How busted would this be..?

[Buufreak]

In short, a 1 level dip that gives an extra attack on a full attack, which stacks with haste and other speed effects.

In length, I'm back at it, trying to do the mtg conversions, and today I am working on Amonkhet, the Egyptian-like plane. The Goddess of Zeal, Hazoret, according to the 5e Planeshift series has a granted effect at first level of "From 1st level, Hazoret delivers bolts of inspiration to you while you are engaged in battle. When you use the Attack action, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest." I am roughly translating this as extra attack on full attacks, stacking with haste, usable (wis mod)/day.

Thoughts? I obviously see this as a 1 dip so mundanes can have some nice things, which I am comfortable with at my own table (even if it means I end up with whirling barb 1/zeal cleric 1/X characters with haste weapons).

I'm also working on Bontu, Goddess of Ambition, but she needs a bit of thought. I'll post again with that if people are interested (though far more likely I will be needing more assistance!)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Haste, unlike most ways to get a bonus attack (Whirling Frenzy, Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting), doesn't impose a -2 attack penalty on all attacks made in the round. Haste requires a standard action to activate; the others take less.


So, relevant questions.
1) Activation action: none, free, immediate, swift, standard action? Probably either no action or swift/immediate, but you could do a standard action activation for a five-round effect. Doesn't suit the fluff as well, it's more a "battle trance" pre-battle ritual, but you could.
2) Penalty or no penalty? Since there's a daily limit, I'd say no penalty, similar to Whirling Frenzy (which, though it carries a penalty, also boosts strength to compensate, so there's no net loss).
3) Extra attack on full attack only, or on any attack? The latter is really cool when combined with no/free/immediate action activation, because it works on AoOs as well. I think a wis mod/day free action bonus attack, usable whenever you attack, is pretty cool. Snap Kick for clerics, basically.

[Buufreak]

Haste, unlike most ways to get a bonus attack (Whirling Frenzy, Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting), doesn't impose a -2 attack penalty on all attacks made in the round. Haste requires a standard action to activate; the others take less.


So, relevant questions.
1) Activation action: none, free, immediate, swift, standard action? Probably either no action or swift/immediate, but you could do a standard action activation for a five-round effect. Doesn't suit the fluff as well, it's more a "battle trance" pre-battle ritual, but you could.
2) Penalty or no penalty? Since there's a daily limit, I'd say no penalty, similar to Whirling Frenzy (which, though it carries a penalty, also boosts strength to compensate, so there's no net loss).
3) Extra attack on full attack only, or on any attack? The latter is really cool when combined with no/free/immediate action activation, because it works on AoOs as well. I think a wis mod/day free action bonus attack, usable whenever you attack, is pretty cool. Snap Kick for clerics, basically.

Awesome questions! These are usually the parts I don't think about immediately, and why I'm glad you find Gianteers exist.

1) Free or swift. I want to go with free, because if it stays on full attacks only, you might need that to dance around 5 ft, or else end up with a wasted daily use because all the things died and you have 3 swings to go. Also, it is less ritual, more a godly hand wave. For reference, Amonkhet gods walk among their people, so it is quite literally an on the spot, instantaneous effect, granted directly from a god standing at no point further than a mile away. Its a bigish plane, but only a very small and well maintained area is habitable.
2) I'm feeling no penalty. Even it being the autopilot of 5e backported to 3, I'm fine with no pos or neg, just an extra free swing at max BAB.
3) It is described as fiery zealousness and divine righteousness. Its almost like a divine rage, really, and the storyline scene that shows it off is all out battle fury with nonstop attacks. It feels right on a full attack. Also, the AoO would be better suited for Oketra, Goddess of Solidarity (not to be confused with solitude). She preaches teamwork, and I roughly translated from the same source "if ally hits in range target, take an AoO at same target."

But yea, great feedback. You guys always help my mind focus. I do so much better in a QnA format than a vomiting of info one.

[Florian]

Thoughts?

Take a look at PF Vital Strike and then look at the Vexing Daredevil archetype for the Mesmerist class. That should give you a clue how it could look like when you can gain an extra attack on a standard attack, which is actually more powerful than just expanding your full attack.

[Buufreak]

Take a look at PF Vital Strike and then look at the Vexing Daredevil archetype for the Mesmerist class. That should give you a clue how it could look like when you can gain an extra attack on a standard attack, which is actually more powerful than just expanding your full attack.

Well, according to the on page editor note for Vital Strike, that wouldn't come up, as VS can only be done as a standard action. I'm not really seeing anything world shattering from Vexing Daredevil, would you care to clarify any?

[Gildedragon]

It sounds like a martial maneuver: do two attacks as one... It becomes usable maybe about once or twice per encounter?

[Florian]

Well, according to the on page editor note for Vital Strike, that wouldn't come up, as VS can only be done as a standard action. I'm not really seeing anything world shattering from Vexing Daredevil, would you care to clarify any?

Surprise Strike. Normally, your routine is Feint (move action), then Strike (standard action), followed by a bonus attack triggered by Surprise Strike. Now you´re just two feats away from turning Feint into a free action and Vital Strike works on both, your regular Strike and the bonus strike from Surprise Strike. Assuming a Greatsword, that´s good an dependable 8d6 in a standard action at 8th level and we talk about negligible feat investment here.

[DeTess]

This shouldn't be too broken, though maybe limit this so that characters need to be a certain minimum level to take it? Something similar can already be done by taking a dip in either Swordsage or Warblade as the 17th level (the dancing mongoose boost gives 1 extra attack per weapon (maximum 2) as a swift action). This 1 feature would definitely be fine at a lower level, though I probably wouldn't make it accessible before ecl 5.

[Buufreak]

This shouldn't be too broken, though maybe limit this so that characters need to be a certain minimum level to take it? Something similar can already be done by taking a dip in either Swordsage or Warblade as the 17th level (the dancing mongoose boost gives 1 extra attack per weapon (maximum 2) as a swift action). This 1 feature would definitely be fine at a lower level, though I probably wouldn't make it accessible before ecl 5.

Okay, but how would I limit it like that as a domain granted power, which are usually acquired 1st cleric level.

[DeTess]

Okay, but how would I limit it like that as a domain granted power, which are usually acquired 1st cleric level.

If you place tight limits on its use (wisdom modifier, as you suggested, with maybe an upper limit as in 3.5 the wisdom mod can go way past +5, unlike 5.0, which you took this idea from, iirc), it will probably be fine at first level if you don't allow a 15-minute adventuring day. The reason I mentioned limiting it till after ecl5 was to try to prevent casters with this dip being able to out-shine fighters in combat even in the lower levels.

[Buufreak]

If you place tight limits on its use (wisdom modifier, as you suggested, with maybe an upper limit as in 3.5 the wisdom mod can go way past +5, unlike 5.0, which you took this idea from, iirc), it will probably be fine at first level if you don't allow a 15-minute adventuring day. The reason I mentioned limiting it till after ecl5 was to try to prevent casters with this dip being able to out-shine fighters in combat even in the lower levels.

See, that's interesting that you see it as a low level caster option issue. I more looked at the high end barb swinging 18/18/18/18/13/8/3, being 4 attacks all at full bab, before strength or anything else added.

[Waker]

See, that's interesting that you see it as a low level caster option issue. I more looked at the high end barb swinging 18/18/18/18/13/8/3, being 4 attacks all at full bab, before strength or anything else added.

Am I understanding that you would allow a character to activate this ability multiple times in the same round? Wouldn't that just allow Uberchargers to rocket tag even better?

[Buufreak]

Am I understanding that you would allow a character to activate this ability multiple times in the same round? Wouldn't that just allow Uberchargers to rocket tag even better?

Negative. The 4 attacks at full minus 2 comes from whirling frenzy, haste, this "zeal" effect, and the usual first attack of a full attack routine. Given, that would also get more point loss due to non full bab classes, but that's here or there.

[Deeds]

In short, a 1 level dip that gives an extra attack on a full attack, which stacks with haste and other speed effects.

If I were at your table I'd feel like I'd almost be forced to take a level dip to gain the extra attack or my build would be subpar to other players. Sacrificing a rogue level and losing some sneak attack dice is ok since I'm basically doubling my potential damage output. That being said, I wouldn't complain.

You could put it on an item. I'd suggest calling it "cartouche of zeal" but lore wise anyone worthy of the cartouche is gonna be in the afterlife shortly.

[Waker]

Negative. The 4 attacks at full minus 2 comes from whirling frenzy, haste, this "zeal" effect, and the usual first attack of a full attack routine. Given, that would also get more point loss due to non full bab classes, but that's here or there.

I realized it after where the other attacks likely came from. Even so, since it is a free action to activate the power and not a swift, you may want to include a note to limit usage to once per round.

[Buufreak]

If I were at your table I'd feel like I'd almost be forced to take a level dip to gain the extra attack or my build would be subpar to other players. Sacrificing a rogue level and losing some sneak attack dice is ok since I'm basically doubling my potential damage output. That being said, I wouldn't complain.

You could put it on an item. I'd suggest calling it "cartouche of zeal" but lore wise anyone worthy of the cartouche is gonna be in the afterlife shortly.

Oh man, you haven't seen the latest, have you..?

But that is a good idea to add, the cartouche. But they are rewarded to victors of each trial, this is looking for a good boon for taking the zeal domain of hazoret. Though that does raise the question, what spells by level would the domain grant?

[Deeds]

I'm waiting on the final Hour of Devastation chapter to be released today.

For a Zeal domain, Google says some synonyms for zeal are passion, enthusiasm, and devotion. Hazoret is a spear wielding, fire slingin', god of zeal!

You could throw out domain spells like Produce Flame, Scorching Ray, Haste, Fireball, Divine Power, and Meteor Storm. I'd want a cremation/holocaust spell that Hazoret uses versus *spoiler.*

Leave Snake's Swiftness to Rhonas ;)