Thoughts on the Butchering Axe

[Briton]

So recently Paizo came out with the Player Companion Adventurer's Armory 2. In it there is the Butchering Axe.

Description below:


Exotic Two Handed Weapon

Cost: 65 gp
Dmg (S) 1d12
Dmg (M) 3d6
Crit: x3
Weight: 25 lbs
Type: S

A creation of the orc smiths of Belkzen, this axe has an oversized head bristling with spikes
and a long, thick haft that only barely counterbalances its weight. If your Strength
is less than 19 (or 17 for a Small or smaller butchering axe), you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it, as you’re unable to maneuver its daunting size and weight.

Thoughts on this piece of equipment?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Adding ability score requirements is weird, but otherwise my only gripe is that it wasn't added to orcish weapon familiarity along with the hornbow.

[Frosty]

so, standard greatsword is 2d6. You are spending a feat to gain 1d6 damage. I suppose it's a good deal if you're going for some sort of Vital Strike build.

[Starbuck_II]

so, standard greatsword is 2d6. You are spending a feat to gain 1d6 damage. I suppose it's a good deal if you're going for some sort of Vital Strike build.

Find a god that likes it to get a free proficiency as a Warpriest. Totally, should be a favored weapon by some god.

[khadgar567]

Find a god that likes it to get a free proficiency as a Warpriest. Totally, should be a favored weapon by some god.
Its favorite weapon of god nown as starbuck II

[Florian]

Fun with vital strike builds, hurray for H-Elves.

[Krazzman]

I like it. House ruled orcish weapon familiarity into it though.

[the_archduke]

So a colossal version of this (achievable by starting medium creatures through actual and virtual size increases) would be 12d6 I believe 3d6 medium>4d6 large>6d6 huge>8d6 gargantuan>12d6 colossal. Greater vital strike makes this 48d6 (average 168). Any way to boost this further?

And on a nat 20 crit it would be 72d6 (average 252) all before strength and other bonii.

A barbarian with furious finish would do 288 on a regular hit or 432 on a crit

[Krazzman]

So a colossal version of this (achievable by starting medium creatures through actual and virtual size increases) would be 12d6 I believe 3d6 medium>4d6 large>6d6 huge>8d6 gargantuan>12d6 colossal. Greater vital strike makes this 48d6 (average 168). Any way to boost this further?

And on a nat 20 crit it would be 72d6 (average 252) all before strength and other bonii.

A barbarian with furious finish would do 288 on a regular hit or 432 on a crit

I think there is a Vigilate thingy that let's you use Vital Strike as AoO and in the Suprise Round.

[eldskald]

So a colossal version of this (achievable by starting medium creatures through actual and virtual size increases) would be 12d6 I believe 3d6 medium>4d6 large>6d6 huge>8d6 gargantuan>12d6 colossal. Greater vital strike makes this 48d6 (average 168). Any way to boost this further?

And on a nat 20 crit it would be 72d6 (average 252) all before strength and other bonii.

A barbarian with furious finish would do 288 on a regular hit or 432 on a crit

How do you get all those size boosts? Only way I can think of is by being a Tiefling and taking Variant Tiefling Ability number 16, being under Enlarge Person and wielding an Impact Growing weapon. That's very limited, as growing only works once per day and your DM might require you to have 21 Str to wield it without incurring -2 penalty, which might be a problem before level 4. Were you thinking differently? Maybe we can boost it even higher!

[Florian]

How do you get all those size boosts? Only way I can think of is by being a Tiefling and taking Variant Tiefling Ability number 16, being under Enlarge Person and wielding an Impact Growing weapon. That's very limited, as growing only works once per day and your DM might require you to have 21 Str to wield it without incurring -2 penalty, which might be a problem before level 4. Were you thinking differently? Maybe we can boost it even higher!


Barbarian (Titan Mauler) 3/Oracle 17 would be a good start. Divine Vessel sets size to huge, Massive Weapons would allow for wielding the next size category.

[Lathrok]

So tiefling with pass for human and #16 can weild large, 1 level with brute vigilante gives you non magic size increase (huge) that stacks with enlarge person (gargantuan), impact growing takes it to collosal+, and if lead blades stacks with impact growing (doesn't say that it doesn't stack) that'll take it to collosal++

[Kallor]

I quite like it, though the high str requirement might make it annoying to use at low levels. Still, would consider using it at higher levels.

[upho]

Appears many of you have somehow missed this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u).


How do you get all those size boosts? Only way I can think of is by being a Tiefling and taking Variant Tiefling Ability number 16, being under Enlarge Person and wielding an Impact Growing weapon. That's very limited, as growing only works once per day and your DM might require you to have 21 Str to wield it without incurring -2 penalty, which might be a problem before level 4. Were you thinking differently? Maybe we can boost it even higher!The tiefling variant ability is explicitly limited to Large sized weapons specifically, not to "weapons one size category larger" or similar. So it's utterly useless if you are or become larger than Medium through any means or can wield a weapon larger than Medium size anyways. In addition, strictly according to RAW it only removes the penalties of wielding Large size weapons, it doesn't allow you to wield weapons you otherwise wouldn't be able to wield at all, so even when you're Medium size you still cannot wield a Large two-handed weapon.

Also, growing weapon provides an actual size change, and therefore it doesn't stack with enlarge person.


Barbarian (Titan Mauler) 3/Oracle 17 would be a good start. Divine Vessel sets size to huge, Massive Weapons would allow for wielding the next size category.How does this make you Huge?

AFAIK, divine vessel only increases your size by one category, just as enlarge person does. Actually, I'm pretty sure there are no spells besides maybe monstrous physique III (thriae queen?) which can increase your own size to larger than Large and while still allowing you to wield a manufactured weapon of appropriate size. The monstrous physique III actual size change is also hard-capped at Huge, and whether it also increases the weapon's size is dependent on GM fiat.


So tiefling with pass for human and #16 can weild large, 1 level with brute vigilante gives you non magic size increase (huge) that stacks with enlarge person (gargantuan), impact growing takes it to collosal+, and if lead blades stacks with impact growing (doesn't say that it doesn't stack) that'll take it to collosal++This would actually only give you a Gargantuan butchering axe with an 8d6 damage die. Again, according to RAW the tiefling ability is lost the moment your weapon becomes any size category other than Large and doesn't allow you to wield oversized two-handed weapons of any size. And again, growing doesn't stack with enlarge person, both being actual size changes.

On top of this, both lead blades and impact weapon provide effective size changes and thus they don't stack. But brute vigilante actually alters your base size and therefore it does stack with both actual size increases and effective size increases. So in detail, the above combo would result in the following: tiefling (Medium two-handed) + brute vigilante (Large) + enlarge person OR growing weapon (Huge) + impact weapon OR lead blades (Gargantuan).

In a game limited to Paizo material, I believe the biggest damage die an attack made by a PC can have is 32d6 (112 average), which gives a vital strike damage die of max 128d6 (448 average) no earlier than 19th level. In detail, starting with any Medium race wielding a Medium butchering axe (3d6 damage die):

Synthesist summoner 13+ with 10 EP Large evo for a Huge base size (Huge, 6d6)
Rod of giant summoning used with summon eidolon adding the Giant Simple Template for a Gargantuan base size (Gargantuan, 8d6)*
Titan mauler barb 3+ for one size category larger butchering axe base size (Colossal, 12d6)
Enlarge person or any other similar spell for one actual size increase (Colossal+, 16d6)
Ascetic Style + Modified Weapon Proficiency (butchering axe) + Versatile weapon mod (monk group) + strong jaw for two effective size increases (Colossal+++, 32d6)
Greater Vital Strike for x4 damage die (128d6)
*It's a bit unclear whether this counts as altering base size or merely as a size change, but since it adds a template which actually alters the base size of the eidolon rather than change it à la enlarge person, I'm assuming it works according to RAW.

Might be worth noting that if adding 2 levels of ragechemist alchemist, this combo could also result in Str 72+ (16 biped eidolon, 16 Large evo, 4 Giant template, 5 eidolon Str bonus, 2 eidolon level ability increase, 6 ability increase evo, 6 enhancement belt, 5 inherent manual, 4 rage, 6 alchemical mutagen, 2 size enlarge person). So with Power Attack and say a +5 furious butchering axe, a normal hit with a vital strike deals 516 average damage (448 damage die, 46 Str, 7 enhancement, 15 Power Attack).

This is simply yet another example of how a synth based build can push practically any offense combat values to far more silly levels than anything else in the entire game can. No surprises here IMO.

[zergling.exe]

snip

This thread is from July of last year.

[upho]

This thread is from July of last year.Yes, and necro-ed by Lathrok less than three days ago, and then attracting the interest of others, like you and me.

And nothing about the sizing rules has changed since July of last year, by which time the FAQ I linked to was already more than two years old.

[Roland St. Jude]

So tiefling with pass for human and #16 can weild large, 1 level with brute vigilante gives you non magic size increase (huge) that stacks with enlarge person (gargantuan), impact growing takes it to collosal+, and if lead blades stacks with impact growing (doesn't say that it doesn't stack) that'll take it to collosal++


Yes, and necro-ed by Lathrok less than three days ago, and then attracting the interest of others, like you and me.

And nothing about the sizing rules has changed since July of last year, by which time the FAQ I linked to was already more than two years old.Sheriff: Please don't necro old threads, and if you see a necro'd thread, please don't post in it. In general, don't encourage, condone, or try to excuse violating the Forum Rules.