What's in between the Bladesinger and EK?

[jaappleton]

So the Bladesinger is a full caster with some martial prowess, though many argue (myself included) that really its just a spellcaster that can buff its defense and Concentration checks, and you shouldn't actually draw a sword.

The EK is barely a spellcaster, with very limited spell slots and even more limited spell selection, but is still a full Fighter with all those goodies.

I actually like the EK's ability to use spells and melee in conjunction with eachother, starting at lv7, but its limited spell slots and spell schools are too restrictive.

So what's in between them? Any proposed 'fix'? Any homebrew you've seen that you're particularly fond of?

[Vaz]

Warlock Hexblade?

As a 'fix' I'd allow a feat (possibly as a chain) that would allow an EK to Smite with their Bonded Weapon.

[rollingForInit]

In-between would be an arcane half-caster that doesn't exist :P

Aside from that, you could MC your way there. Like, EK 11/Wizard 9, maybe. A Warlock/Paladin.

[Spellbreaker26]

A proper homebrew would probably be Paladin-esque with divine abilities replaced with arcane ones. The EK is a 1/3 caster, the Bladesinger a fullcaster, you're looking for a 1/2 caster, like the Paladin, only arcane. I had a sort of homebrew like that kicking around, let me find it...

[djreynolds]

So the Bladesinger is a full caster with some martial prowess, though many argue (myself included) that really its just a spellcaster that can buff its defense and Concentration checks, and you shouldn't actually draw a sword.

The EK is barely a spellcaster, with very limited spell slots and even more limited spell selection, but is still a full Fighter with all those goodies.

I actually like the EK's ability to use spells and melee in conjunction with eachother, starting at lv7, but its limited spell slots and spell schools are too restrictive.

So what's in between them? Any proposed 'fix'? Any homebrew you've seen that you're particularly fond of?

For EK, plan on having a 13 in chr or int or wis and multiclass after 7th or 10th level or 11th level

I actually am now a huge fan of a sorcerer dip for EK, its pretty sweet.

Grabbing stuff like hex, magic weapon, hunter's mark, divine favor or elemental weapon is nice to have for those 3 attacks and the 1st 4 of those spells are 1st level.

Most fighters grab resilient wisdom, so if you now have a 13 in wisdom war cleric has some nice spells.

2 levels of paladin can solve lots of problems

and so does warlock for short rest spells

I'm not sure who pointed out sorcerer/eldritch knight to me, but its as good or even better than ek/wizard, nothing like twinning cantrips and then going greenflame blade/BB as a BA

[Specter]

EK 10/Abjurer 10. That's as good as an 'in-between' gets.

[jaappleton]

As far as single classes Gish, I have to think the Hexblade is pretty close.

Can anyone really explain why there's no Arcane Half Caster? I mean, it's really the only absolutely glaring hole, isn't it? Sure there's other classes we all want, but that's such an oversight.

Like head pounding against the desk oversight.

[mgshamster]

Monk of the Four Elements is in between.

Solid martial capabilities from base monk class. Spells up to 5th level. Depending on number of short rests, can cast more often than a paladin (requires 3 short rests to exceed paladin).

[Sirdar]

As far as single classes Gish, I have to think the Hexblade is pretty close.

Can anyone really explain why there's no Arcane Half Caster? I mean, it's really the only absolutely glaring hole, isn't it? Sure there's other classes we all want, but that's such an oversight.

Like head pounding against the desk oversight.

Agreed. If there is one thing I really miss in 5e - it is an arcane halfcaster.

[Joe the Rat]

EK/full-caster can cover the space fairly well, with a good amount of control by mixing your ratios. You could even EK/Bladesinger, though EK/Abjurer has less overlap.



Can anyone really explain why there's no Arcane Half Caster? I mean, it's really the only absolutely glaring hole, isn't it? Sure there's other classes we all want, but that's such an oversight.

Like head pounding against the desk oversight.Sort of like there not being a 1/3 divine caster? That's where they drew the lines. The mixed-methods base classes (Ranger, Paladin) have always* been partial divine. The closest to arcane demi-caster was Bard, and they got promoted. If Warlock was a tad more martial at base (or they wanted to make it so), they could have engineered that. Partial arcane was the missing niche, and they went martial subclass to cover it. Practically speaking, a 1/3 cleric or druid on a fighter would be hard to distinguish from a paladin or ranger. Divine/rogue is something of an anathema concept for D&D (remember the half-orc cleric/assassin?), with Divine Trickster a late addition to any edition.

After the above assignments, they would have needed to add a new class to get an arcane half, and I don't think they were in position to make the next Sorcerer/Warlord/New-class-for-this-edition.

* - ignoring that whole "druid and magic-user progressions" rangers had back in the day.

[clash]

Just refluff the paladin as an arcane caster. The paladin was built as the half and half Gish. What does it matter if it is divine it arcane

[DivisibleByZero]

Just refluff the paladin as an arcane caster. The paladin was built as the half and half Gish. What does it matter if it is divine it arcane

This.

But if that isn't your thing, your options are:
- Valor Bard - full casting and Extra Attack, but limited spell list
- Hexblade Warlock - full caster power, Extra Attack with Blade Pact, smite invocations
- Ranger with custom spell list - similar to Paladin, but sacrificing some "gish" for more versatility
- Multiclass EK or AT with at least 5-7 Wizard levels - Best of both worlds, but slower progression on higher level spells
- 4 Ele Monk - haters gonna hate, but it isn't nearly as bad as people claim, and it's actually pretty good of you houserule +WisMod to Ki pool
- Sorcadin - Best of Pally gishing with Sorc power, and less MAD than most multiclasses as you don't need anything other than your normal Pally stats
- Multiclass Pally/Warlock or Bard - see Sorcadin and make slight adjustments
- Cleric or Druid multiclass with whatever you want. Ranger/Druid in particular is pretty potent (and flavorful) but takes longer to start working well

edit:
Looks like those aren't your thing.

[Sirdar]

Just refluff the paladin as an arcane caster. The paladin was built as the half and half Gish. What does it matter if it is divine it arcane

For one thing I want something that feels different when there already is a Paladin in the party. Also, the divine smell of the Paladin is actually quite hard to wash off. The class features doesn't feel arcane at all.

[jaappleton]

Just refluff the paladin as an arcane caster. The paladin was built as the half and half Gish. What does it matter if it is divine it arcane

I think the Paladin, next to the Cleric, is one of the best designed classes in the game. It's stellar. Tons of options, you always feel like you're gaining something substantial as you level.

That said, I'd prefer not to reflavor it. Two reasons:

One, there's a Paladin in my group already. Don't want to step on his toes and double up on certain abilities.

Two, is I think an Arcane Half Caster would have something similar to War Magic where they would blend Weapon swinging with magical casting.

[Rogerdodger557]

As far as single classes Gish, I have to think the Hexblade is pretty close.

Can anyone really explain why there's no Arcane Half Caster? I mean, it's really the only absolutely glaring hole, isn't it? Sure there's other classes we all want, but that's such an oversight.

Like head pounding against the desk oversight.

I have no idea why. I'm hoping that before the official release WotC makes the Artificer an INT-based half caster as opposed to a third-caster.

[Millstone85]

Sort of like there not being a 1/3 divine caster? That's where they drew the lines. The mixed-methods base classes (Ranger, Paladin) have always* been partial divine.That would be my guess as well. 5e has a lessened focus on the arcane/divine split of spellcasting. WotC must not have felt the need to make every combo of 1/3 and half with arcane and divine. At least not right away in the PHB.

They may also have feared a repeat of 4e, where classes were made by trying to fill every box in the arcane/divine/martial/primal/psionic vs controller/defender/leader/striker table.


The closest to arcane demi-caster was Bard, and they got promoted.Which was a mistake, in my opinion. When I think bard, I think Jack of swords, spells and skills, master of none.


Divine/rogue is something of an anathema concept for D&D (remember the half-orc cleric/assassin?), with Divine Trickster a late addition to any edition.I actually liked the fluff of the avenger in 4e. Though it would now be somewhat redundant with Oath of Vengeance.

[jaappleton]

That would be my guess as well. 5e has a lessened focus on the arcane/divine split of spellcasting. WotC must not have felt the need to make every combo of 1/3 and half with arcane and divine. At least not right away in the PHB.

They may also have feared a repeat of 4e, where classes were made by trying to fill every box in the arcane/divine/martial/primal/psionic vs controller/defender/leader/striker table.

Which was a mistake, in my opinion. When I think bard, I think Jack of swords, spells and skills, master of none.

I actually liked the fluff of the avenger in 4e. Though it would now be somewhat redundant with Oath of Vengeance.

Also, a huge knock I have against the Paladin is its almost purely single-target focused (some Oaths mitigate this a bit). Also my knock on the Ranger is that it's almost purely AoE focused. They really annoyed me with those spell lists.

[mephnick]

Making the bard a full caster was stupid as hell in my opinion. Everyone loves it because it's the best class in the game pretty much but it's thematically a total mess.

[jaappleton]

That would be my guess as well. 5e has a lessened focus on the arcane/divine split of spellcasting. WotC must not have felt the need to make every combo of 1/3 and half with arcane and divine. At least not right away in the PHB.

They may also have feared a repeat of 4e, where classes were made by trying to fill every box in the arcane/divine/martial/primal/psionic vs controller/defender/leader/striker table.

Which was a mistake, in my opinion. When I think bard, I think Jack of swords, spells and skills, master of none.

I actually liked the fluff of the avenger in 4e. Though it would now be somewhat redundant with Oath of Vengeance.

I think a Half Caster with short rest Warlock style progression would be an excellent chassis for both a Swordmage and a proper Avenger. One path makes your spellcasting dependent on Int, the other Wis.

[AmmunRa]

I don't know if you're using UA, but if you are I'd recommend checking out the stone sorcerer. Gish's are my favorite playstyle, and I've been super happy with the stone sorc. The way I built it you don't get a ton of traditional sorcerer blasting ability(I went just str and con), but you're pretty resilient, have the smites that paladin's do, but more spell slots and a much better spell selection than either paladins or ek

[Puh Laden]

There's sort-of the artificer from UA. And then there are a lot of homebrew arcane half-casters. I know there are some on DMsGuild. There are also probably some here in the homebrew forum, and on other sites.

[DivisibleByZero]

I think a Half Caster with short rest Warlock style progression would be an excellent chassis for both a Swordmage and a proper Avenger. One path makes your spellcasting dependent on Int, the other Wis.

Following the Pact Magic progression as an half caster would be a nightmare.
People complain about the number of slots that Warlocks get as it is. Cut that in half and see how the playerbase reacts.

You'd have to do it like Mercer's Blood Mage does. It follows 1/3 caster progression, but because of short rest recovery it actually has the power of an half caster.

[jaappleton]

Following the Pact Magic progression as an half caster would be a nightmare.
People complain about the number of slots that Warlocks get as it is. Cut that in half and see how the playerbase reacts.

You'd have to do it like Mercer's Blood Mage does. It follows 1/3 caster progression, but because of short rest recovery it actually has the power of an half caster.

We discussed this before, where you revealed it's closer to half caster progression than 1/3rd out of necessity.

My vision would still have the same amount of spell slots, but the spell level would be decreased.

It's Blood Hunter, by the way :smalltongue:

[Mortis_Elrod]

Yeah i kinda agree that bard was promoted from master of none to master of all. That being said its cool as a fullcaster and i wouldn't want to take that away.


In between EK and bladesinger is probably a bigger spectrum than one class, in the direct middle would be our non existent Arcane int-based halfcaster super swordmage gish that we all want, and to the sides of it would be hexblade warlock and maybe valor/blade bard, with paladin and ranger to one side and cleric and e monk to the other.

Now i just got a weird line up all mixed up, but i think you get my point. Spectrum.

[Joe the Rat]

A tweaked pact magic (keep the slots, slow the progression), drop Arcane Secrets (halvsies cap at 5 anyways), and a d10 hit die... would be a good start. It also captures some of the fighter's short-rest traits.

Actually, there's a lot or Warlock that could be mined for this. But that's sort of my go-to for everything... Except Dragon Shamans, because Paladin is a better chassis.

[jaappleton]

Curiously, has anyone come across a homebrewed Half Caster they particularly liked?

[DivisibleByZero]

Curiously, has anyone come across a homebrewed Half Caster they particularly liked?

I have one myself, subclasses being Swordmage (tanky gish), Daggerspell Mage (sneaky striker gish), and Duskblade (general gish, somewhere between striker and tank).
I'd share it but I'm at work and it's at home.

[Spellbreaker26]

This is the homebrew class I was working sort of with

Arcane Sentinel

Saving Throws: Intelligence, Dexterity

Proficiencies: Two from: Arcana, Athletics, History, Religion, Persuasion and Perception, Light armour, Medium armour, Shields, all weapons

Abilities

Lv. 1: Detect Arcana, Focus Weave
Detect Arcana: Arcane Sentinels have advantage on Arcana checks and may cast “Detect Magic” for free for (intelligence bonus + 1 (minimum of 1)) times per long rest.

Focus Weave: The Arcane Sentinel may, as a bonus action, restore a level one spell slot to a friendly caster within 10 feet. This ability may only be used once per long rest, and at level five may restore up to a level 3 slot, and at level 10 up to a level 5 slot.

Lv 2: Fighting Style; Spellcasting; Arcane Smite
Fighting styles:
Armoured, Great Weapon Fighter, Archery

Spellcasting:
Works exactly the same as paladins, except with different spell choices based on the wizard list; intelligence as the spellcasting ability instead of charisma.

Arcane Smite: Divine Smite, but radiant damage is replaced with force damage; instead of undead and fiends, the damage increases if the enemy is an aberration or construct. It can also be applied to ranged weaponry

Lv 3: Mental Fortitude; Arcane Devotion
Mental fortitude: An Arcane Sentinel cannot be deceived easily; they add their proficiency bonus to any rolls against illusions.

Arcane Devotion:
Silver Eye: Abilities linked to illusion and divination. At this level, you gain darkvision for 30 feet if you don't already have it, increasing to 60 feet if you do and truesight for 5 feet.

Burned Hand: Abilities linked to evocation and abjuration. At this level, you gain the ability to cast the Absorb Elements spell for free times per your intelligence modifier (to a minimum of 1).

Black Skull: Abilities linked to Necromancy and conjuration. At this level, you gain advantage on any saving throw used to resist a natural power (not spell) used by an undead creature.


Lv 4: Ability Score

Lv 5: Extra attack

Lv 6: Aura of the Sharp Wit: Allies within 10 feet gain proficiency in charisma saving throws if they do not already have it.

Lv 7: Arcane Devotion Feature: Gain one cantrip from your Arcane Devotion schools. You may cast this cantrip as a bonus action as you attack.

Lv 8: Ability Score

Lv 9

Lv 10: Means and Method: Learn one Ritual spell of your choice that you can only cast as a ritual.

Lv 11: Improved Arcane Smite

Lv 12: Ability Score

Lv 13

Lv 14 Sigil Breaker: Every time you make a melee attack on a spell caster, they must take a concentration check. If they fail, they lose their least valuable remaining spell slot, if they still have any.

Lv 15: Arcane devotion feature:

Through the Fire Unburnt: Burning Hands Devotees gain advantage on saving throws against enemy evocation spells.

Ill Fate: Silver Eye Devotees roll 2d20s after every short or long rest. They may substitute these scores for an enemy roll before the enemy rolls if it is a d20 roll. This ability may only then be used after another short or long rest.

Black Chains: When a Black Eye devotee kills a living creature with Arcane Smite, the creature immediately becomes a zombie as per the Finger of Death spell.

Lv 16: Ability Score

Lv 17

Lv 18

Lv 19: Ability Score

Lv 20: Onslaught: Your studies have truly paid off, and you have the ability to tap into the raw power of magic itself. You learn and may cast one 9th level wizard spell. However, you must finish a seven days rest before casting that spell again.

Arcane Devotions:
Silver Eye:
When you pick this devotion, you gain the following domain spells:
1st: Identify, Silent Image
2nd: Mirror Image, See Invisibility
3rd: Hypnotic Pattern, Nondetection
4th: Arcane Eye, Locate Creature
5th: Dream, Scrying


Burned Hand
1st: Burning Hands; Shield
2nd: Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray
3rd: Counterspell, Fireball
4th: Stoneskin, Fire Shield
5th: Bigby’s Hand, Wall of Force

Black Skull
1st: Ray of Sickness; False Life
2nd: Cloud of Daggers; Ray of Enfeeblement
3rd: Animate Dead; Bestow Curse
4th: Conjure Minor Elementals; Blight
5th: Cloudkill; Conjure Elementals

[jaappleton]

Spellbreaker26,

You have two 'weak' saving throws. Str and Int. Each class one one 'strong' (Con, Wis, Dex) and one 'weak' (Str, Int, Cha).

[clash]

Arcane sentinal looks like it would work really good as a paladin oath. Oath of the arcane:

Level 3 some channel divinity ability.
Arcane like bonus spells

Level 7: Aura of sharp wit

Level 15: Sigil Breaker

Level 20: Arcane Sentinal - some ability that lasts for a minute or an hour.

[Spiritchaser]

As far as single classes Gish, I have to think the Hexblade is pretty close.

Can anyone really explain why there's no Arcane Half Caster? I mean, it's really the only absolutely glaring hole, isn't it? Sure there's other classes we all want, but that's such an oversight.

Like head pounding against the desk oversight.

The best explanation I could give is that it's hard to balance.

I've tried to homebrew this a number of ways, but They all come out rather broken, or else obviously inferior to the Paladin.

Balancing against the paladin, and, to my mind necessarily against the sorcadin, means you're already high up on the power curve. Its not obvious what synergy an arcane half caster could have with wizard that would compete with what the other charisma casters can bring to paladin.

I'm not saying this isn't worth doing, and I'm sure it is possible, but the things I've come up with seem either OP or anemic.

[Spellbreaker26]

Spellbreaker26,

You have two 'weak' saving throws. Str and Int. Each class one one 'strong' (Con, Wis, Dex) and one 'weak' (Str, Int, Cha).

Nice catch, I've changed it.

[Puh Laden]

The best explanation I could give is that it's hard to balance.

I've tried to homebrew this a number of ways, but They all come out rather broken, or else obviously inferior to the Paladin.

Balancing against the paladin, and, to my mind necessarily against the sorcadin, means you're already high up on the power curve. Its not obvious what synergy an arcane half caster could have with wizard that would compete with what the other charisma casters can bring to paladin.

I'm not saying this isn't worth doing, and I'm sure it is possible, but the things I've come up with seem either OP or anemic.

I know what you mean. I've also tried it myself, and it's hard to balance it against both paladin and eldritch knight -- making sure that it doesn't step on either's toes -- and have it fill its own niche.

[Tanarii]

Valour Bard.

Multiclassing EK/Wizard, although that's a pain because the 'optimal' way is to do EK to 5-7, then Wizard. Going 1 Fighter then 1 Wizard means you are putting off your level 5 abilities in both classes until 10.

Otoh if you're looking to simulate a half caster on the casting side, you'd expect 2nd spells at level 5, 3rd at 9th, 4th at 13th, and 5th at 17. So you could go EK 3 --> Wizard 2 --> EK 6 --> Wizard 3 --> EK 9 --> Wizard 4 --> EK 12 --> Wizard 5. It'd push back Extra Attack to 7 and War Magic to 10th, but you'd progress in caster exactly as a Paladin/Ranger.

Edit: talking about spell slots here. The downside to this is you don't actually get access to the higher levels spells.

[Spiritchaser]

The most recent role I tried going with was melee/magical control

I didn't want to end up with an arcane paladin, so, I presumed no smites, instead allowing an attack to channel pbaoe debuffs and controls. These could be a badly overpowered team contribution, so great care would be needed.

I presumed that there would be significant concern with con saves, so int/con vs int wis or int dex

I liked the save resistances of the paladin, but didn't want a duplicate. I instead allowed int bonus to apply to mental and con saves (self only). This is strictly weaker than paladin, so i said + proficiency on dispel and counterspell

No holy symbol on shield, and a weapon is presumed, so the melee weapon may serve as the arcane focus.

Other than that? Meh, maybe someday it'll be balanced

[miburo]

Clearly not having an arcane halfcaster is a pain point among players, because it pops up on the forums every month or so :smallamused:

I built a homebrew arcane halfcaster class (the Spellsword) which you can find in my sig below. Similar to what people described, I focused on a War Magic equivalent and the SCAG cantrips rather than the extra attack route. There's archetypes for a defensive swordmage type (Shielding) and a more offensive duskblade type (Channeling). If it's of interest give it a look.

If a full base class is too much homebrew to take in at once, awhile ago on the old WotC forums some of us brainstormed a Swordmage archetype for the Paladin to add more arcane spells and gishy elements. I think it's fairly well balanced for an archetype, if not all that creative. This was pre-SCAG cantrips but honestly it doesn't need it with the excellent Paladin chassis - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fBoC8bVRb_0syWHZORwWeagijKOX5bljMza8rbziBQI

[jaappleton]

Clearly not having an arcane halfcaster is a pain point among players, because it pops up on the forums every month or so :smallamused:

I built a homebrew arcane halfcaster class (the Spellsword) which you can find in my sig below. Similar to what people described, I focused on a War Magic equivalent and the SCAG cantrips rather than the extra attack route. There's archetypes for a defensive swordmage type (Shielding) and a more offensive duskblade type (Channeling). If it's of interest give it a look.

If a full base class is too much homebrew to take in at once, awhile ago on the old WotC forums some of us brainstormed a Swordmage archetype for the Paladin to add more arcane spells and gishy elements. I think it's fairly well balanced for an archetype, if not all that creative. This was pre-SCAG cantrips but honestly it doesn't need it with the excellent Paladin chassis - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fBoC8bVRb_0syWHZORwWeagijKOX5bljMza8rbziBQI

I read your homebrew when I was looking for a half caster!

Sincerely, its immensely well done. It's damn good, I mean that. You didn't focus solely on combat like so many others do (which leads to them being OP), you also provided great utility aspects to it. It's obvious from looking at it that you played a bit of 4E. Adroit Explorer, Intelligent Blademaster... I recognize those. :smallcool:

It's pretty much the closest thing I've found to what I'm looking for. My only gripe is that Spellsword Tactics is a bit strong, with how frequently it can occur.

[miburo]

I read your homebrew when I was looking for a half caster!

Sincerely, its immensely well done. It's damn good, I mean that. You didn't focus solely on combat like so many others do (which leads to them being OP), you also provided great utility aspects to it. It's obvious from looking at it that you played a bit of 4E. Adroit Explorer, Intelligent Blademaster... I recognize those. :smallcool:

It's pretty much the closest thing I've found to what I'm looking for. My only gripe is that Spellsword Tactics is a bit strong, with how frequently it can occur.

Thank you, that means a lot to me! :smallbiggrin:

I had hoped Spellsword Tactics was on level with the Eldritch Knight ability (Eldritch Strike). It only applies before the beginning of your next turn (as opposed to end of next turn for the EK ability), and importantly Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade do NOT benefit from the advantage on spell attack rolls (as they use a standard melee weapon attack roll). That said if it still seems too powerful, an easy fix is to limit frequency of usage (e.g. once per short rest, or # = Int modifier per long rest).

[JackPhoenix]

Curiously, has anyone come across a homebrewed Half Caster they particularly liked?

This (http://www.eberron5e.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Class-Artificer-Full-Class-v3.4.pdf) Artificer. Much better than the WotC's version that came later, IMO

[Zalabim]

Ranger seriously has half-caster progression and medium armor proficiency lands between the two as well. However, they don't use their spells in a very arcane way. There isn't the same selection of elemental attacks, illusions/divinations, teleportation, and protection magic that you see on the wizard or even paladin list.

[Sicarius Victis]

This (http://www.eberron5e.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Class-Artificer-Full-Class-v3.4.pdf) Artificer. Much better than the WotC's version that came later, IMO

Maybe I'm just confused, or something, but that doesn't appear to be a half-caster that it links to.

[JackPhoenix]

Maybe I'm just confused, or something, but that doesn't appear to be a half-caster that it links to.

It USED to be half-caster... huh. It's been a while, I remember the old version. Nevermind.

[Hypersmith]

I have no idea why. I'm hoping that before the official release WotC makes the Artificer an INT-based half caster as opposed to a third-caster.

One can only hope