OOTS #1084 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Durkoala

2017-07-20, 08:56 AM

This thread is going to be a debate about why she called Durkon high priest if the title was officially passed on.

yep! Why did Hel refer to the-vampire-of-uncertain-religious-rank as her high priest given that he gave up the title earlier? :smalltongue:

Still we now have a new name for Durkon*: the Low Priest of Hel, or LPoH, as he's equal in rank to the "official" high priest, but her inferior in height. :smallwink:

hagnat

2017-07-20, 08:58 AM

those poor tiny souls :frown:

Arkku

2017-07-20, 08:58 AM

It seems like Durkula's new outfit would be less suitable for combat than the previous armour?

Yklikt

2017-07-20, 08:59 AM

It seems like Durkula's new outfit would be less suitable for combat than the previous armour?

Maybe he can wear under it? But vampire no need so much armor also

pendell

2017-07-20, 08:59 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 09:01 AM

It seems like Durkula's new outfit would be less suitable for combat than the previous armour?

Sure, but more suitable for sneaking around. Also, do not underestimate the power of clerical spells to boost his armour. Durkon may have preferred to use his slots for other things, but Greg may have different opinions on which are the best spells to prepare.

GW

Unoriginal

2017-07-20, 09:03 AM

Interesting. I believe Roy was counting on the Thor priests to recognise his access token, right?

GW

Yes and no, the token is also a key to a private entrance for Thor's priests, so it can be used to bypass the border security regardless of if the priests are alive or not.

I suppose if there is any survivor to the attack who are aware the foes are vampires (so not people who just weren't there at the time for various reasons), they'd try to escape to the surface (thinking the sun can make them safe).

SilverCacaobean

2017-07-20, 09:03 AM

Damn. And Durkon's soul gets to see all this slaughter... That's a really messed up thing to do to someone who sacrificed himself to save his friends...

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 09:06 AM

Yes and no, the token is also a key to a private entrance for Thor's priests, so it can be used to bypass the border security regardless of if the priests are alive or not.

Indeed. I edited in that piece of information. Still, I'd expect some kind of payoff for the "token can only be given freely" exposition.

I suppose if there is any survivor to the attack who are aware the foes are vampires (so not people who just weren't there at the time for various reasons), they'd try to escape to the surface (thinking the sun can make them safe).

Did Greg ever figure out the protection from the Sun spell? Or did he always depend on the staff to cast it?

GW

Shining Wrath

2017-07-20, 09:14 AM

Well, that's not good. Vampires dining on priests with sufficient levels to cast lightning bolt may mean more clerics for Hel. Of course, the staff being gone means they have to be buried for several days before rising as vampires.

Surfing HalfOrc

2017-07-20, 09:16 AM

Dang, I thought (was hoping) the static on the line was Durkon regaining control.

That's a lot of vampires! Gonna be an ugly fight for Roy and the rest once they catch up!

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 09:19 AM

Dang, I thought (was hoping) the static on the line was Durkon regaining control.

It's a bit early for that, if it will happen at all. Durkon has barely figured out that his only advantage so far is that, as bad as he is at drawing conclusions, Greg is even worse. I'd expect that to be Durkon's "in" to clawing back some kind of control.

That's a lot of vampires! Gonna be an ugly fight for Roy and the rest once they catch up!

Most won't rise in time. Only the ones that left the moot with Durkon will be active when the Order arrives (it takes 3 days without the staff)

ETA: unless the staff spell is in Hel's domain, in which case I suppose we can't discard Greg simply casting it outright.

ETA2: Since the Mechane will arrive "before midnight", all the vampires will have just refreshed their spell slots, too.

Grey Wolf

Psyren

2017-07-20, 09:20 AM

It's shocking what some people will eat.

drink*

This thread is going to be a debate about why she called Durkon high priest if the title was officially passed on.

I would say it was passed on for the purposes of the Godsmoot. In Hel's view, Greg is still calling the shots.

Most won't rise in time. Only the ones that left the moot with Durkon will be active when the Order arrives (it takes 3 days without the staff)

It IS possible he extracted that spell from the staff too. We don't know how long it takes after all. He could have only been using the staff to do it at the GM for convenience.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 09:25 AM

It seems like Durkula's new outfit would be less suitable for combat than the previous armour?

I suspect that Greg sees physical combat as beneath him, especially with underlings, and as such has changed into more 'priestly' clothes.

I was honestly expecting the clerics to put up a bit more of a fight, but then again I suppose none of them are as strong as Greg is. Still, if he's dining on the priests he's not dining on any of the representatives.

I hope the reveal I sense coming is that Greg is worse at making plans than Belkar is lawful good.

*crosses fingers* first page first page first page...

Bluepaw

2017-07-20, 09:26 AM

The moment being depicted in the last panel is striking... The priest's eyes are X'd out, so he's crying out with his last breath. Is the lightning a last action, as it were, or some kind of involuntary effect?

Shining Wrath

2017-07-20, 09:28 AM

As a neutral-evil-is-my-guess deity (casts Summon Banana in case the Giant has ever issued an statement), Hel is perfectly willing to abide by the letter of the law while violating it. Which is to say, for purposes of the Godsmoot the vampire in the front was appointed High Priest; but if all Hel's priests were brought together, that vampire would still obey Greg, who presumably has more levels, title or no title.

Greg's the functional high priest, the vampire at the Godsmoot holds the title.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 09:32 AM

Still, if he's dining on the priests he's not dining on any of the representatives.

The plan is to force the representatives to vote in favour of world destruction, not just kill them. Whether what they intend to use is mind control, blackmail, convincing arguments or something else remains to be seen.

GW

GudBelkarIsGud

2017-07-20, 09:32 AM

So while I'm really happy to see the speedy pace of updates lately, the really anxious fanboy in me wants the updates even faster (argh!). I'm not sure I've wanted to see villains get their comeuppance more than I've wanted it for this particular batch of villains. What a difference having bad guys manipulating poor Durkon makes...

Quartz

2017-07-20, 09:33 AM

Two quick checks: the priest being killed is the priest who exiled Durkon, right? And, as he's being killed by vampire spawn, he's not going to rise as a vampire, right?

Chei

2017-07-20, 09:33 AM

Hahahaha, I totally thought *Durkon was trying to pretend the call was breaking up and he actually wanted to settle things with Roy.

Speaking of, he's been a fairly practical villain, 'missteps aside' (seriously, don't prematurely gloat). I like him!

Svata

2017-07-20, 09:35 AM

Well this does NOT look good for the order.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 09:36 AM

Two quick checks: the priest being killed is the priest who exiled Durkon, right?
He might be the one that physically threw him out, but the one who ordered it has been dead for years.

And, as he's being killed by vampire spawn, he's not going to rise as a vampire, right?

" A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion."
(source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm))

GW

Hiro Quester

2017-07-20, 09:37 AM

I'm loving this rate of new comics!

I followed for a short time the debate about the new name for the Cleric formerly known as Durkon (Durkula, HpoH, etc.). But I obviously missed something. How did "Greg" get settled on?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 09:40 AM

How did "Greg" get settled on?

It was not "settled" by any stretch of the mind, but panel 7 last suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html). Personally, once HPoH stopped being 100% accurate, Greg became the next best option.

GW

Unoriginal

2017-07-20, 09:40 AM

ETA2: Since the Mechane will arrive "before midnight", all the vampires will have just refreshed their spell slots, too.

Are you sure they'd have the time?

woweedd

2017-07-20, 09:41 AM

Well, that's messed-up.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 09:41 AM

Are you sure they'd have the time?

Yes, they refresh spells at dusk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html).

GW

Giggling Ghast

2017-07-20, 09:43 AM

Ugh. It disgusts my vampire-hunting soul to see these bloodsuckers have free reign to murder people.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 10:02 AM

The plan is to force the representatives to vote in favour of world destruction, not just kill them. Whether what they intend to use is mind control, blackmail, convincing arguments or something else remains to be seen.

GW

True, but drinking those who would vote 'no' will just increase the chances of Hel winning, and if Greg has learnt the fast turning spell they might be able to get around with vamping some of them and then pretending that no, really, they are on the same side.

The bonus with the priests being the ones being killed, even that phrase should never be uttered, is that they don't actually affect the result. At the moment nothing will change one way or the other no matter how many priests are drained, this changes as soon as the representatives are targeted (although I understand Greg wouldn't want to drain any before knowing what their vote would be).

goto124

2017-07-20, 10:03 AM

The frost giant god offered a massage. Looks like the consort thing is more than just about getting power...

True, but drinking those who would vote 'no' will just increase the chances of Hel winning

There are probably rules against your priest drinking the blood of [oh, sorry], and Hel's plan hinges on following the rules down to the letter.

Kardwill

2017-07-20, 10:05 AM

He might be the one that physically threw him out, but the one who ordered it has been dead for years.

GW

A real shame it isn't him, too.
Yeah, the exile scene left a bitter taste. I know throwing D. out could be justified and he was trying to save his people (in a pretty stupid way, though. Trying to break a prophecy with an exile? Especially a prophecy about the return of a destroyer?), but nobody forced him to be such a callous douchebag while doing it.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 10:08 AM

He offered a massage. Looks like the consort thing is more than just about getting power...

Yes, he's obviously smitten.

True, but drinking those who would vote 'no' will just increase the chances of Hel winning,

I doubt it, to be honest. Killing a representative probably means King Davlin will wait for their substitute.

GW

Kardwill

2017-07-20, 10:09 AM

I think there're rules against your priest drinking the blood of the other gods' priests, and Hel's plan hinges on following the rules down to the letter.

The guys who will vote here are not priests, but political leaders, unprotected by the rules of the godsmoot.

And as a general principle, a vampire priest drinking the blood of another priests seems to be a traditional diet and not a taboo in the OOTS world ^^
(See Malack vs Durkon, and HPoH against the Thor priests and the entire order of stone)

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 10:15 AM

There are probably rules against your priest drinking the blood of the other gods' priests, and Hel's plan hinges on following the rules down to the letter.

That'll just cause problems for her due to Greg's actions. I wasn't referring to Priests though

I doubt it, to be honest. Killing a representative probably means King Davlin will wait for their substitute.

GW

True, but if Greg has at least semi-reliable access to mind reading he could potentially keep killing replacements until he had a majority. Honestly, I'm just surprised he isn't already in the meeting place.

Windscion

2017-07-20, 10:20 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 10:22 AM

True, but if Greg has at least semi-reliable access to mind reading he could potentially keep killing replacements until he had a majority. Honestly, I'm just surprised he isn't already in the meeting place.

He is at the meeting place (Firmament). There is a certain degree of urgency to this scheme: Greg is powerful, but if the dwarves become aware of his actions, he will be destroyed in short order. From the moment he attacked the firmament priests, he is on a race against the clock: when other priests learn of this, they will attack and Greg will lose. He needs Dvalin to vote before then. Delaying the vote by killing representatives is against his interests.

Metatextually, too, we are on a race against time in this book. Rich is not going to slow down the action while clan representatives get re-elected.

GW

Yendor

2017-07-20, 10:23 AM

Personally, once HPoH stopped being 100% accurate, Greg became the next best option.

I just wish I'd thought of "Durcon" earlier.

Yes, he's obviously smitten.

Not the only way he's going to be smitten, if he doesn't back off.

warmachine

2017-07-20, 10:25 AM

It's sad indictment of the dwarves that their priesthood can be taken down so easily. Even worse, by undead.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 10:27 AM

It's sad indictment of the dwarves that their priesthood can be taken down so easily. Even worse, by undead.

Do not underestimate the power of surprise. Also, Firmament is hardly the place where you'd expect to find the most powerful priests (it's not the dwarven capital). It does have a major temple of Thor (which explains Blue Hat), but otherwise, I'd expect low-level priests. So Greg only had to make sure that the Thor guy went down (and yet he managed to outlast all others)

GW

CoffeeIncluded

2017-07-20, 10:34 AM

Knowing that the people killed by vampires are trapped in their bodies makes this even worse.

Onyavar

2017-07-20, 10:36 AM

It was not "settled" by any stretch of the mind, but panel 7 last suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html). Personally, once HPoH stopped being 100% accurate, Greg became the next best option.

GW

Well, Phrynglsnyx was a serious contender, too. As were Nokrud and Durkula.

Though, Undurkon has won the competition, by virtue of being the first one mentioned (*leftmost, the first to cross the finishing line) in #1030 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html).

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 10:37 AM

Well, Phrynglsnyx was a serious contender, too. As were Nokrud and Durkula.

Though, Undurkon has won the competition, by virtue of being the first one mentioned (*leftmost, the first to cross the finishing line) in #1030 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html).

Which is why I said it was not "settled". The rest is my own personal preference, rather than attempting to guess what the overall forum preference is.

GW

Chei

2017-07-20, 10:41 AM

Do not underestimate the power of surprise. Also, Firmament is hardly the place where you'd expect to find the most powerful priests (it's not the dwarven capital). It does have a major temple of Thor (which explains Blue Hat), but otherwise, I'd expect low-level priests. So Greg only had to make sure that the Thor guy went down (and yet he managed to outlast all others)

GW

One thing I'm wondering is this: Thrym, as a demigod, had at least one cleric outside his high priest (explicitly stated to be his strongest) capable of 6th-level spells. I wonder how many more a bona fide god like Thor would have?

We've also seen a decent-sized city this book that had no priests capable of casting 7th-level spells. I think that's still a very rare level of power in this world, and you can't expect folks like that to just be on scene when disaster strikes.

Man, I want to know weird stuff about the spellcaster demographics of the OOTS world more than is actually reasonable. Definitely more than needed to enjoy the story.

goto124

2017-07-20, 10:43 AM

We're Playgrounders, it's not exactly strange to want to know :smallwink:

Kish

2017-07-20, 10:46 AM

The forum culture is ironic, considering Rich's disregard for such things.

Quibblicious

2017-07-20, 10:49 AM

The last few strips were a beautifully crafted segue from the Mechane to the HPoH & his minions.

That was very nicely done.

Q
Who appreciates good story telling with slick transitions.

The MunchKING

2017-07-20, 10:54 AM

Hel: "Thrym has failed to stop the dwarf's allies."

I'm not good at this corner-case grammar, but that sounds to me like "Durkon's allies" not "allies of the dwarves." Which is an interesting emphasis. It implies that, in the back of her mind, Hel still regards Durkon as a gamepiece.

I think it's supposed to be "King Ask-For-The-Will-of-the-Council" guy's allies (in that he doesn't want to sign over all the dwarves' souls to Hel, and Roy & all are trying to help) since he was a Dwarf who ascended to Godhood, but it could also be the High Priest of Thor I guess.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 10:57 AM

I think it's supposed to be "King Ask-For-The-Will-of-the-Council" guy's allies (in that he doesn't want to sign over all the dwarves' souls to Hel, and Roy & all are trying to help) since he was a Dwarf who ascended to Godhood, but it could also be the High Priest of Thor I guess.

All possible, but I suspect that it did mean Durkon, and was meant more for the comic readers than anything else.

GW

MReav

2017-07-20, 11:00 AM

Two quick checks: the priest being killed is the priest who exiled Durkon, right? And, as he's being killed by vampire spawn, he's not going to rise as a vampire, right?

The guy who exiled him is dead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)

Storm_Of_Snow

2017-07-20, 11:03 AM

The bonus with the priests being the ones being killed, even that phrase should never be uttered, is that they don't actually affect the result.
I'd have said the bonus is that when the order turns up, tells everyone what's going on and Durkula and co get confronted, there's less clerics around that can throw things like Turn Undead (which, depending on the levels of clerics around, might not affect Durkula, but could well affect others) and Cure Wound Spells at them.

hamishspence

2017-07-20, 11:04 AM

The guy who exiled him is dead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)

And here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html) is his replacement receiving the message and preparing to write back (flashback).

Kantaki

2017-07-20, 11:04 AM

Well, now I'm thirsty.:smallamused:

And wow. Thrym should really learn when it is time to shut up.
He's so fortunate none of his followers are there to witness this.

Anarion

2017-07-20, 11:19 AM

I'm surprised Hel is apparently so strict about her regularly scheduled check-ins. I'd have just waited to call her until the, uh..static,had subsided. Maybe show off some of the new ranks.

Ruck

2017-07-20, 11:24 AM

Hel: "Thrym has failed to stop the dwarf's allies."

I'm not good at this corner-case grammar, but that sounds to me like "Durkon's allies" not "allies of the dwarves." Which is an interesting emphasis. It implies that, in the back of her mind, Hel still regards Durkon as a gamepiece.
I think you are correct.

Indeed. I edited in that piece of information. Still, I'd expect some kind of payoff for the "token can only be given freely" exposition.

:elan: Ooh, Roy, what's that?
:roy: Elan, don't touch--
:elan: *grabs stone*
*stone crumbles*

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 11:25 AM

I'm surprised Hel is apparently so strict about her regularly scheduled check-ins. I'd have just waited to call her until the, uh..static,had subsided. Maybe show off some of the new ranks.

Yeah, but think how many fewer punchlines we would get if they did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html).

GW

Yendor

2017-07-20, 11:42 AM

I'm surprised Hel is apparently so strict about her regularly scheduled check-ins. I'd have just waited to call her until the, uh..static,had subsided. Maybe show off some of the new ranks.

Maybe it's scheduled so she can use it as an excuse to get rid of Thrym.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 11:43 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 11:47 AM

Wait, are these dwarves dying with honour? This could be counter to Hel's plans. Maybe it'll turn out that because he allowed more dwarves than necessary to slip past Hel Greg's spells won't be replenished today, and it'll be an easier fight for the order.
1) Whether they died with honor or not is irrelevant: the souls are now trapped in their bodies.
2) A handful of souls isn't going to make much of a difference. Hel is used to running on fumes.
3) Not sure why you think that, say, Thor getting an extra soul today would change how many spells Greg can get

(I am assuming that, when the world is unmade vampires will be as well, and the souls trapped within them will go to their proper afterlife)
That would be the case unless the vampires plane shift, which they could. But not sure how this impacts what spells Greg gets at dusk today.

Grey Wolf

Neoriceisgood

2017-07-20, 11:49 AM

Loving this update rate, always happy to see OoTS pop up in my RSS feed.

:smalleek: Outfit change definitely makes Durkula seem more evil.

The MunchKING

2017-07-20, 11:51 AM

3) Not sure why you think that, say, Thor getting an extra soul today would change how many spells Greg can get

I think he was going for "Hel will be annoyed that HPoH let more souls go to the others when she's trying to get them all, and revoke his spellcasting privileges". Which would be incredibly short-sighted of her. And kind of dumb because she's never had a high level cleric before. May he thinks because of this she'll overreact?

KorvinStarmast

2017-07-20, 11:51 AM

yep! Why did Hel refer to the-vampire-of-uncertain-religious-rank as her high priest given that he gave up the title earlier? :smalltongue: It is acceptable to believe that the ruse about "frontarchy" was a lie. Evil.

It was not "settled" by any stretch of the mind,
Durkula.

Well, Phrynglsnyx was a serious contender, too. As were Nokrud and Durkula.
Durkula.

Psyren

2017-07-20, 11:55 AM

I use "Greg" because it's funny, and also easier to distinguish than my preferred moniker (Darkon.)

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 12:08 PM

I think he was going for "Hel will be annoyed that HPoH let more souls go to the others when she's trying to get them all, and revoke his spellcasting privileges". Which would be incredibly short-sighted of her. And kind of dumb because she's never had a high level cleric before. May he thinks because of this she'll overreact?

Like this. I mean, I don't see a full revoke of his spellcasting privileges, but I certain do see either not getting a full refresh (potentially in a 'you don't need all of your spells to beat the Order' way [she does have a decent number of vampire clerics there]) or losing some of his big guns due to having to prepare Plane Shift to get the vampires to safety.

I'm certainly expecting Hel to overreact (assuming this isn't part of her plan, I think it's unlikely but will admit that her getting a clergy ready for the next world is possible), and was purposefully exaggerating, but I do expect one or more of the Clerics to not have all their high level spells available.

What happens if, say, Greg and gang take these new corpses and bury them on another plane. Will they rise as vampires with their souls trapped after the world has ended? I can see that as being a potential reason for the Giant to make this a more even fight.

Kish

2017-07-20, 12:11 PM

I find it unlikely in the extreme that Hel wants Greg to avoid killing dwarves or dwarven priests.

And in general, this "this might be a way Rich can weaken Greg before he fights the Order" strikes me as a solution to a nonexistent problem.

hamishspence

2017-07-20, 12:12 PM

I use "Greg" because it's funny, and also easier to distinguish than my preferred moniker (Darkon.)

The problem I have with Greg is that it's too mundane - at first every time I saw it, I wondered for a few moments if it was some random NPC - maybe a Mechane crewer or shopkeeper - before remembering that strip where the Order list possible names.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 12:14 PM

I don't see a full revoke of his spellcasting privileges, but I certain do see either not getting a full refresh

This is an assertion needing a lot more reasoning to back it up. Why would Hel care how many Thor priests Greg kills? It is necessary to get them out of the way to ensure the plan goes forward, she doesn't care for Thor, so weakening him is fine; there is literally no downside I can see from Hel's perspective.

GW

Aahz

2017-07-20, 12:19 PM

Can someone fill me in on the subtext / discussion here? Who resigned as her high priest? Who is Greg? This isn't Durkula? If not, where is he?

/confused

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 12:22 PM

This is an assertion needing a lot more reasoning to back it up. Why would Hel care how many Thor priests Greg kills? It is necessary to get them out of the way to ensure the plan goes forward, she doesn't care for Thor, so weakening him is fine; there is literally no downside I can see from Hel's perspective.

GW

Again, that was working under the assumption that if she succeeded the corpses would be unmade and the souls set free. Assuming they count as dying with honour they would then go to their normal afterlives, while if they'd been killed in the unmaking of the world then Hel would have received their souls instead.

In all honesty, the more I think about it the more Greg's actions make sense, assuming he's planning to stash the corpses somewhere they won't be destroyed for three days in order to give Hel a ready made clergy. In the event the world isn't destroyed she now has more influence on the world, in the event it is destroyed she begins with high level clerics when the rest of the gods have to start from level one again. Of course, the world will be unmade as soon as the vote is finished (or 'as soon as' in a divine timescale), so I suspect that Greg and company will have plane shift spells ready to shift the corpses to another plane when necessary.

Kish

2017-07-20, 12:22 PM

Nonexistent. There was never a character of that name.

Greg's actions make sense even if it costs Hel a few (or a few dozen) souls out of the millions she expects, because telling him not to kill dwarves as necessary would be ridiculously hobbling him, and (as recently discussed in the comic actually) he can't exactly strike them down with "you die of disease RIGHT NOW!"

georgie_leech

2017-07-20, 12:23 PM

Can someone fill me in on the subtext / discussion here? Who resigned as her high priest? Who is Greg? This isn't Durkula? If not, where is he?

/confused

In order: Durkula, Durkula, it is him, and in a stone building or tunnel by the looks of things.

B. Dandelion

2017-07-20, 12:27 PM

The problem I have with Greg is that it's too mundane

Some call him... Greg?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 12:29 PM

Can someone fill me in on the subtext / discussion here? Who resigned as her high priest? Who is Greg? This isn't Durkula? If not, where is he?

/confused

Greg (panel 7, last suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html))

Greg resigning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html) as High Priest of Hel

Again, that was working under the assumption that if she succeeded the corpses would be unmade and the souls set free. Assuming they count as dying with honour they would then go to their normal afterlives, while if they'd been killed in the unmaking of the world then Hel would have received their souls instead.
OK, but that assumption is false, as I already said, and yet you continue to build your case on it. It is also ridiculous than in a world were thousands die every day, a handful of souls would even register in the gods' calculations. Hel is poised to gain millions of souls. 12 more or less is not even a drop in the bucket.

In all honesty, the more I think about it the more Greg's actions make sense, assuming he's planning to stash the corpses somewhere they won't be destroyed for three days in order to give Hel a ready made clergy.
If she wins, Hel will be able to recruit clergy from living beings, AND she will be the most powerful being of the North of the new world. Having a handful of extra clerics won't make a major difference.

In the event the world isn't destroyed she now has more influence on the world, in the event it is destroyed she begins with high level clerics when the rest of the gods have to start from level one again.
From the gods perspective, "level" of the cleric is not as relevant as how charismatic they are and thus how many followers they get. Vampires would probably not make for great PR, even for a death goddess. But more to the point, that is so completely removed from the actual plan that I don't think it is a consideration at all. She will have plenty of power to make sure she has a powerful clergy in the new world.

GW

Canuck617

2017-07-20, 12:32 PM

That... is an absolutely horrifying title for this or any strip considering its double entendre.

I would expect the resignation was a formality only. And if Hel wanted to re-appoint that vampire to the position, I see no reason she couldn't.

I hate every second this villain is on-panel and the sooner he gets his comeuppance, the happier I will be.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I second this, in that there is no reason that the title of HPoH couldn't have easily been returned to Durkon* off-panel. (Personally, I was a fan of "Durkoff" but I appreciate the simplicity of "Greg".) In fact, Hel referring to Durkon* as her high priest points to such return. (It's either that, or it shows ignorance of the title transfer in the first place, proving how meaningless it actually is if the deity doesn't automatically know when said title is transferred, at least in Hel's case. (And if it's that meaningless to Hel, why should we care?) Between the two, I think it's the off-panel title return.)

I, too, cannot wait for the mental asterisk to be removed from Durkon*'s name.

Throknor

2017-07-20, 12:36 PM

Knowing that the people killed by vampires are trapped in their bodies makes this even worse.

Is this proven as an absolute? Durkon was trapped when he was turned into a vampire.

...The vampirization process basically jammed up the normal disposition of Durkon's soul by trapping it inside the undead body. Where Durkon's actual soul ends up will not be determined until/unless it is freed. It's a like a naturally occurring Trap the Soul spell. ...

Just because they are draining the dwarves doesn't necessitate that their souls are trapped forever. Of course the normal vampirization process takes three days. It is possible the mechanics are that the blood drain does trap the soul at least temporarily and it is automatically released in three days if it doesn't occur (rather than it leaving and being drawn back).

On the flip side of this, it is possible the spell he actually researched from the staff is the rapid vampirization spell. I just re-read through the books and it occurred to me a) Greg did not have time vampirize all of the ushers and b) he had his staff with him in the nave. I base this on him entering almost seconds after Roy; that barely seems like enough time for the fight with Belkar and the two ushers we know for sure he attacked himself.

In which case things are not going to end well for the dwarves.

8BitNinja

2017-07-20, 12:36 PM

Now I'm wondering how an aura massage would work.

Lord Torath

2017-07-20, 12:37 PM

I second this, in that there is no reason that the title of HPoH couldn't have easily been returned to Durkon* off-panel. (Personally, I was a fan of "Durkoff" but I appreciate the simplicity of "Greg".) In fact, Hel referring to Durkon* as her high priest points to such return. (It's either that, or it shows ignorance of the title transfer in the first place, proving how meaningless it actually is if the deity doesn't automatically know when said title is transferred, at least in Hel's case. (And if it's that meaningless to Hel, why should we care?) Between the two, I think it's the off-panel title return.)

I, too, cannot wait for the mental asterisk to be removed from Durkon*'s name.Yes, there is. If "Nose-fur-atu" *officially* reclaims the title of High Priest of Hel, that means Hel no longer has a representative at the Godsmoot, and thus loses her vote. So he can only unofficially be high priest until the tie is broken.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 12:41 PM

Is this proven as an absolute? Durkon was trapped when he was turned into a vampire.
It has worked that way for both Malack (by word of Rich) and Durkon (as seen in the comic), so it is pretty much canon.

GW

Kish

2017-07-20, 01:06 PM

I second this, in that there is no reason that the title of HPoH couldn't have easily been returned to Durkon* off-panel.
There is every reason; there would no longer be a High Priest at the Godsmoot, the No voters would have it, the demigods' votes would be irrelevant, and the current book's plot arc would have been resolved already, at the level of "Hel forgot there was a reason not to push the big red DON'T PUSH THAT button."

JoeyTheNeko

2017-07-20, 01:13 PM

eep indeed.

Psychronia

2017-07-20, 01:15 PM

I'm going to try to reframe this narrative more optimistically.

After the Order finishes beating all those vampires, they'll probably have gotten stronger and better prepared for a battle with Xykon.

factotum

2017-07-20, 01:17 PM

There is every reason; there would no longer be a High Priest at the Godsmoot, the No voters would have it, the demigods' votes would be irrelevant, and the current book's plot arc would have been resolved already, at the level of "Hel forgot there was a reason not to push the big red DON'T PUSH THAT button."

Of course, these are just names. The vampire at the Godsmoot may hold the title of High Priest as far as the other attendees are concerned, but to Hel, Durkula is still her High Priest and so she calls him that.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 01:18 PM

From the gods perspective, "level" of the cleric is not as relevant as how charismatic they are and thus how many followers they get. Vampires would probably not make for great PR, even for a death goddess. But more to the point, that is so completely removed from the actual plan that I don't think it is a consideration at all. She will have plenty of power to make sure she has a powerful clergy in the new world.

GW

Just reread the bit of the comic I was thinking of, it was how Hel needed a high enough level cleric now, whereas I had originally just read it as Hel wanting high level clerics to influence the world.

Although having a bunch of clerics to influence the world would still be a plus to Hel (as she's worked out how hard it can be when you don't have any clerics), and I still say having a bunch of heavy hitters around to influence the world while everyone else only has low level clerics will be useful even if not required. Hel having a bunch of agents to do stuff in addition to her new priesthood in a new world would be a bonus, but not as big as I assumed (due to the admitted misreading).

Canuck617

2017-07-20, 01:40 PM

Yes, there is. If "Nose-fur-atu" *officially* reclaims the title of High Priest of Hel, that means Hel no longer has a representative at the Godsmoot, and thus loses her vote. So he can only unofficially be high priest until the tie is broken.

There is every reason; there would no longer be a High Priest at the Godsmoot, the No voters would have it, the demigods' votes would be irrelevant, and the current book's plot arc would have been resolved already, at the level of "Hel forgot there was a reason not to push the big red DON'T PUSH THAT button."

...Oh yeah. Then I guess Hel doesn't care, as in "What? You gave away your title at the Godsmoot? Okay, my high priest."

dtilque

2017-07-20, 01:42 PM

Now I'm wondering how an aura massage would work.

Probably much like a chair massage (http://dilbert.com/strip/1997-11-03)

AutomatedTeller

2017-07-20, 01:42 PM

I thought Greg took the Exarch and left the others at the Godsmoot? Where did the 3rd one come from?

Svata

2017-07-20, 01:44 PM

I thought Greg took the Exarch and left the others at the Godsmoot? Where did the 3rd one come from?

There's 4 of them. See the second panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html).

dtilque

2017-07-20, 01:49 PM

I thought Greg took the Exarch and left the others at the Godsmoot? Where did the 3rd one come from?

He took three others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html), since those were the only ones who managed to make it to him past Roy and the priests.

ETA: ninja'd, dammit.

White Magic

2017-07-20, 02:07 PM

xroads

2017-07-20, 02:14 PM

Awesome! So the plot thickens. The heroes are being spied on and the villains are ahead of the game.

Also, for now on, whenever my phone is experiencing difficulties, I'm going to assume it's because of an epic battle involving Thor's worshipers. That is just some cool imagery. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence

2017-07-20, 02:18 PM

Hel says Undurkon "pulls his weight" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html) of 160-180 lbs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)). How much should Thrym pull to do the same?

Nearly 20 times as much - 2800 lb is standard for frost giants:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#frostGiant

Skull the Troll

2017-07-20, 02:29 PM

I would expect the resignation was a formality only. And if Hel wanted to re-appoint that vampire to the position, I see no reason she couldn't.

I hate every second this villain is on-panel and the sooner he gets his comeuppance, the happier I will be.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ok yeah I'm going there.

If Durkon is the actual high priest then Hel's vote has been invalidated at the godsmoot. All the High Priests must remain at the moot. That's why he resigned in the first place. She's a evil being so shenanigans are to be expected but it would be interesting if anyone else found out. That said I don't think that's much of a resolution to this arc so I doubt that's the direction the Giant is going.

White Magic

2017-07-20, 02:37 PM

Nearly 20 times as much - 2800 lb is standard for frost giants:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#frostGiant

Thrym isn't a frost giant, he's a "Gargantuan Outsider Deity" weighing in at 32000 to 250000 lbs per "Deities and Demigods (https://dnd.rem.uz/3.5%20D%26D%20Books/Deities%20And%20Demigods.pdf)" Is there anything more precise for Thrym's weight?

KorvinStarmast

2017-07-20, 02:51 PM

She's a evil being so shenanigans are to be expected .. We have an accord.

runeghost

2017-07-20, 02:51 PM

Of course, these are just names. The vampire at the Godsmoot may hold the title of High Priest as far as the other attendees are concerned, but to Hel, Durkula is still her High Priest and so she calls him that.

I have not perused the books for many years, but my recollection of early D&D was that 'High Priest' was the title applied to any sufficiently high-level cleric, much like 18th level Magic-Users were Archmages. So Hel would have a High Priest of her religion which would be a designated political (theocratic?) office, and any high-leveled clerics in her service would also have the rank of High Priest that reflects their abilities.

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-07-20, 03:05 PM

Well, I'm still going to call him the High Priest of Hel. It can't possibly be more confusing than Greg.

I love how Thrym is still trying to get onto Hel's good side.

Those poor dwarves. I wonder what Durkon is thinking about right now.

White Magic

2017-07-20, 03:15 PM

'High Priest' was the title applied to any sufficiently high-level cleric, much like 18th level Magic-Users were Archmages. So Hel would have a High Priest of her religion which would be a designated political (theocratic?) office, and any high-leveled clerics in her service would also have the rank of High Priest that reflects their abilities.

Nice. in D&D Edition 1 (http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/adnd/classesandkits/level.html) (I admit to playing that decades ago), "High Priest" is any cleric above level 8. Undurkon could still legitimately be called HPoH.

Kish

2017-07-20, 03:34 PM

I have not perused the books for many years, but my recollection of early D&D was that 'High Priest' was the title applied to any sufficiently high-level cleric, much like 18th level Magic-Users were Archmages. So Hel would have a High Priest of her religion which would be a designated political (theocratic?) office, and any high-leveled clerics in her service would also have the rank of High Priest that reflects their abilities.
Immaterial. In that edition Durkon, as a subhuman, couldn't possibly be the level he is now and it'd be a crazy sadistic DM who let a monster also be a high-level cleric. (Much less someone who was two monsters at once--I mean, lizardmen, and no they weren't called lizardfolk, with class levels, much less vampire lizardfolkmen? Madness! MADNESS!)

anonynos

2017-07-20, 03:36 PM

Nice. in D&D Edition 1 (http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/adnd/classesandkits/level.html) (I admit to playing that decades ago), "High Priest" is any cleric above level 8. Undurkon could still legitimately be called HPoH.

So he's more /a/ High Priest of Hel, not /the/ High Priest of Hel. On on hand this seems the kind of technical thing that is more in Loki's camp than Hel's, but in this case maybe she's taking after her dad...

JumboWheat01

2017-07-20, 03:38 PM

"Well at least SOMEBODY is pulling their weight around here."
"Not fair! He's very tiny, his weight is a lot less than mine!"

I may have giggled at that exchange a little more than I probably should have.

Also, dwarven wizard! YAY! I love me some dwarven wizards.

Samzat

2017-07-20, 03:41 PM

Im predicting a 90% chance that the OOTS will get there just before the vote is cast to stop Durkula

Kish

2017-07-20, 03:47 PM

Also, dwarven wizard! YAY! I love me some dwarven wizards.
I can relate to that enough to regret to say that he's probably a cleric of Thor and that's Thor's Lightning.

Anonymouswizard

2017-07-20, 03:53 PM

So he's more /a/ High Priest of Hel, not /the/ High Priest of Hel. On on hand this seems the kind of technical thing that is more in Loki's camp than Hel's, but in this case maybe she's taking after her dad...

I personally read it as Greg not actually having a name, and so Hel just uses his (ex) title. Of course, it's also possible that he holds the rank of high priest due to their level.

Or potentially he's high priest of this congregation dedicated to Hel, but not The High Priest of Hel, which is a separate rank. Same technicalities, but one I see most deities using for their hierarchies.

Im predicting a 90% chance that the OOTS will get there just before the vote is cast to stop Durkula

Please, Elan wouldn't let them arrive any earlier.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 04:22 PM

It seems like Durkula's new outfit would be less suitable for combat than the previous armour?

Armor is completely useless at his level anyway. Roy's got to be at LEAST level 15, so with all his stuff he's going to have about a +30 attack. How high of quality is Durkon's armor, anyway? He hasn't changed it since the comic started, so +1? He also almost certainly doesn't have a dex bonus, and his shield is also unlikely to be anything special. So his AC in total is what, at BEST 21 or 22, Roy's attacks have a 95%, 95% and 90% chance to hit. The rest of the party's a little worse in attack but not enough for that armor to do anything anyway, especially since Vaarsuvius is the main damage dealer and heshe ignores AC entirely. Armor isn't worth using at his level. At all.

Keltest

2017-07-20, 04:35 PM

Armor is completely useless at his level anyway. Roy's got to be at LEAST level 15, so with all his stuff he's going to have about a +30 attack. How high of quality is Durkon's armor, anyway? He hasn't changed it since the comic started, so +1? He also almost certainly doesn't have a dex bonus, and his shield is also unlikely to be anything special. So his AC in total is what, at BEST 21 or 22, Roy's attacks have a 95%, 95% and 90% chance to hit. The rest of the party's a little worse in attack but not enough for that armor to do anything anyway, especially since Vaarsuvius is the main damage dealer and heshe ignores AC entirely. Armor isn't worth using at his level. At all.

I seem to recall all of Durkon's equipment being ancestral, so it could be anything from +1 to +5. I also seem to recall Roy's equally ancestral sword being a +3 before it was broken and reforged, but I don't remember for sure.

Quebbster

2017-07-20, 04:44 PM

ManuelSacha

2017-07-20, 04:45 PM

Wait.
Did Durkon* mean "contingency" (plan) or "contingency" (spell)?
Or both?

Keltest

2017-07-20, 04:52 PM

Wait.
Did Durkon* mean "contingency" (plan) or "contingency" (spell)?
Or both?

the plan, probably. I hope that OOTS never gets silly about the contingency spell.

woweedd

2017-07-20, 05:01 PM

We've seen the high priest of the twelve gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) before, and then during the Godsmoot we saw other, presumably high, priests of the twelve gods. It's not that strange that the church of Hel might have similar title structures.
The real problem is that the vampire has no real name, so even Hel is forced to refer to him by title.
OK, firstly, The High Priest of the Twelve Gods isn't in that comic. He's in this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

Secondly, He was the High Priest of the pantheon as a whole, whereas the guys we saw at the Southern Godsmoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)were presumably the High Priests of each individual God. Notice how they're laid out in a wheel, like the Twelve Gods are when they strike down Miko? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) That, presumably ,shows which God each represents. It makes sense for the Southe to have this system since, unlike the North, it appears that Most Southerners don't so much worship any particular God. Rather, they worship the Pantheon as a whole. Notably, even characters of vastly different Alignments can seemingly worship and even derive power from the Pantheon without issue. The High Priest is presumably Good, but Tsukiko also gets her powers from the Twelve Gods and she's Evil. It's an odd system, to be sure.

Quebbster

2017-07-20, 05:05 PM

Note to self: Never post links from my phone. I have no idea why that link got pasted in after I found the correct strip and copied the adress. No, I don't think Elan is the twelve's high priest.

JumboWheat01

2017-07-20, 05:08 PM

Note to self: Never post links from my phone. I have no idea why that link got pasted in after I found the correct strip and copied the adress. No, I don't think Elan is the twelve's high priest.

But he is the High Priest of Banjo!

Shining Wrath

2017-07-20, 05:25 PM

But he is the High Priest of Banjo!

And therefore can break the tie at the Godsmoot!

Smacks self.

Hardcore

2017-07-20, 05:36 PM

Greg. I don't get it. Why is that funny?

are

2017-07-20, 05:45 PM

Interesting how it's only Greg who seems fixated on killing Roy. Hel doesn't actually seem to care if the Order live or die, but Greg is the one who uses the words "kill Greenhilt" instead of "secure the meeting" or other phrasing.

5 bucks says this fixation will be the cause of his downfall. For all his talk at the Godsmoot of being Hel's chosen servant and sublimating his desires for the plan, he's really got a chip on his shoulder about making sure Roy knows he's more powerful.

Though he hasn't actually fought the whole Order at full power, and the only thing stopping Roy from continuing to wipe the floor with him post-green-fire was the antilife shell.

woweedd

2017-07-20, 06:02 PM

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 06:05 PM

And, now, the anti-life shell will do somewhere between "diddly" and "squat."

I wouldn't go that far. It'll stop Roy and Belkar, and Elan if he failed to learn offensive spells. It just won't stop Haley (who won't do much without her sneak attack) and Vaarsuvies (who will batter him good).

are

2017-07-20, 06:08 PM

I wouldn't go that far. It'll stop Roy and Belkar, and Elan if he failed to learn offensive spells. It just won't stop Haley (who won't do much without her sneak attack) and Vaarsuvies (who will batter him good).

Well, since that first fight Roy has learned how to reliably ignite his sword, throw it, and teleport it back to him on command. I'd say that the antilife shell won't stop him anymore.

Elan and Belkar, sure, though their efforts might be better focused on battling spawn. With their abysmal will saves they should stay far away from the gaze of a more powerful vampire.

Riftwolf

2017-07-20, 06:10 PM

Lightning against vampires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you... A failed Knowledge (Religion) check!

Chei

2017-07-20, 06:22 PM

Well, since that first fight Roy has learned how to reliably ignite his sword, throw it, and teleport it back to him on command. I'd say that the antilife shell won't stop him anymore.

Elan and Belkar, sure, though their efforts might be better focused on battling spawn. With their abysmal will saves they should stay far away from the gaze of a more powerful vampire.

I believe two of the turned clerics are spawn. Belkar could dust them on his own. The Exarch Hammerfell is definitely the real deal, though, since "high level spell slots" has very little overlap with "HD < 5".

Keltest

2017-07-20, 06:29 PM

Lightning against vampires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you... A failed Knowledge (Religion) check!

I don't recall vampires as having any particular resistance to lightning :smallconfused:

Matt620

2017-07-20, 06:34 PM

The shorn beard look...actually not half bad for Durkon. Why ditch the armor, though?

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 06:35 PM

The shorn beard look...actually not half bad for Durkon. Why ditch the armor, though?

It's useless?

are

2017-07-20, 06:39 PM

It's useless?

Why would it be useless? Without it and his shield, his AC suffers by about 9 points (13 if you assume he's casting Magic Vestment on it every day).

More likely it was an infiltration ruse, since the vampire's spirit wears armor inside Durkon's head.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 06:43 PM

Why would it be useless? Without it and his shield, his AC suffers by about 9 points (13 if you assume he's casting Magic Vestment on it every day).

More likely it was an infiltration ruse, since the vampire's spirit wears armor inside Durkon's head.

Everything that is any threat to him at all has an attack bonus higher than his entire AC and only misses on a 1, and most of the big threats ignore both armor and shield bonuses entirely, or don't use attack rolls in the first place. Armor is less useful the higher your level becomes, by his it only really helps against power attack.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-07-20, 06:46 PM

I don't recall vampires as having any particular resistance to lightning :smallconfused:

They have resistance to electricity 10.

Keltest

2017-07-20, 06:46 PM

Everything that is any threat to him at all has an attack bonus higher than his entire AC and only misses on a 1, and most of the big threats ignore both armor and shield bonuses entirely.

Only if you consider Roy to be the only one capable of posing a threat to him. Haley, for example, will only have about two thirds of Roy's base attack bonus. Furthermore, the armor will help protect against Roy's (and Haley's, and Elan's) additional attacks, which are not made at full BAB.

are

2017-07-20, 06:53 PM

Everything that is any threat to him at all has an attack bonus higher than his entire AC and only misses on a 1, and most of the big threats ignore both armor and shield bonuses entirely, or don't use attack rolls in the first place. Armor is less useful the higher your level becomes, by his it only really helps against power attack.

You mean Roy? Sure, he has a +26 to hit on his first attack (+14 BAB, +5 from his weapon, +7 STR bonus), but Durkon's AC in full plate is something like 32 (20 for full plate and shield with +1 dex bonus, +6 vampire natural armor, +3 magic vestment on armor, +3 magic vestment on shield), which means Roy is only likely to land his first attack of the round.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 07:01 PM

Only if you consider Roy to be the only one capable of posing a threat to him. Haley, for example, will only have about two thirds of Roy's base attack bonus. Furthermore, the armor will help protect against Roy's (and Haley's, and Elan's) additional attacks, which are not made at full BAB.

So, Roy has, if I were to guess, +15 BAB, +8 Strength, a +5 sword, +1 weapon focus. So, total +29. His second and third attacks are at +24 and +19. That's only his last attack has any real chance of missing, and if he moves he makes a single attack that WILL hit, full stop.

Haley is higher level than Roy, since he died and she went on to be a resistance leader. I'd peg her at +12 BAB, +5 dex (ish), +5 bow. So total +22, her first attack has no real chance to miss, but her next two do. Problem is she's useless against undead, so who cares?

Belkar, I have no idea. Doesn't matter, anyway, he'll be stabbing teammates the moment durkon looks at him. Quite literally.

Elan'a rapier won't do anything and AC won't matter if he casts spells.

But really, Vaarsuvius is the big threat and heshe's a spellcaster so AC doesn't do anything against himher. When V casts sunburst for 16d6 damage, what good is Durkula's armor?

Keltest

2017-07-20, 07:01 PM

You mean Roy? Sure, he has a +26 to hit on his first attack (+14 BAB, +5 from his weapon, +7 STR bonus), but Durkon's AC in full plate is something like 32 (20 for full plate and shield with +1 dex bonus, +6 vampire natural armor, +3 magic vestment on armor, +3 magic vestment on shield), which means Roy is only likely to land his first attack of the round.

And that's assuming that the armor and shield are nonmagical, which I don't think is a safe assumption.

are

2017-07-20, 07:07 PM

And that's assuming that the armor and shield are nonmagical, which I don't think is a safe assumption.

AND that's not taking into account the 2 negative levels that accumulate with every successful slam attack from a vampire.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 07:09 PM

AND that's not taking into account the 2 negative levels that accumulate with every successful slam attack from a vampire.

"Sunburst. Disintegrate. Gust of wind. Next." :vaarsuvius:

Keltest

2017-07-20, 07:13 PM

"Sunburst. Disintegrate. Gust of wind. Next." :vaarsuvius:

So Durkon should just outright ignore all the other threats because V is capable of unloading on him if he's caught unprepared?

We don't even know if V knows the sunburst spell. And his protection from sunlight spell could very well render it irrelevant anyway.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 07:16 PM

So Durkon should just outright ignore all the other threats because V is capable of unloading on him if he's caught unprepared?

We don't even know if V knows the sunburst spell.

Armor that barely works on all the little threats isn't going to matter much when V has 8th level spells. (It doesn't need to be sunburst, either.)

are

2017-07-20, 07:18 PM

So Durkon should just outright ignore all the other threats because V is capable of unloading on him if he's caught unprepared?

We don't even know if V knows the sunburst spell.

V cast it when they were fighting Xykon. I don't suppose that guarantees that they know it, as it could have come from one of the soul splices, but it seems reasonable for V to know it. As they gain levels, they seem able to "automagically" learn and cast high-level spells with no in-comic research time (Dimensional Lock, eg, when they definitely weren't 15th level at the beginning of the story).

The real danger is if Greg gained any levels since the Godsmoot, which would enable him to cast Antimagic Field and Symbol of Insanity, the combination of which would pretty much render V, Elan, Belkar, and probably Haley useless. He did say that he had plenty of contingencies in place, so the vampires are likely to have set traps and have multiple schemes for ensuring the vote goes their way.

Keltest

2017-07-20, 07:18 PM

Armor that barely works on all the little threats isn't going to matter much when V has 8th level spells. (It doesn't need to be sunburst, either.)

I am, at the least, intrigued at your certainty that this will be the first time that V is allowed to solve the plot within a small handful of rounds.

And I wouldn't exactly call providing protection against 3/4 of Roy's attacks as "barely working on the little threats".

And Belkar is immune to domination because of his protection from evil clasp, so taking care of him is relevant as well.

are

2017-07-20, 07:22 PM

I am, at the least, intrigued at your certainty that this will be the first time that V is allowed to solve the plot within a small handful of rounds.

I agree; this conflict is at its core the conflict between Roy and Durkon and the vampire driving Durkon's corpse. V being able to intercede with overwhelming force doesn't make a ton of sense here. Likely they will be occupied protecting civilians from the vampire's contingencies. Greg seems the type to relish setting up a trolley problem or impossible choice for the heroes.

Alternatively, the IFCC will intervene; they've previously interceded on the side of destroying the gates and pushing reality farther toward the brink of destruction.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 07:27 PM

I am, at the least, intrigued at your certainty that this will be the first time that V is allowed to solve the plot within a small handful of rounds.

And I wouldn't exactly call providing protection against 3/4 of Roy's attacks as "barely working on the little threats".

And Belkar is immune to domination because of his protection from evil clasp, so taking care of him is relevant as well.

1. For plot? V will be removed somehow. But in an actual game? Fighters are set dressing.

2. 1/3, not 3/4.

3. Belkar is evil, remember?

are

2017-07-20, 07:29 PM

1. For plot? V will be removed somehow. But in an actual game? Fighters are set dressing.

You're right. It's a good thing we're talking about the comic, then.

3. Belkar is evil, remember?

We saw Belkar use that clasp in the Godsmoot, and he did pretty well for himself until he was thrown out a window. It caused him pain, but it did protect him from the domination effect.

Keltest

2017-07-20, 07:30 PM

1. For plot? V will be removed somehow. But in an actual game? Fighters are set dressing.

2. 1/3, not 3/4.

3. Belkar is evil, remember?

Assuming Roy has 4 attacks total, Greg could reasonably get his AC high enough to be challenging to get more than one attack in, especially with his minion clerics dropping little baby buffs on him. If he only has 3, then it goes to 2/3.

Protection from Evil also doesn't care about the caster's (or item wearer's) alignment. It hurts Belkar for dramatic purposes, but does protect him from domination. We've seen him use it before.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 07:35 PM

Assuming Roy has 4 attacks total, Greg could reasonably get his AC high enough to be challenging to get more than one attack in, especially with his minion clerics dropping little baby buffs on him. If he only has 3, then it goes to 2/3.

Roy should have about a +29 to hit, give or take. His second and third would be at +24 and +19. So, even if Durkula gets 30 AC, we have 95%, 75% and 50%. Average is 2.2 hits out of 3.

When did people start calling him Greg, anyway?

woweedd

2017-07-20, 07:41 PM

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 07:42 PM

Roy has a ranged attack now, actually.

Not a very good one, though.

danielxcutter

2017-07-20, 07:55 PM

Yikes, that was brutal...

are

2017-07-20, 08:04 PM

Not a very good one, though.

All the more reason for him to wear his armor.

Peelee

2017-07-20, 08:06 PM

Greg. I don't get it. Why is that funny?
Because in the strip that the name Greg was introduced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html), the Order list many potential puns to name the creature. The last suggestion, "Greg," is humorous due to the silly juxtaposition of a fairly plain and boring name after a long string of clever names.

Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better, and then everyone gets ice cream. Hey, it's better than dissecting a live frog. What the hell, E. B. White?

When did people start calling him Greg, anyway?

See above.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 08:07 PM

All the more reason for him to wear his armor.

It's a single attack, dude. Full BAB, just no second or third attack. Or as good of damage, since he loses the two-hand bonus.

Keltest

2017-07-20, 08:08 PM

It's a single attack, dude. +29, just no second or third attack. Or as good of damage.

actually, as a ranged attack, he uses his dex bonus instead of his str. That's significant.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 08:09 PM

actually, as a ranged attack, he uses his dex bonus instead of his str. That's significant.

Yeah, I noticed and made an edit. Also, isn't there a feat for that (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/monster-manual-v--78/brutal-throw--279/index.html)?

Kish

2017-07-20, 08:25 PM

When did people start calling him Greg, anyway?
After Blackwing suggested it.

I am somehow quite certain that whatever Rich's reason for having Greg change out of Durkon's armor, it's not "anyone who knows D&D optimization will know the armor's useless to him."

Peelee

2017-07-20, 08:31 PM

After Blackwing suggested it.

Ya know, I was going to say that since the speech balloons have no tails, we don't actually know who said it.... but you're right, it does seem like a Blackwing suggestion.

danielxcutter

2017-07-20, 08:37 PM

Yeah, I noticed and made an edit. Also, isn't there a feat for that (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/monster-manual-v--78/brutal-throw--279/index.html)?

Which isn't core. Not that it's impossible for him to have it - Favored Souls and Weapons of Legacy aren't from core either - but it's not too likely, at least right now. He's just gained a way of making ranged attacks; he wouldn't have time to get a new feat.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 08:40 PM

Which isn't core. Not that it's impossible for him to have it - Favored Souls and Weapons of Legacy aren't from core either - but it's not too likely, at least right now. He's just gained a way of making ranged attacks; he wouldn't have time to get a new feat.

Did I say "There's a feat, he definitely has it! It's impossible for him to not have it! He has it!"?

danielxcutter

2017-07-20, 08:42 PM

Did I say "There's a feat, he definitely has it! It's impossible for him to not have it! He has it!"?

No, you did not, and yes, I rolled a 1 on my Diplomacy check.

Sorry if it sounded rude. And yeah, I won't really be surprised if he does get it eventually.

yldenfrei

2017-07-20, 09:18 PM

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 09:18 PM

No, you did not, and yes, I rolled a 1 on my Diplomacy check.

Sorry if it sounded rude. And yeah, I won't really be surprised if he does get it eventually.

Relax. I was just messing around.

danielxcutter

2017-07-20, 09:19 PM

Relax. I was just messing around.

Aaaaaaand there's the nat 1 for my Sense Motive check. :smallannoyed:

Avianmosquito

2017-07-20, 09:22 PM

Aaaaaaand there's the nat 1 for my Sense Motive check. :smallannoyed:

You need new dice, buddy.

The MunchKING

2017-07-20, 09:22 PM

Yes, there is. If "Nose-fur-atu" *officially* reclaims the title of High Priest of Hel, that means Hel no longer has a representative at the Godsmoot, and thus loses her vote. So he can only unofficially be high priest until the tie is broken.

Did it HAVE to be the High priest, or just any cleric capable of casting Bestow Proxie?

She doesn't necessarily need to lead the religion to be Hel's representative as far as I recall. They just ASSUMED she would be, because that's the way every other God has done it, because their highest level clerics lead the religion...

The MunchKING

2017-07-20, 09:28 PM

Wait.
Did Durkon* mean "contingency" (plan) or "contingency" (spell)?
Or both?

Clerics don't get contingency do they? He'd need an arcane caster for that one.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-20, 09:30 PM

Did it HAVE to be the High priest, or just any cleric capable of casting Bestow Proxie?
Hel's vote has already been counted, so other than having a representative so her vote continues to count, said representative could be anyone - they don't need to be able to cast the Proxie spell (which is good for Hel, because I doubt the Cleric of Stone prepared it). However, the rules do seem to require the High Priest of each religion, so the fiction of resigning was necessary.

I'm confused: why are the vampires attacking Thor's clerics? Shouldn't they be attacking Dvalin's clergy, the ones who called for, and presumably will be presiding over, the dwarven council? (I imagine Greg's reason for attacking the clergy is so they could pose as the clerics themselves and twist the story so that majority of the council will vote yes.)

The Council of Clans does not seem to involve Dvalin clergy at all. Dvalin used to listen to the Council when he was alive, and continues to do so as a demigod.

They are attacking the clerics of Thor because they are a danger to them and to the plan to dominate the Council into voting to destroy the world.

GW

danielxcutter

2017-07-20, 09:31 PM

You need new dice, buddy.

I actually might, as a matter of fact...

-A nat 1 for initiative in one of my PbPs and thus last in order. Slower than even my own psicrystal despite him being a Nimble one and my character having Improved Initiative for a grand total of +6 to initiative despite having no Dex bonus.

-In another, I'm a level 1 Ranger with a greatsword and 15 Str. So far in the current encounter, I've made at least five attack rolls and only one hit, even after turning off Power Attack. 1d20+3 to hit, yes, but only one was higher than 12 with the bonuses. I kept missing against a flarping badger. Good thing my character's uncle(Ranger 2/Barbarian 2 I think) was with him...

-Just attacked a skeleton archer in another PbP. Hit, but minimum damage(4, if you wanted to know). With a rapier, so blocked by that DR 5/bludgeoning.

yldenfrei

2017-07-20, 09:41 PM

The Council of Clans does not seem to involve Dvalin clergy at all. Dvalin used to listen to the Council when he was alive, and continues to do so as a demigod.

They are attacking the clerics of Thor because they are a danger to them and to the plan to dominate the Council into voting to destroy the world.

GW

That's... weird. How else does Dvalin call for the Council of Clans if not via his clergy? :smallconfused:

It just feels weird to me that the vampires would attack a clergy that's not directly related to the task at hand, and only by virtue of their being a threat (because theoretically this should extend to all the other clergy, not just Thor's).

Chei

2017-07-20, 09:55 PM

That's... weird. How else does Dvalin call for the Council of Clans if not via his clergy? :smallconfused:

It just feels weird to me that the vampires would attack a clergy that's not directly related to the task at hand, and only by virtue of their being a threat (because theoretically this should extend to all the other clergy, not just Thor's).

Dvalin clearly has at least one cleric capable of being a high priest, so it's assumed he might have others. If you take Thrym as an example, Dvalin might have one more high-level cleric, and then a smattering of low-level ones. I don't believe the council is made of clerics. They seem like representatives of their clans in a political body that no longer rules the dwarves (but happens to have a say in divine matters).

Thor's clergy might be an especially notable threat in Firmament because they have a major temple there, as reported by the high priest. The temple has (had, rather) a garrison and someone wearing that "I am a highly ranked priest" hat. Other reasons *Durkon might attack them instead of Dvalin: 1. *Durkon hates Thor, 2. *Durkon wants to subvert the CoC, not attack them, 3. It screws over the main characters, whether he knows it or not.

Mandor

2017-07-20, 10:03 PM

I actually wonder if Hel casually referring to Greg as her High Priest one too many times might be her undoing.

After all, if the OTHER gods catch wind of that, they could potentially nullify her vote outright, on grounds that her High Priest left the Godsmoot before it was all over. It's not entirely unplausible given how Hel rubbed some technicalities in their face already

Hel: No changing your vote, Heimdall. I may not have been able to attend these little meetings, but I've kept up with procedures.
Loki: Ugh, I should never have pushed for that "No Backsies" rule.

That said, I would not exactly bet the farm on this theory.

are

2017-07-20, 10:08 PM

goto124

2017-07-20, 10:14 PM

Why ditch the armor, though?

Clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank

yldenfrei

2017-07-20, 10:15 PM

Dvalin clearly has at least one cleric capable of being a high priest, so it's assumed he might have others. If you take Thrym as an example, Dvalin might have one more high-level cleric, and then a smattering of low-level ones. I don't believe the council is made of clerics. They seem like representatives of their clans in a political body that no longer rules the dwarves (but happens to have a say in divine matters).

Thor's clergy might be an especially notable threat in Firmament because they have a major temple there, as reported by the high priest. The temple has (had, rather) a garrison and someone wearing that "I am a highly ranked priest" hat. Other reasons *Durkon might attack them instead of Dvalin: 1. *Durkon hates Thor, 2. *Durkon wants to subvert the CoC, not attack them, 3. It screws over the main characters, whether he knows it or not.
Yep, I'm aware that the Council of Clans are not specifically of Dvalin's clergy, but I assume it's still his priests who do the gathering of the council members. So it would make sense that Greg et al would target those clerics in order to better position themselves for dominating said council members.

Greg hasn't exactly been shown to have a lot of restraint when it comes to "killing clergy not directly related to the task at hand."
Hmm true.

danielxcutter

2017-07-20, 10:16 PM

Clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank clank

Yeah, plate has a huge Armor Check penalty.

Jasdoif

2017-07-20, 10:24 PM

Yep, I'm aware that the Council of Clans are not specifically of Dvalin's clergy, but I assume it's still his priests who do the gathering of the council members. So it would make sense that Greg et al would target those clerics in order to better position themselves for dominating said council members.Given that the Council of Clans needs to be assembled and that took two days last time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html), I suspect "those clerics" are spread out all over the Dwarven lands. Intercepting them all is...rather infeasible with HPoH's current resources.

Whereas they're going to arrive at Firmament, making that a choke point of sorts. Except there's that temple of Thor, whose members might notice if something happens to the Dwarven clan heads as they arrive individually....

Breccia

2017-07-20, 11:07 PM

"Nothing to worry about, mistress. Just some static on the line."

Arkaim

2017-07-20, 11:33 PM

Wait.

Hel just called that vampire her high priest. But he very clearly abdicated his role as high priest to that other vampire back at the God's Moot.

Continuity Error?!??!?!??

are

2017-07-20, 11:38 PM

Wait.

Hel just called that vampire her high priest. But he very clearly abdicated his role as high priest to that other vampire back at the God's Moot.

Continuity Error?!??!?!??

No, the "frontarchy" thing at the moot was obviously a ruse to abuse a technicality that allowed him to leave.

Unless you're being sarcastic, in which case:

Zomg such sloppy writing

goto124

2017-07-20, 11:42 PM

Greg passed on his official High Priest title so that he could go off to do other important things without losing the vote at Godsmoot. But this is in name only. Hel knows Greg is still the priest who does and decides things.

Hardcore

2017-07-21, 12:13 AM

Because in the strip that the name Greg was introduced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html), the Order list many potential puns to name the creature. The last suggestion, "Greg," is humorous due to the silly juxtaposition of a fairly plain and boring name after a long string of clever names.

Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better, and then everyone gets ice cream. Hey, it's better than dissecting a live frog. What the hell, E. B. White?

See above.

So, no Allusion to something in American culture then?

8BitNinja

2017-07-21, 12:18 AM

Probably much like a chair massage (http://dilbert.com/strip/1997-11-03)

Oh.

So it does nothing? Then why would Hel even care?

danielxcutter

2017-07-21, 12:22 AM

So, no Allusion to something in American culture then?

Not in this case, though that's not a stupid assumption to make I guess.

hamishspence

2017-07-21, 12:45 AM

Thrym isn't a frost giant, he's a "Gargantuan Outsider Deity" weighing in at 32000 to 250000 lbs per "Deities and Demigods (https://dnd.rem.uz/3.5%20D%26D%20Books/Deities%20And%20Demigods.pdf)" Is there anything more precise for Thrym's weight?

Depends where in Gargantuan he is. However, if you scale up directly from 2800 lb Large to Gargantuan, he should be 64 x as heavy: 179200 lb.

That said - Hel is the same size as him here - whereas in Deities & Demigods, her standard size is a bit smaller. So we can't assume that they correlate exactly to their Deities & Demigods counterparts.

Thor's supposed to be Large, for example - yet every time we see him, he's more Gargantuan/Colossal.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html

Of course, given that many gods have Alter Size, it can be hard to tell what their in-strip standard size is.

Kardwill

2017-07-21, 02:06 AM

And therefore can break the tie at the Godsmoot!

Smacks self.

A shame Elan finally retracted his demand for Banjo to be included in the northern pantheon. Especially since Odin was willing to say "yes" to that. :smallbiggrin:

"Is it still possible to include a new god/demigod to the moot" is an interesting question. And "What would Banjo's vote be" is another one.

OK, I know this chapter's dramatic conflict won't get resolved in such a silly way. But still :smallwink:

Alex Warlorn

2017-07-21, 02:17 AM

After this slaughter by an army of vampire spell casters, how many decent level dwarf clerics are gonna be left alive?

P.S.

After the complete extinction of the Earth Elemental Cult by the vampires:
Who is going to act as spiritual neutral ground for the clerics?

P.P.S. I wonder if the entire debate and vote is gonna become moot by Redcloak and Xykon finding the portal and beginning the ritual? Then again, an anti-climax for THIS after YEARS of build up with the vampires and Hel, would feel like a cheat rather than a twist.

dtilque

2017-07-21, 03:42 AM

Oh.

So it does nothing? Then why would Hel even care?

Maybe she doesn't. But I don't really know. I just couldn't resist making a reference to the chair massage joke in Dilbert.

danielxcutter

2017-07-21, 03:42 AM

Maybe she doesn't. But I don't really know. I just couldn't resist making a reference to the chair massage joke in Dilbert.

Paladins. Always so literal.

goto124

2017-07-21, 04:02 AM

Oh.

So it does nothing? Then why would Hel even care?

Did you see Hel's (lack of) reaction? :smallamused:

Matt620

2017-07-21, 06:04 AM

I'm confused: why are the vampires attacking Thor's clerics? Shouldn't they be attacking Dvalin's clergy, the ones who called for, and presumably will be presiding over, the dwarven council? (I imagine Greg's reason for attacking the clergy is so they could pose as the clerics themselves and twist the story so that majority of the council will vote yes.)

Or does the Firmament have those shared temple sort of thing?

Wasn't it the High Priest of Thor who gave Roy that stone to get him in Firmament? He's probably trying to ensure Roy won't have any backup. A few extra priests around would certainly, at the very least, keep the vampires busy.

Quebbster

2017-07-21, 07:18 AM

It's quite possible that Thor's clerics are the only clerics powerful enough to pose something of a threat to the vampires' plans, so they get taken out early.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 07:38 AM

That's... weird. How else does Dvalin call for the Council of Clans if not via his clergy? :smallconfused:
I am simply not sure what it is that you are arguing here. Lets say his priests live in the capital (as would befit the King of the Dwarves church). They could sends messengers, letters, etc to the clans for a meeting in Firmament. There are infinite ways to convene clan leaders that do not involve a single cleric going anywhere.

It just feels weird to me that the vampires would attack a clergy that's not directly related to the task at hand, and only by virtue of their being a threat (because theoretically this should extend to all the other clergy, not just Thor's).

Why would he attack Dvalin's clerics at all? He needs the meeting to happen. Killing representatives or anyone else required for the meeting to happen is counterproductive.

GW

Lord Torath

2017-07-21, 09:06 AM

So, no Allusion to something in American culture then?Well, there is The Greg Initiative (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0560.html)... Also Dharma and Greg (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118303/).

But yeah, I think there's no allusion here, just a short, plain name after all the clever ones.

elros

2017-07-21, 09:20 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 09:26 AM

I thought a lot of Thor clerics would be able to handle four vampires.
Not if they are taken by surprise. Greg is very high level at this point - 16 levels of cleric plus all his vampire abilities. If the head Priest was, say, level 12 (very high, for a non-adventurer), Greg would still mop the floor with him if he wasn't prepared, which he couldn't have been.

Can clerics combine their turning ability to gain a bonus?
Not as far as I know.

GW

wumpus

2017-07-21, 09:53 AM

Indeed. I edited in that piece of information. Still, I'd expect some kind of payoff for the "token can only be given freely" exposition.

Did Greg ever figure out the protection from the Sun spell? Or did he always depend on the staff to cast it?

GW

I don't think Rich has declared just how researched spells work in OOTS. In D&D (all editions I'm aware of), clerics merely need to ask their gods for certain spells. It isn't clear how much identification is needed, but players are typically allowed anything in any book (that isn't otherwise barred from them). I'd expect Greg merely needs to ask Hel for Malack's "protection from Sun" spell.

This leads to the question of how Malack could slip a backdoor into his spell. Presumably Thor gave Durkon the exact "Malack's spell", complete with backdoor.

Keltest

2017-07-21, 10:08 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 10:15 AM

I don't think Rich has declared just how researched spells work in OOTS. In D&D (all editions I'm aware of), clerics merely need to ask their gods for certain spells. It isn't clear how much identification is needed, but players are typically allowed anything in any book (that isn't otherwise barred from them). I'd expect Greg merely needs to ask Hel for Malack's "protection from Sun" spell.

This leads to the question of how Malack could slip a backdoor into his spell. Presumably Thor gave Durkon the exact "Malack's spell", complete with backdoor.

No, it doesn't work like that, AFAIUI. Developing a clerical spell, by the rules (which we can parsimoniously assume are valid until the comic shows otherwise, which so far, if anything, has confirmed it), divine spell research works like arcane one ("A divine spellcaster also can research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless he decides to share it with others." (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm))). That means that they are effectively teaching their deity a new way to shape soul energy to produce a new effect. Presumably, given enough time, that spell may become well known enough that first all clerics of that god can use it and then all clerics of all gods (in the same way anyone can learn Bigby's X spells at level up), but when it is first researched, it doesn't automatically get added to the standard cleric spell list.

As to how Thor didn't notice the backdoor: easy. It's the same way a developer of computer code does need his boss' approval to buy new hardware to run his new program, but that doesn't mean his boss ever bothers to read or understand the program being developed. He's just providing the resources to run it.

Grey Wolf

Peelee

2017-07-21, 10:19 AM

I don't think Rich has declared just how researched spells work in OOTS. In D&D (all editions I'm aware of), clerics merely need to ask their gods for certain spells. It isn't clear how much identification is needed, but players are typically allowed anything in any book (that isn't otherwise barred from them). I'd expect Greg merely needs to ask Hel for Malack's "protection from Sun" spell.

This leads to the question of how Malack could slip a backdoor into his spell. Presumably Thor gave Durkon the exact "Malack's spell", complete with backdoor.

Here's my completely unofficial, best guess stab at it; I've decided to call it Blanket Theory.

The gods all have a big blanket warehouse. Every day, the clerics can request specific blankets that are in the blanket catalogue. There are soft blankets, heavy blankets, airy blankets, foam blankets, and they have all sorts of aesthetics.

A researched spell is a specialty blanket. It can be made and shipped, but the cleric has to custom order it. Once a cleric has made the custom order, that is saved in his account, so he can continue to order more if they need. But it's not in the main catalogue, because it's still a custom order. If another cleric wants that same blanket, she has to either design it herself from scratch and submit it, or get the design from whoever did come up with it. The gods can't just see that the first cleric has it and give it to the second, because that violates BIPAA (Blanket Intellectual Property Accountability Act). The second cleric has to either come up with the design herself, or get the design from the first and submit it.

Now, as far as having access to that design and submitting it (our metaphorical version of having a staff with the spell, and researching it enough to be able to cast it), that's a question for the mattress store down the street. I got nothin'.

nbLurkerAbove

2017-07-21, 10:34 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 10:36 AM

Hel says "Just keep him (Roy) away from the meeting until it's over." I believe this implies that the vampires will not be at the meeting. Do they set up something before-hand, or does Hel have shenanigans lined up with help from another god?

The meeting does not include the vampires, since none of them are clan representatives, so yes, they can't be in it, not openly. They presumably need to convince, control, or possibly even impersonate the participants in advance. It is doubtful Hel has another god to help her at this point, but it is possible, certainly. We will just have to wait and see.

GW

Jasdoif

2017-07-21, 10:59 AM

Rich was actually unaware that Mass Death Ward was already on the cleric spell list. If you want to create a spell that isn't on the standard list, even clerics do need to research it.Indeed, as was mentioned on the very subject of mass death ward.

I don't know why he had to research the spell in the first place. It already exists :smallconfused:. It's not in the Player's Handbook, but it's in the Spell Compendium and Tsukiko already used Orb spells, which are also non-core.

She almost certainly had to research them specifically, though. For simplicity, I usually assume that all spells in the SRD are "common knowledge" and everything else is "obscure/non-existent" unless someone has researched it. That's because the bulk of the reading audience won't know about each and every spell in 3.5, but most of them have the Player's Handbook.

Plus, I didn't know Mass Death Ward was an actual spell until right this moment. I was merely extrapolating, I never checked any of the books for it. But it doesn't really affect the story either way, except for that I was pegging it at 7th level instead of 8th.

Shining Wrath

2017-07-21, 11:03 AM

And, now, the anti-life shell will do somewhere between "diddly" and "squat."

I'm going to take it as given that anything used in the big Roy-HPoH battle won't be used again. First, boring; second, Roy would have talked to the Order and prepared counters to likely vampire tactics.

actually, as a ranged attack, he uses his dex bonus instead of his str. That's significant.

Thrown weapons use the Strength modifier to determine hit and damage.

I think that the current known size of Team Greg - 4 vampire / clerics of mostly unknown (but presumably lower) level, plus Greg himself - means that in anything resembling a stand-up fight, the Order wipes the floor with them. Haley's going to be invisible Pointy Death Incarnate, Belkar won't be dominated and has magic weapons, Roy's going to be going Green Fire Hulk when needed, Elan will be supplying minor magic and emotional support <"Slay slay slay the undead horrors">, and V? V is going to be bringing All The Hurt. Do not underestimate the power of an Angry Wizard, and I think V is going to view Team Greg as being annoyances along the lines of Kubota, even including facial hair.

Therefore, it won't be that easy.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 11:09 AM

I'm going to take it as given that anything used in the big Roy-HPoH battle won't be used again. First, boring; second, Roy would have talked to the Order and prepared counters to likely vampire tactics.
This statement is way too broad. Roy will use his sword and his brain and his green fire. Greg will probably manage a few touch attacks, and also his Harm. A number of other spells will probably make repeat appearances, if only to whittle down Roy's HP.

The anti-life shell? It wouldn't surprise me if it was the first thing to show up, actually - possibly blocking access to the meeting or the like.

Thrown weapons use the Strength modifier to determine hit and damage.

Indeed: "The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll."
(source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm))

But for all we know, the power compensates for the -4 (since it likely also establishes a range for the throw). Not that a -4 will make much of a difference, and thus will never be established in the comic.

Grey Wolf

Jasdoif

2017-07-21, 11:10 AM

Thrown weapons use the Strength modifier to determine hit and damage.Not without a feat like Brutal Throw. Thrown weapons normally use Dexterity on the attack (to-hit) roll, like any other ranged weapon attack in the game.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 11:13 AM

Not without a feat like Brutal Throw. Thrown weapons normally use Dexterity on the attack (to-hit) roll, like any other ranged weapon attack in the game.

Did the SRD get errata'ed at some point?

Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)

Never mind, I see the argument now: it's strength to damage, but no mention of to-hit, so presumably defaults to Dex, because it doesn't mention it?

GW

Jasdoif

2017-07-21, 11:17 AM

Did the SRD get errata'ed at some point?

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)

GWNothing in there says the Strength modifier is applied to the attack roll; only to the damage roll.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 11:21 AM

Nothing in there says the Strength modifier is applied to the attack roll; only to the damage roll.

It also doesn't say it uses Dex. What I can see is that:

Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is:

Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty.

The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

GW

factotum

2017-07-21, 11:21 AM

As to how Thor didn't notice the backdoor: easy. It's the same way a developer of computer code does need his boss' approval to buy new hardware to run his new program, but that doesn't mean his boss ever bothers to read or understand the program being developed. He's just providing the resources to run it.

I think it might not even be him that's providing the resources in this case. I think this comes down to the Domain Agreement--e.g. a cleric of Thor who uses Flame Strike is actually tapping into Loki's power, since he is the god of fire. A Death Ward spell would presumably come under the portfolio of Nergal (since they were on the Western Continent and in the juridisdiction of the Western Gods), and he would be entirely happy to include a backdoor for the use of his servant Malack.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 11:25 AM

I think it might not even be him that's providing the resources in this case. I think this comes down to the Domain Agreement--e.g. a cleric of Thor who uses Flame Strike is actually tapping into Loki's power, since he is the god of fire.

Honestly, that sounds wrong to me. It'd be too easy to abuse (purposely tell your clerics to do nothing but use some other god's power), and would not match with what we've been told about where cleric power comes from. No, I think that Loki allows the spell, but it is still powered from Thor's soul reserves.

GW

Shining Wrath

2017-07-21, 11:31 AM

It also doesn't say it uses Dex. What I can see is that:

The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

GW

I take the combination of this:

Attack Bonus

Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is:

Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty

and this:

Melee and Ranged Weapons

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

To be pretty clear: throwing a weapon which could be used effectively in melee, uses the Strength modifier. And I'm going to argue that Roy does use his greatsword effectively in melee, so long as he doesn't drop it. :smallsmile:

Rogar Demonblud

2017-07-21, 11:33 AM

I thought a lot of Thor clerics would be able to handle four vampires. Can clerics combine their turning ability to gain a bonus?

p.s. I realize that the answer is "it depends on the plot," but I was wondering about the crunch.

Not any more. 3E used to allow Aid Another on Turn or Rebuke checks, but 3.5 removed that by cleaning up the language a little.

Also, summoning clan heads is probably done magically, through whatever iconography serves as badge of office.

Chei

2017-07-21, 11:33 AM

It also doesn't say it uses Dex. What I can see is that:

The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

GW

All ranged attacks use Dex for the to-hit roll, but not all ranged weapons have Str for the damage roll (like crossbows or splash weapons, which do flat damage). Dex for to-hit is assumed, but Str for damage must be specified.

Edit: Specifying attacks, rather than weapons.

hamishspence

2017-07-21, 11:36 AM

I think it might not even be him that's providing the resources in this case. I think this comes down to the Domain Agreement--e.g. a cleric of Thor who uses Flame Strike is actually tapping into Loki's power, since he is the god of fire.

Thor is "absolute master of storms" in the north - but that doesn't mean other gods' clerics can't do things with storms - using their own deities's power.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html

When Hel grants Durkula the Control Weather spell, based on the presumption that Thor would be a problem later - it makes sense that the spell is granted from her own power.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 11:40 AM

And I'm going to argue that Roy does use his greatsword effectively in melee, so long as he doesn't drop it. :smallsmile:
Roy's skill at holding on, thankfully, doesn't come into play. "Melee" and "Ranged" are descriptors in the weapons table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons). All swords are melee. Therefore, they use strength bonus to hit when thrown.

All ranged attacks use Dex for the to-hit roll, but not all ranged weapons have Str for the damage roll (like crossbows or splash weapons, which do flat damage). Dex for to-hit is assumed, but Str for damage must be specified.
[citation needed]. AFAICT, that's for ranged weapons. A sword is a melee weapon, which has a to-hit equation that uses strength modifier, as I posted above and can be verified here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackBonus).

Yeah, at the start I wasn't convinced I was in the right and Jasdoif was in the wrong, but I am convinced now: melee weapons, when thrown, DO use strength to hit (with a malus of -4, unless they are also thrown weapons). Whether they also get strength bonus to damage depends on a number of circumstances, which is why they specify in the entries. For swords, they do get the strength bonus to damage.

Grey Wolf

Avianmosquito

2017-07-21, 11:44 AM

It also doesn't say it uses Dex. What I can see is that:

The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

GW

Because it's a ranged attack, and there's a feat, Brutal Throw from Complete Adventurer, that allows strength to be used for attack on throws. If strength was already used, that official sourcebook wouldn't have a need for such a thing.

On a side note, what IS his attack with that throw, then? If he has brutal throw, ~+25, but if he doesn't... Do we have any indication of his dexterity? I assumed ~10 earlier, but it might be 12 or 14 pretty easily and fit in the max dex on his armour. So, probably ~+15, maybe +16 or +17? Does the ability remove the -4? Then ~+29 with brutal throw and +19-21 without? I don't know, his attack doesn't seem too bad with that. Though there is the obvious issue of him only getting one attack per round instead of three and losing ~5 damage (since a thrown weapon doesn't get the 1.5x strength bonus).

It's something, and at least he'll do better than Haley's 1d8+5 and 1d6 cold since both of those will be 0 damage against Durkula's DR 10/Silver and ER 10 (Cold, Electric). Haley's going to be completely worthless in this next encounter, highest level party member or no. Then again, maybe she can get silver arrows, not hard to believe, and then she can deal... 1d8+5, 3-4 times each round, 1-2 of which will miss. Rogues without sneak attacks SUCK.

hamishspence

2017-07-21, 11:48 AM

A sword is a melee weapon - but so is a dagger - and it's a throwing weapon too, with a range increment. The impression I get is that a dagger uses Str for To Hit in melee, and Dex for to hit when thrown, unless a character has the Brutal Throw feat.

It's something, and at least he'll do better than Haley's 1d8+5 and 1d6 cold since both of those will be 0 damage against Durkula's DR 10/Silver and ER 10 (Cold, Electric). Haley's going to be completely worthless in this next encounter, highest level party member or no. Then again, maybe she can get silver arrows, not hard to believe, and then she can deal... 1d8+5, 3-4 times each round, 1-2 of which will miss. Rogues without sneak attacks SUCK.

Right-Eye had a dagger that allowed the Sneak Attacking of undead, in Start of Darkness. Maybe Haley can get the bow equivalent?

Jasdoif

2017-07-21, 11:49 AM

The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?Something that'd have been a lot clearer if they'd talked about melee and ranged attacks there instead of melee and ranged weapons, instead of trying to kind of hint at it. As you already quoted the range penalty doesn't enter into the melee roll; so would it even make sense to use the melee roll for ranged attacks? Further, listing a range increment for melee weapons that can also be thrown would only matter insofar as maximum range if one were to go the "use the melee roll for the ranged attack" route.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 11:49 AM

Because it's a ranged attack, and there's a feat, Brutal Throw from Complete Adventurer, that allows strength to be used for attack on throws. If strength was already used, that official sourcebook wouldn't have a need for such a thing.

This logic doesn't pass the smell test. Plenty of useless things have been printed because the writers weren't all that good at the rules.

GW

Chei

2017-07-21, 11:50 AM

Yeah, at the start I wasn't convinced I was in the right and Jasdoif was in the wrong, but I am convinced now: melee weapons, when thrown, DO use strength to hit (with a malus of -4, unless they are also thrown weapons). Whether they also get strength bonus to damage depends on a number of circumstances, which is why they specify in the entries. For swords, they do get the strength bonus to damage.

Grey Wolf

I'm still pretty sure I'm right. Let me use an actual thrown weapon as an example: daggers.

When you use a dagger in a melee attack, you use your Strength modifier for the to-hit bonus, unless you take Weapon Finesse. When you throw a dagger to make a ranged attack, you substitute your Dexterity for Strength. The dagger is a melee weapon. The same is true for clubs, shortspears, and several other weapons that can do both.

Letting melee weapons that aren't designed to be thrown use Strength for the to-hit sounds absurd to me.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 11:56 AM

Letting melee weapons that aren't designed to be thrown use Strength for the to-hit sounds absurd to me.

Again, [citation needed]. I find absurd that throwing a sword requires dexterity.

ETA:

the range penalty doesn't enter into the melee roll; so would it even make sense to use the melee roll for ranged attacks? Further, listing a range increment for melee weapons that can also be thrown would only matter insofar as maximum range if one were to go the "use the melee roll for the ranged attack" route.

So in the contradiction, you have decided that "they meant" for thrown melee weapons to use the ranged weapons equation. While I have decided they forgot to put "+range penalty (if any)" on the melee weapon entry. Not sure why your interpretation is more valid than mine.

GW

Chei

2017-07-21, 12:02 PM

Again, [citation needed]. I find absurd that throwing a sword requires dexterity.

GW

I find it absurd that short swords are considered only piercing weapons, while daggers are piercing/slashing. So let's just agree the rules were badly written and move on.

MReav

2017-07-21, 12:05 PM

Again, [citation needed]. I find absurd that throwing a sword requires dexterity.

GW

It requires dexterity to accurately hit the opponent. Strength is what determines how much damage it does when it hits.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-21, 12:06 PM

This logic doesn't pass the smell test. Plenty of useless things have been printed because the writers weren't all that good at the rules.

GW

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

You're wrong. Get over it.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 12:06 PM

It requires dexterity to accurately hit the opponent. Strength is what determines how much damage it does when it hits.

That is true of melee attacks as well. Clearly strength has a component of accuracy to it. Best not to bring "Real world" realities of actual fighting.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

You're wrong. Get over it.

The dex entry reads:
"Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons." (emphasis mine)
Swords are not in that list.

Not sure why you think that helps your argument. Also, no need to be rude.

GW

hamishspence

2017-07-21, 12:10 PM

You apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to:

Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons.

A throwing axe is specifically a Light melee weapon, but with a range increment:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

It's reasonable to apply the same principle to all thrown weapons.

Any melee weapon, when thrown, has become a ranged weapon for that throw.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-21, 12:13 PM

Not sure why you think that helps your argument. Also, no need to be rude.

GW

You don't see how the rules explicitly saying thrown weapons use dexterity supports the argument that thrown weapons use dexterity in the very first bullet point on the things dexterity actually does? And you think I'M being rude?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 12:15 PM

It's reasonable to apply the same principle to all thrown weapons. Any melee weapon, when thrown, has become a ranged weapon for that throw.

Sure, but it is also reasonable to add the range increment penalties to the melee equation. What I get from all this is that this is not as clear cut as it was suggested it was. Rich clearly has plenty of maneuverer space within the rules to determine that Roy can be as accurate when throwing his sword (even pre-magical) as he is when holding it. The argument that he must use his dex when throwing doesn't hold weight, even if Rich was sticking to the SRD rules (never mind that he might simply override them for the story).

Grey Wolf

Avianmosquito

2017-07-21, 12:16 PM

A throwing axe is specifically a Light melee weapon, but with a range increment:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

It's reasonable to apply the same principle to all thrown weapons.

Any melee weapon, when thrown, has become a ranged weapon for that throw.

I think we're wasting our time. He's ignoring it explicitly saying throwing weapons use dexterity because it didn't specifically mention swords. That's like saying you didn't cheat because the prenup didn't explicitly mention anal, or that they didn't rob somebody because they were already dead when they took the wallet, there's no point arguing with somebody willing to play semantics like that.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-21, 12:19 PM

Give up. He's ignoring it explicitly saying throwing weapons use dexterity because it didn't specifically mention swords.

No, the rules specifically mention ranged weapons. The rules specifically mention melee weapons use strength. Nowhere you have shown that "melee weapons are considered ranged when thrown". Is it reasonable, given they listed a melee thrown weapon in the list? Sure. But it is not the only reasonable interpretation.

Grey Wolf

Throknor

2017-07-21, 12:22 PM

It has worked that way for both Malack (by word of Rich) and Durkon (as seen in the comic), so it is pretty much canon.

GW

When vampirized? No argument; I even quoted it. But are they being vampirized or merely killed with a blood drain? The normal process takes three days. Seems even worse to be drained by a vampire and then be stuck there without being turned into one.

JumboWheat01

2017-07-21, 12:23 PM

Chei

2017-07-21, 12:23 PM

The dex entry reads:
"Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons." (emphasis mine)
Swords are not in that list.

Not sure why you think that helps your argument. Also, no need to be rude.

GW

The Strength entry reads: "Melee attack rolls." No ambiguity there. A thrown melee weapon is not a melee attack roll. It has a ranged increment of 10 feet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#thrownWeapons). Ranged increments only apply to ranged weapons. Ergo, a thrown melee weapon is a ranged weapon.

Let's try looking at things from the other side for a moment. When you use a javelin or other ranged weapon not designed for melee combat as an improvised melee weapon, do you think you use Dexterity on the to-hit roll?

ackmondual

2017-07-21, 12:23 PM

I take it Durkula and team had the element of surprise? I didn't think they'd be able to take on a group of dwarf fighters and clerics since they seem fit to withstand them in general.

are

2017-07-21, 12:27 PM

The rules specifically mention melee weapons use strength. Nowhere you have shown that "melee weapons are considered ranged when thrown".

Grey Wolf

A throwing axe uses strength when you make a melee attack with it. It uses dex when you make a ranged attack. Swords don't have a range increment listed, but the SRD has something to say about it:

Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)

Looking at this, it doesn't specifically say that a thrown greatsword uses dex on its attack roll, but since the rules for such usage are described in the section for thrown weapons, the natural interpretation is that a thrown greatsword acts like it has the "thrown" property, as handaxes and daggers do, and therefore uses dex on its attack roll.

Skull the Troll

2017-07-21, 12:28 PM

A shame Elan finally retracted his demand for Banjo to be included in the northern pantheon. Especially since Odin was willing to say "yes" to that. :smallbiggrin:

"Is it still possible to include a new god/demigod to the moot" is an interesting question. And "What would Banjo's vote be" is another one.

OK, I know this chapter's dramatic conflict won't get resolved in such a silly way. But still :smallwink:

Naw- if Banjo got admitted so would Giggles and it would be a wash. :)

hamishspence

2017-07-21, 12:28 PM

When vampirized? No argument; I even quoted it. But are they being vampirized or merely killed with a blood drain? The normal process takes three days. Seems even worse to be drained by a vampire and then be stuck there without being turned into one.

1d4 days. And it occurs "as standard" when blood drain is complete:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD.

However - according to Libris Mortis, it is possible (as a variant rule) for a undead that would normally create spawn, to prevent the spawning process - requires a DC15 Intelligence check).

Peelee

2017-07-21, 12:32 PM

I wholeheartedly agree. They could have just written down what they meant.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-21, 12:32 PM

No, the rules specifically mention ranged weapons. The rules specifically mention melee weapons use strength. Nowhere you have shown that "melee weapons are considered ranged when thrown". Is it reasonable, given they listed a melee thrown weapon in the list? Sure. But it is not the only reasonable interpretation.

Grey Wolf

When you throw a melee weapon, it is ranged. That is a ranged attack. That is why the basics mention strength ONLY for damage on thrown weapons, and dexterity explicitly mentions a thrown weapon on its example of ranged weapons it gives attack bonuses to. This intent is confirmed by the OFFICIAL Wizards of the Coast sourcebook, Complete Adventurer, made by the same people that made 3.5e in the first place, saying thrown weapons use dexterity in the Brutal Throw feat that allows you to use strength instead. You're wrong, get over it.

Chei

2017-07-21, 12:32 PM

Naw- if Banjo got admitted so would Giggles and it would be a wash. :)

Or there would be an extra "No" vote. Giggles is a homie.

Kish

2017-07-21, 12:35 PM

When vampirized? No argument; I even quoted it. But are they being vampirized or merely killed with a blood drain? The normal process takes three days. Seems even worse to be drained by a vampire and then be stuck there without being turned into one.
If I'm understanding the question correctly: Since Greg no longer has the staff, most likely the new victims will rise in three days, and thus they are "not vampirized" insofar as they aren't getting up yet. Victims of a vampire's blood drain rise as either vampires or vampire spawn, nonoptionally; Greg even mentioned to Nale that he was breaking Zz'dtri's neck rather than draining his blood because he didn't want him rising as a vampire.

I take it Greg and team had the element of surprise? I didn't think they'd be able to take on a group of dwarf fighters and clerics since they seem fit to withstand them in general.
Greg is at least level 16 before his vampire bonuses. Very little of the world he lives in is "fit to withstand [him]."

To put it another way: Did the Crystal-golem need the element of surprise against the gnomes, or was everything they could do against her like throwing water balloons at a charging tyrannosaur?

hamishspence

2017-07-21, 12:35 PM

Let's just say if Roy uses his greatsword as a thrown weapon against a certain undead cleric who may or may not be called Greg, Roy's ability to hit and or miss said person maybe known as Greg will be determined by the story's needs, not whether or not if it's based on Strength or Dexterity.

A good example of highly improbable ranged weapon hits - that fitted the story -

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0164.html

3 Ranged Sunder hits in succession. On ropes less than an inch wide (Fine size targets?).

Chei

2017-07-21, 12:40 PM

Greg is at least level 16 before his vampire bonuses. Very little of the world he lives in is "fit to withstand [him]."

The folks in the Class and Levels thread worked out that *Durkon is level 16? Would you kindly sum up their basis for that? I kind of don't want to accept that until I see him roll out an 8th-level spell, but I may have missed some other indication of his level.

georgie_leech

2017-07-21, 12:41 PM

If I'm understanding the question correctly: Since Greg no longer has the staff, most likely the new victims will rise in three days, and thus they are "not vampirized" insofar as they aren't getting up yet. Victims of a vampire's blood drain rise as either vampires or vampire spawn, nonoptionally; Greg even mentioned to Nale that he was breaking Zz'dtri's neck rather than draining his blood because he didn't want him rising as a vampire.

Greg is at least level 16 before his vampire bonuses. Very little of the world he lives in is "fit to withstand [him]."

To put it another way: Did the Crystal-golem need the element of surprise against the gnomes, or was everything they could do against her like throwing water balloons at a charging tyrannosaur?

Their efforts weren't like throwing water balloons. Water balloons rarely make the target stronger. :smalltongue:

Avianmosquito

2017-07-21, 12:41 PM

The folks in the Class and Levels thread worked out that *Durkon is level 16? Would you kindly sum up their basis for that? I kind of don't want to accept that until I see him roll out an 8th-level spell, but I may have missed some other indication of his level.

There's a whole thread on this, you know.

Shining Wrath

2017-07-21, 12:46 PM

If it helps, the 5th edition rules explicitly call out the use of strength for thrown weapons:

Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule. Some spells also require an attack roll. The ability modifier used for a spell attack depends on the spellcasting ability of the spellcaster.

In the RAI / RAW debate, this lends a little weight to the argument that RAI for 3.5 is "Use Strength for thrown weapons".

Kish

2017-07-21, 12:46 PM

I promise, I'm never quoting the Class and Level Geekery thread as an authority. I do, however, seem to have mixed up certain beliefs of my own that other people may not join me in. My apologies, and consider my previous post revised to have the number "14," and the note that "Durkon's teammate Vaarsuvius is at least level 16, as proven by them casting Power Word Stun."

The part about most of the world being unable to stand against Greg remains unchanged though.

Skull the Troll

2017-07-21, 12:47 PM

So Durkon should just outright ignore all the other threats because V is capable of unloading on him if he's caught unprepared?

We don't even know if V knows the sunburst spell. And his protection from sunlight spell could very well render it irrelevant anyway.

I dont think he's immune to the sun anymore. The spell was in the staff which was left behind (and destroyed) and Malack stated that he had to recast it on himself everyday. If its been a day then the spell has worn off and he has no way of recasting it unless he somehow researched the spell off the staff or Hel just decided to deux ex machina it.

Chei

2017-07-21, 12:47 PM

There's a whole thread on this, you know.

Yes, and I just checked Greg's entry, which still says he is 14, same as that last time I checked it. I'm sorry that I'm not good enough at forum navigation to find the exact post where someone figured out that he must be 16, but thanks for responding with sass in Kish's place. I'm sure he appreciates it.

Avianmosquito

2017-07-21, 12:49 PM

hamishspence

2017-07-21, 12:50 PM

If it helps, the 5th edition rules explicitly call out the use of strength for thrown weapons:

In the RAI / RAW debate, this lends a little weight to the argument that RAI for 3.5 is "Use Strength for thrown weapons".

Or just that, just as with 4e - they recognised how painful it was for high Str characters to need Dex for certain weapons - and fixed it.

Keltest

2017-07-21, 12:53 PM

I dont think he's immune to the sun anymore. The spell was in the staff which was left behind (and destroyed) and Malack stated that he had to recast it on himself everyday. If its been a day then the spell has worn off and he has no way of recasting it unless he somehow researched the spell off the staff or Hel just decided to deux ex machina it.

Greg claimed he was researching the spell, which seems like A: a totally practical thing for him to do and B: an odd thing for Rich to have him proclaim if he didn't actually want Greg to have the spell available after he lost the staff.

Anyway, Malack had the spell actually prepared (twice, even) as part of his normal spell slots, in addition to the charges on the staff.

Kish

2017-07-21, 12:55 PM

As a note, that 14 is a minimum. Given that Durkon and V did the same amount on the both (and likely Durkon did more) while V was spending experience, shouldn't Durkon at least be the same level?
Yeah, that's what I meant by "certain beliefs of my own." I would be thoroughly surprised if the comic revealed that Durkon (and thus Greg) was less than level 16, but I can't prove it and it's not germane to my point anyway.