Unarmed barb/fighter/frenzied berserker

[wizrdskills]

I have been toying with the idea of making a raging monk that can't control his/her chi and therefore flies into a rage instead of remaining calm and controlled. As per rules and alignment this isn't possible without DM consent so I came up with my own concoction of shorts and was hoping to get your guy's input.

The character in question will be human with 2 flaws to start. I did add stunning fist and fiery first for flavor as to the burning rage inside but could always do without or with other suggestions.
* = feats
No stats to build off of yet mainly just toying with the idea.

Here is my thought.

1 barbarian
Fast movement
Illiteracy
Rage 1/day
Flaw, Extra rage
Flaw, Reckless rage
* Two weapon fighting
* Improved unarmed strike
2 fighter
* stunning fist
3 fighter
* Intimidating rage
4 fighter
5 fighter
* Superior unarmed strike
6 fighter
* Improved two weapon fighting
7 fighter
* Power attack
8 fighter
9 fighter
* Extra stunning fist
* Fiery fist
10 fighter
11 fighter
* Greater two weapon fighting
12 fighter
* Cleave
13 fighter
* Destructive rage
14 frenzied berserker
Frenzy 1/day
Die hard
15 frenzied berserker
Supreme cleave
* Mad foam rager
* Extra Frenzy
16 frenzied berserker
Frenzy 2/day
17 frenzied berserker
Deathless frenzy
18 frenzied berserker
Frenzy 3/day
Improved power attack
* Extra rage
19 frenzied berserker
Inspire frenzy 1/day
20 frenzied berserker
Frenzy 4/day

[Blackhawk748]

I recommend dipping Fist of the Forest as it gets you Con to AC and buffs your unarmed damage.

[gorfnab]

Try this for the first two levels (does not include feats).

1. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF (CC), Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA), City Brawler ACF (Drg#349) , Skilled City Dweller (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (trade Ride for Tumble)
2. Barbarian - Wolf Totem ACF (UA)

The City Brawler ACF trades the Barbarian's martial weapon proficiency and medium armor proficiency for Improved Unarmed Strike and Two Weapon Fighting (applying to only Unarmed Strikes). Spirit Totem: Lion gives you Pounce, letting you keep your movement up while still being able to full attack most of the time. Whirling Frenzy is a Rage variant that nets you an extra attack per round. Wolf Totem nets you Improved Trip in exchange for Uncanny Dodge.

[flappeercraft]

You cant take Stunning fist at level 2, you need Base Attack +8 for that, monks have it only because it's a bonus feat which ignores prerequisites.

[wizrdskills]

Try this for the first two levels (does not include feats).

1. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF (CC), Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA), City Brawler ACF (Drg#349) , Skilled City Dweller (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (trade Ride for Tumble)
2. Barbarian - Wolf Totem ACF (UA)

The City Brawler ACF trades the Barbarian's martial weapon proficiency and medium armor proficiency for Improved Unarmed Strike and Two Weapon Fighting (applying to only Unarmed Strikes). Spirit Totem: Lion gives you Pounce, letting you keep your movement up while still being able to full attack most of the time. Whirling Frenzy is a Rage variant that nets you an extra attack per round. Wolf Totem nets you Improved Trip in exchange for Uncanny Dodge.

Thanks for the input I'll try and rework my build a bit.


You cant take Stunning fist at level 2, you need Base Attack +8 for that, monks have it only because it's a bonus feat which ignores prerequisites.

Ah crap I totally forgot about that, thanks

[wizrdskills]

I recommend dipping Fist of the Forest as it gets you Con to AC and buffs your unarmed damage.

Ooh I'll look into that as well, thanks

[gorfnab]

The Shou Disciple prestige class from Unapproachable East also works well with an unarmed martial type build.


I have been toying with the idea of making a raging monk that can't control his/her chi and therefore flies into a rage instead of remaining calm and controlled. As per rules and alignment this isn't possible without DM consent so I came up with my own concoction of shorts and was hoping to get your guy's input.

There is a Chaotic aligned Monk variant called the Chaos Monk, it's in Dragon #335.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not sure if unarmed strikes work with TWF like that, but if it does, then not too bad. May I suggest Versatile Unarmed Strike(PHB II)? You can change the damage type to piercing or slashing then.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm not sure if unarmed strikes work with TWF like that, but if it does, then not too bad. May I suggest Versatile Unarmed Strike(PHB II)? You can change the damage type to piercing or slashing then.

Unarmed Strikes work easily with TWF. People just get confused with the monk US saying "That there is no offhand attacks for monks unarmed strike" which is referring to the fact that monks can freely chose and alter between body parts.
The TWF feat chain gives you offhand-attacks (specific trumps general) with your unarmed strikes. There is really no point to debate about it. Apply the rules and see that it works ;)


______________________________

1. I missing pounce ACF for Barbs. You need pounce for most melee builds to do any noticeable dmg (due to charge bonus multipliers from feats & equipment).

2. unarmed charge build calls for "Stagger", a Drunken Master 2 ability, which lets your freely change directions and enables you to charge every round (and keep your dmg bonuses at max all the time). And not to forget DM also gives you "Drink-like-a-Demon", beside from its combat usage, it's a really strong and cool social encounter ability!^^

3. And while we are at charge builds: Shock Trooper (and Imp. Bullrush as requirement) is also mandatory for charge builds.

4. Superior Unarmed Strike is a waste of a feat. Since it's an effect and not an (untyped) bonus (no mention of the keyword bonus!), it doesn't stack with Monk's Belt which does the same better and gives other effects besides from unarmed strike progression too! The only thing that stacks here is the already mentioned Fist of the Forest prc. Cause FotF work different than the other 2. FotF improves your unarmed strike dmg to the next step ( != "your unarmed strikes count as X lvl higher"). To have full 20 lvls of monks unarmed strike progression you need: 11 lvls of monk (or prc that further improve) unarmed strike progression, a Monk's Belt and FotF 1. Or 7 lvls of unarmed strike progression, a Monk's Belt and FotF 3.

5. If you really intend to go the Frenzied Berserker route, I would recommend to get "Iron Heart Surge" somehow. Either with a single lvl dip into a maneuver class from ToB or an magic item that gives you the maneuver (alternated version of the crown found in ToB. alternated rules are in the description). IHS itself is already a strong power to get rid of most unwanted effects. But in the Hands of a Frenzied Berserker it's godlike. You can cancel your Rage and even the side effects of it (with a separate 2nd use of IHS). This will ensure that you don't kill your party members.

6. Cleave is already questionable imho, but greater Cleave is definitively to overpriced and situational to be worth it.

7. Rage related feats aren't worth their money either most of the time imho. Extra Rage/Frenzy only if your group is really constantly fighting more than 4 combats a day, otherwise wasted.
Destructive Rage.. really? I really don't see the point of this feat in the build. useless overweight.
While Intimidating Rage at least has some value (spamable), it's not worth it either. Ditch the useless Fighter lvls and take something useful instead (maybe dip into clawlock and get some nice invocation buffs or a maneuver class from ToB would be much more usefull).

8. TWF ain't bad, but ain't mandatory either. Another bunch of feats (fighter lvls) that could be used more effective imho.

I can recommend to have a look at my Clawlock build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish). It's an unarmed build, which also includes some rage and is themed to be predator like. You can get inspiration for build and equipment there.

[mastermisha1]

Depending on your wisdom, the Ring the Golden Bell feat from dragon compendium may be fun.

[BearonVonMu]

Pathfinder's Martial Artist archetype for the monk allows any alignment. It looks like you are using 3.5 rules, but perhaps that could be backported to make the build viable?

[wizrdskills]

Unarmed Strikes work easily with TWF. People just get confused with the monk US saying "That there is no offhand attacks for monks unarmed strike" which is referring to the fact that monks can freely chose and alter between body parts.
The TWF feat chain gives you offhand-attacks (specific trumps general) with your unarmed strikes. There is really no point to debate about it. Apply the rules and see that it works ;)


______________________________

1. I missing pounce ACF for Barbs. You need pounce for most melee builds to do any noticeable dmg (due to charge bonus multipliers from feats & equipment).

2. unarmed charge build calls for "Stagger", a Drunken Master 2 ability, which lets your freely change directions and enables you to charge every round (and keep your dmg bonuses at max all the time). And not to forget DM also gives you "Drink-like-a-Demon", beside from its combat usage, it's a really strong and cool social encounter ability!^^

3. And while we are at charge builds: Shock Trooper (and Imp. Bullrush as requirement) is also mandatory for charge builds.

4. Superior Unarmed Strike is a waste of a feat. Since it's an effect and not an (untyped) bonus (no mention of the keyword bonus!), it doesn't stack with Monk's Belt which does the same better and gives other effects besides from unarmed strike progression too! The only thing that stacks here is the already mentioned Fist of the Forest prc. Cause FotF work different than the other 2. FotF improves your unarmed strike dmg to the next step ( != "your unarmed strikes count as X lvl higher"). To have full 20 lvls of monks unarmed strike progression you need: 11 lvls of monk (or prc that further improve) unarmed strike progression, a Monk's Belt and FotF 1. Or 7 lvls of unarmed strike progression, a Monk's Belt and FotF 3.

5. If you really intend to go the Frenzied Berserker route, I would recommend to get "Iron Heart Surge" somehow. Either with a single lvl dip into a maneuver class from ToB or an magic item that gives you the maneuver (alternated version of the crown found in ToB. alternated rules are in the description). IHS itself is already a strong power to get rid of most unwanted effects. But in the Hands of a Frenzied Berserker it's godlike. You can cancel your Rage and even the side effects of it (with a separate 2nd use of IHS). This will ensure that you don't kill your party members.

6. Cleave is already questionable imho, but greater Cleave is definitively to overpriced and situational to be worth it.

7. Rage related feats aren't worth their money either most of the time imho. Extra Rage/Frenzy only if your group is really constantly fighting more than 4 combats a day, otherwise wasted.
Destructive Rage.. really? I really don't see the point of this feat in the build. useless overweight.
While Intimidating Rage at least has some value (spamable), it's not worth it either. Ditch the useless Fighter lvls and take something useful instead (maybe dip into clawlock and get some nice invocation buffs or a maneuver class from ToB would be much more usefull).

8. TWF ain't bad, but ain't mandatory either. Another bunch of feats (fighter lvls) that could be used more effective imho.

I can recommend to have a look at my Clawlock build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish). It's an unarmed build, which also includes some rage and is themed to be predator like. You can get inspiration for build and equipment there.

You have a lot of good points, sadly tob is not allowed at our table and the only reason I have taken certain rage feats is for prereq requirements

[Gruftzwerg]

You have a lot of good points, sadly tob is not allowed at our table and the only reason I have taken certain rage feats is for prereq requirements


the clawlock build doesn't make heavy use of ToB. The important part is that Enlightened Fist does progress unarmed strike and the warlock invocation/eldritch blast progression. Together with Beast Strike this will neat in a big dmg increase.

Further Pounce (Barb1 ACF) & Stagger (Drunken Master 2) are the more important parts to get charge multipliers every turn (Leap Attack, Combat Brute, if you can fly "Dive Attack"/charge, Valorous weapon enchantment..). This part is almost a must have imho. Constant high dps is better than situational high dps.

[Remuko]

You could always just use the chaos monk which cant be lawful (iirc) then you can dual class it with barbarian freely.

[Thurbane]

A dip into Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium p.62) can also get IUS at lower levels.

[Gruftzwerg]

A dip into Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium p.62) can also get IUS at lower levels.

Imho not worth it. IUS doesn't stack with Monk's Belt. And the belt even offers more than IUS. There is no reason for PC to aim for IUS unless you go for Poly/shapechange and have problems to keep your monk's belts effect ongoing.

[ShurikVch]

Several things - not necessarily "must have", but definitely worth mentioning:

"Raging Monk" is a thing - in Dragon #310

12 levels of Fighter, and it doesn't mentioned neither Dungeon Crusher, nor Zhentarim Soldier?

Martial Study and Martial Stance are, in fact, Fighter's bonus feats - so, how about to pick some? (For example, something from Tiger Claw may be very thematic...)

Fierce Grappler PrC (Dragon #295) gets +1 die size of Unarmed Strike at 2nd level, and +1 more - at 4th; also, able to grapple creatures who're 2 size categories bigger

Primal Rager PrC (same article in #295) gets +1 die size of Unarmed Strike at 1st level, and +1 more - at 3rd; at capstone, during Rage, Unarmed Strike gets +1 more size, and cause slashing damage (fluffed as growing claws, but doesn't work on RAW for claws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#claworTalon)); also, able to temporary suppress Rage with Will save (suppressed Rage isn't stopped - it's just "on pause")

Firestorm Berserker (Dragon #314) - Inner Inferno CF allow you to prolong your Rage for as long as you will ever need it (Con damage may be easily fixed by Naberius)

Khyber’s Fury feat (Dragon #332) - since you don't specified neither alignment, nor setting - +2 more Str in Rage to the follower of Dragon Below (at the cost of -4 more to AC)



4. Superior Unarmed Strike is a waste of a feat. Since it's an effect and not an (untyped) bonus (no mention of the keyword bonus!), it doesn't stack with Monk's Belt which does the same better and gives other effects besides from unarmed strike progression too! The only thing that stacks here is the already mentioned Fist of the Forest prc. Cause FotF work different than the other 2. FotF improves your unarmed strike dmg to the next step ( != "your unarmed strikes count as X lvl higher"). To have full 20 lvls of monks unarmed strike progression you need: 11 lvls of monk (or prc that further improve) unarmed strike progression, a Monk's Belt and FotF 1. Or 7 lvls of unarmed strike progression, a Monk's Belt and FotF 3.Please, excuse me, but how the heck Monk's Belt "does the same better"?
Non-Monks are getting from it unarmed damage as a 5th-level Monk - 1d8 for Medium-sized
It's very unlikely to afford Monk's Belt before the 8th level
Superior Unarmed Strike at 8th level gives the same 1d8 damage, and surpassing it at 12 level
What else?
AC bonus? wizrdskills doesn't said "unarmored", so - in case of any armor - it's wasted
+1/day of Stunning Fist? OK.
It's it?
Sure, you may point it's "money instead a feat"; but counter-point is "occupied body slot"...

[Gruftzwerg]

Please, excuse me, but how the heck Monk's Belt "does the same better"?
Non-Monks are getting from it unarmed damage as a 5th-level Monk - 1d8 for Medium-sized
It's very unlikely to afford Monk's Belt before the 8th level
Superior Unarmed Strike at 8th level gives the same 1d8 damage, and surpassing it at 12 level
What else?
AC bonus? wizrdskills doesn't said "unarmored", so - in case of any armor - it's wasted
+1/day of Stunning Fist? OK.
It's it?
Sure, you may point it's "money instead a feat"; but counter-point is "occupied body slot"...

you forgot monk unarmed movementspeed. and yeah things add up:
+10ft movement-speed, +1 untyped AC bonus & Wis to AC,+1 stunning fist. much more than SUS offers..

if you are a monk (we had several suggestions here), SUS reads, "your unarmed strikes count as a monk 4 lvl higher" which doesn't stack with monk's belt.
Further its not worth the (expensive) feat it costs. You get at lvl 20 an attack with an average dmg of 7 (2x 3.5 as non monk). Other feat combinations earn much more dmg.

On the other side, you can get a monk's belt which gives you free feat (IUS) and the other stuff for a 5th lvl monk (or 5lvl higher monk).

edit: and if the intention should be to max unarmed dmg, SUS still can't compete, since its lower than 20th lvl monk as a non monk. And builds which include monk lvls profit more from monks belt.

[ShurikVch]

you forgot monk unarmed movementspeed. and yeah things add up:
+10ft movement-speed, +1 untyped AC bonus & Wis to AC,+1 stunning fist. much more than SUS offers..No, I doesn't forget it - no such bonus, please, check it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks).

edit: and if the intention should be to max unarmed dmg, SUS still can't compete, since its lower than 20th lvl monk as a non monk. And builds which include monk lvls profit more from monks belt.Except Monk 20 is ungodly suboptimal - it's worse than Barbarian 20, or even PO Fighter 20

[Gruftzwerg]

No, I doesn't forget it - no such bonus, please, check it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks).
oh yeah, my bad sry. Somehow twisted it with "Monk's Tattoo" which includes monk speed. sry for that^^.



Except Monk 20 is ungodly suboptimal - it's worse than Barbarian 20, or even PO Fighter 20

But you can get the dmg of an unarmed monk 20 without 20 lvls of monk.

a)
11 lvls of monk (or monk progressing prc) + Monk's Belt + First of the Forest 1 lvl

or

b)
7 lvls of monk + Monk's Belt + Fist of the Forest 3 lvls

and these options ain't suboptimal (for a non-full-caster / HP dmg build) since it can really shine in a clawlock ubercharger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish)build.

Sure you could try to go a similar route with SUS, but will get lower results in terms of dmg, since you are 2 feats shorter and have the lower unarmed dmg progress compared to builds with unarmed dmg of monk 20.

[ShurikVch]

Sure you could try to go a similar route with SUS, but will get lower results in terms of dmg, since you are 2 feats shorter and have the lower unarmed dmg progress compared to builds with unarmed dmg of monk 20.1. How is it "lower unarmed dmg"?
Last time I checked, it's just 1 die size, and Monk can't get it higher, period
Such difference may be simply fixed by dip in FotF or IotDM (or aforementioned Fierce Grappler and Primal Rager)
Shou Disciple may have at 10th character level same unarmed damage as Monk 20

2. About the "you are 2 feats shorter":
firstly, OP build have 12 levels of Fighter - thus, 7 bonus feats (unless ACF);
and secondly - IUS is a prerequisite to a huge number of things - unless you're really doesn't need any of them, it's not much of a burden to take it

[Gruftzwerg]

1. How is it "lower unarmed dmg"?
Last time I checked, it's just 1 die size, and Monk can't get it higher, period
Such difference may be simply fixed by dip in FotF or IotDM (or aforementioned Fierce Grappler and Primal Rager)
Shou Disciple may have at 10th character level same unarmed damage as Monk 20

2. About the "you are 2 feats shorter":
firstly, OP build have 12 levels of Fighter - thus, 7 bonus feats (unless ACF);
and secondly - IUS is a prerequisite to a huge number of things - unless you're really doesn't need any of them, it's not much of a burden to take it

we compare 2d6 to 2d10

d6, d8, d10

Imho that are two dice steps difference.
You would need FotF 3 for that.

And yeah OP build has 12 feats, but most of them are medicore to useless and are a waste of lvls on fighter to begin with, buts that's another point for itself. Why waste fighter lvls on IUS? Why not dip into monk or unarmed swordsage and get some extra stuff along with that? If you need to take IUS and have lvls to spare > dip monk or unarmed swordsage.


@ shou disciple:
I mentioned "monk or monk progressing prc". This includes Shou Disciple. I was never talking about pure monk 20, just the unarmed dmg of it. Maybe you got me wrong on this.

[ATHATH]

Er... You DO know that the Ordered Chaos feat is a thing, right?