Favorite non-standard system [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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AceOfFools

2017-07-20, 07:55 AM

CharonsHelper

2017-07-20, 08:13 AM

*WARNING - BLATANT PLUG*

Any chance you're willing to take a gander at a swashbuckling space western which is still in a beta state - Space Dogs RPG? :smallwink:

kebusmaximus

2017-07-20, 09:09 AM

Have you tried GURPS? It can do all of those if you do a bit of research.

For science fantasy, I've heard good things about FFG's star wars games, though I don't have any personal experience with them.

Also, are you willing to get into horror games? Call of Cthulhu does retro sci-fi horror very well, and Dark Heresy is pulpy science fantasy horror, but has a specific setting.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 09:35 AM

I'd love to do something steampunk, bronze age, space opera, or science fantasy.

Looking at these, I find Victoriana is an interesting mixture of D&D style fantasy with Steampunk (similar blend to Shadowrun, without 'the magic comes back'), and the classic Space Opera game would be Traveller.

Traveller has the problem in that PCs are pretty much always 'dudes', and generally in their fourties to sixties, unlike most Space Opera protagonists who tend to be in their twenties to thirties and extremely skilled. You won't find Captain Kirk coming out of character creation, characters will be closer to those in Foundation (although generally less skilled then them). My solution to that is to just increase the free skill points characters get at the end of character creation.

Victoriana is a game set in a Victorian era like ours, but with alternative religions based around an Order versus Entropy universe, D&D races having evolved as human subspecies, and with steampunk technology just about to set off. It's interesting, but if you want pure steampunk I recommend looking elsewhere (I hear Space 1889 is good).

I can't really help for bronze age stuff, the earliest game I own is for iron age Celts, and I don't like science fantasy enough to have picked up any systems for it.

LibraryOgre

2017-07-20, 11:43 AM

Airk

2017-07-20, 11:59 AM

There are like a million different steampunk systems, but the problem is that no one agrees on what's involved in a "steampunk" game. Steampunk is an aesthetic more than a genre.

Bronze Age, likewise, isn't a super useful descriptor. Do you mean Egypt? Mesopotamia? Greece? Korea? These are pretty different.

While I'm nitpicking, does your vision of Science Fantasy run more towards Star Wars, or Thundarr the Barbarian? Or does anything that mixes high tech and "magic" count?

Space Opera is the most well defined genre in your list, but sadly, I've yet to find an RPG that I feel does it very well.

So now that I'm doing complaining about the specifics of your request, I will give you my favorite nonstandard fantasy game:

Tenra Bansho Zero (http://tenra-rpg.com/)

TBZ is a Japanese game that does for Japanese "fantasy" sortof what original D&D did for Western fantasy - namely, include everything the designers could think of. Ninjas? Yes. Buddhist Monks? Yes. Shinto Priests? Yes. Onmyoji? Yes. Giant Mecha piloted by innocent children? Gotcha covered. Cyborg soldiers? Yes. People who get supernatural powers thanks to hosting "insects" inside their bodies (http://i.imgur.com/sKTjH4X.png)? Check. World that is basically Sengoku Japan only with insane killing technology? Yup. but that's just the gonzo setting. It's the game that really makes it good.

What does it do, I hear you ask? Well...

Streamlined character creation... - Yeah, yeah, this is something you'll find in a lot of places, but it ties into a lot of other stuff. Tenra uses an "archetype" based approach where you pick a couple of templates to smoosh together to get your basic concept. Want to be a half-oni ninja? Grab the templates for half-oni and shinobi, or maybe apprentice ninja. Also want a cool art of war? Grab the paragon template too. But each template gives you Karma so be careful not to take too many... (more on this later)
...with built in drama - each template brings with it a Fate. Fates are basically... issues. Stuff your character cares about, generally to their detriment in some way. And you pick two from the ones presented by your templates (or talk to the GM and make your own if you've got a cool idea. The ones on the template are just the sorts of things you might find that sort of character caring about.) That half-oni/ninja/paragon above? Choice of Emotion: Half-Oni inferiority complex, Emotion: Yearing for Freedom, and Goal: Know true strength.
The Karma cycle propels the drama. Play up one of your fates, or do something awesome, and other players at the table reward you with Aiki chits. Between acts, Aiki becomes Kiai - Power, that you can use for bonus dice and the like - and you get more of it if you have stronger Fates. But spending Kiai earns you Karma. Get too much Karma, and you go mad and become a soulless Asura. And you can only have high Fates if you have high Karma. And the way you get rid of Karma is to resolve your Fates. So playing to fates provides Aiki, which becomes Kiai, which becomes Karma, which you remove through your character's emotional growth.
The reverse death spiral. The more injured you are, the more bonus dice you get. Bleed for what you believe in!
The Dead Box. There's a box on the character sheet marked 'Dead'. Unless you voluntarily check it, your character cannot die. He can be bruised, battered, KO'd, given sucking chest wounds, lose to his evil rival, fail to protect his family, or whatever, but he won't die. Until you check that box. Checking that box is always voluntary, and happens only when you take damage. Checking the box has two benefits: Firstly, when you check it, all the damage you just took from the attack/event/whatever that caused you to check the box is ignored. Checking the box 'soaks' all that damage. Secondly, you get three bonus dice on everything. This is the player's way of signalling "This is serious. My character is willing to die for this.". Only at this point can the character die, and even then, only if he's actually defeated (just checking the box does not guarantee death).
The Emotion Matrix. A 6x6 table of...gut reactions that you roll on when meeting an important NPC (or sometimes PC) for the first time. It's basically a genre-appropriate 'first impressions' generator. You're walking down the street, a strange woman with a sword springs out and asks what you've done with her brother. What do you feel when you first lay eyes on her? A quick roll gives you an instant suggestion. Maybe it's love at first sight. Maybe something about her terrifies you. Perhaps she reminds you of your dead sister. It's just a flash, a spark, and you're not required to make it a stick, but it cuts through the awkward feeling out stages of "Well, she might be dangerous, how do I react..." and gives you an immediate emotion to play from. To me, this sort of irrational first impression feels more real that the cautious, reasoned chats that often happen in other games.

The game is also chock-full of excellent GMing advice. Check it out.

AceOfFools

2017-07-20, 01:30 PM

There are like a million different steampunk systems, but the problem is that no one agrees on what's involved in a "steampunk" game...
Yes, but I'm looking to try something new. I don't have strong feelings about what I want to play so much as want to play something I haven't played. So anything that fits is worth mentioning.

Tenra Bansho Zero (http://tenra-rpg.com/)

...

Check it out.

That is one Hel of a sales pitch you got there.
Thanks.

Airk

2017-07-20, 01:36 PM

Yes, but I'm looking to try something new. I don't have strong feelings about what I want to play so much as want to play something I haven't played. So anything that fits is worth mentioning.

Good point! I was just trying to home in on your tastes a bit.

That is one Hel of a sales pitch you got there.
Thanks.

And what's more, it's science fantasy by some definitions! You can quite literally use a magical computer to write your prayer seal summoning faster. ;)

Ravens_cry

2017-07-20, 01:44 PM

I haven't played it, but I've always wanted to play Ars Magica. The verb-noun magic system twigs a certain part of my brain, and I like that the quasi-Medivival setting tries to be less quasi than most while exploring the idea without flinching much from some of the less heroic aspects of the setting.
Mutants and Masterminds is probably my favourite system I'll probably never play, even though I have the books. Point buy systems give me HEAVY options overload, but I just love superheroes, and I have enough concepts to fill a Justice League. Maybe, if a friend ever runs a campaign, I can hash something out with the fine people of this forum.

GrayDeath

2017-07-20, 02:43 PM

Ars magica is cool, but very different and very demanding regarding immersion (and only fits one or two rather narrow types of games really well).

I`ve been trying to get a new group for it for ages.

Have you tried Exalted? Its both Bronze Age-esk and has some Science Fantasy. Depending on the types very different main themes, and is complete (2nd).

Knaight

2017-07-20, 03:03 PM

I'm looking to run something that is niether post-Tolkien medieval fantasy (elves, etc.) nor modern super heroes nor "all myths are true" urban fantasy, but I don't really have a good system fire playing outside those genres.

I'd love to do something steampunk, bronze age, space opera, or science fantasy.

There's no shortage of options here. Stuff I personally like that isn't in any of your categories includes:

Warbirds - Warbirds is a really cool system with a really fun setting. The Caribbean has been swept away by a gigantic storm, and left as a bunch of floating islands around the eye of a gas giant. In this milieu the PCs play famous fighter pilots for a famous mercenary guild, one part warrior to one part celebrity, with rock solid mechanics for both of these. An expansion makes it work even better as space opera, and if you're looking for non-standard there is a chapter literally titled Go Gonzo, which includes a mad science section.
Terra Incognita - Terra Incognita is a pulp game, set in the late 1800's and early 1900's, involving a secret society of pulp adventurers masquerading as the incredibly boring National Archaelogical, Geographic, and Submarine society. It's not technically steampunk per se, but it feels more steampunk than any steampunk game I've ever seen and it's not exactly hard to make it more steampunk by just emphasizing the cultural milieu that is already there, using the existing gadgets with slightly different descriptions (by which I mean make them steam powered while changing nothing else), and throwing a bit of tech at the society.
Chronica Feudalis - Chronica Feudalis is a medieval game. It's explicitly historical, with a tiny optional magic system that covers curses that is literally a page long and only covers things that can be explained as people suffering psychological effects from believing they are cursed. It's got a few things going for it, not least that it has four central subsystems of equal complexity for combat, chases, subterfuge, and parleys (formalized social settings), all of which have a functional tool system. It will also work for the bronze age just fine.
Nemesis - Nemesis is a modern action horror game, and while it's not even slightly in your preferred list it also isn't particularly close to the standards. More than that, Nemesis is free and a relatively short read, which makes it an ideal introduction to the ORE system. If you find RPG mechanics interesting, it's worth reading for that alone. Plus, if you like it it sets up REIGN, which is a very non Tolkien medieval fantasy.
ERA - ERA is a bit of an odd game in a few ways. It's made for fairly few players, it's pretty structured in terms of how it plays out, and it generally fits in with certain indie games much better than the big ones that most are familiar with. It's also thoroughly dedicated to a mythic history, working well for stone age through iron age with a milieu utterly unsuited for large and complex political entities.
Qin: The Warring States - Qin is a wuxia game set in Warring States China, with a side of magic. It's familiar enough to be easy and unfamiliar enough to be interesting,
Mythender - I wouldn't use Mythender as a main game, but it makes a fun one shot. You're playing human characters who have picked up godlike powers, struggling to retain their humanity while separated from them by how godlike they are, and trying to kill the actual gods. It's a game with two main loss states for individual characters - death, and ascension to godhood - and that little tidbit is quite representative of the game as a whole.

Then there's the generics. You generally only need one, but it's always nice to have a generic system you like for when you want to run a particular setting that's a little more oddball. Notable generic systems, organized from lightest to heaviest, include:

Fate - I'm not a big fan of Fate, but it has a few things going for it here. One is that it's free, which is always nice. Another is that there are dozens of little setting booklets, about 50 pages long, which are also free. All of them are at least a little weird, and while Fate does have coverage on medieval fantasy, modern superheroes, and urban fantasy it also has thorough coverage on a lot of other things.
Fudge - Fudge is mostly remembered these days as the game that Fate is based off of, but they're really quite different apart from some mechanical guts. Fudge is much more skewed towards simulation, having a fair few mechanics to that effect absent from Fate and lacking Fate's more narrative aspects - Fudge is descended pretty immediately from GURPS and is by a GURPS author, and it shows. It's also a candidate for my personal favorite roleplaying game, and is one of my default generics. There's two main versions, but the free .pdf is a complete system and has everything you need.
d6 Open - d6 Open is a bit crunchier, free, and while it's nominally generic it has much better support for a few genres than others and is crunchy enough to make some of those genres take a bit more work. These genres are any of the three represented by it's core books, each of which is effectively a subtly different system (much like there are technically a few different d20 games, but a lot of them are pretty similar). d6 Fantasy can cover a wide range of fantasy games. d6 Action is a bit of a catch all for action heavy genres, and it works well in modern and near modern games. Then there's d6 Space, which works well for space opera and not so well for hard science fiction, and is adapted from the nongeneric d6 Starwars. Given that space fantasy and space opera are two of the genres you're looking for specifically, you're pretty well covered here.
Cortex - Cortex is a commercial system, or more accurately a family of commercial systems. There's Cortex Classic, and Cortex Plus. Cortex Classic is actually billed as a generic system, and can be found as such, but lacks some of the developments in Cortex Plus, which is less a formal system per se and is more the underlying system for Cortex games, which are usually licensed works for particular products, particularly TV shows (Firefly, Smallville, and Leverage being the big licenses). There's also the Cortex Plus Hacker's Guide, which is essentially Cortex Plus stripped out of these and some tips for making a game out of it.
Savage Worlds - I downright dislike Savage Worlds, but if you want a pulpy game with a focus on miniatures combat it's probably your best option among the generics. Ask the people who actually like it for the details.
GURPS - GURPS is a large, detailed system built with a focus on realistic simulation. It's comparable to 3e D&D in complexity, it's a bit of a behemoth, and the GURPS splatbooks are the best researched in the entire industry by a pretty hefty margin. If you're playing a more grounded, more gritty game and like mechanics GURPS is a good option. It doesn't do pulpier games well, although the splatbooks are still worth using for the research alone.
HERO - Much like Savage Worlds, I don't particularly like HERO and as such my opinion represents one of a detractor who respects the system but wouldn't choose to play it (hit up Jay R for someone who loves it, as his perspective on it seems pretty standard for those that like it and is largely accurate, apart from the speculation about why the detractors are detractors which tends to be abject nonsense). It's a descendant of Champions, a superhero game, but made generic, and the superhero roots show. It's very focused on powers, with a ridiculously extensive list of options. There's some mechanical wonkiness around equipment, but if you're willing to put up with enough mechanics to make D&D seem rules light and you're playing something where character specific powers fit (which can represent equipment, and just tends to do so better when the character has signature equipment they tend to use) it's not a bad system.

goto124

2017-07-20, 03:10 PM

I heard Solars are the only kind of PC worth playing, though. Someone please clarify.

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-20, 05:08 PM

Lots of great games out there:

Bushido RPG

Traveller - Classic Edition (think star wars).

The Morrow Project

Aftermath

Runequest

Call of Cthulhu

recommend the top three first.

SirBellias

2017-07-20, 05:40 PM

Lazers and Feelings, Fiasco, Perfect Unrevised, Mouseguard RPG, Numenera, Stars Without Number.

Lazers and Feelings and Stars without Number are Space/Space Opera, but Lazers and Feelings is built more for One Shots.

Perfect Unrevised is a Victorian/Big Brother/Kinda Steampunk type of deal that I haven't actually played, but is free and certainly looked interesting.

Mouseguard... Doesn't have elves :smalltongue:

Numenera might be considered science fantasy. It's kind of expensive, though.

You can do most things with fiasco if you find/make the right setting tables, but I admit that it probably isn't what you are looking for tone-wise.

Lord Raziere

2017-07-20, 05:54 PM

I heard Solars are the only kind of PC worth playing, though.

Haha, no this is dead wrong.

Solars are just the most powerful by design. however their whole schtick is tied up in Humanity **** Yeah! romanticism, so people like to say they can do far more than the other Exalts. while others are less powerful, that doesn't mean they are any less viable or that their stories aren't worth telling. that and for some reason the developers seem to have a love affair with them the same way DnD developers have a love affair with Wizards: they pile on features for them and neglect everyone else.

Basically, the Solars are like 3.5 Wizards except intentional. Except a Solar never rises to the 3.5 wizards heights of power, but they are still stronger than any other Exalt. the only reason people say only they are worth playing is the same design bias that that gives one thing lots of options and power over everyone else without caring whether its good design or not because they are in love with the idea.

Basically Solar Exalts are Exalted's Designer Sues. Its really grating after a while if you like all the other Exalts. like Sidereals, Alchemicals or Infernals.

scalyfreak

2017-07-20, 08:48 PM

Ars magica is cool, but very different and very demanding regarding immersion (and only fits one or two rather narrow types of games really well).

I`ve been trying to get a new group for it for ages.

Loved Ars Magica, back when I had a group for it... to this day the best and most flexible-while-awesome magic system I've ever played with.

I also really like how you have your Magus character, and then your secondaries. The variety and the different fun to be had from that is endless.

goto124

2017-07-20, 08:48 PM

Ah, I see. Thank you for explaining!

2D8HP

2017-07-20, 09:21 PM

...I'd love to do something steampunk, bronze age, space opera, or science fantasy.

FNN has already cited some that I was thinking of:

Traveller - Classic Edition (think star wars).

The 1977 Traveller rules may be the game that I've spent the most time using at any table. Beyond using d6's, that your PC can die during character creation, and that Scouts and Merchants may "muster out" with a starship, I don't remember much of the rules, but I do remember the adventures, which were AWESOME!

Runequest

The 1978 version of RuneQuest largely replaced D&D in my circle (though we did try MERP/Rolemaster just before the "fellowship" broke apart. Adulthood how I curse you!!!).

RuneQuest's usual setting (Glorantha) is Bronze age, and the system just feels intuitive.

Call of Cthulhu

With the sole exception of the 1977 "Basic" (48 pages) Dungeons & Dragons rules, no RPG has been easier for me to GM or "Keeper" than Call of Cthullu.

RingWorld is a hard to find Space Opera game that used rules similar to RQ and CoC, recommended if you can find them (I GM'd it but never played it).

I'll put in a mention of my favorite RPG, Pendragon. It's an Arthurian setting, and except for character creation, which takes too long for my taste, I really love the rules and the setting.

OK, for games that I never played but like the settings:

Flashing Blades (swashbuckling in 17th century France)

GURPS Swashbucklers (Musketeers and Pirates).

Castle Falkenstein (gaslamp fantasy, and steampunk, just a wonderful setting)

Space 1889 (steampunk and planetary romance)

7th Sea (fantasy swashbuckling, a wonderful setting).

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-20, 09:40 PM

Wait... what's a "standard system"?

2D8HP

2017-07-20, 10:09 PM

Wait... what's a "standard system"?

I'm curious as well (maybe worth another thread?).

For this Forum my guess for the most known and popular games/systems are (from most known/popular to least):

3.5 Dungeons & Dragons/Pathfinder,

5e Dungeons & Dragons,

Apocalypse World,

FATE,

Mutants & Masterminds,

4e Dungeons & Dragons,

GURPS,

2e Advanced Dungeons & Dragons,

BECMI Dungeons & Dragons,

HERO (Champions etc),

Vampire/WoD

Savage World's,

and

Call of Cthullu/BRP (at least people have heard of it).

1337 b4k4

2017-07-20, 10:19 PM

BILLY MAYS HERE!

If you want a space opera in the wastes of outerspace (think more Firefly and less Star Trek), you want Traveller. Laser rifles that need backpacks to fire, faster than light travel that always takes a week no matter how short or far, communication at the speed of travel (no ansibles) and computers whose sizes are measured in TONS and that barely have enough capacity to run half the ships systems at once. It's officially "settingless" but the rules establish a sort of quasi feudal galaxy spanning imperium. How relevant that imperium is to your game is really up to you. I tend to play with it "way over there" and use it as background rather than a direct influence on the worlds the PCs are in. Your PCs will be down on their luck and scrambling for credits. It's a question of WHEN not IF they decide to start doing semi illegal things to make their next payment. (various editions, all of them good, the 1980's edition can be had for about $10 on DTRPG, look for "The Traveller Book", most recent editions are by Mongoose Publishing, more modernized

If you like transhuman SF, and you thought that D&D 3.x character generation was too simple, then Eclipse Phase is the system for you. Seriously, their Transhuman expansion included package based character building, and even that is still complex. But the system as a whole, and the world in envisions is captivating. Humanity was nearly wiped out by military AIs called TITANS which left a wave of destruction in their path before suddenly vanishing. That was the Fall. Luckily for humanity, brain uploading had been perfected before hand with basic intra-stellar travel. A lot of people escaped Earth and got away from the Titans, many more escaped as essentially data chips, hoping to one day be reinstantiated. It's now 20-50 ish years later, and humanity has spread throughout the solar system, Earth is still a quarantine zone, life is both wonderful and horrible, and a secret quasi criminal organization called Firewall stands guard to protect humanity from the return of TITANS or the various nasty things they left behind. (available for purchase, or also free from the developers under CC licensing https://robboyle.wordpress.com)

Are you a fan of the WWE? Do you wish that you could be Vince McMahon (without all the creepy overtones?) Does the idea of following the likes of The Rock, The Undertaker and Jake the Snake Roberts both in and out of the ring as they work to entertain millions of sometimes drunk and not always happy fans make you unnecessarily aggressive to other people? Then World Wide Wrestling is for you. Never played it myself but heard and seen and boy does it look like fun with the right people. Based on Apocalypse World, you and the other players will mange, produce and wrestle in a WWE like wrestling company, setting up matches, running the matches and dealing with the behind the scenes wheeling and dealing that goes along with it. (digital version available for about $10 https://ndpdesign.com/wwwrpg/)

Do you sometimes wish rather than the PC, you were the monster? Do you wonder just what those undead skeletons do in the eons between adventurers coming to smash their skulls in? Then you want "The Skeletons" rpg, a short game (1 session, 11 pages of rules) wherein you will be the Skeletons, guarding your treasure against mindless rats, greedy thieves and fool hardy adventurers, until you, and your treasure pass into myth and legend, and you crumble once again to dust. ($8 from DTRPG)

Call in the next 10 minutes and we'll double your order by including at no charge an entire collection of Microlite20 inspired RPGs. Short simple rule sets that provide a skeleton for all sorts of genres, great for on offs and short (2-4 game) campaigns. Everything from Spies to Adolescent Genetically Altered Karate Tortoises to Zombies and all the way back to bog standard fantasy. (free, varying quality, but always good for a quickie https://retroroleplaying.com/content/microlite20-rpg-collection/)

Jay R

2017-07-20, 11:32 PM

Xalyz

2017-07-21, 12:52 AM

I am currently dming for a group in FFG's Star Wars Edge of the Empire. It is far more cinematic system than d&d and it doesn't use levels, instead you spend your xp to buy skills and talents.

Martin Greywolf

2017-07-21, 02:05 AM

Seconding the FATE for generic system, it is fairly light in terms of rules and you can expand it quite easily to be usable for pretty much anything.

For space opera, I don't think anyone mentioned Planet Mercenary - it has the DnD "lots o' numbers" feel to it, but it's designed pretty well and does some interesting things with how adventures work. Also, "talk first go first" initiative is quickly becoming a favourite of mine.

For some quite unusual systems, Don't rest your head gives you very, very unusual and dark urban fantasy.

Then there's Deadlands, with magical Wild West combined with steampunk.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-21, 03:52 AM

Traveller - Classic Edition (think star wars).

It's much more Firefly with FTL travel, with maybe a hint of Star Trek. You can't really be Obi-Wan, Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, or so on. Specifically for Luke and Leia you're too young to get all the skill points you'd need.

It's an amazing game though, and really simple. I recommend Mongoose Traveller 1e because Classic Traveller (or at least the first edition) focused on making military characters, MgT allows you to make civilians just as easily. (I don't have 1e from DTRPG, I'm borrowing my dad's pdf/CD copy because we live in the same house.)

I personally love Eclipse Phase and also recommend it (although slight note, it's set only ten years after the fall [10AF]).

Airk

2017-07-21, 09:59 AM

Traveler is not Space Opera.

Traveler is realistic sci-fi. These two things CAN go together under certain circumstances, but they clash more often than not. I think Traveler is a poor choice for the sort of "high adventure" stuff because I feel like it becomes bogged down in details too easily. I'd want a faster, looser game for the space opera feel.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-21, 10:48 AM

Traveler is not Space Opera.

Traveler is realistic sci-fi.

I am so wishing that the forum had a 'rolling on the floor laughing my arse off' smiley.

Traveller's default technology is entirely reliant on artificial gravity. It's rather realistic for Space Opera, but don't pretend it's realistic. It's got a long way to go before it reaches Revelation Space: the tabletop RPG (to pick the hardest Space Opera I've read).

Of course I do personally tend to realistic it up, using reaction drives instead of standard thrust plates (because to me a spaceship isn't complete without a rocket exhaust) and plan to hack it to do Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga (it can do the Night's Dawn trilogy well enough, but I need to work out how to deal with the Commonwealth Saga's immortal humans). But it's actually about as unrealistic as Star Trek is.

2300AD is more realistic, but even then it's still a bit soft.

These two things CAN go together under certain circumstances, but they clash more often than not. I think Traveler is a poor choice for the sort of "high adventure" stuff because I feel like it becomes bogged down in details too easily. I'd want a faster, looser game for the space opera feel.

Space Opera is more than high adventure, Firefly was a Space Opera, as was Foundation (you know, the series where almost every problem is solved by the inevitability of historic forces to within a certain degree of fantasy). Traveller's not Space Opera in the Star Wars style, it's barely even Star Trek style Space Opera (although it's much easier to turn it into a Trek game than it is to make it a Star Wars game), but it's still adventure in space (call it 'low adventure' or 'low space opera' if you want, but it can easily scale up to 'high' space opera).

If you want something more 'high adventure' look more at things like Rocket Age (although only pick that up if you want 1930s style Space Opera). I'd use core Traveller for stuff like Lensman or potentially Star Trek (you really just need to houserule in shield generators and use the optional Warp Drive), but definitely not something like Star Trek.

Also, it's really not that detailed, I'd put it at about the level of Fate. It's certainly less detailed than D&D 5e (past character creation, which yes could bog down), which everyone tells me is 'rules medium'. Sure, space stuff will slow down, but when was the last time a Space Opera showed running a ship as a simple thing, let along space combat?

Knaight

2017-07-21, 11:10 AM

I'm just putting this post here to note that I had to leave my previous post largely unfinished due to time constraints - it has now been cleaned up, the games have been explained, and it's worth going upthread again to read them and get some actual details.

Airk

2017-07-21, 12:10 PM

Traveller's default technology is entirely reliant on artificial gravity. It's rather realistic for Space Opera, but don't pretend it's realistic. It's got a long way to go before it reaches Revelation Space: the tabletop RPG (to pick the hardest Space Opera I've read).

Didn't Revelation Space also have artificial gravity? I feel like it did. But I hated it, so I blocked most of it from my brain.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-21, 12:40 PM

Having a few technological conceits doesn't make a setting or story "space opera" or "really soft SF".

Speculative Fiction is all about "what if?", and artificial gravity or FTL are perfectly legitimate "what if" elements, if handled consistently, coherently, and logically. If they serve as set dressing and their capabilities/qualities are slave to the immediate needs of STORY! and ACTION! and COOL!... then that is what makes the setting and story "space opera".

If the FTL drive can't operate too closely to a planet or star or whatever, with how close that is as a function of planetary mass or the "steepness" of the gravity well, and the drive takes X time to cross Y distance consistently, then just having FTL doesn't make the setting "soft" or "space opera".

If the FTL drive can't operate too closely to a large body, but that distance is determined by the "dramatic needs" of the moment, and the drive gets the ship between star systems at the speed of plot, then that setting is "soft" and/or "space opera".

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-21, 12:43 PM

Didn't Revelation Space also have artificial gravity? I feel like it did. But I hated it, so I blocked most of it from my brain.

No, all artificial gravity in Revelation Space was from acceleration. It appeared to have it at some points because Lighthuggers in the series have a fuel capacity of 'yes', so the Nostalgia for Infinity spent a lot of time accelerating (at I suspect 1g for most of it, although the book doesn't mention it's acceleration).

I absolutely adored the book, although I only got about two thirds to three quarters of the way through before I accidentally put it in storage, but it's an example of how to write 'realistic space opera'. It's basically the opposite of Lensman, instead of having infinitely fast radio and ships that can casually travel between galaxies both information and people has to move at sublight speeds and this has a massive influence, while automation and implants have really taken off (and then got dialled back by the time of the book). It also avoids having aliens allied with humans, in fact the lack of aliens is a plot point.

EDIT: to be clear, I'm not saying 'artificial gravity means space opera', I was using it as an example of how Traveller isn't realistic science fiction (it totally can be, you just have to houserule out certain technologies).

Honestly, Space Opera is such a massive genre that we need different subtypes, but I can't find anyone who's tried to define any. I personally use 'low space opera' if the focus is on normal human people acting on a small scale (so the first two thirds or so of Revelation Space fit perfectly), or 'high space opera' if we have extremely skilled protagonists and/or the stories follow nations. My 'high space opera' is definitely more popular, I love it as much as the next man, but it's not the only kind.

I'd also argue that Space Opera can exist with hard limits. So if the FTL drive can't be used within 100 diameters of a body weighing over 40 metric tonnes (to give a random limit), and this is adhered to strictly, if the story still focuses on 'cool' and/or 'adventure' I'd call it space opera. I personally do talk about hard and soft space opera in real life, and to me the difference is how much the limits flex to the story.

For some I'm not sure exactly where to place them, the maximum gravity field a ZTT ship in the Night's Dawn trilogy can jump in isn't firmly established, but there's the implication that if you're close enough to send and receive space planes then you're too close to jump. In fact, it's firmly established that ships orbit at least several minutes at full acceleration away from where they can safely jump, and how they interact with your flight vector is explained (you jump along it for ZTT ships, voidhawks and blackhawks can tailor their wormholes as required).

2D8HP

2017-07-21, 01:14 PM

...Traveller's not Space Opera in the Star Wars style, it's barely even Star Trek style Space Opera (although it's much easier to turn it into a Trek game than it is to make it a Star Wars game), but it's still adventure in space (call it 'low adventure' or 'low space opera' if you want, but it can easily scale up to 'high' space opera)

I believe that a real big inspiration for Traveller was Space Viking (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Viking) (and sequels) by H. Beam Piper.

See here (http://zho.berka.com/2011/04/12/traveller-inspiration-free-e-books/).

The Foundation trilogy, and the Lensmen have already been cited, but there's a wealth of other pre-Stark Trek and Star Wars science-fiction.

GrayDeath

2017-07-21, 01:47 PM

I heard Solars are the only kind of PC worth playing, though. Someone please clarify.

Nope. They are the easiest to play, due to not being tied mechanically or fluffise (with the exception of "World at large wants them dead because they...."). More below.

Haha, no this is dead wrong.

Solars are just the most powerful by design. however their whole schtick is tied up in Humanity **** Yeah! romanticism, so people like to say they can do far more than the other Exalts. while others are less powerful, that doesn't mean they are any less viable or that their stories aren't worth telling. that and for some reason the developers seem to have a love affair with them the same way DnD developers have a love affair with Wizards: they pile on features for them and neglect everyone else.

Basically, the Solars are like 3.5 Wizards except intentional. Except a Solar never rises to the 3.5 wizards heights of power, but they are still stronger than any other Exalt. the only reason people say only they are worth playing is the same design bias that that gives one thing lots of options and power over everyone else without caring whether its good design or not because they are in love with the idea.

Basically Solar Exalts are Exalted's Designer Sues. Its really grating after a while if you like all the other Exalts. like Sidereals, Alchemicals or Infernals.

Not quite true.

Solars are the most powerful of all Exalted IF you either:

A: want to maxx sorcery (less powerful than D&D Magic in general, especially less abuseable spells, but grand in scope)

or

B: you want the ultimate Specialist.

They are not even half as powerful with specific, broader "out of the box" as Infernals, Lunars Shapeshifting makes them incredible at Infiltration and low Expense general purpose, Abyssals are like Solars but completely focussed on Destruction (slow or fast).

Dragonblooded and Alchemicals mostly suck though, unless the DB have a full Team or th Alchemicals are quite old and in/on Autochton.

So in general I would say that Solars most closely resemble Sorcerers as D&D Equivalent. Lots of power in the area they want. And even seminoncombattants (expenseise) can beat small army units mid Game.

Loved Ars Magica, back when I had a group for it... to this day the best and most flexible-while-awesome magic system I've ever played with.

I also really like how you have your Magus character, and then your secondaries. The variety and the different fun to be had from that is endless.

Indeed. The System is simply awesome.

Effectively you played your wizard and got your fighter/Rogue/Bard for free. :D

exelsisxax

2017-07-21, 01:56 PM

Didn't Revelation Space also have artificial gravity? I feel like it did. But I hated it, so I blocked most of it from my brain.

Revelation space is by no means the hardest scifi. The whole shrouder/juggler thing and various nonsense like the melding takes quite a bit of Mohs off. If you want truly diamond-hard scifi, House of Suns. There's just ONE big dumb thing that isn't reasonable. Still Alistair Reynolds though.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-21, 02:12 PM

I believe that a real big inspiration for Traveller was Space Viking (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Viking) (and sequels) by H. Beam Piper.

See here (http://zho.berka.com/2011/04/12/traveller-inspiration-free-e-books/).

The Foundation trilogy, and the Lensmen have already been cited, but there's a wealth of other pre-Stark Trek and Star Wars science-fiction.

Free ebooks? Yoink. (Okay, I've already pulled a bunch of space opera off of Project Gutenberg, I love the site.)

But yes, heck Star Wars is heavily Derivative (which ISN'T BAD, it's just not innovative in the story department*). It's probably my least favourite Space Opera that I've seen or read, and I'm someone who loves Star Trek (I find it incredibly soft, but it has the right feel for me). I always get worried when recommending the Lensman series these days, because it can come off as a rip off of Star Wars despite being very different (and to me better, but your millage may vary).

* Special effects is another story, apparently, the first film was before my time.

Revelation space is by no means the hardest scifi. The whole shrouder/juggler thing and various nonsense like the melding takes quite a bit of Mohs off. If you want truly diamond-hard scifi, House of Suns. There's just ONE big dumb thing that isn't reasonable. Still Alistair Reynolds though.

True, but by the standards of Space Opera it's rock hard (not diamond hard, but still harder than Star War's sponge).

AceOfFools

2017-07-21, 02:18 PM

Have you tried Exalted? Its both Bronze Age-esk and has some Science Fantasy. Depending on the types very different main themes, and is complete (2nd).

I do so love the Exalted setting, but the mechanics... not so much.

I heard Solars are the only kind of PC worth playing, though. Someone please clarify.
I actually find the game much more compelling when playing lower powered splats.

Among other reasons, if Solar-level cheap perfect defenses (physical and social) can be applied and the Solar is boringly invincible, but if the defenses have been circumvented and the contest is instantly and painfully over. This could be interesting if the bypasses were more dynamic, but many are locked in place by the timing of the fight. E.g. (in 2nd ed) the default high-Compassion flaw is "this perfect defense only functions if your loved ones are on eminent danger from the attacker".

That example is particularly obnoxious because it strongly encourages those who have the biggest problems with collateral damage to put their loved ones in danger so they can survive the first attack against them.

Lord Raziere

2017-07-21, 02:23 PM

Not quite true.

Solars are the most powerful of all Exalted IF you either:

A: want to maxx sorcery (less powerful than D&D Magic in general, especially less abuseable spells, but grand in scope)

or

B: you want the ultimate Specialist.

They are not even half as powerful with specific, broader "out of the box" as Infernals, Lunars Shapeshifting makes them incredible at Infiltration and low Expense general purpose, Abyssals are like Solars but completely focussed on Destruction (slow or fast).

Dragonblooded and Alchemicals mostly suck though, unless the DB have a full Team or th Alchemicals are quite old and in/on Autochton.

So in general I would say that Solars most closely resemble Sorcerers as D&D Equivalent. Lots of power in the area they want. And even seminoncombattants (expenseise) can beat small army units mid Game.

Still Designer Sues. Thats true no matter what.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-21, 02:39 PM

I do so love the Exalted setting, but the mechanics... not so much.

I actually find the game much more compelling when playing lower powered splats.

Among other reasons, if Solar-level cheap perfect defenses (physical and social) can be applied and the Solar is boringly invincible, but if the defenses have been circumvented and the contest is instantly and painfully over. This could be interesting if the bypasses were more dynamic, but many are locked in place by the timing of the fight. E.g. (in 2nd ed) the default high-Compassion flaw is "this perfect defense only functions if your loved ones are on eminent danger from the attacker".

That example is particularly obnoxious because it strongly encourages those who have the biggest problems with collateral damage to put their loved ones in danger so they can survive the first attack against them.

White Wolf has a long history of all or nothing attacks and defenses, instead of dynamic resistance. It's one of the biggest failings of their system design across multiple iterations of multiple game lines.

(See, Dominate, Presence, and other mental powers in Vampire.)

AceOfFools

2017-07-21, 03:07 PM

Wait... what's a "standard system"?

In relation to this request, anything that isn't your overplayed race, class, & level typical fantasy game that draws heavily from DnD

Context: too many of the systems I was finding via my (very lazy) googling were basically DnD with somewhat different mechanics--if that.

Knaight

2017-07-21, 03:28 PM

In relation to this request, anything that isn't your overplayed race, class, & level typical fantasy game that draws heavily from DnD

Context: too many of the systems I was finding via my (very lazy) googling were basically DnD with somewhat different mechanics--if that.

That widens the field significantly - even putting aside how there's some real variety in race-class-level games (Torchbearer is deliberately designed to have a similar feel to D&D and is still pretty dramatically different), most systems don't use a race-class-level system. Having none of the three is pretty common, and levels without classes and classes without levels surprisingly common. Take a look at the ones in my list that I noted were free (and I might have missed a few) - none of them fit the race-class-level paradigm, and none of them fit the D&D style fantasy paradigm.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-21, 03:31 PM

In relation to this request, anything that isn't your overplayed race, class, & level typical fantasy game that draws heavily from DnD

Context: too many of the systems I was finding via my (very lazy) googling were basically DnD with somewhat different mechanics--if that.

What exactly do you want? You leave that and you get about 90% of my collection (I mean, I also own games like Anima: Beyond Fantasy, but that's more Rolemaster-inspired).

If you want something narrative focused it's hard to beat Fate.

Alternatively, looking for a gritty system for any genre? Wade into GURPS.

Rules focused on fast combat? Savage Worlds.

Transhumanist survival? Eclipse Phase.

1930s Space Opera? Rocket Age.

Wuxia? Qin: the Warring States or Legends of the Wulin occupy the two opposite ends.

Gaslamp Fantasy? Victoriana is a good bet.

Or do you want us to recommend our favourite nonstandard? In which case give me a bit to form my pitch (which is likely for Victoriana, I love it's mix).

Lord Raziere

2017-07-21, 03:54 PM

In relation to this request, anything that isn't your overplayed race, class, & level typical fantasy game that draws heavily from DnD

Context: too many of the systems I was finding via my (very lazy) googling were basically DnD with somewhat different mechanics--if that.

Oh so non-standard is basically lots of things.

Lessee....I'd say Fate by this metric to actually play, because its the only one I've had the opportunity. it can do so many things with such a light system, any character, any situation, no number puzzle to get there, and it works well. its narrativist, so if you don't like that, oh well. its not for everyone.

I like to read Nobilis and Chuubo Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine though, Jenna Moran's work is something to behold, and the rules work well.....if you can understand the weird whimsical fair-folk way they are written and the strange whimsical/mythical settings she writes.

best I'd love to play is OVA. anime roleplaying, is light, can do lots of things, hope I can play it someday.

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-21, 06:32 PM

FNN has already cited some that I was thinking of:

The 1977 Traveller rules may be the game that I've spent the most time using at any table. Beyond using d6's, that your PC can die during character creation, and that Scouts and Merchants may "muster out" with a starship, I don't remember much of the rules, but I do remember the adventures, which were AWESOME!

The 1978 version of RuneQuest largely replaced D&D in my circle (though we did try MERP/Rolemaster just before the "fellowship" broke apart. Adulthood how I curse you!!!).

RuneQuest's usual setting (Glorantha) is Bronze age, and the system just feels intuitive.

With the sole exception of the 1977 "Basic" (48 pages) Dungeons & Dragons rules, no RPG has been easier for me to GM or "Keeper" than Call of Cthullu.

RingWorld is a hard to find Space Opera game that used rules similar to RQ and CoC, recommended if you can find them (I GM'd it but never played it).

I'll put in a mention of my favorite RPG, Pendragon. It's an Arthurian setting, and except for character creation, which takes too long for my taste, I really love the rules and the setting.

OK, for games that I never played but like the settings:

Flashing Blades (swashbuckling in 17th century France)

GURPS Swashbucklers (Musketeers and Pirates).

Castle Falkenstein (gaslamp fantasy, and steampunk, just a wonderful setting)

Space 1889 (steampunk and planetary romance)

7th Sea (fantasy swashbuckling, a wonderful setting).
I love rolling up Traveller characters!

Grod_The_Giant

2017-07-21, 07:02 PM

I do so love the Exalted setting, but the mechanics... not so much.

I actually find the game much more compelling when playing lower powered splats.

Among other reasons, if Solar-level cheap perfect defenses (physical and social) can be applied and the Solar is boringly invincible, but if the defenses have been circumvented and the contest is instantly and painfully over. This could be interesting if the bypasses were more dynamic, but many are locked in place by the timing of the fight. E.g. (in 2nd ed) the default high-Compassion flaw is "this perfect defense only functions if your loved ones are on eminent danger from the attacker".

That example is particularly obnoxious because it strongly encourages those who have the biggest problems with collateral damage to put their loved ones in danger so they can survive the first attack against them.
It might be worth checking out 3e, which has generally quite solid combat mechanics-- no more perfect attacks/perfect defense spamming, for instance, and the new split between Withering and Decisive attacks means that you can actually have back-and-forth without going splat in one attack.

Jay R

2017-07-21, 08:45 PM

I love rolling up Traveller characters!

Yup. I think it's more fun to roll up a new one than merely play the one I just rolled up.

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-21, 10:43 PM

Yup. I think it's more fun to roll up a new one than merely play the one I just rolled up.
Yup, even dying is fun! Or perhaps cheating death! Oh, what mustering out benefits will I get?

Someone created a traveller character tool. It runs it all without user input so it isn't that fun. https://devilghost.com/software/travellercharacter/

Perhaps someone knows of a good one online.

Lacco

2017-07-22, 05:03 AM

Ok, so non-standard you say?

Blade of the Iron Throne for the desolate sword & sorcery worlds, deadly combats, dark magics. Definitely not tolkienesque.

Ryuutama for a non-tolkienesque fantasy world walkabout/journey/adventure.

De Profundis for a real-life lovecraftian horror, supported by the main idea that roleplay is done via letters.

En Garde/Flashing Blades for fun in fictional Paris.

Plese, guys! Stop talking about Traveller!

I don't want to start thinking about it... it will lead to me posting in the "Finding Players" and then getting talked to run it... and I can't keep Traveller games alive! So either stop talking about it or run one for me! :smallbiggrin:

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-22, 01:10 PM

Lacco

2017-07-22, 01:19 PM

Well if you were to run a game on this site, I would join it. Imagine how much fun you would have running a game? Think of the fame and fortune!

Hey, how many other people here would join a classic traveller game if he ran it?

No no no no no no nope. You won't talk me into GMing! :smalleek:

I'm all for playing, but I don't have enough time on my hands to GM a Traveller game - I know, I tried. And failed. Twice.

It's enough fame for me that I GM two Riddle of Steel games, and keep them running :smallbiggrin:.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-22, 01:26 PM

Well if you were to run a game on this site, I would join it. Imagine how much fun you would have running a game? Think of the fame and fortune!

Hey, how many other people here would join a classic traveller game if he ran it?

Subject to time and platform, I would be interested. I can't promise I can join, because I've got quite a bit on right now, but I can say that I will if I've got nothing else on.

(Come on, let's see if we can get to six or more terms in the Navy before death)

EDIT: I mean, in theory I can GM, but little time right now and I haven't read the CT book yet (got access to a pdf and read most of MgT1e, but not got through CT. Great art though).

2D8HP

2017-07-22, 01:27 PM

I'd play as an ex-Scout (I want that starship).

GrayDeath

2017-07-22, 01:44 PM

It might be worth checking out 3e, which has generally quite solid combat mechanics-- no more perfect attacks/perfect defense spamming, for instance, and the new split between Withering and Decisive attacks means that you can actually have back-and-forth without going splat in one attack.

True, third is a HUGE Improvement systemwise.

it completely crapsacked most of the Setting meta-events (and origins, Style, etc) though.
And there is only Core.

Which, even though its is very much superior mechanically, I would only recommend it to complete Exalted newbs content on playing Solars 8as I doubt there will be another Type fully done within, say, three or more years,).

As for the Solars cheap perfects. that problem was quite handily adressed by the Ink Monkeys "exalted 2.5, which removed most really bonkersly broken holes (or at least built a thin rope bridge across^^).

Yes, Exalteds System is the weakest part, but if your players all ahve around the same amount of system mastery, that is no real problem.

Given the wider parameters posted above, I would mostly suggest the following 2 "General" Systems if that is really what you want:

FATE for narrative games

Savage Worlds for fast yet crunchy games.

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-22, 01:48 PM

No no no no no no nope. You won't talk me into GMing! :smalleek:

I'm all for playing, but I don't have enough time on my hands to GM a Traveller game - I know, I tried. And failed. Twice.

It's enough fame for me that I GM two Riddle of Steel games, and keep them running :smallbiggrin:.

Well, how about doing a looking for players thread just to see if there is interest? Then, assuming there is enough interest, resolve the GM issue. We don't need a GM if we don't have enough players.

ATHATH

2017-07-22, 02:29 PM

Would Shadowrun be a good fit for you?

Lacco

2017-07-22, 02:30 PM

Subject to time and platform, I would be interested. I can't promise I can join, because I've got quite a bit on right now, but I can say that I will if I've got nothing else on.

(Come on, let's see if we can get to six or more terms in the Navy before death)

EDIT: I mean, in theory I can GM, but little time right now and I haven't read the CT book yet (got access to a pdf and read most of MgT1e, but not got through CT. Great art though).

The only platform currently working for me is PbP.

Skype is also available as solution, but my time is very... unreliable.

...you... you.... you would GM...? *PuppyDogEyes*

Dibs on navy pilot!!! :smallbiggrin:

I'd play as an ex-Scout (I want that starship).

And we have another interested... :smallsmile:

Well, how about doing a looking for players thread just to see if there is interest? Then, assuming there is enough interest, resolve the GM issue. We don't need a GM if we don't have enough players.

Feel free to - I'm not good with recruiting posts (most of my fall through), however I think there will be lots of interest.

Still not gonna GM it.

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-22, 04:11 PM

It's much more Firefly with FTL travel, with maybe a hint of Star Trek. You can't really be Obi-Wan, Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, or so on. Specifically for Luke and Leia you're too young to get all the skill points you'd need.

It's an amazing game though, and really simple. I recommend Mongoose Traveller 1e because Classic Traveller (or at least the first edition) focused on making military characters, MgT allows you to make civilians just as easily. (I don't have 1e from DTRPG, I'm borrowing my dad's pdf/CD copy because we live in the same house.)

I personally love Eclipse Phase and also recommend it (although slight note, it's set only ten years after the fall [10AF]).

Did your common sense check fail? Think Star Wars is really just "a role playing game in space". I didn't know poindexter would going to use a list he and his usenet buddies created back in 1986 which defines 100+ criteria defining what style of science fiction a particular thing is or not. If I had know, I would have used more words to spell it out instead of shorthanding it to simply "star wars".

Knaight

2017-07-22, 05:59 PM

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-23, 12:40 AM

The point is that "Star Wars" as a property has a particular aesthetic that is more than just "in space", and Traveler really doesn't fit it. "Traveler (think Star Wars)" is like "Edge of Empire (think Battlestar Galactica)".

Unless you played Traveler back in the day and players thought it was like that. But next time, for you anal-retentive tight wads, I will try the explain it so a five year old can understand it. I shorted handed it, you don't have common sense to see it fine. You don't like it. F-off.

Knaight

2017-07-23, 01:05 AM

Unless you played Traveler back in the day and players thought it was like that. But next time, for you anal-retentive tight wads, I will try the explain it so a five year old can understand it. I shorted handed it, you don't have common sense to see it fine. You don't like it. F-off.

This isn't a matter of being unable to understand you. This is a matter of understanding you and disagreeing with your conclusions. There's a difference, and while it's a difference that some find surprisingly elusive it's not actually that complicated.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-23, 04:31 AM

Did your common sense check fail? Think Star Wars is really just "a role playing game in space". I didn't know poindexter would going to use a list he and his usenet buddies created back in 1986 which defines 100+ criteria defining what style of science fiction a particular thing is or not. If I had know, I would have used more words to spell it out instead of shorthanding it to simply "star wars".

Unless you played Traveler back in the day and players thought it was like that. But next time, for you anal-retentive tight wads, I will try the explain it so a five year old can understand it. I shorted handed it, you don't have common sense to see it fine. You don't like it. F-off.

In case it wasn't obvious, I agree with Knaight.

For the record, this is my idea of a standard Traveller game:
-A bunch of people in their late 20s to their 60s have a ship.
-They go from system to system, trying to find cargo and passengers to make the next mortgage and life support instalment.
-Tend to be a bit morally suspect, but still good people (this one will obviously depend on your game).
-There's a bunch of aliens, but most PCs are human and relatively ordinary.

This is Firefly:
-A bunch of people in their 20s to 40s (I think, don't know official character ages) have a ship.
-They go from planet to planet, trying to find cargo to make the next food payment.
-Not exactly good guys, but still decent people.
-A disturbing lack of Asians for a universe that is half Chinese.

This is Star Wars:
-Oh no, the empire is evil.
-Don't worry, the Rebellion will sort it out.
-There are wizards called Jedi, but they can only shift the balance not win it entire.
-Here are our group of larger than life heroes!

I think you can see why I use Firefly to explain what Traveller is.

Knaight

2017-07-23, 04:45 AM

In case it wasn't obvious, I agree with Knaight.

For the record, this is my idea of a standard Traveller game:
-A bunch of people in their late 20s to their 60s have a ship.
-They go from system to system, trying to find cargo and passengers to make the next mortgage and life support instalment.
-Tend to be a bit morally suspect, but still good people (this one will obviously depend on your game).
-There's a bunch of aliens, but most PCs are human and relatively ordinary.

This is Firefly:
-A bunch of people in their 20s to 40s (I think, don't know official character ages) have a ship.
-They go from planet to planet, trying to find cargo to make the next food payment.
-Not exactly good guys, but still decent people.
-A disturbing lack of Asians for a universe that is half Chinese.

This is Star Wars:
-Oh no, the empire is evil.
-Don't worry, the Rebellion will sort it out.
-There are wizards called Jedi, but they can only shift the balance not win it entire.
-Here are our group of larger than life heroes!

Yes, but where are the other 96+ points of this hundred+ point heuristic we allegedly have? Those usenet buddies from 1986 are going to be disappointed in how abridged it got.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-23, 05:31 AM

Yes, but where are the other 96+ points of this hundred+ point heuristic we allegedly have? Those usenet buddies from 1986 are going to be disappointed in how abridged it got.

Sorry, forgot this is the internet, I should have gone with the 'don't get your knickers in a twist about being called out' version. I'll remember not to be so polite and reasonable next time.

For another point, how about 'saying Traveller is like Star Wars is like saying it's like the Commonwealth Saga, while it can be true they focus on different things'. The only problem with that is the immortality that's everywhere in the commonwealth saga but isn't present in Star Wars, it's significantly easier to run a Star Wars game with Traveller than balance the fact that wealthy enough characters can remove all the aging penalties.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-23, 07:42 AM

Traveller and Star Wars are the same like D&D 3e and Ars Magica are the same, or like Gamma World and Apocalypse World are the same...

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-23, 07:59 AM

Traveller and Star Wars are the same like D&D 3e and Ars Magica are the same

Swords exist and spellcasters are broken?

2D8HP

2017-07-23, 10:57 AM

IIRC thete was a Traveller supplement that "statted out" NPC's that were lifted from various science fiction stories. One of them was:

Harcourt "Harry" Fenton Mudd (http://www.startrek.com/article/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-harry-mudd-and-more)

from Star Trek .

Traveller's "Imperium" was not Star Trek's "Federation" or Star War's "Empire", it was it's own thing.

Some of the aliens in Traveller (http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/aliens.html) seemed to me to resemble the one's from Larry Niven's Known Space (Aslan = Kzinti, K'kree = Puppeteers) but the setting was not the same as Known Space either.

For the record I played Traveller before 1986 (the year I dropped out of Berkeley High School), and I never "got on-line" that year, or at all for over a decade afterwards, so I have no idea about "usenet", nor have I ever watched Firefly, which may resemble the standard Traveller setting, or may not, I don't know.

The first Traveller rulebooks didn't really have much of a setting, but with JTAS (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_the_Travellers_Aid_Society) and the adventures, one with the "Imperium" came in, not unlike how D&D came to have "Greyhawk".

As awesome as Traveller was, I think the OP may like Space 1889 (which also came from GDW) more anyway.

There was also later "2300 Traveller", and "Mega Traveller", which had different settings, but I never played them, nor did I know anyone who did.

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-23, 01:38 PM

In case it wasn't obvious, I agree with Knaight.

For the record, this is my idea of a standard Traveller game:
-A bunch of people in their late 20s to their 60s have a ship.
-They go from system to system, trying to find cargo and passengers to make the next mortgage and life support instalment.
-Tend to be a bit morally suspect, but still good people (this one will obviously depend on your game).
-There's a bunch of aliens, but most PCs are human and relatively ordinary.

This is Firefly:
-A bunch of people in their 20s to 40s (I think, don't know official character ages) have a ship.
-They go from planet to planet, trying to find cargo to make the next food payment.
-Not exactly good guys, but still decent people.
-A disturbing lack of Asians for a universe that is half Chinese.

This is Star Wars:
-Oh no, the empire is evil.
-Don't worry, the Rebellion will sort it out.
-There are wizards called Jedi, but they can only shift the balance not win it entire.
-Here are our group of larger than life heroes!

I think you can see why I use Firefly to explain what Traveller is.

But what I meant was RPG in space. Either you can accept what I said, or just call me a liar.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-23, 04:03 PM

But what I meant was RPG in space. Either you can accept what I said, or just call me a liar.

What you said was:

Traveller - Classic Edition (think star wars).

Feel free to click the link and go back to your original post, you'll see I've only cut out the relevant portions.

Now what you might has meant was 'it takes place in space', which is a thorny issue of it's own (does that mean I can say 'Traveller (think Eclipse Phase', they both take place in space), but there is no way to infer that from your original quote. You then went on to imply that it was obvious, and that I must be lacking in common sense for not seeing it (despite the fact I've read a lot of Space Opera, and quite a bit of science fiction that doesn't take place in space. I've recently begun watching Babylon 5*).

Secondly, your follow up to my comment (which in hindsight I could have worded a bit better, but I've snarked at people more in this thread) suggested I was using a list that was created before I was even born (1994 for your information, I've mentioned being 'relatively young' several times on this forum) that identified different types of science fiction instead of a 'that's kinds misrepresenting it, the default is much closer to Firefly'.

And yes, you should have used more words to be a bit more specific, or just put 'space opera' in the brackets. Almost nobody would have cared if you used 'space opera'.

Then, when Knaight gave an explanation for why I objected in the first place (which was pretty much spot on to my reasoning, thank you Knaight) you began to insult us. Because you 'shorted handed it' by misrepresenting it, and we said 'actually, in our experience they're rather different'. You also complained that we were saying you should have spent another whole minute writing 'set in space' rather than 'Star Wars', which is an extra three characters. Again, you implied we lack common sense, when actually we could probably see what you meant and came to the conclusion that you were misrepresenting the system.

I then explained my reasons for objecting, and you claimed I called you a liar (which I have not intentionally done, if I have done so I apologise, I simply disagreed with you assessment and offered an alternative one, and offered a reason [the character creation mechanics do not let you make two of the main characters]). For my proof, I present this quote:

But what I meant was RPG in space. Either you can accept what I said, or just call me a liar.

Now, leaving aside the fact that I can't prove the intent behind the original quote, I do believe you are not lying when saying what you meant. I do take issue with the second part, because what you said was 'Traveller was like Star Wars', which is technically opinion and as such cannot be definitively proven one way or another (although I have attempted to explain my viewpoint). As such I am freely able to say 'I actually think Traveller is closer to Firefly than Star Wars' without calling you a liar. In fact, reasonable people can have disagreements on things they deeply care about, and still act cordially with their friends (it happens a lot with me and religion, and you do not get elaboration).

If you are willing to have a discussion about this disagreement over whether 'Traveller - Classic Edition (think Star Wars)' is being fair to the system then I am willing to continue, but please don't start telling me that I should agree with you or claim you lied. In fact, it is entirely possible for me to agree with your intent but not your wording, your wording but not your intent, the first half of your wording but not the second, your intent provided it does not extend to muskrats, your wording but only in the context of Asimov's laws of robotics, your wording if every other word is ignored, your wording if every other consonant is ignored, or whatever I want, and it's completely legitimate. In this case I have chosen to agree with your intent (especially once it was made clear), but have chosen to disagree with your wording because I believe it creates implications that are incorrect.

I hope we can come to an understanding,

Anonymouswizard

* Heck, I wouldn't have cared if you had said 'Traveller - Classic Edition (think Babylon 5)', not only have official Traveller rules for Babylon 5 been released I think it's a good example of what a nontravelling game might be like.

daniel_ream

2017-08-05, 12:55 AM

If it helps any, while Traveller's Imperium is modeled after Asimov's Foundation (and Whedon's college Traveller game was the inspiration for Firefly), the most direct influence on the original Traveller game was E.C. Tubb's Dumarest saga.

Back on topic, I am a huge fan of the Cortex+ series of games. As a general rule, I find my group doesn't grok Fate because they have trouble with Aspects. For some reason, the various Cortex+ games work for them, despite being pretty much Fate with different dice mechanics.

If you want something unlike the games you've played before, try MWP's Smallville or Leverage. You need not stick to the original setting; despite the license, either are usable for generic "soap opera melodrama" or "heist movie" games.

You said you'e not interested in conventional superheroes so I won't plug Marvel Heroic Roleplaying.