Disciplines, and yet again when getting level 11 then 17.

When you actually compare what a 4E can bring, you realize there is absolutely no problem: 4E has his own niches, whether in utility or in control, which nobody else can do (same as Long Death, which has his own unique niche with the Fear).
Among which...
- Using Stunning Strike from a safe distance.
- Having sure-ways to deal damage, EVEN ON A FAIL.
- Creating alternative paths or covers through water shaping.
- Pushing/Pulling people over great distances.
- Having several AOE options in shape, type and range.
- Having a unique way to infiltrate or the best ever mobility.
- And at the highest level, having some of the best battlefield control spells a non-fullcaster may ever get.

One could argue that apart from Long Death with its Fear (putting aside Friendly Fire problem), 4E has the best built-in options for teamplay, even if obviously any Monk can be a great teamplayer in the proper hands.

Really the only thing you can argue is that because most of abilities cost more compared to other archetypes, 4E should know more Disciplines to compensate. I guess WoTC just decided on a rule that "each archetype must have no more than X special abilities at each level" or something like that. And that's the only houserule I would always implement: allowing a player to know 4 starting Disciplines.

Also, "without ki", unless player is pretty stupid, would always occur before rolling Initiative. So, while it's only true at the very end levels, a Monk is never "useless": he's a very strong threat because dealing 3 attacks with advantage, being very hard to target and resistant to damage. Definitely not a creature you could ignore.

well, let's examine those for a moment:

- "safe distance" of what, exactly? i mean, what is it safe from? i've never found 15 feet to be what i would consider a safe distance, personally, so if you're talking fangs of the fire snake, i have to disagree. (also, a regular monk could do this with a whip, no added ki cost or crappy archetype required). still as 4 elements abilities go, this one is shockingly well-designed compared to the rest, and makes me wish they did better with the others, because at least it interacts with monk abilities. it doesn't eat their bonus action, and they still do monk things with it. if it was a bit more versatile in what element you could use, or maybe just lasted a bit longer (and had counterparts from other elements), i think it would be just about right.
- ability do deal surefire damage is a lot less impressive when spending nothing can give you a 90% or higher chance of dealing damage. also, it still takes away from being a monk; you're spending the resource you need to be an effective monk, and you're spending your action not doing monk things. if it didn't cost ki (note: i'm not saying it should be free, just that it should cost something other than ki) and counted as an attack action (so you could still do monk things like martial arts or flurry), or if the archetype just let you make an attack the way the fighter partial spellcaster archetype does, it would probably be fine.
- it's an interesting ability, sure. i'm not entirely certain there's a ton of situations where i'd find it worth giving up being a monk to do it. the main problem is really how situational it is, though... i've actually been in a game recently where something like this would've been pretty handy. but i think it's the only game i can remember where it would have been very useful, and there's still the fact that you're not really being a monk while you do this.
- hmm... i'm gonna assume you mean you're pushing/pulling people more than usual rather than that you're doing it to someone who's particularly far away. the thing is, you're looking at 2 abilities out of 5 that the monk gets, they cost a pretty hefty chunk of ki out of the monk's base resource pool, and the monk isn't doing monk things while using these abilities. also, a grappler can move someone 15 feet without spending resources from level 1. the monk does it from the great distance of 30 feet away, i suppose, but the grappler has a lot more control over direction, and doesn't need to spend anything to do it again next round.
- woah, we're talking like you're spending all of your abilities and ki on this and nothing but this, and to make use of it on anything like a regular basis, well... let's just say if this is your plan, i'm going to refer you back to warlock, which probably does this schtick better.
- monks already have excellent mobility, and flight isn't that hard to get at higher levels. plus, you're going to need someone else to get the rest of the party to wherever you infiltrate anyways.
- uhhhh.... no. they don't have anywhere near the best battlefield control spells a caster could get. they don't have anything like banish, or wall of force. no hypnotic pattern, or entangle, or transmute rock, or mass suggestion, etc. they get none of the best ones, really.

oh, and the ki on initiative roll is only at level 20, so most people will never see it, and is also a ridiculously low budget for one fight.

I agree there is a conflict of interest in having to use Ki to power Elemental abilities. But IMO neither of these work as a Fix. The former might if the additional Ki must be used on non-elemental abilities. The latter doesn't, because it supercharges Elemental abilities and makes it easier to spam them, as opposed to making non-elemental Ki abilities better.

If you want to reduce Ki costs of the elemental abilities, there needs to be a cap on how often you can use the abilities. Or something. Otherwise they become better than 1/3 casters, which appears to have been the design intent of the path.

you'd still be taking away from the base class ki budget.

if they have more caster, it only comes by having less monk. they don't need the same limits unless we're actually giving them the same extra resources; an eldritch knight has fairly limited spell slots, but every last one of those spell slots is in addition to being a fighter. they don't cast fireball or haste and then lose one of their extra attacks.

Lolzyking

2017-07-24, 04:44 PM

The problem is the 'caster' side is balanced in terms of resources, assuming 1/2 of Ki spent. So things that change to make them get more resources on that side of things, such as reducing the cost, doesn't fix the problem. It just makes them less balanced on the 'caster' resources side.

If 4 elements monk is a 1/3rd caster sub class, to make up for it It should give 1/3rd additional caster resources to be fair.

Ki was never a caster resource, Ki was the monk classes original resource, The 1/3rd caster sub classes of fighter and rogue don't eat up action surge or Sneak attack die, so the 1/3rd caster class of monks shouldn't eat up ki. A 1/3rd caster is the equivalent bonus of 7/8 (less on slots, but more generous on cantrips known) caster levels to a class.

Its a net gain to the class because they gain abilities that don't directly interact with their base class features, these abilities also don't interfere, compete with or hinder the base class.

A monk without archetyes is equal to the fighter without archetypes, but the second a fighter gets EK and Monk gets 4e, the resource balance is way in favor of the EK.

Also if 1 ki = 1 spell point a 7th level caster ( a 1/3rd caster) has 38 points of spell points, pretty unfair to monks right, 4e should practically double their Ki pool to match the casting abilities of EK and AT.

Tanarii

2017-07-24, 05:01 PM

2 out of 3 monk sub-classes use Ki, to different degrees, to do their schtick. So it's debatable to call Ki as somehow 'belonging' to the base class.

That's different from saying using it means you can use the base abilities less. That's true, and the degree that the Four Elements monk uses Ki is rather extreme. But if your re-design goal is to make it easier for the players to use their Ki for their base abilities, decreasing the cost of the Four Elements abilities doesn't meet that goal. Instead it makes it easier for players to use the Four Elements abilities. The behavior you'll encourage in players is spamming those abilities more often, not using their base abilities more often.

Desteplo

2017-07-24, 05:16 PM

Well, if you are just spamming fireball with 1 less Ki. Instead of 5 times you can cast it 6 times at 20 with 2 leftover Ki. So the bigger more impact spells aren't as big of an issue

-and the lower lvl spells with less impact to the game go from 6 to 10. In that case, people are more inclined to use those spells. it presents it as a feature. You can hold person and flurry the following turn, etc. without using all the Ki. it would give more utility for the lower lvl spells and still in most cases leave some extra wiggle room for the monk abilities.

Citan

2017-07-24, 05:24 PM

well, let's examine those for a moment:

- "safe distance" of what, exactly? i mean, what is it safe from?

From opportunity attacks obviously, it's sad I have to spell it to you: 4E is the only Monk that can push even more movement (better reach = less movement) and still make melee attacks, on which he can apply Stunning Strike. So, better practical reach = better positioning = better efficiency. You could of course just use a ki on Disengage, but it's far less efficient (unless your opponents are resistant to fire damage ^^).
Also, talking about whips is pretty stupid: Monk is not proficient in it so he's have to multiclass or spend a feat, and even then, it's not a Monk weapon so no Martial Arts benefit (and it's still 10 feet, which is still "within reach" of OA of several big creatures. 15 feet isn't).

- ability do deal surefire damage is a lot less impressive when spending nothing can give you a 90% or higher chance of dealing damage. also, it still takes away from being a monk; you're spending the resource you need to be an effective monk, and you're spending your action not doing monk things. if it didn't cost ki (note: i'm not saying it should be free, just that it should cost something other than ki) and counted as an attack action (so you could still do monk things like martial arts or flurry), or if the archetype just let you make an attack the way the fighter partial spellcaster archetype does, it would probably be fine.

It's very funny how you grab some great numbers out of nowhere. 90%, really? You are not supposed to blow ki on small fry in the first place. Also, you can actually choose how high the minimum damage will be. It's like having a single-target Magic Missile: high cost in resources comparatively, but still ensures that this bleeding enemy will indeed be dead before his next turn comes.

- it's an interesting ability, sure. i'm not entirely certain there's a ton of situations where i'd find it worth giving up being a monk to do it. the main problem is really how situational it is, though... i've actually been in a game recently where something like this would've been pretty handy. but i think it's the only game i can remember where it would have been very useful, and there's still the fact that you're not really being a monk while you do this.

Well, there is no solution for that, it's the kind of abilities that have to be given some occasions to shine by the DM, much like Ranger's Favored Terrain or Enemy abilities.
Unless you have a Wizard/Cleric pal, but that is a niche among niches. ^^

- hmm... i'm gonna assume you mean you're pushing/pulling people more than usual rather than that you're doing it to someone who's particularly far away. the thing is, you're looking at 2 abilities out of 5 that the monk gets, they cost a pretty hefty chunk of ki out of the monk's base resource pool, and the monk isn't doing monk things while using these abilities. also, a grappler can move someone 15 feet without spending resources from level 1. the monk does it from the great distance of 30 feet away, i suppose, but the grappler has a lot more control over direction, and doesn't need to spend anything to do it again next round.

Yeah, agreed, it's costly, no argue on that, but the effect is great too. You get 3-in-1 provided the save fails: push/pull 20+ feet, knock prone, deal damage. That's why it takes an action: you just gave advantage to your melee friends, dealt damage, and probably made the creature unable to reach the squishies on its next turn (provided those friendlies are smart enough to get at least 15-20 feet away from the front line). At low level, it makes a big difference.

- woah, we're talking like you're spending all of your abilities and ki on this and nothing but this, and to make use of it on anything like a regular basis, well... let's just say if this is your plan, i'm going to refer you back to warlock, which probably does this schtick better.

Not at all. NOT. AT. ALL. I'm saying on the contrary that while Sun Soul sticks with Burning Hands, a Monk can either diversify by taking several different AOE, or just "upgrade" the one AOE ability he wants to have for when nobody else is available for blasting. And since you talk about the Warlock, notice that if the latter obviously trumps in power, until level 11, Monk has the edge on opportunity. Sometimes the Warlock would like to blow only a "2nd-level" worth Burning Hands, or a stat Fireball, but he can't. The 4E can adapt the resource consumption to only spend what's really necessary.
But that's not saying a Monk should spend everything on blasting. It's exactly as the Eldricht Knight (except better usually since I see so many people advising EK to dump INT): Burning Hands is just one more tactical option to consider in some situations.

- monks already have excellent mobility, and flight isn't that hard to get at higher levels. plus, you're going to need someone else to get the rest of the party to wherever you infiltrate anyways.

Yes, flight is hard to get. Unless you have a caster pal who is ready to spend his concentration on you and others by upcasting Fly or casting Wind Walk.
And by RAW, the Monk's bonus speed applies to the fly speed, as strange as it may sound fluff-wise.
While other Monk may divert obstacles through other ways (high jumps, long jumps, teleport) there are more limited or require some setup to be usable. Fly means you get 80 feet of movement in three dimensions, so you can much more easily bypass covers, traps or just protectors of your target. And they can much more easily maximize the potential number of creatures hit by an AOE spell as well.

- uhhhh.... no. they don't have anywhere near the best battlefield control spells a caster could get. they don't have anything like banish, or wall of force. no hypnotic pattern, or entangle, or transmute rock, or mass suggestion, etc. they get none of the best ones, really.
you'd still be taking away from the base class ki budget.

Good thing I never talked about a FULL SPELLCASTER. I talked about options they got compared to all other casters. And among those, Wall of Fire and Wall of Stone are in the top five of all those an Eldricht Knight, Arcane Trickster or Paladin/Ranger could get.
And it's really not a problem it eats at the base class ki budget, since it's about a spell that lasts one full minute and can greatly affect how the battle is managed.

oh, and the ki on initiative roll is only at level 20, so most people will never see it, and is also a ridiculously low budget for one fight.

Yeah, it's sad it's a capstone, but it's absolutely not a ridiculously low budget for one fight. Either get Empty Body, or keep it for saves, or blow a nova Stunning Strike... I mean, getting out of ki for a tough fight is probably part of your own mistake anyways. So at least you have some compensation lot for your lack of wisdom.

if they have more caster, it only comes by having less monk. they don't need the same limits unless we're actually giving them the same extra resources; an eldritch knight has fairly limited spell slots, but every last one of those spell slots is in addition to being a fighter. they don't cast fireball or haste and then lose one of their extra attacks.
Yeah, but they don't get all those other features Monk gets, and they are fairly lesser effective at casting until they get Eldricht Strike too.
And there is still a strong trade involved, the economy one, which is exactly the same for both.
I get that people are puzzled that Monk has to eat at the same resource for different things, but that's exactly the same for a fullcaster (which has usually nothing meaningful besides cantrips/spells barring some archetypes) or Paladin (autodamage or spell). It's not a bug, it's a (meaningful) feature.
I understand people don't like it, but I don't see it as a problem personally.

Lolzyking

2017-07-24, 06:44 PM

All I'm saying is to treat 4 element monks as a 1/3rd caster you have to balance it so they get the same amount of usage out of those features that a AT or EK gets per adventuring day.

The big issue is in Organized play and home games is that Short rests don't get used often enough for monks to feel they can safely afford their overcosted spells.

Per long rest a 4th level EK fighter with thunderwave can cast it three times, A monk can cast it twice and this costs all his ki, no ki for other monk stuff. Meanwhile the fighter still has all of his other resources.

Per long rest a 8th level fighter can cast thunderwave 4 times and Shatter 2 times, A monk can cast thunderwave 4 times OR shatter twice and thunderwave once.

the pattern keeps going 3rd casters have more casting power than monks at equal levels, and Don't have to use competing resources.

if the monk gets short rests it has the potential to outdo 3rd casters but most parties will opt to long rest unless the DM is forcing some kind of timeframe.

Desteplo

2017-07-24, 06:58 PM

Saeviomage

2017-07-24, 07:03 PM

if the monk gets short rests it has the potential to outdo 3rd casters but most parties will opt to long rest unless the DM is forcing some kind of timeframe.
I don't think that this assumption is correct. Short rests tend not to be a big deal unless there is a time pressure. Maybe the dungeon reinforces select parts from other parts, or some treasure gets locked away. A long rest means external reinforcements arrive, or the BBEG evacuates, or major plans progress etc.

And that's ignoring the typical guidance to a DM that there should be 2 short rests in a day.

If you're really skipping them all the time, then the monk was already weak, regardless of his subclass.

Tanarii

2017-07-24, 07:04 PM

All I'm saying is to treat 4 element monks as a 1/3rd caster you have to balance it so they get the same amount of usage out of those features that a AT or EK gets per adventuring day.Absolutely. And btb they do if they spend 1/2 their Ki on Elemental Features, in comparison to spells per day.

What they don't get is the equivalent of cantrips, and other features. And their 'spells' take away from their base features.

The big issue is in Organized play and home games is that Short rests don't get used often enough for monks to feel they can safely afford their overcosted spells.That's a DM issue, not a design issue. If the DM is ignoring the design intent, then the DM needs to fix that first.

(And IMX this wasn't typically isn't an issue in organized play.)

Lolzyking

2017-07-24, 07:13 PM

Absolutely. And btb they do if they spend 1/2 their Ki on Elemental Features, in comparison to spells per day.

What they don't get is the equivalent of cantrips, and other features. And their 'spells' take away from their base features.

That's a DM issue, not a design issue. If the DM is ignoring the design intent, then the DM needs to fix that first.

(And IMX this wasn't typically isn't an issue in organized play.)

your mileage varies from mine, almost all of the Dm's I play with in AL punish the use of short rests by giving the enemies surprise rounds in the next combat or failing some time related objective, also most classes get their toys back on a long rest and short rest characters have to fight tooth and nail to get them to short rest (except when there is no healer and they want to get health back)u

But yeah that's a fair point about If you get the short rests, but unlike AK and ET you don't get features and you don't get cantrips.

I feel like general arguement against a 4e buff is that 4e = 1/3rd caster in strength but they clearly don't.

SharkForce

2017-07-24, 08:32 PM

From opportunity attacks obviously, it's sad I have to spell it to you: 4E is the only Monk that can push even more movement (better reach = less movement) and still make melee attacks, on which he can apply Stunning Strike. So, better practical reach = better positioning = better efficiency. You could of course just use a ki on Disengage, but it's far less efficient (unless your opponents are resistant to fire damage ^^).
Also, talking about whips is pretty stupid: Monk is not proficient in it so he's have to multiclass or spend a feat, and even then, it's not a Monk weapon so no Martial Arts benefit (and it's still 10 feet, which is still "within reach" of OA of several big creatures. 15 feet isn't).

It's very funny how you grab some great numbers out of nowhere. 90%, really? You are not supposed to blow ki on small fry in the first place. Also, you can actually choose how high the minimum damage will be. It's like having a single-target Magic Missile: high cost in resources comparatively, but still ensures that this bleeding enemy will indeed be dead before his next turn comes.

Well, there is no solution for that, it's the kind of abilities that have to be given some occasions to shine by the DM, much like Ranger's Favored Terrain or Enemy abilities.
Unless you have a Wizard/Cleric pal, but that is a niche among niches. ^^

Yeah, agreed, it's costly, no argue on that, but the effect is great too. You get 3-in-1 provided the save fails: push/pull 20+ feet, knock prone, deal damage. That's why it takes an action: you just gave advantage to your melee friends, dealt damage, and probably made the creature unable to reach the squishies on its next turn (provided those friendlies are smart enough to get at least 15-20 feet away from the front line). At low level, it makes a big difference.

Not at all. NOT. AT. ALL. I'm saying on the contrary that while Sun Soul sticks with Burning Hands, a Monk can either diversify by taking several different AOE, or just "upgrade" the one AOE ability he wants to have for when nobody else is available for blasting. And since you talk about the Warlock, notice that if the latter obviously trumps in power, until level 11, Monk has the edge on opportunity. Sometimes the Warlock would like to blow only a "2nd-level" worth Burning Hands, or a stat Fireball, but he can't. The 4E can adapt the resource consumption to only spend what's really necessary.
But that's not saying a Monk should spend everything on blasting. It's exactly as the Eldricht Knight (except better usually since I see so many people advising EK to dump INT): Burning Hands is just one more tactical option to consider in some situations.

Yes, flight is hard to get. Unless you have a caster pal who is ready to spend his concentration on you and others by upcasting Fly or casting Wind Walk.
And by RAW, the Monk's bonus speed applies to the fly speed, as strange as it may sound fluff-wise.
While other Monk may divert obstacles through other ways (high jumps, long jumps, teleport) there are more limited or require some setup to be usable. Fly means you get 80 feet of movement in three dimensions, so you can much more easily bypass covers, traps or just protectors of your target. And they can much more easily maximize the potential number of creatures hit by an AOE spell as well.

Good thing I never talked about a FULL SPELLCASTER. I talked about options they got compared to all other casters. And among those, Wall of Fire and Wall of Stone are in the top five of all those an Eldricht Knight, Arcane Trickster or Paladin/Ranger could get.
And it's really not a problem it eats at the base class ki budget, since it's about a spell that lasts one full minute and can greatly affect how the battle is managed.

Yeah, it's sad it's a capstone, but it's absolutely not a ridiculously low budget for one fight. Either get Empty Body, or keep it for saves, or blow a nova Stunning Strike... I mean, getting out of ki for a tough fight is probably part of your own mistake anyways. So at least you have some compensation lot for your lack of wisdom.

Yeah, but they don't get all those other features Monk gets, and they are fairly lesser effective at casting until they get Eldricht Strike too.
And there is still a strong trade involved, the economy one, which is exactly the same for both.
I get that people are puzzled that Monk has to eat at the same resource for different things, but that's exactly the same for a fullcaster (which has usually nothing meaningful besides cantrips/spells barring some archetypes) or Paladin (autodamage or spell). It's not a bug, it's a (meaningful) feature.
I understand people don't like it, but I don't see it as a problem personally.

- a stunned enemy shouldn't be making opportunity attacks anyways. considering how many monks go for mobile, opportunity attacks are even less of a threat. still, as i said, i consider fangs of the fire snake to be one of the best designed 4 elements monk abilities. it's very close to where it should be, which is more than i can say for most of the others.

- if you prefer a bit more precision, against most enemies you should have around a 60% hit rate, plus or minus a bit... we'll assume a hard-to-hit opponent, so 45% instead. by the time level 5 has been reached, a monk can easily get 3 attacks per round if desired. the odds of not hitting at least once are around 84% which i think is pretty danged good, and not that far off of the 90% i threw out. apart from the most extreme situations (very low level against very high AC), you should have a pretty good hit chance, and you have the ability to make enough attacks that at least one will probably hit. especially by the time you get fireball or better, you're going to be dealing damage against danged near anything in most rounds unless you or your DM are doing something very weird.

- it's fine to have niche stuff in a general sense. the problem is, ultra-niche abilities aren't really what you should be handing out when you're only granting a handful of options. it's good design for a wizard or druid spell to be useful on rare occasions because they can know lots of spells and change them as needed. it's bad design for the 4 elements monk, because they have few abilities that they gain and they can't change them easily.

- expensive is part of the problem. but it also involves not being a monk for that round. as i've said elsewhere, this could be relatively simple to solve; if 4 elements monk was something like the eldritch knight then you could use your martial arts bonus action attack (or even flurry) to kick someone and then send them flying with fists of unbroken air, or drag someone to you and punch them when they arrive using water whip. that would be way more interesting. and of course, not costing so much would be a big help. but it isn't just one problem that plagues the archetype, there's a whole bunch of them.

- if the monk isn't maintaining multiple AoE options, they don't have the advantage in opportunity. and, as usual, we run into the typical problem that while blasting, the 4 elements monk isn't acting like a monk. the sun soul isn't more accepted just because the blasts are better, but also because the blasts interact with them being a monk. a sun soul monk can use burning hands as a bonus action, which means they still have their action for doing regular monk stuff. a 4 elements monk trades away doing regular monk stuff for being a spellcaster who is getting way lower level spells than a proper spellcaster.

- wall of fire and wall of stone top 5 control spells for eldritch knights? honestly, i doubt eldritch knights *have* a top 5 for control spells (they don't get enough spells in general to dedicate 5 spells to control most likely), but if they do, i doubt those would make it (particularly wall of stone, which they can't cast obviously). something where they can take advantage of the ability to force disadvantage on a single saving throw is much more valuable; hypnotic pattern, banishment, maybe even hold person (the target can try to save later, but only if they aren't dead from all the critical hits they just took). or alternately, spells that they can force a target into over and over (evard's tentacles, grease, web, etc). by the time wall of fire is an option, the fighter is probably looking for more than 5d8 damage save for half (against probably some fairly low DC) against anything they want to use crowd control on, in any event... it might serve for clearing out large numbers of trash mobs, i suppose. maybe even a damage boost against harder targets to some extent (shoving a target into a wall of fire won't be a damage boost for all fighters, but i could certainly imagine some builds, even "optimized" builds, where it is). but if i want control, i want something a little less "soft control" than that before i'm going to make it top 5 anything.

- a typical adventuring day should have between 2-3 encounters per short rest... more often 2 than 3. which means 6-10 ki per encounter for a reasonable ki budget. at level 20, 4 ki is not a reasonable budget. it's obviously better than nothing, but 4 ki is really low if you want to contribute meaningfully.

- the 5e base fighter doesn't get the *same* abilities a base monk gets, but they most certainly get abilities. extra attack more often than anyone else, action surge, second wind, combat style, armour proficiencies, even the bonus feats (or ASIs, i suppose)... especially if you're comparing this to a base monk that has no ki left, the fighter is looking great. and yes, the fighter has to wait a bit for action economy to not compete as much... but that's the thing, they do reach that point. there is never a time where 4 elements monk casts a spell and then does monk things, but that happens for an eldritch knight.

Tanarii

2017-07-25, 09:22 AM

But yeah that's a fair point about If you get the short rests, but unlike AK and ET you don't get features and you don't get cantrips.

I feel like general arguement against a 4e buff is that 4e = 1/3rd caster in strength but they clearly don't.
As I said up thread, it used to be a general argument I made. The reason it's not the complete picture was pointed out to me. Or more accurately bludgeoned into my dense skull repeatedly until I understood. :smallwink:

It's still relevant, in that many people don't seem to understand that (for example) a level 6 Four Elements Monk is only expected to spend ~3 Ki per Short Rest, or 9 per Long Rest (the equivalent of 3x2nd level spells), to be on par with the Long Rest spell slots of an EK or AT. (The comparison is done using Spell Points variant.) Many people just don't understand how SR based resources translate into LR resources.

But even once that's been addressed as on par, these other issues remain:
1) sucky cantrip equivalent ability
2) no other free use features
3) using the '1/3 casting' draws on the same 'spell point' pool as base-class abilities.

Phelan Boots

2017-07-25, 11:50 AM

Desteplo

2017-07-25, 12:17 PM

I posted my proposed 4E fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528511-Fixing-the-Four-Elements-Monk) in the home brew forums and never got any feedback.

The big problem as I see it with the 4E is that they're a 1/3rd caster that don't get any special features. Their spells are their features, it's as if you were playing an EK and instead of war magic or weapon bond, you get to choose a spell.

The changes I made do make the 4E a bit more powerful, but at the cost of being even more reliant on all of the Monk's stats.

I have too. Though mine is less spell based and models the sun soul monk a little more

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526781-5e-way-of-4-element-(nearly-spell-less-wisdom-based-monk)-looking-for-feedback&p=22076285#post22076285