Did I accidently cheat?

[nickl_2000]

So, here's the situation.

Our group was is the basement of a large house where NPCs where effectively making gunpowder. There room is still explosive due to leftover powder in he air. NPC is in the room and starts to run to the other stairway away from us.

I cast phantasmal force to create an illusion of fire at the top of the stairs and keep him in the room. We try and get him to talk, but he sees it, and freaks out. Eventually he casts invisiblitt, and our low level party swears at fighting a wizard.

My first round after that, I use my action to make the fire at the top of the stair spread into the room and explode the powder. He yells ouch from the psychic damage and the cleric drop a maximized shatter on him. Dead wizard...


Was I allowed to make the phantasmal force move and do something new? Or did I accidentally cheat? I have since dropped that spell for my bard, since I suck with illusions for something I personally can use more effectively

[Lombra]

The illusion targets the NPC. The illusion doesn't actually move, the target simply preceives it wherever you want. You can make creatures that move, fire spreading is legitimate.

Although with all the illusions, you should base yourself mostly on your DM, if he allows it, it's ok and it's not "cheating".

[Millstone85]

I think phantasms can move, provided they look like something that would.

But I don't think using your action to control a phantasm is something you can do.

[Unoriginal]

You can't use Phantasmal Force to make the powder explode, it causes psychic damage to the one who sees the illusion, but not to the environment.


It's not cheating, but it seems you and your DM didn't read the spell correctly, or decided to houserule it.

[nickl_2000]

So fire spreading legal. Me controlling when the fire spreads in the room, probably illegal :)

Thanks

[nickl_2000]

You can't use Phantasmal Force to make the powder explode, it causes psychic damage to the one who sees the illusion, but not to the environment.


It's not cheating, but it seems you and your DM didn't read the spell correctly, or decided to houserule it.

The powder didn't actually explode The fire spread into the room where the powder was, which in the NPCs mind would cause it to explode causing him psychic damage

[Vaz]

So fire spreading legal. Me controlling when the fire spreads in the room, probably illegal :)

Thanks


On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature. or other visible phenomenon of your choice that is no larger than a 10-foot cube and that is perceivable only to the target for the duration. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.

The phantasm includes sound, temperature. and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature.

You can't make the first "spread", but you move the 10ft cube it affects. You could move it over the gunpowder barrels, and make it look like the gunpowder exploded, taking 1d6/round Psychic Damage while affected by the spell, perhaps rationalising the "still there" barrels as ones which avoided the initial explosion, but still possible to go up, as well as rationalising the fact he was still on his feet and alive as a miracle, perhaps the deflection of the blast.

However, it wouldn't actually make the gunpowder explode. They wouldn't take damage from the explosion (50/50 fire/bludgeoning?), because nothing really happened. Your DM having the opponent utter an "ouch" to allow him to be pinpointed was rather kind as well.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

So fire spreading legal. Me controlling when the fire spreads in the room, probably illegal :)

Thanks

Just to be clear, you can make anything you want with Phantasmal Force (that can fit into a 10 foot cube). But whatever you do, it's all in the victim's head, and doesn't affect the world outside of that. So an image of fire spreading and exploding the powder is fine (as long as it fits in a 10 foot cube), but it's not going to do anything to the actual fire or powder.

[nickl_2000]

Just to be clear, you can make anything you want with Phantasmal Force (that can fit into a 10 foot cube). But whatever you do, it's all in the victim's head, and doesn't affect the world outside of that. So an image of fire spreading and exploding the powder is fine (as long as it fits in a 10 foot cube), but it's not going to do anything to the actual fire or powder.

Yes, I may not have been clear with this. When I say fire and explosions, what I mean is imaginary fire and imaginary explosions

[nickl_2000]

SNIP
Your DM having the opponent utter an "ouch" to allow him to be pinpointed was rather kind as well.

It was, I think he was trying to help us find the guy for plot purposes and didn't expect the cleric to turn him into a pile of broken bones and goo with shatter. The poor DM had to quickly improvise a way for us to get the plot information to move forward after that.

[Vaz]

For future reference, every time he took damage, the wizard should have taken a Concentration check to maintain the Invisibility (DC10, or DC(half damage taken), whichever is higher).

The Cleric Shattering him is the cleric's fault, and if you need information, the Cleric needs to learn that killing the person with information is not the correct way to go about it. However, if you've now proceeded to gain 3rd level spells, Revivify and Speak with Dead both provide useful ways to get around the wrinkle of accidental criticals

[nickl_2000]

For future reference, every time he took damage, the wizard should have taken a Concentration check to maintain the Invisibility (DC10, or DC(half damage taken), whichever is higher).

The Cleric Shattering him is the cleric's fault, and if you need information, the Cleric needs to learn that killing the person with information is not the correct way to go about it. However, if you've now proceeded to gain 3rd level spells, Revivify and Speak with Dead both provide useful ways to get around the wrinkle of accidental criticals

He succeeded on the concentration check :)

as for the cleric... well, it was an IC discussion afterwards about how we needed him alive.

[Millstone85]

He succeeded on the concentration check :)Do you also know if the cleric's spell damaged the NPC enough to meet instant death conditions (brought to 0 hit points, remaining damage ≥ hit point maximum, all in one go)?

Maybe the nice DM didn't have to turn the NPC into a pile of broken bones and goo, just into a dying patient for the cleric to stabilize and heal.

[nickl_2000]

Do you also know if the cleric's spell damaged the NPC enough to meet instant death conditions (brought to 0 hit points, remaining damage ≥ hit point maximum, all in one go)?

Maybe the nice DM didn't have to turn the NPC into a pile of broken bones and goo, just into a dying patient for the cleric to stabilize and heal.

To be honest, I don't know. There is no complaint about the DM. He made it so we got the information we needed in a different way (found it hidden in a false slot in the leg of a chair when I rolled a natural 20 while searching a room).

Your method would have worked as well though

[Chugger]

Illusion abuse "broke" (or threatened to break) the game long before you were (probably) born - not really, but we all heard of weak DMs who allowed too much or let a player convince them of being able to do more than they should have. Too powerful illusions reduce challenge and hurt gameplay, so DMs have historically responded to illusions with a heavy hand - not all - and balance is the key. You did fine, I think. Your DM allowed it, so you certainly didn't "cheat."

Get a pdf of the old AD&D phb and look at the illusionist class if you want to see a first class --> mess <--. :smallbiggrin:

In this case an illusion was a smart thing to cast. Shatter may not have been. Your DM was kind. Shatter could easily cause enough friction to make a spark, booming you all. Good thing your DM didn't think of that (and that's not necessarily going to happen - but I could see a DM ruling that way). You used illusion fine.

[SharkForce]

The illusion targets the NPC. The illusion doesn't actually move, the target simply preceives it wherever you want. You can make creatures that move, fire spreading is legitimate.

Although with all the illusions, you should base yourself mostly on your DM, if he allows it, it's ok and it's not "cheating".

actually, nothing says the illusion can move. in contrast to other illusion spells that tell you when something can move (like silent image and major image), phantasmal force just allows you to make an illusion, and gives you no actual control over the illusion after the fact. you can't make the fire spread, unless that was set up when you first cast the spell (and it would, of course, be limited to a 10 foot cube as the total area it spreads to). you can't even make a creature move, really, or at least, not beyond the 10 foot cube that is the limit of where the phantasm can be.

[Lombra]

actually, nothing says the illusion can move. in contrast to other illusion spells that tell you when something can move (like silent image and major image), phantasmal force just allows you to make an illusion, and gives you no actual control over the illusion after the fact. you can't make the fire spread, unless that was set up when you first cast the spell (and it would, of course, be limited to a 10 foot cube as the total area it spreads to). you can't even make a creature move, really, or at least, not beyond the 10 foot cube that is the limit of where the phantasm can be.

That's not RAW. The target of the spell is not a spot, but a creature. The illusion has size limits, but it doesn't have to stay in one place. It can be the illusion of an ogre smashing someone and that ogre will follow the target, or at least, that's what the target perceives. It would be a very bad spell if it could simply be avoided by moving 10 feet in one direction.

[Vaz]

SharkForce has a funny concept of RAW.

[smcmike]

This sounds like a very good job by both the player and the DM.

[SharkForce]

That's not RAW. The target of the spell is not a spot, but a creature. The illusion has size limits, but it doesn't have to stay in one place. It can be the illusion of an ogre smashing someone and that ogre will follow the target, or at least, that's what the target perceives. It would be a very bad spell if it could simply be avoided by moving 10 feet in one direction.

it would be an incredibly garbage spell if all it did was let you make a fake monster that deals 1d6 damage per round (and can be ignored specifically because it only deals 1d6 damage per round), no matter how mobile that monster is. that is like witchbolt levels of suck. except witchbolt might actually probably better, which is impressive because witchbolt is actually frequently held up as an example of a terrible spell that just keeps getting worse the more you try to make it not suck.

you would be better off keeping the spell slot for almost anything else.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

it would be an incredibly garbage spell if all it did was let you make a fake monster that deals 1d6 damage per round

Yes, we are fortunate that that is just an example of one thing the spell is capable of.

[SharkForce]

Yes, we are fortunate that that is just an example of one thing the spell is capable of.

when combined with the ruling that you can just walk through any obstacle created, it pretty much is the one thing the spell is capable of. you can apparently just walk right out of chains and rationalize that they were too weak to hold you. why wouldn't you just as easily walk through the bag, and rationalize that it wasn't stuck on very well?

so we're left with a spell that can do 1d6 damage per round and costs concentration. not exactly awe-inspiring.