Sample Party PO and Discussion

[AnimeTheCat]

So I would like to present a 4 character party for synergistic optimization and running through various stress tests at various different points to find breaking points, weaknesses not covered by the rest of the party, and overall "success" of the party. I realize that the "Success" is not going to be comparable to a party of other more powerful/higher tier classes, so I think we should figure out a grading scale to determine "Success".

The Party that I am looking to use is:
A Ninja
A Bard
A Crusader
A Healer

I would like to have builds for each class at level 1, 6, 9, 15, and 20 to test. Level 1 shows best the early weaknesses of a class, 6 is where most characters are getting their third feats and full BAB characters are getting an iterative attack. 9 is consistently where powerful casters really start strutting their stuff and out gaming the other classes, 15 is a staple power point and also introduces the tertiary attack for Full BAB classes, and 20 is the high point.

That being said, if you would like you can have different builds for each milestone, each peaking at that milestone, or you can make a single 1-20 build that satisfies every milestone. Any book goes, so long as it's first party. No templates, no dragon mag, no third party, no leadership.

For the scenarios I would like to have 3-4 different scenarios for each milestone. One with the focus on combat, one with the focus on social interaction (where combat or killing is unacceptable and punished), one with a focus on overcoming obstacles (magical/non-magical, could be destroyed, could be traps). The fourth encounter can be a catchall that may not fit in to any of the other categories. I'll definitely need help in orchestrating these encounters.

I am interested to see what we can come up with, build and scenarios alike, to see how far we can push this party.

[J-H]

Is multiclassing ok? )ninja benefits substantially from 3 levels of rogue and 2 of swordsage.

[AnimeTheCat]

I would say yes, however if you start using more of other classes then you're not really showcasing the abilities of the 4 classes in the OP.

Multiclassing is ok, as long as the collective total of multiclass levels do not outnumber the core class levels. Prestige classes don't count towards either total.

For example, you would be fine with Ninja 5/Rogue 3/Swordsage 2/PrC 10 but not with Ninja 1/Swordsage 9/PrC 10.

[J-H]

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=85634
Here's my 6th-level halfling ninja for RHOD.

Summary:
Lots of skills, including very good mundane stealth
High move speed (combat agility) supplemented by Shadow Jaunt 1/encounter.
Evasion, wis to AC, 2/3 saves good
Attacks at +10/+10 for 1d4+6 and 1d4+5, plus 2d6 sudden strike, 1d6 sneak attack
Can go invisible for one round (including enemy turn) 6 times per day, giving guaranteed sudden strike and +2 to-hit
Can go invisible for his turn once per encounter (assuming no maneuver refreshes) additionally.
AC roughly equivalent to a 10-dex fighter with full plate and a heavy shield +1.
Darkstalker negates non-magical senses, and high speed enables a 40' double move while sneaking at no penalty.
Poison use adds some extra sting to the first round of combat.

At level 10:
Add 3d6 sneak attack (Assassin's stance + Rogue 3) and 1d6 sudden strike for a total 8d6 bonus damage
Add Penetrating Strike ACF at Rogue 3
With ITWF, attacking 4x/round. Base to-hit and damage both increase with DEX.
Landing 4 hits while invisible nets something like 4d4+32+32d6 damage, average 154 damage.
Any enemy without See Invisibility or extremely good skills is vulnerable to repeated sudden strike/sneak attack salvos. Darkstalker and good sneaking skills make even dragons vulnerable. If the party Wizard casts Improved Invisibility, the ninja can murderize people for even longer periods of time.

At level 15 (+5 ninja levels)
Things wind down a bit.
+2d6 sudden strike
GTWF kicks in, but the -10 iteratives are chancy. Unless the target is low-AC, average damage is still likely around 150-200 from the main four attacks and an increased DEX score (dex to damage).
Climb 5' less than your move speed at no penalty as long as you end on a ledge or platform. Make it a double move, and this ninja can go straight up a 75' cliff in one round. Flight has been online for a long time, but this at least allows a non-flying ninja to take out the wizard on a tower, get amongst the enemy archers, etc., without magic.
Etherealness is now an option instead of invisibility. It's limited in duration, but allows walking through walls, and gives even enemies who can see the ninja (via magic) a 50% miss chance unless they are packing Ghost Touch or Force magic. The ninja will want to invest in ghost touch weapons. At this point, with 18 wis (item) and the +3 ki use feat, the ninja can be ethereal for 12 rounds per day, which is probably sufficient for 2-3 high-intensity battles.

At level 20 (+5 ninja levels)
+3d6 sudden strike
A DC35 caster level check is required to scry on the ninja
The last 5 levels have not granted much, since Mind Blank can also foil scrying.
Dropping in a 3rd and 4th level of swordsage at 19 & 20 in exchange would allow for a couple of 5th and 6th level maneuvers, likely related to movement (shadow stride, mirrored pursuit, pouncing charge, etc).
The ninja's damage is still decent, but item-based bonuses are much more relevant for the last 5 levels. A way to foil See Invisibility and/or True Seeing would be very helpful.

Recommended Epic PRC: Void Incarnate (web). People literally forget you exist.

[Karl Aegis]

Nominating Ninja 4 / Fighter 2 / X 3 Cometary Collision + Melee Weapon Mastery Ninja and Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3 Snowflake Wardance + Power Attack + Wraithstrike + Shield Bard going into Abjurant Champion for level 9.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
The Party that I am looking to use is:
A Ninja
A Bard
A Crusader
A Healer

I’d be interested in working on a healer, but I’d like to ask if the spell list is restricted to what’s provided in the Miniatures Handbook, or if a couple healing-related cleric spells could be added on.

Also, do we have a point buy for stats? Or can I roll my fearsome DM dice? :smalltongue:

[AnimeTheCat]

Nominating Ninja 4 / Fighter 2 / X 3 Cometary Collision + Melee Weapon Mastery Ninja and Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3 Snowflake Wardance + Power Attack + Wraithstrike + Shield Bard going into Abjurant Champion for level 9.

Throw some build stubs at me so we can get it locked in! Thanks for the interest.


I’d be interested in working on a healer, but I’d like to ask if the spell list is restricted to what’s provided in the Miniatures Handbook, or if a couple healing-related cleric spells could be added on.

Also, do we have a point buy for stats? Or can I roll my fearsome DM dice? :smalltongue:

I didn't even think about it. You can use up to 32 point buy to keep things even. I usually play at 25 or 28 personally, but that's how we like our games.

As for expanded healer spell list, follow the link below to the one I like using. Sanctified spells are allowed for healers in my games, but I'll let you decide whether you use them or not.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274241-Better-Healer-spell-list

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
As for expanded healer spell list, follow the link below to the one I like using.

That's a great list, and it has the one spell I was hoping to find, so this is good.

Also, is Pathfinder material allowed? Not looking for spells, just a feat or two I'd like to include.

[Coretron03]

I'd like to make the crusader. Probably focused on being a tanky person that can trip and heal people useing the devoted line of manauvers.

[AnimeTheCat]

That's a great list, and it has the one spell I was hoping to find, so this is good.

Also, is Pathfinder material allowed? Not looking for spells, just a feat or two I'd like to include.

Let's keep it in 3.5. As for theoretical better possibilities, feel free to use whatever you would like, but for the purposes of stress testing the party, 3.5 material only.

@Coretron03
Sounds good. There's no time limit or anything really. I've still got a lot of work to do to orchestrate the encounters.

[Coretron03]

Crusader level 1:
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1278621
Level 1 is simple, can self heal for 1d6+1 as I make an attack, can bullrush people on an attack, prevent attacks of of opportunity for a round, has 3 attacks of opportunites per round and 10ft reach and can gain 5 Dr flr a round. Can sacrifice 1 to hit to gain 2 temporary hitpoints on any attack. Anyone within my threatened area takes a -4 to hit on attack people who aren't me and I can give. a +4 bonus to hit against a peson I hit for a round that benefits anyone who attacks him. The Crusader has ranks in both intimidate and diplomancy witha +6 to both skills and can face decently.

At 6 he can ignore hardness on objects, make attacks on people who attack teamates, heal myself for 2d6+6 give +7 to ac to to a ally against one attack as a immediate action and best of all, give someone within 10 feat of me another turn if their higher then me in the initiative score or give my self a extra turn as a swift action. I plan on dipping into barbarian for 2 levels to pick up rage, movement speed increase and improved trip (Unearthed arcana variant, without preqs) and picking up knock down to get free trip attempts (attack of opportunity would go: make attack, if hit make a trip attempt, if successful make a free attack)

At 9th level gain the ability to do large damage, prevent the attack of opportunities, do con damage and ability to flatfoot a person I strike (Sudden strike/sneak attack anyone) for a round and making tumble/5ft step not work for advoiding attacks of opportunity.

I'll post higher levels when I get around to it.

[Eldariel]

I guess you don't want a Tier 1 Bard á la Sublime Chord. The build would basically build itself: Bard 20 with Dragonfire Inspiration and all the Inspire Courage bonuses. That would actually be really strong with both, a Ninja and a Crusader in the party and even the Bard being able to enter melee if desired, but here's something a bit different to cover the offensive arcane caster's role while still providing most of the support (most importantly fair Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness):

Silverbrow Human Bard 5/Stormsinger 7/Bard +4/Stormsinger +3/Bard +1

32pb

8 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
16 Int
8 Wis
16 Cha

F. Noncombatant
F. Vulnerable
Feats & ACFs:
ACF. Bardic Knack (ACF)
ACF. Spellbreaker Song (ACF)
ACF. Healing Hymn (ACF)
1. Magical Aptitude
H1. Dragonfire Inspiration
F1. Storm Magic
F1. Melodic Casting
3. Obtain Familiar
B3. Song of the Heart (ACF)
6. Words of Creation
9. Improved Familiar: Pseudodragon
12. Imperious Command
B13. Haunting Melody (ACF)
15. Extraordinary Spell Aim
18. Heighten Spell

Spells known:
0. Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Songbird, Message, Read Magic, Ghost Sound
1. Grease, Instant of Power, Improvisation, Inspirational Boost, Unseen Servant
2. Glitterdust, Cloud of Bewilderment, Alter Self, Silence, Harmonize, (Detect Thoughts)
3. Glibness, Slow, Ray of Dizziness, Haste, Alter Fortune, Scrying, (Charm Monster)
4. Freedom of Movement, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Celerity, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Conjuration, (Blinding Beauty), (Dimension Door)
5. Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Blink, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Walk, Persistent Image, (Mass Suggestion)
6. Superior Resistance, Irresistible Dance, Summon Monster VI, Nixie's Grace, (Project Image), (Familial Geas)

Basically, the combination of Harmonize and offensive Bardic Music makes for triplecasting each turn. Immediate Action spells mostly take up the swift actions. This build makes great use of the lower level options Bard has available compared to many other casters and fills in on many of the normally arcane roles. Irresistible Dance completely wrecks enemies that are not immune to mind-affecting and while the Summon Monster VI lacks combat prowess, the combination of Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation and SMVI ensures that you can solve basically any problems and access basically any abilities. Shadow Conjuration also helps shore up stuff like Greater Mage Armor, Phantom Steed and company you might have trouble accessing otherwise. Good immediate action interrupts and such, lots of big area offensive powers like Control Winds, Control Weather, Storm of Vengeance through Stormsinger and good buff suite with Dragonfire Inspiration, Inspire Greatness (Vest of Legends buffs both up too) and all the usual Bard-stuff on top of it. I'd do skills and level breakdown but I don't have the time right now.


Skills:
Use Magic Device 23 ranks
Perform (Sing) 23 ranks
Diplomacy 23 ranks
Bluff 23 ranks
Spellcraft 23 ranks
Sleight of Hand 23 ranks
Knowledge: Nobility 5 ranks
Knowledges: 1 rank each (9 points)
Decipher Script 1 rank
Tumble 1 rank

Skill Tricks:
Conceal Spellcasting
False Theurgy

[AnimeTheCat]

I guess you don't want a Tier 1 Bard á la Sublime Chord. The build would basically build itself: Bard 20 with Dragonfire Inspiration and all the Inspire Courage bonuses. That would actually be really strong with both, a Ninja and a Crusader in the party and even the Bard being able to enter melee if desired, but here's something a bit different to cover the offensive arcane caster's role while still providing most of the support (most importantly fair Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness):

Silverbrow Human Bard 5/Stormsinger 7/Bard +5/Stormsinger +3/Bard +1

F. Noncombatant
F. Vulnerable
Feats & ACFs:
ACF. Bardic Knack (ACF)
ACF. Spellbreaker Song (ACF)
ACF. Healing Hymn (ACF)
1. Magical Aptitude
H. Dragonfire Inspiration
F. Storm Magic
F. Melodic Casting
3. Obtain Familiar
B. Song of the Heart (ACF)
6. Words of Creation
9. Improved Familiar: Pseudodragon
12. Extraordinary Spell Aim
15. Haunting Melody
18. Versatile Spellcaster

Spells known:
0. Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Songbird, Message, Read Magic, Ghost Sound
1. Grease, Instant of Power, Improvisation, Inspirational Boost, Charm Person, (Unseen Servant)
2. Glitterdust, Sonorous Hum, Alter Self, Silence, Harmonize
3. Glibness, Slow, Confusion, Haste, Alter Fortune, Scrying
4. Freedom of Movement, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Celerity, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Conjuration, (Blinding Beauty)
5. Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Blink, Shadow Evocation, Greater Heroism, Persistent Image
6. Superior Resistance, Irresistible Dance, Summon Monster VI, Nixie's Grace, (Project Image), (Geas)

Basically, the combination of Harmonize and offensive Bardic Music makes for triplecasting each turn. Immediate Action spells mostly take up the swift actions. This build makes great use of the lower level options Bard has available compared to many other casters and fills in on many of the normally arcane roles. Irresistible Dance completely wrecks enemies that are not immune to mind-affecting and while the Summon Monster VI lacks combat prowess, the combination of Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation and SMVI ensures that you can solve basically any problems and access basically any abilities. Shadow Conjuration also helps shore up stuff like Greater Mage Armor, Phantom Steed and company you might have trouble accessing otherwise. Good immediate action interrupts and such, lots of big area offensive powers like Control Winds, Control Weather, Storm of Vengeance through Stormsinger and good buff suite with Dragonfire Inspiration, Inspire Greatness (Vest of Legends buffs both up too) and all the usual Bard-stuff on top of it. I'd do skills and level breakdown but I don't have the time right now.

That's great. If this is just a 1-20 build that will fit all the different stress points could you define which spells are selected at which levels for the sake of knowing what's available at those points? That's going to be one of the key parts in the scenarios.

On a different note, I've never done a play by post or anything, but would the creators of the various different classes be willing to do something of that nature (on a different thread on the appropriate forum of course) so that you can really showcase how the different abilities are highlighted at the different power levels? Does that seem like a good idea or is that a bad idea? I'm just not sure tbh.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
On a different note, I've never done a play by post or anything, but would the creators of the various different classes be willing to do something of that nature (on a different thread on the appropriate forum of course) so that you can really showcase how the different abilities are highlighted at the different power levels? Does that seem like a good idea or is that a bad idea? I'm just not sure tbh.

Do you mean that you’d like to take us through a series of scenarios, essentially running a mini-campaign, where we each play our creation on PbP?

Or did you just mean a separate thread for presenting the builds? I’m fine either way.


Originally Posted by Eldariel
*snip*

So, Eldariel just flew his Incom T-65 at top speed down the Death Star’s main trench and dropped a proton torpedo right in the exhaust port.

Meanwhile I’m still trying to get the engine started on my Sopwith Camel. Where’s the oil pan?

[Coretron03]

That's great. If this is just a 1-20 build that will fit all the different stress points could you define which spells are selected at which levels for the sake of knowing what's available at those points? That's going to be one of the key parts in the scenarios.

On a different note, I've never done a play by post or anything, but would the creators of the various different classes be willing to do something of that nature (on a different thread on the appropriate forum of course) so that you can really showcase how the different abilities are highlighted at the different power levels? Does that seem like a good idea or is that a bad idea? I'm just not sure tbh.

The Crusader i'm builing is intedned to work in a group scenario, as he has abilities that give penalties on attacks against allies who aren't me, prevents attacks of opportunity and gives people additional turns. It seems like a good idea if it is Group-based.

On a side note, Level 6 crusader is mostly ready, just have some money I need to spend. He also can teleport 50ft as a standard action prwtty much at-will:
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1279317

[Palanan]

Okay, I need a DM ruling here:

For our purposes, can the Swanmay PrC advance spellcasting for the healer?

[Eldariel]

That's great. If this is just a 1-20 build that will fit all the different stress points could you define which spells are selected at which levels for the sake of knowing what's available at those points? That's going to be one of the key parts in the scenarios.

On a different note, I've never done a play by post or anything, but would the creators of the various different classes be willing to do something of that nature (on a different thread on the appropriate forum of course) so that you can really showcase how the different abilities are highlighted at the different power levels? Does that seem like a good idea or is that a bad idea? I'm just not sure tbh.

Yeah, I'll do that soon as I have the time - unfortunately it's a bit of work since I'll need to purchase the equipment and do the skill ranks as well and I'm still mulling over things this build can't cover that would normally be covered by the arcanist, and the optimality of all the feats (at this point the build lacks a flat Teleport, True Seeing, Arcane Sight, Contact Other Plane, Antimagic Field, and a few other key functions of an arcanist). I'm also pondering including a Wild Cohort for an extra body to buff and whether to make room for a crafting feat. But yeah, I'll try and do that all soon - I have the leveling roughly thought out but I'll need to write it out once I've ironed out the details. Also, the build unfortunately has a peak at 10, not 9, due to Stormsinger particularities.

[AnimeTheCat]

Okay, I need a DM ruling here:

For our purposes, can the Swanmay PrC advance spellcasting for the healer?

As long as you're getting wild empathy from somewhere, the prestige class can advance whatever spell casting class you were in to qualify for swanmay.


Yeah, I'll do that soon as I have the time - unfortunately it's a bit of work since I'll need to purchase the equipment and do the skill ranks as well and I'm still mulling over things this build can't cover that would normally be covered by the arcanist, and the optimality of all the feats (at this point the build lacks a flat Teleport, True Seeing, Arcane Sight, Contact Other Plane, Antimagic Field, and a few other key functions of an arcanist). I'm also pondering including a Wild Cohort for an extra body to buff and whether to make room for a crafting feat. But yeah, I'll try and do that all soon - I have the leveling roughly thought out but I'll need to write it out once I've ironed out the details. Also, the build unfortunately has a peak at 10, not 9, due to Stormsinger particularities.

Sounds great. I'll be working on the encounters/mini scenarios this weekend and all next week. I'll also be familiarizing myself with how PbP works if that is something everyone would be interested. We can figure things out based on average rolls all day, but no one knows the full power of a creation like the creator.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
As long as you're getting wild empathy from somewhere, the prestige class can advance whatever spell casting class you were in to qualify for swanmay.

Thank you—this is perfect for what I have in mind.


Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
…no one knows the full power of a creation like the creator.

Mu ha.

:smalltongue:

[Karl Aegis]

Human Bardic Knack Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3

Feats:
Melodic Casting
Power Attack (B)
Snowflake Wardance
Knowledge Devotion
Captivating Melody (B)
Combat Casting


Strength: 16
Dexterity: 12 (14)
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 16 (18)



(6) Mending, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Summon Instrument, Prestidigitation, Message
(6) Swift Invisibility, Inspirational Boost, Magic Aura, Silent Image + Shield
(6)Sonic Weapon, Sound Burst, Glitterdust, Tongues +Wraithstrike
(4) Haste, Cure Serious Wounds, Deep Slumber



+2 Chain Shirt
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Ring of Protection
+2 Gloves of Dexterity
+2 Cloak of Charisma
+1 Harmonizing Longsword
+2 Vest of Resistance
+1 Composite Shortbow (+3)



Hit Points: 52
Initiative +2
BAB+6/+1
Melee Attack +9/+4
Ranged Attack +8/+3
AC 20 (24 with Shield) 13 Touch 18 Flat-Footed
Fortitude +7
Reflex +12
Will +10


I probably do have more gold to spend and skills to take, but the only important note for skills is I max out Perform (Dance) to not waste the points to qualify for Snowflake Wardance, but I have a rank in Perform (Sing) to activate Inspire Courage with.

[Karl Aegis]

Half-Orc Ninja 4 / Fighter 4 / Wild Shape Ranger 1

Feats:
Power Attack
Cometary Collision
Weapon Focus (Longspear) (B)
Martial Stalker
Weapon Specialization (Longspear) (B)
Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) (B)
Leap Attack


Strength: 22 (24)
Dexterity: 14 (16)
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 6
Wisdom: 12
Charisma: 6



+1 Shocking Longspear
+3 Bracers of Armor
+2 Vest of Resistance
+2 Gauntlets of Ogre Strength
+2 Boots of Dexterity
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Ring of Protection
Goggles of Minute Seeing



Hit Points: 61
Initiative +3
BAB+8/+3
Melee Attack +19/+14
Ranged Attack +12/+7
AC 19 15 Touch 15 Flat-Footed
Fortitude +11
Reflex +12
Will +5


Lurk around stuff with Hide and Move Silently and charge things charging your team for Sudden Strike damage and Leap Attack with Cometary Collision. Sorry Ninja 5, you didn't make the cut. I needed that point of BAB before level 9 for a feat.

[AnimeTheCat]

Half-Orc Ninja 4 / Fighter 4 / Wild Shape Ranger 1

Lurk around stuff with Hide and Move Silently and charge things charging your team for Sudden Strike damage and Leap Attack with Cometary Collision. Sorry Ninja 5, you didn't make the cut. I needed that point of BAB before level 9 for a feat.

The above stub would be illegal for the purposes of this exercise. Your collective non-ninja classes exceed your levels of the ninja class. Ninja 5/fighter 4/ranger 1 would be legal however.

[Karl Aegis]

The above stub would be illegal for the purposes of this exercise. Your collective non-ninja classes exceed your levels of the ninja class. Ninja 5/fighter 4/ranger 1 would be legal however.

Would Frostblood Half-Orc Ninja 4 Fighter 4 Bearlord 1 suit you better?

Edit: I fixed it

Human Ninja 4 / Fighter 2 / Pious Templar 3

Feats:
True Believer (B)
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush(B)
Cometary Collision
Weapon Focus (Longspear) (B)
Weapon Specialization (Longspear) (B)
Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)


Strength: 18 (20)
Dexterity: 14 (16)
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 10



+1 Frost Longspear
+2 Bracers of Armor
+2 Vest of Resistance
+2 Gauntlets of Ogre Strength
+2 Boots of Dexterity
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Ring of Protection
Goggles of Minute Seeing



Hit Points: 62
Initiative +3
BAB+8/+3
Melee Attack +17/+12
Ranged Attack +12/+7
AC 19 16 Touch 15 Flat-Footed
Fortitude +11
Reflex +10
Will +10
Mettle
Damage Reduction 1/-

Sacrifices Martial Stalker and Leap Attack for Rhino's Rush.

[AnimeTheCat]

Ok, I've posed a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?531282-3-5-Stress-Testing-the-Party) in the Out of Character PbP forum. Please populate your characters for the level 1 run there. I've included a template that I would like everyone to use in the original post.

[Palanan]

Okay, I’ll try to add my first-level healer later tonight or tomorrow.

Also, my initial build stub will be Healer 4/Ranger 1/Swanmay 1/Knight of the Raven 3. Not sure how I’ll finish it yet, but I’ll probably fill it out with levels from the first three classes. Never mind optimizing, this is a class that’s difficult just to keep standing upright.

[AnimeTheCat]

Never mind optimizing, this is a class that’s difficult just to keep standing upright.

You really think So? I've played one a couple of times and I love the class. I've replaced most of my clerics with healers in my campaigns and left the clerics to high ranking priests or the select few devout ones that are in training.

[Palanan]

Okay, I need another DM ruling, this time about the Swanmay’s shifting ability. Here’s the text from p. 77 of the Book of Exalted Deeds:


The hallmark of the swanmay is the ability to assume the form of a swan…. This is identical to the druid’s wild shape ability, except that the swanmay can only assume the form of a swan.

Given this, can the swanmay be considered to have the wild shape ability for the purposes of Natural Spell?

[Palanan]

Is this still on?

I'm just about ready to post my first-level build, but would like to hear back from the DM on my last question. I sent a PM, never got a reply.