Finding a resurrection loophole

[Demonique]

Hello peeps.
I have a fairly high-level Warforged Juggernaut, who almost croaked last session.

I am looking if there is a legal way to be able to resurrect it, given that juggernauts are immune to healing and necromancy effects.
Any ideas will be welcome.

-Demi-

[SangoProduction]

If it's loopholes you are looking for, you can drop your immunities willingly. If you mean that they can't be affected by healing, then that's another thing that would involve changing the descriptor of the spell.

EDIT: yeah. It's just immunity, which, surprisingly enough, and likely completely counter to what was intended, means that you can just let yourself be affected by it.

[Demonique]

Not sure i can willingly drop my immunities if i'm dead...
But if that is all there is to it, then an immunity to healing is hardly a restriction.

[SangoProduction]

Yeah, most DMs won't let it fly, since it flies in the face of the incredibly obvious intention, but the book gives an example of an immunity being suppressed when "Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw."

I mean, if you have a nonmagical effect of the healing subschool (somehow...subschool kinda implies it's a part of a magical school), then you might have the problem with the rules not covering it, as


Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.

But that's about the only problem I can see, strictly rules wise.

EDIT: OK. There might be one more problem: "suppress." This implies that you have to actively suppress it, and you can't do that while dead...well, your body can't. It retains your class features while not alive?

[Gildedragon]

They're not immune to [Healing] subschool effects; they only gain 1/2 hitpoints from those spells. So Revivify, Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Rez, and the like all restore a warforged to life... at half hitpoints as usual

Oh damn just saw it was a juggernaut.
Gimme 10

[Demonique]

Yeah, the whole thing gets kinda complicated.
I was looking for a non-'healing', non-'necromancy' way of doing it. Are psionics covered by magic schools?.

Just to stir the mud a little more, my juggernaut will finish it's 'acolyte of the skin' progression in a few levels, and become an Outsider (still with the 'living construct' subtype, strangely) which specifically states they can be resurrected, unlike other outsiders. Can you trump one prestige class effect with a different, higher-level prestige class effect?

-Demi-

[Gildedragon]

It can be argued that, being dead, the immunities are lost

(Limited) Wish / Miracle probably work too
Though those might be too high level

Shadowcraft Mage "Shadow Conjuration" Revivify? It'd be an Illusion spell, not a Conjuration... not sure if the healing would work for Shadowing though

Humanoid Essence line of spells on the remains would probably also work

[SangoProduction]

Yeah, the whole thing gets kinda complicated.
I was looking for a non-'healing', non-'necromancy' way of doing it. Are psionics covered by magic schools?.

Just to stir the mud a little more, my juggernaut will finish it's 'acolyte of the skin' progression in a few levels, and become an Outsider (still with the 'living construct' subtype, strangely) which specifically states they can be resurrected, unlike other outsiders. Can you trump one prestige class effect with a different, higher-level prestige class effect?

-Demi-

The two effects don't care about each other. You can be resurrected but (assuming your body keeps your class abilities, and thus immunity), it will have to not come from a healing subschool.

Technically, psionics are disciplines, so if they have a revival, even regarding (healing) subdisciplines, they are not specifically from the subschool, so that's a possibility. No idea how transparency works with that.

[Demonique]

Just read that psionic revivify is a 'transmutation' effect. Is this what i want to hear?

-Demi-

[SangoProduction]

Just read that psionic revivify is a 'transmutation' effect. Is this what i want to hear?

-Demi-

Still (Healing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#healing)), even if it is Psychometabolism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psychometabolism).

And Psychometabolism counts as the Transmutation school, which implies that Healing would be a subschool.

[ShurikVch]

Use some Conjuration (Calling) to call your petitioner; restore the memories with the Thought Bottle

[fredg742]

There is a warforged artifact that will capture your "soul" upon death that will allow it to be transferred to another warforged body...or maybe your own after it has been sufficiently repaired. I don't recall which book, but it is in the Eberron books.

[Fouredged Sword]

Still (Healing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#healing)), even if it is Psychometabolism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psychometabolism).

And Psychometabolism counts as the Transmutation school, which implies that Healing would be a subschool.

This is your best bet. Psionics don't care so much about WHAT they are healing and don't call on extra-planer powers to fix a booboo. Fluff wise it makes sense that they would be able to fix a warforged just as easily as a human or a wagon.

[Demonique]

There is a warforged artifact that will capture your "soul" upon death that will allow it to be transferred to another warforged body...or maybe your own after it has been sufficiently repaired. I don't recall which book, but it is in the Eberron books.

I'm not sure about this, but I was considering adding 'trap the soul' to a Final Messenger (assuming the messenger would survive what the warforged body didn't) and constructing a duplicate.

[Vaern]

Ask the DM about homebrewing a spell.
There are "Repair X Damage" spells in the Spell Compendium available to sorcerers and wizards, all Transmutation spells that exist specifically to heal constructs that are unaffected by divine healing. Each of them is functionally identical to a "Cure X Wounds" of the same level from a cleric to a living creature.
There are also the spells Revive Outsider and Revive Undead, both 6th level spells with a material component cost of 5,000. Thus, it would be perfectly reasonable to make a transmutation spell of the same level with the same cost for reanimating a destroyed construct.

*Edit*

There is a warforged artifact that will capture your "soul" upon death that will allow it to be transferred to another warforged body...or maybe your own after it has been sufficiently repaired. I don't recall which book, but it is in the Eberron books.
This, combined with the Repair spells, sounds like a good combination to bet on if homebrewing is out of the question. In addition, I think "Make Whole" may have been rewritten in one book to act as Heal (10 HP per caster level) on a construct creature, rather than simply repairing an object.

[Gildedragon]

Humanoid Essence spell is the tidiest way. It removes the invulnerability to Healing Effects, and while that's active: raise dead

Loophole: the healing immunity days they are immune to Healing spells that restore HP. Rez doesn't restore HP. It sets HP to a set value (HD per level, Max HP... Etc). One can then argue that they are not impervious to Rezzing

[Caelestion]

Loophole: the healing immunity days they are immune to Healing spells that restore HP. Rez doesn't restore HP. It sets HP to a set value (HD per level, Max HP... Etc). One can then argue that they are not impervious to Rezzing

If you want to pretend that regaining hp is not the same as restoring hp, then sure. I think most GMs would laugh at you if you tried that though.

[Vaern]

If you want to pretend that regaining hp is not the same as restoring hp, then sure. I think most GMs would laugh at you if you tried that though.
Actually, there is an argument to be made regarding the way a spell affects your health.
You can repair the warforged's body to full hit points while it's still "dead". Then a resurrection spell could be used to reattach the soul to the body.
If the spell would set its HP to full upon resurrection, its HP would not be affected because the body that the soul is returning to is already at full health, and therefore the spell is not restoring HP.
If the spell would bring the character back with 1 HP per hit die, it will actually have to reduce the current health of its fully repaired body to reach that number. The spell in this case is very clearly not restoring HP to the subject.

It may also be argued that you lose the immunity to healing spells when you die. It is a class feature, after all, and as far as I know a corpse doesn't retain its class levels. Last time I threw a dead monk off a cliff, I'm fairly certain he didn't slow fall.

The Shadow Conjuration method seems like the most solid loophole, though, as it only creates the illusion that the subject has been resurrected rather than actually resurrecting it.

[Caelestion]

Well, if a corpse doesn't retain its class levels, it doesn't retain its hit points either and therefore being brought back to life automatically restores its class levels and hp.

[Gildedragon]

Well, if a corpse doesn't retain its class levels, it doesn't retain its hit points either and therefore being brought back to life automatically restores its class levels and hp.

The spell would already have worked so there wouldn't be any spell to resist

Also: this is probably relevant.
Healing Immunity is described as, well, immunity, ie: unbeatable SR. SR can be dropped if willing. So yeah, because of the way that the rezzy spell works, letting the target know the basics of their would be resurrecter, I'd figure they do have the opportunity to drop their SR

[TheBrassDuke]

It can be argued that, being dead, the immunities are lost

(Limited) Wish / Miracle probably work too
Though those might be too high level

Shadowcraft Mage "Shadow Conjuration" Revivify? It'd be an Illusion spell, not a Conjuration... not sure if the healing would work for Shadowing though

Humanoid Essence line of spells on the remains would probably also work

Bolded Emphasis mine.

I've been looking around since I read this. And I'm pretty sure that it would work, because as it works like a Healing Spell, it is not; it is not subjected to the [Healing] subschool or anything. Go ScM!


The Shadow Conjuration method seems like the most solid loophole, though, as it only creates the illusion that the subject has been resurrected rather than actually resurrecting it.

No, because with the feat shenanigans, it becomes real...

[Gildedragon]

Bolded Emphasis mine.

I've been looking around since I read this. And I'm pretty sure that it would work, because as it works like a Healing Spell, it is not; it is not subjected to the [Healing] subschool or anything. Go ScM!



No, because with the feat shenanigans, it becomes real...

Actually it doesn't work. Sorry about that. It only can mimic the Creation and Summoning subschools
But shadow miracle would work

Also the "corpse has no class features" ruling, or if corpses do have class features: then they ought be fixable to max HP and then raised, and if corpses/dead characters can't be "fixed" to max HP because they don't have HP (a lie because objects do have HP), that is to say a dead character has "null value" HP then: raise dead ought work because it doesn't increase the HP but set it at a value (1 per HD)
And if the DM rejects that: then lower your spell immunity

[Gullintanni]

Maybe not exactly what you're looking for, but Reincarnate is a transmutation effect. Then you just need a casting or two of Polymorph Any Object to turn your new body back into a Warforged.

[Fouredged Sword]

Maybe not exactly what you're looking for, but Reincarnate is a transmutation effect. Then you just need a casting or two of Polymorph Any Object to turn your new body back into a Warforged.

Or you could get lucky and roll into being a warforged charger.

[Caelestion]

I'd figure they do have the opportunity to drop their SR

Well, of course you would. Then again, if your GM will allow such a ruling, then you don't need to roll your Escape Artist check against the rules to allow it.

[Demonique]

How trickily can Contingency be worded?
Could the spell be cast with the intent to teleport (or otherwise remove the target) from danger if an attack or effect would result in death, either immediately or by loss of HP or ability points?

EDIT: Oh, and I looked at Miracle. It only duplicates other spells. With my DM hat on, i would say a duplicated spell retains it's schools.

-Demi-

[Gullintanni]

Or you could get lucky and roll into being a warforged charger.

Doesn't matter - I checked the SRD and reincarnate can't be used on constructs at all. Oops.

EDIT: Miracle still works, you just have to pay the xp cost for the "greater miracle" function.

[ShurikVch]

SR can be dropped if willing. So yeah, because of the way that the rezzy spell works, letting the target know the basics of their would be resurrecter, I'd figure they do have the opportunity to drop their SRAre dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) creatures able to take standard actions?



Doesn't matter - I checked the SRD and reincarnate can't be used on constructs at all. Oops.Why?
Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm):
Target: Dead creature touched

[Gildedragon]

Are dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) creatures able to take standard actions?


Well they get to deny the rezzing so... yes?
I mean if their Immunity applies, then they are bound to have a choice re. dropping it
If the immunity is tied to their body... then reincarnate or True Rez (post body destruction) is bound to work

The takeaway is that WotC didn't think everything through in regards to death.

Overall I'd talk with the DM and, worst case, go for a rule that either: life restoring magic works and brings back the warforged juggernaut at -9 but stable, or 0 and stable; or it doesn't work, but they can't "die" either, just that if they would ordinarily die, they are disabled until their HP is restored to a positive number via repairs... And of the body is destroyed it has to be "Made Whole" to revive the Jugger. The central argument being that Death ought be as easy or hard to come back from for any player for the sake of game fun

[ShurikVch]

Well they get to deny the rezzing so... yes?Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm):
In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.For me, it looks like unwilling dead is just not a legal spell target - so no actions on their part required

But even if you're right - are you sure it's a standard action?

And even if yes - that action may belong to a petitioner (which have a completely separate body)

[Caelestion]

And even if yes - that action may belong to a petitioner (which have a completely separate body)

Indeed, yes. Raise dead specifically notes that a creature's soul must be willing to return, so trying to come up with funky reasons how a dead body can drop its own immunity to something is a total non-starter. Again, just ask your GM about how he will resolve the issue and avoid all these patently transparent ways to subvert the disadvantages of a powerful prestige class.

[Gullintanni]

Are dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) creatures able to take standard actions?


Why?
Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm):

SRD:

"A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age."

That's why. ><

[Gildedragon]

SRD:

"A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age."

That's why. ><

They never lose the Living Construct subtype tho; as such they ought still be valid targets

[zergling.exe]

They never lose the Living Construct subtype tho; as such they ought still be valid targets

Living Construct doesn't make them a valid target for reincarnate in the first place, only raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection.

[Gullintanni]

They never lose the Living Construct subtype tho; as such they ought still be valid targets

It's possible. But specific trumps general and reincarnate explicitly says it doesn't effect constructs. Living constructs are a subset of constructs.

[Anxe]

I'd allow a variant of the Clone spell to work on a juggernaut. The mage builds you a fresh body and your soul transfers to it when you die. Sounds similar to what fredg was suggesting.

EDIT: If you want what fredg mentioned, its called the Circlet of Preservation and is in the Eberron Campaign Setting book.
Wish or Miracle should also still work to bring a juggernaut back to life, but that would require some deep pockets and/or powerful friends.

[Mordaedil]

Wouldn't a warforged simply need to be repaired to positive hit points and then have it's on button pushed?

[Vaern]

It's possible. But specific trumps general and reincarnate explicitly says it doesn't effect constructs. Living constructs are a subset of constructs.
Raise Dead and Resurrection also say they don't affect constructs, and in fact the description for the construct type states that they can not be raised or resurrected because they were never alive to begin with. However, the description for the living construct subtype explicitly states that they are in fact alive and can be raised and resurrected.


Wouldn't a warforged simply need to be repaired to positive hit points and then have it's on button pushed?
It's not quite as simple as that for them. They're living constructs, which means that they actually have a soul. Even if the body was repaired, the soul would still need to be returned to the body.

True Resurrection might actually work. True Res doesn't require a part of the target's body to work, so if healing immunity is assumed to be a physical aspect of the character which remains active after death then you can ignore the immunity simply by not targeting a piece of the body. If the healing immunity is assumed to be an aspect of the soul, then it will still have the ability to willingly lower its defenses to accept the spell.

[Caelestion]

However, the description for the living construct subtype explicitly states that they are in fact alive and can be raised and resurrected.

But since it says nothing about reincarnation, it would not be kosher to extrapolate from there that that also works.

Personally, I could see true resurrection entirely recreating a destroyed juggernaut's body and drawing back whatever soul warforged have to its broken shell, but then it would still have to be repaired from -10 up to positive hp again.

[ShurikVch]

But since it says nothing about reincarnation, it would not be kosher to extrapolate from there that that also works.

Personally, I could see true resurrection entirely recreating a destroyed juggernaut's body and drawing back whatever soul warforged have to its broken shell, but then it would still have to be repaired from -10 up to positive hp again.Oh, come on!

You're rejecting one thing "because it isn't allowed explicitly", but completely OK with another thing - which absolutely certainly doesn't work. Where's the logic there?

True Resurrection is still of (healing) subschool

Reincarnate was written during the time when there wasn't such thing as "dead construct" ("normal" Constructs are destroyed at 0 hp, not killed - it's different things), so "Constructs ... can't be reincarnated" is just a reminder of pre-existing rule; Living Constructs, on the other hand, are actually may be dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) - thus, logically, reincarnated (and if not - then there's no hope - because, hey, it's not like this is the first "Game Over" option in the RAW)

[Caelestion]

I said, "I could see", as in it's a vaguely plausible argument for a 9th-level spell (and frankly, it's miles more plausible than the shenanigans about a dead body specifically dropping its own immunity to something). My comment was more in line with throwing a bone than actively supporting that idea as RAW.

As for reincarnation, D&D is all about 'specific overruling general', so if there isn't a specific rule saying otherwise, it's not RAW. It might suck, but there you are.

[ShurikVch]

I said, "I could see", as in it's a vaguely plausible argument for a 9th-level spellUnfortunately, rules are the same for 0th-level and 9th-level spells (specific exceptions aside)
For example, I don't suggested reviving by the Wish - that poster child of Wizard's "UNLIMITED POWAH" - because it revives by duplicating resurrection (thus, healing subschool again)

(and frankly, it's miles more plausible than the shenanigans about a dead body specifically dropping its own immunity to something).True! :smallsmile:



As for reincarnation, D&D is all about 'specific overruling general', so if there isn't a specific rule saying otherwise, it's not RAW. It might suck, but there you are.If creature type is the biggest problem there, it can be corrected with a quick cast of Greater Humanoid Essence (or even Aberrate)

[Caelestion]

If creature type is the biggest problem there, it can be corrected with a quick cast of Greater Humanoid Essence (or even Aberrate)

That only lasts one round per level, but its target is just "a construct" and doesn't bother to specify that the construct must be alive, so as part of your regular balanced spell diet, that might actually work. :smallsmile:

[Gullintanni]

That only lasts one round per level, but its target is just "a construct" and doesn't bother to specify that the construct must be alive, so as part of your regular balanced spell diet, that might actually work. :smallsmile:

Though, if you can remove construct type temporarily, Resurrection will work just as well as Reincarnate with no need for Polymorph cheese to get back into a warforged body.

I do believe that would work though. Mission accomplished?

[Gildedragon]

Though, if you can remove construct type temporarily, Resurrection will work just as well as Reincarnate with no need for Polymorph cheese to get back into a warforged body.

I do believe that would work though. Mission accomplished?


Humanoid Essence line of spells on the remains would probably also work

Not to be salty but that what are some chips without some: just a sheets of dried starchy thing

Note that Humanoid Essence, Lesser would suffice (as it makes the construct vulnerable to Healing subschool effects. Greater would only be needed in case that the warforged needs a reincarnation... though the class's benefits get all wonky after that

[Vaern]

I'm not sure if humanoid essence would actually work in this case. It seems like the ability to gain the full benefit of healing spells would be useful for a normal warforged, who would otherwise only receive half of the effect.
But in the juggernaut's case, it's sketchy. A normal construct isn't "immune" to healing - it is simply not a valid target. Humanoid Essence changes that and makes them valid targets, but as far as resistance goes, I don't think would actually remove the juggernaut's immunity quality, nor would it necessarily allow you to bypass the spell immunity of golems.

[JNAProductions]

Would a Dweomerkeepers Supernatural Spell help here?

[Mordaedil]

It's not quite as simple as that for them. They're living constructs, which means that they actually have a soul. Even if the body was repaired, the soul would still need to be returned to the body.

It just seems to me like people complicate it further than it actually needs to be. What says their soul even leaves their body when they are "struck dead"? They might be living constructs, but their core is still operational, unless that is destroyed.

At which point I find it hard to argue bringing them back to be possible outside of a miracle.

[Fouredged Sword]

What are the odds you can just supernatural POA body into a living version of itself?

[Anxe]

What are the odds you can just supernatural POA body into a living version of itself?

Interesting...

It wouldn't have any plating because PaO can't copy valuable metals.
"This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine."
You could always get that replaced though. And there's an interpretation to be made that if the metals are already present in the existing form they would still be present in the new one.

Another interpretation is that PaO would create a "new" warforged instead of bringing back the old one.

As a DM, you want there to be some sort of "tax" for death and for the choice to become a juggernaut. PaO gets around that in a way, but it shouldn't be free. Otherwise it makes sense to use PaO when you're bringing fleshy PCs back to life too. This could come in the form of taking a level as resurrect normally does and removing the plating as above. And the addition problem of your PC only being alive until they get hit by a dispel magic.