PTU - Amateur Tourney

[thedanster7000]

The competitors:



Trainer
Classes
Mon 1
Mon 2
Sheet
Sprite


thedanster7000 - Geoff
Ace Trainer/Commander/Mentor/Speed Ace
Abra
Turty (Turtwig)
Sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15-BKwj9hP6o1TxqmBHDaAxFNfgpkZh0XrH0IgfWsCUw/edit?usp=sharing)
http://i.imgur.com/lDFwy5x.png


supernerd - Kirk
Ace Trainer/Duelist
Bunsen (Magnemite)
Hermit (Dwebble)
Sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hY4RQyn8PlmmlD29NoutUJWI_YnWeoCCk54MF8FKxy4)
http://i.imgur.com/KsdYmH5.png


Arcran - Joseph Sarque
Chef/Commander
Genevieve (Riolu)
Jeeves (Buneary)
Sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12vpm4WKYky51-7xvB_vJSPsBG4yDsXNqkV5mX-DUgnk/edit#gid=0)
http://i.imgur.com/hCn8rEW.png



The Walrus - Wally
Enduring Soul/Duelist
Cheddar (Gastly)
Swiss (Beautifly)
Sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z7o-PVLEA2ah7zyJi2VGkettjRE-ZkECKPP34-6mb3Y/edit#gid=1285328774)
http://i.imgur.com/ub0aQJH.png



The results:



Battle
1st Competitor
2nd Competitor
Winner


Round 1
Joseph
Kirk
Kirk


Round 1
Wally
Geoff
Wally


Runners Up Final
Geoff
Joseph



Final
Wally
Kirk

[The Walrus]

Is there going to be a referee/GM for this tournament? That would allow for submitting sheets in secret, so the last person to post their sheet can't just make a build specifically designed to counter everyone else's.

A few more questions to sort out:

1. Is this tournament single elimination, round robin, or something else?
2. Any flight ceiling or other limit to how high our 'mons can go?
3. Is burrowing possible in this arena?
4. Is material from GoT and DPDoM allowed?

Also, if we're going by the exact Amateur ruleset on Pokemon-by-Post, Thunder Wave isn't allowed on Abra. "In the Amateur League, TM moves must follow the restrictions on tutor moves, as in the September Playtest Packet. In other words, the moves must be of At-Will or EOT frequency, with a DB of at most 7."

[thedanster7000]

Is there going to be a referee/GM for this tournament? That would allow for submitting sheets in secret, so the last person to post their sheet can't just make a build specifically designed to counter everyone else's.

A few more questions to sort out:

1. Is this tournament single elimination, round robin, or something else?
2. Any flight ceiling or other limit to how high our 'mons can go?
3. Is burrowing possible in this arena?
4. Is material from GoT and DPDoM allowed?

Also, if we're going by the exact Amateur ruleset on Pokemon-by-Post, Thunder Wave isn't allowed on Abra. "In the Amateur League, TM moves must follow the restrictions on tutor moves, as in the September Playtest Packet. In other words, the moves must be of At-Will or EOT frequency, with a DB of at most 7."
No, I get where you're coming from but they're up now anyway, and the Amateur League rules allow you to see each other's sheets due to the nature of the listings. (But in retrospect, yes, that would have been a better idea).

1. Elimination, and the runners up will battle before the final to determine the low-end positions.
2. I'll call it 5 metres, this is so flying 'mons still have an advantage, but can't just fly out of range to stall.
3. Yes; the arena is 2 metres high, so that'll be considered for things like fall damage off of it as well.
4. No, I want to keep this more like a traditional sort of tournament from the anime.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that. Correcting that now. :smallsmile:

Also: Once the tournament has begun, no-one can change their builds (sort of a given, but just thought I'd clarify).

[Arcran]

Here we go! Joseph is ready to battle! (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12vpm4WKYky51-7xvB_vJSPsBG4yDsXNqkV5mX-DUgnk/edit?usp=sharing)

And here's my sprite: http://imgur.com/dZeRCnY.png

[The Walrus]

I haven't picked out a sprite yet, but Wally, cultist of Victini (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z7o-PVLEA2ah7zyJi2VGkettjRE-ZkECKPP34-6mb3Y/edit?usp=sharing) is also ready to fight.

[thedanster7000]

Alright cool, I'm away from my PC right now but when I get back I'll set up all the Pokémon and sprites on the Roll20. I've randomly generated the matchups and the first battle is between Arcran and supernerd!

EDIT: Got Arcran's sprites up (lower-quality than usual because I don't have my editing software but it'll do for now), so the first battle can begin!

[supernerd]

So we've both got Speed 14, do we do a roll off?

[Arcran]

Trainer Speed shouldn't matter since all Orders are Priority [Limited] and we're theoretically releasing at the same time.

Speaking of that, how should we handle that? PM somebody the first 'mon we're using?

[thedanster7000]

Yeah, you guys PM me them.

[Arcran]

Sounds good!

Can we basically just start the battle whenever we want? Or do we need to wait for something?

[thedanster7000]

Go ahead, try to keep a little IC rp going in the Roll20 if you can, and go to me or the forums with any potential rules disputes.

Looking forward to seeing how this goes!

[Arcran]

Well, let's get this show on the road then! Time for some high quality PvP and low quality RP! :smalltongue:

[supernerd]

So it looks like the next pair is up. Kirk won at the very last moment.

[Arcran]

Yep! Really close battle that came down to the last few rolls!

[The Walrus]

Here's my sprite: http://i.imgur.com/NmAFE4p.png.

I guess thedanster7000 and I are up next?

Arcran, I'd be happy to have a match with you after all the others if you want to test your "Yeah, you're the only one that can beat me at least" theory.

[Arcran]

Here's my sprite: http://i.imgur.com/NmAFE4p.png.

I guess thedanster7000 and I are up next?

Arcran, I'd be happy to have a match with you after all the others if you want to test your "Yeah, you're the only one that can beat me at least" theory.

Anytime! More than happy to.

[Arcran]

Sorry, a quick question that I just noticed: Are we not paying TP Tutor Moves? I ask because Danster has a Tutor Move and an Ability that both would cost 2 TP, and Walrus has two Tutor Moves on a Pokemon, which also would cost 2 TP each.

I just ask since that's a houserule that would have effected how I built my team fairly substantially...

[The Walrus]

Tutor moves cost 2TP? Oops, I'd been assuming they were 1TP...

In that case, I'll remove Type Strategist from the Gastly and Ominous Wind from Beautifly.

[thedanster7000]

Oh I didn't notice that, I'll rectify that before the match.

We've scheduled the match for Saturday, and then Arcran will battle the loser for 3rd, then the final!

[thedanster7000]

Wally wins! Next up is Geoff vs Joseph, then the final!

[The Walrus]

It was a good game!

A few rules questions to settle with supernerd before our match:

1. Would you say taking a full action counts as using a standard action for the purposes of the Cursed status?
2. Pg. 229 of the rulebook says "A Trainer cannot Switch or Recall their Pokémon if their active Pokémon is out of range of their Poké Ball’s recall beam – 8 meters. During a League Battle, Trainers are generally considered to always be in Switching range." Are we going to go with the 'always in switching range' rule?
3. thedanster7000 and I agreed that you couldn't use restorative items like full heal in this format. Would you agree with this too?

[supernerd]

1: That depends on what actions are considered full actions. One presumes yes, since a full action is supposed to replace both the shift and standard actions of a Pokémon turn. However, given that it's PvP, unless you can find a rule that specifies that taking a full action either counts as or requires the expense of a standard (and shift) action, then a full action doesn't trigger cursed by keyword.
2: The format we're using is considered a league match.
3: The format we're using is considered a league match.

[The Walrus]

Page 227 does say ' Full Actions take both your Standard Action and Shift Action for a turn', so I guess that would meet your criteria. Just to clarify, for #2 you are agreeing with the 'always in switching range' rule and for #3 you are agreeing with the 'no restoratives' rule, right?

[supernerd]

Page 227 does say ' Full Actions take both your Standard Action and Shift Action for a turn', so I guess that would meet your criteria. Just to clarify, for #2 you are agreeing with the 'always in switching range' rule and for #3 you are agreeing with the 'no restoratives' rule, right?

That'll work. I figured that was the case, but since you were asking, I didn't know if it was actually gray area.

For #2 and #3, I'm saying that there's already rulings for both of those because we're using the league sanctioned method, which is treated as a League battle. So unless you want to make new trainers for a full contact battle, these questions have already been answered by the format. In short, yes. In medium, those were more reminders than questions and I don't particularly know why they needed to be asked.

[thedanster7000]

Right, sorry guys, but I'm going to busy for the next few days so I'm gonna run the final first! May the best trainer win!

[supernerd]

Well, I'm out of town until Sunday.

[The Walrus]

I'd be available for a match on Sunday. I guess the remaining two games will just occur in whatever order we get to them.

[The Walrus]

So, supernerd and I ended up getting into a bit of a rules dispute during the match, and we were hoping that Arcran could help us resolve it. My position is that you can use a ghost move on thin air to get a curse token from the haunting curse feature of Ghost Ace. This is what I did during the match with thedanster7000.

Pg. 244 in the combat chapter states "Attacks and Moves don’t have to target Pokémon or Trainers either", so I think it's valid to use a move without any ordinary target. The relevant wording from haunting curse on pg. 124 is "While this Feature is bound, the target gains a Curse Token each time they use a Ghost-Type Move or Ghost Step." It doesn't mention you have to hit anything with the move. You just have to use one.

Is it cheesy? Yes. Is it cheesier than constantly running away and using self-buffing moves on yourself? Arguably, no, and the rule that prevents that tactic is in the 'Optional Rules' section. If the devs didn't feel that was cheesy enough to ban in the main rules, arguably they wouldn't have intended for the haunting curse tactic to be banned either.

[Arcran]

So, supernerd and I ended up getting into a bit of a rules dispute during the match, and we were hoping that Arcran could help us resolve it. My position is that you can use a ghost move on thin air to get a curse token from the haunting curse feature of Ghost Ace. This is what I did during the match with thedanster7000.

Pg. 244 in the combat chapter states "Attacks and Moves don’t have to target Pokémon or Trainers either", so I think it's valid to use a move without any ordinary target. The relevant wording from haunting curse on pg. 124 is "While this Feature is bound, the target gains a Curse Token each time they use a Ghost-Type Move or Ghost Step." It doesn't mention you have to hit anything with the move. You just have to use one.

Is it cheesy? Yes. Is it cheesier than constantly running away and using self-buffing moves on yourself? Arguably, no, and the rule that prevents that tactic is in the 'Optional Rules' section. If the devs didn't feel that was cheesy enough to ban in the main rules, arguably they wouldn't have intended for the haunting curse tactic to be banned either.

RAW, you're fine. That is technically allowed, but, like you said, is pretty damn cheesy, and you should be ashamed of yourself. :smalltongue:

In any case, even if thin air wasn't a valid target, the ground is technically Blocking Terrain, which you can attack, so whatever way you cut it I'd say you can do this RAW.

[supernerd]

We would like a ruling for our match. The Walrus would like to use Lick on the air to trigger his Haunting Curse feature. Since it's an orders feature, and thus would apply to combat actions, I'm saying that such a use would either not be a thing or not trigger his feature, for a few reasons:
1: The only combat actions that discuss using moves are Making Attacks and Environmental Attack Effects.
- 1b: While the section on Environmental Attack Effects lists that moves are not required to target trainers or pokemon, it then goes on to list situations where a move is used to produce a significant effect by targeting an environmental feature. No substantial effect is mad by Lick targeting the air, as opposed to a Flamethrower burning a forest or lifting a hot air balloon, or breaking down doors or zapping electronics. There is no precedent for the type of action he wishes to take, i.e. using a move on nothing solely to trigger a feature.
- 1c: Environmental effects would be largely subject to GM discretion (and still require a roll of some kind to succeed). In a PvP format, this isn't really appropriate, especially in a League match. And to be clear, I still claim that licking the air does not produce any environmental effect.
2: The feature, while it doesn't specify that the move has to hit, the pokemon still has to use the move. Since the move usage does not qualify as an Attack, since it has no Trainer or Pokemon target, and it's qualification as an Environmental Attack Effect is dodgy at best, nonexistent at medium, and completely unacceptable at worst, on top of the questionable nature of using environmental effects in a PvP league match, should disqualify this use since the game assumes you'll be playing it properly.
3: This is a scummy tactic, poor form (at best) in any rpg, and should not be a thing if the game has any sort of competent design goals or structure.

Edit: Looks like The Walrus finished his before me :smalltongue: Still, I maintain that Making Attacks and Environmental Attack Effects cover different action types, and as such, the action he's taking is questionable at best in a PvP league match, ragardless of whether it qualifies as a move use. And while you're right, he could attack a blocking terrain square in an attempt to damage it, since we'd agreed that the platform was high enough to use tunneling speeds, that was not what he proposed, and I'm not going to let him do that since it wasn't his idea. If he's going to use a tactic like that, he should come ready to support it.

[Arcran]

My ruling is that RAW it's allowed. It says "You use a Ghost Type Move." I agree it shouldn't work like that, but RAW it's valid.

[The Walrus]

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't allow it in a normal campaign if I was the GM. I'd probably rewrite it to be something like this (to be clear, I'm not suggesting making this change for the current match):

Haunting Curse
[Orders] [Stratagem]
Prerequisites: Ghost Step, Type-Linked Skill at Adept
Bind 2 AP – Standard Action
Target: Your Pokémon
Effect: While this Feature is bound, whenever your Pokemon hits a Pokemon or Trainer with a Ghost-Type move, that Pokemon or Trainer gains one Curse Token. A Pokemon or Trainer may have up to four Curse Tokens at once. Any effect or action that could remove the Cursed status from a target can also be used to remove all Curse Tokens from a target.

Your Pokemon gains the ability to sense the location of all Pokemon or Trainers within 6 meters of it that have at least one Curse Token, and it can also sense the number of Curse Tokens that Pokemon or Trainer possesses.

As a Standard Action during their turn, or a Free action upon Fainting, your Pokemon can target a foe with at least one Curse Token within 6 meters, and spend any number of those Curse Tokens to apply conditions to that foe. Multiple conditions may be applied with the same use of this feature.

» 1 Curse Token: The target loses a Combat Stage of your choice.
» 2 Curse Tokens: The target becomes Cursed.
» 3 Curse Tokens: The target becomes Suppressed.
» 4 Curse Tokens: The target falls Asleep and gains Bad Sleep.

[The Walrus]

I won my match with supernerd, via forfeit. The cheese has triumphed.

[supernerd]

Kirk Forfeited after Cheddar had amassed 720 Curse counters.

[Arcran]

What, just cheesy running away the whole time? :smalleek:

[The Walrus]

Nope, just sitting in place. supernerd didn't want me to have the first attack, and so let me sit in the corner and build up as many curse tokens as I desired. After getting up to 5 tokens, we then agreed that I could have as many as I wanted. We didn't actually play out 720 rounds.

[supernerd]

He was out of range for my first Pokemon's only non-normal attack, and it wasn't worth the effort once I'd committed to waiting it out. Not when I was trying to break through that kind of strategy. Wouldn't be any fun or drama in it. Just rolling in hax until I died.

[The Walrus]

I think supernerd had a fair shot of winning this battle.

First, with both the active and passive effects of Inspired Training, he had a +4 to save checks against sleep, giving him a 45% chance of breaking out of sleep on a given turn.

Second, 29 hp is the maximally annoying amount of hp to have for a build relying on dealing ticks of damage through curse and bad sleep. Combined with the sitrus berry, it would have taken a total of 22 ticks of damage to take down Bunsen. Hermit's 47 hp isn't as bad, but it would still take 16 ticks to take down with the berry.

Third, the arena was too small to really be able to keep running away, and I might have taken some hits with thundershock eventually. Paralysis really would hamper the lick and run strategy if it triggered (although I could have used Expend Momentum to offset this to a degree).

Fourth, I would have had a lot of difficulty if supernerd had started with Hermit or switched out for Hermit before I could land a mean look. Rock blast's six range makes it harder to run away from, and a single lucky critical with that move could have taken Cheddar down with one shot.

Fifth, Swiss was weak to the primary attacks of both of supernerd's pokemon (she was really just my anti-Arcran pick, and in retrospect just getting a second Gastly would have been better), and couldn't have done much to help, especially against the more dangerous Hermit.