PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Player-proofing an ability.



Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 01:32 AM
As the title suggests, I need an ability player-proofed. There needs to not be any loopholes in it, at all, that any player is going to find. The ability is called That Which Can Eternal Lie, and its purpose is to ensure that a defeated creature with this ability only goes into hibernation and can never truly be killed. A party that defeats such a creature still gets experience and the threat subsides for a time, but not forever. This ability is used on four CR 30 creatures and a score of CR 5-15 creatures that are all technically part of those CR 30 creatures. These four are the closest thing to gods in this setting, so them surviving any campaign they appear in is rather important.


A creature with this ability cannot be slain through any means. Instead, in situations where death would normally occur, the creature enters hibernation. While hibernating, the creature becomes extremely resilient to damage, and has its natural armour, spell resistance, damage reduction and energy resistance abilities doubled from X to Y*. While hibernating, its regeneration is reduced to Z* per day. They will exit hibernation only upon reaching full HP again.

No damage type inflicts lethal damage to the creature. The creature will still be rendered unconscious as normal by nonlethal damage, but will not be forced into hibernation until it has incurred nonlethal damage equal to twice its maximum hit points**. This creature is immune to ability drain, any drain inflicted instead becomes temporary damage, which recovers one point each day with or without rest. Death effects do not kill the creature, instead they inflict nonlethal damage equal to the creature's full HP, and the creature if disintegrated will be forced into hibernation with nonlethal damage inflicted equal to twice its maximum HP in addition to pre-existing damage. A coup de grace only deals nonlethal damage equal to the max HP of the creature, and the creature cannot be killed by massive damage. Even Wish and Miracle cannot kill the creature, and instead inflict nonlethal damage to them equal to their full HP if they are already hibernating, and only if they are already hibernating.

Even while hibernating, this creature is not immobile. Instead, it (insert specific movement rules here, generally this allows a single special movement method to allow it to escape the party, such as Nya-Za'Thoth teleporting back to her impact crater, or Sha'nit-Feek'it-La'kep falling upwards, and additionally a movement option to drift 5ft/round in any direction to avoid obstacles).

*For the CR 30s, this is from 20 to 40.

**This will keep the biggies, who have 30d8+30, 30d8+150 or 30d8+300 down for 17, 29 or 44 days.


If you can find ways to kill these things, tell me so I can change that.

khadgar567
2017-07-23, 03:04 AM
little bit more info maybe all i can learn from this is this monster has some sort of swarm with him and instead of dying like regular mook enters some sort of hibernation sleep where its regeneration clocks up. So what type is this creature

gooddragon1
2017-07-23, 03:12 AM
As the title suggests, I need an ability player-proofed. There needs to not be any loopholes in it, at all, that any player is going to find. The ability is called That Which Can Eternal Lie, and its purpose is to ensure that a defeated creature with this ability only goes into hibernation and can never truly be killed. A party that defeats such a creature still gets experience and the threat subsides for a time, but not forever. This ability is used on four CR 30 creatures and a score of CR 5-15 creatures that are all technically part of those CR 30 creatures. These four are the closest thing to gods in this setting, so them surviving any campaign they appear in is rather important.


A creature with this ability cannot be slain through any means. Instead, in situations where death would normally occur, the creature enters hibernation. While hibernating, the creature becomes extremely resilient to damage, and has its natural armour, spell resistance, damage reduction and energy resistance abilities doubled from X to Y*. While hibernating, its regeneration is reduced to Z* per day. They will exit hibernation only upon reaching full HP again.

No damage type inflicts lethal damage to the creature. The creature will still be rendered unconscious as normal by nonlethal damage, but will not be forced into hibernation until it has incurred nonlethal damage equal to twice its maximum hit points**. This creature is immune to ability drain, any drain inflicted instead becomes temporary damage, which recovers one point each day with or without rest. Death effects do not kill the creature, instead they inflict nonlethal damage equal to the creature's full HP, and the creature if disintegrated will be forced into hibernation with nonlethal damage inflicted equal to twice its maximum HP in addition to pre-existing damage. A coup de grace only deals nonlethal damage equal to the max HP of the creature, and the creature cannot be killed by massive damage. Even Wish and Miracle cannot kill the creature, and instead inflict nonlethal damage to them equal to their full HP if they are already hibernating, and only if they are already hibernating.

Even while hibernating, this creature is not immobile. Instead, it (insert specific movement rules here, generally this allows a single special movement method to allow it to escape the party, such as Nya-Za'Thoth teleporting back to her impact crater, or Sha'mit-Feek'it-La'kep falling upwards, and additionally a movement option to drift 5ft/round in any direction to avoid obstacles).

*For the CR 30s, this is from 20 to 40. For the others it is 5 or 10 normally so it will be 10 or 20.

**This will keep the biggies, who have 30d8+30, 30d8+150 or 30d8+300 down for 17, 29 or 44 days.


If you can find ways to kill these things, tell me so I can change that.

If this creature would be rendered unable to take actions of it's own volition by some means other than by hibernation it is instead <impacted negatively in some manner as described>. If this creature would be affected by an effect that would cause it to lose this ability it is intead <impacted negatively in some manner as described>.

This catch all should prevent things like flesh to stone, baleful polymorph, and domination of any kind.

They can do a good number of things to it, but they can't ever permanently disable it without killing it (and killing it won't permanently disable it because it goes into hibernation).

Just as long as you don't allow them to diplomacy it you should be fine I think. I could be wrong.

EDIT: Removed redundancy.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 03:17 AM
little bit more info maybe all i can learn from this is this monster has some sort of swarm with him and instead of dying like regular mook enters some sort of hibernation sleep where its regeneration clocks up. So what type is this creature

I don't know where you got the idea that this was one creature with a swarm instead of four entirely separate entities and their projections. And actually, while in hibernation their regeneration is greatly slowed, but harming them further becomes extremely difficult.

The creatures' type is setting unique, referred to as "celestials", but this denotes a cosmic origin rather than a divine one. The four important ones are in the Great Old One subtype, which is exactly what it sounds like.

khadgar567
2017-07-23, 03:25 AM
I don't know where you got the idea that this was one creature with a swarm instead of four entirely entities and their minions (though "projections" is more accurate). And actually, while in hibernation their regeneration is greatly slowed, but harming them further becomes extremely difficult.

The creatures' type is setting unique, referred to as "celestials", but this denotes a cosmic origin rather than a divine one. The four important ones are in the Great Old One subtype, which is exactly what it sounds like.
swarm may be the wrong term as i have not know chuttlu chan is their patron know that changes the scales. Are these 4 celestials acts as 4 horseman in your setting or you have other ideas and why not as they hibernate they relase unique psionic aura make others not notice them (with dc equal to 20 + celestial hit dice plus pcs will mod) or think them perrished

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 03:26 AM
swarm may be the wrong term as i have not know chuttlu chan is their patron know that changes the scales. Are these 4 celestials acts as 4 horseman in your setting or you have other ideas and why not as they hibernate they relase unique psionic aura make others not notice them (with dc equal to 20 + celestial hit dice plus pcs will mod) or think them perrished

Can you try that one again? I can't make heads or tails of this.

khadgar567
2017-07-23, 03:40 AM
Can you try that one again? I can't make heads or tails of this.
Okay swarm may not be the right word for this guys. Did you say these angels working for old gods in your previous post. then why not stole from warhammer and let them teleport to unique plane were players cant reach like their own mind space.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 03:44 AM
If this creature would be rendered unable to take actions of it's own volition by some means other than by hibernation it is instead <impacted negatively in some manner as described>. If this creature would be affected by an effect that would cause it to lose this ability it is intead <impacted negatively in some manner as described>.

This catch all should prevent things like flesh to stone, baleful polymorph, and domination of any kind.

Oh. I can just give them immunity to transmutation as a separate ability, though when was the last time you successfully transmuted a 30hd creature with mondo saves and spell resistance?


They can do a good number of things to it, but they can't ever permanently disable it without killing it (and killing it won't permanently disable it because it goes into hibernation).

I believe one loophole was permanent forcecage, which was why I gave them escape abilities, but otherwise I don't see anything more. Also incurable wounds need to not work.


Just as long as you don't allow them to diplomacy it you should be fine I think. I could be wrong.

EDIT: Removed redundancy.

I got a good laugh out of that one.


Okay swarm may not be the right word for this guys. Did you say these angels working for old gods in your previous post. then why not stole from warhammer and let them teleport to unique plane were players cant reach like their own mind space.

They aren't angels, there's no other planes and the great old ones aren't working for anybody.

Jormengand
2017-07-23, 11:18 AM
Some of the attempted workarounds to Amkii the Ineffable (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360693-Amkii-the-Ineffable-(3-5-Deity-If-I-stat-it-you-CAN-T-kill-it!))'s True Immortality might be things worth looking at here, to make sure you're those-things-proof. A lot of them rely on weird interpretations of homebrew that you probably weren't allowing anyway, but there are a few things that you might want to be clear on, IIRC.

sengmeng
2017-07-23, 11:24 AM
Would the player's have a way to manipulate time to keep them in hibernation almost indefinitely? Or shunt them to another plane they can't escape (even if they have to create that plane)? Teleporting them into a star so they get constantly damaged beyond their regeneration/resistance? Otherwise, I think it's close to airtight.

Edit: Also, bathing it in poison constantly might keep it paralyzed as long as they keep replenishing it.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 01:45 PM
Would the player's have a way to manipulate time to keep them in hibernation almost indefinitely?

Pretty sure they can't manipulate time that well.


Or shunt them to another plane they can't escape (even if they have to create that plane)?

There's no other planes, so no.


Teleporting them into a star so they get constantly damaged beyond their regeneration/resistance?

That would actually work, but nobody has that kind of teleportation range.


Otherwise, I think it's close to airtight.

That's good to hear.


Edit: Also, bathing it in poison constantly might keep it paralyzed as long as they keep replenishing it.

Actually, their entire creature type is unaffected by disease and poison, as well as mind-affecting magic.

FreddyNoNose
2017-07-23, 02:01 PM
Pretty sure they can't manipulate time that well.



There's no other planes, so no.



That would actually work, but nobody has that kind of teleportation range.



That's good to hear.



Actually, their entire creature type is unaffected by disease and poison, as well as mind-affecting magic.

Well, instead of having a body hibernating that they might be able to do something with. How about the body disappears and at some point in the future it reforms at some "random" location. Random perhaps is a bad choice, but it really means somewhere other than where it died and not predictable by any means.

zlefin
2017-07-23, 02:04 PM
what keeps the players from simply teleporting next to them every 15 days or so to pile on enough non-lethal damage to keep the things stuck in hibernation forever?

also, player-proofing against what level of shenanigans/opness? (in particular stuff like epci spellcasting)

is there a limit to how much nonlethal damage can be dealt to them? i.e. could you put on enoug hdamage so it'd take years or millenia to regenerate it all?

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 02:18 PM
what keeps the players from simply teleporting next to them every 15 days or so to pile on enough non-lethal damage to keep the things stuck in hibernation forever?

The creature's continued movement, into hostile territory that does not harm them. The arrival of the creature's many offspring to try and free them. The eventual intervention by other great old ones. Their own mortality. The infinite passage of time.

There is one successfully imprisoned, by the way, but it takes the ruins of a giant building, a support column through the heart, an epic level party of 8, dozens of high level adventurers and a literal legion of mid-level soldiers, the best fortifications in the world, a massive amount of artillery and constant funding from the entire continent and beyond to keep her there. It will also fail someday, and when K'Macthia escapes from the Tomb of the Mother, what chance do you think there really is that she can be trapped again?


also, player-proofing against what level of shenanigans/opness? (in particular stuff like epci spellcasting)

Given that the strongest are CR 30, they should at least be proofed against everything that level.


is there a limit to how much nonlethal damage can be dealt to them? i.e. could you put on enoug hdamage so it'd take years or millenia to regenerate it all?

There is no limit, so yes, you could do as such, but that is not dead which can eternal lie. What's a thousand years of sleep to a creature older than our entire species? Eventually it will return, and you won't be there to stop it.

zlefin
2017-07-23, 02:41 PM
The creature's continued movement, into hostile territory that does not harm them. The arrival of the creature's many offspring to try and free them. The eventual intervention by other great old ones. Their own mortality. The infinite passage of time.

There is one successfully imprisoned, by the way, but it takes the ruins of a giant building, a support column through the heart, an epic level party of 8, dozens of high level adventurers and a literal legion of mid-level soldiers, the best fortifications in the world, a massive amount of artillery and constant funding from the entire continent and beyond to keep her there. It will also fail someday, and when K'Macthia escapes from the Tomb of the Mother, what chance do you think there really is that she can be trapped again?



Given that the strongest are CR 30, they should at least be proofed against everything that level.



There is no limit, so yes, you could do as such, but that is not dead which can eternal lie. What's a thousand years of sleep to a creature older than our entire species? Eventually it will return, and you won't be there to stop it.

what kind of hostile territory?
if the party is ECL 30, territory hostile enough to threaten them might be rather difficult to make, if not impossible (if the party is high op).

it sounds like the successfully imprisoned one should take less to keep imprisoned, though I guess it depends a lot on to what extent others would come to help free them. i'd need to see their stats more fully to see what it would take to do the job (and to see how optimized the epic level people guarding it are, higher optimization at epic levels gets very stupid powerful very quickly)

do it's offspring eventually die off? or what if they all also get stuck into a hibernation mode? eventually you could have them all captured.

proofing something against epic magic might prove difficult, given how stupidly powerful epic magic can be. especially if you allow epic spellcasting, cuz those are just crazy if you let people make their own.

an epically powerful creature with no limit to its lifespan should be able to do the show up and beat on the monster to keep its nonlethal damage so high it'll never escape hibernation.

from the adventurers standpoint, keeping something immobilized for say a billion years may be all they care about; let others worry about keeping up the number after then.

I asked about opness because at higher optimization levels, a lvl 30 party can do some utterly crazy things. and it'd be very very hard to make something immune to tippyverse level shenanigans.

sengmeng
2017-07-23, 03:53 PM
Actually, their entire creature type is unaffected by disease and poison, as well as mind-affecting magic.

What kind of ability damage were they taking then? Spells like shivering touch? Keep in mind that if any ability score is constantly kept at zero, that's paralysis.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 03:54 PM
what kind of hostile territory?
if the party is ECL 30, territory hostile enough to threaten them might be rather difficult to make, if not impossible (if the party is high op).

K'Macthia retreats underground until she finds bedrock (that's why she had to be trapped inside a stone building). Sha'nit-Feek'it-La'kep falls upwards into outer space (where she will remain until she wakes up and gently floats down). It Yeek'Kal Thet sinks to the crushing depths of the ocean (where no other living thing can withstand the pressure). Nya-Za'Thoth teleports back to her impact crater, now an active caldera (and while lava doesn't hurt her...).


it sounds like the successfully imprisoned one should take less to keep imprisoned, though I guess it depends a lot on to what extent others would come to help free them.

You'd be surprised the kind of assaults they face. I mean, every once in a while one of the other great old ones will show up to try and free her, and sometimes bring a few of their kids with them. Like, say, It Yeek'Kal Thet (great old one, CR 30) rising out of the ocean with a couple of Othersea Leviathans (great ones, CR 20, children of It Yeek'Kal Thet and K'Macthia), it can get pretty nasty. I mean, do the math on that encounter level, already we've got a CR 30 and two CR 20s, and that's not mentioning that It Yeek'Kal Thet, K'Macthia and their great one children can all bring a sizable army of mortal hybrids (ECL +2) and celestials in the minor class (CR 5), lesser class (CR 10) and greater class (CR 15), and ordinary mortals who happen to follow them. They can also continue fighting with projections while hibernating, so even K'Macthia herself can join the fight (despite her voices being unable to physically harm anyone). This place is getting hit with literal armies of monsters every couple years because as it turns out, the great old ones all kinda hate that one of them is imprisoned by mortals. (Though they don't seem to see the hypocrisy, having imprisoned Nya-Za'Thoth themselves.)


i'd need to see their stats more fully to see what it would take to do the job (and to see how optimized the epic level people guarding it are, higher optimization at epic levels gets very stupid powerful very quickly)

Whose stats? K'Macthia? The epic party? The soldiers, elite response teams, various monsters? I mean, I can do that.


do it's offspring eventually die off?

Depends. Their children from mortal women age and die like any other mortals. Their children with eachother, however, can only die violently.


or what if they all also get stuck into a hibernation mode? eventually you could have them all captured.

There's a few issues with trying this. The big one being that they can afford to wait longer than you, but also that their children will come for you in droves like they do to free K'Macthia.

There's also a rather serious risk of making things worse. For example, K'Macthia was imprisoned because she was transforming the landscape around her and the creatures within it. She wasn't malicious, but people tend not to be happy when ordinary countryside is being converted into an alien landscape. That's why she was betrayed by her own followers and trapped with a building through her chest, but this did not stop her from altering the landscape around her. Instead, the mutations were twisted by K'Macthia's pain and anger, and turned the still spreading Otherlands from "strange and otherworldly" to "hostile and horrifying".

Or for another example, Nya-Za'thoth was imprisoned by her own kind. The only reason she stays where she is in The White Unknown is because every time she tries to leave It Yeek'Kal Thet and Sha'nit-Feek'it-La'kep come and force her back to her crater. What do you think will happen if you defeat the other two, and go from dealing with great old ones with intelligence scores of 4 to a great old one with an intelligence score of 20, a genuinely vicious temperament, an obsession with power and by far the most powerful army of the four of them, already distributed around the world? How long do you think it'll take for her to realize she's free to leave? Now you're stuck fighting a vicious alien god with an army that grows with every battle while reality gets drunk on the job. Worse, forcing her into hibernation won't stop her from growing her army of voices and casting memories on the surroundings, she'll be more powerful dreaming in inhabited lands than she ever was awake in empty ones.


proofing something against epic magic might prove difficult, given how stupidly powerful epic magic can be. especially if you allow epic spellcasting, cuz those are just crazy if you let people make their own.

I don't use standard epic rules. I use an epic replacer, however, that allows the accumulation of higher spell slots, BAB, additional attacks, saving throws and so forth. So a 30th level fighter, for example, can attack at +30/25/20/15/10/5 and dish out a LOT of damage in a single round, and a 25th level sorceress has 13th level spell slots and can cast, say, quickened meteor swarm.


an epically powerful creature with no limit to its lifespan should be able to do the show up and beat on the monster to keep its nonlethal damage so high it'll never escape hibernation.

I'm not totally sure about that, for a couple reasons. Mostly that there's not exactly an abundance of creatures that can pose a significant threat to these things. I mean, there aren't tarrasques in this setting but a tarrasque would be permanently killed in a couple rounds fighting one of these things. (That's probably WHY there aren't tarrasques in this setting, come to think of it.)


from the adventurers standpoint, keeping something immobilized for say a billion years may be all they care about; let others worry about keeping up the number after then.

A billion years is going to be beyond anybody's means, hundreds or thousands is largely where the limit is going to fall, and that's close enough to the present that the fear of their day of emergence is going to be quite pronounced. Even where K'Macthia is, it seems likely there will still be civilization when she escapes and that civilization is in for it.


I asked about opness because at higher optimization levels, a lvl 30 party can do some utterly crazy things. and it'd be very very hard to make something immune to tippyverse level shenanigans.

Oh, I'm aware. That's why I use an epic replacer instead of standard epic rules.


What kind of ability damage were they taking then? Spells like shivering touch?

Spells, yes.


Keep in mind that if any ability score is constantly kept at zero, that's paralysis.

I am keenly aware, but you'd have to penetrate a lot of spell resistance, and all of them have abilities that can reverse this, such as Nya-Za'Thoth and It Yeek'Kal Thet being able to cast Miracle multiple times each day.

Kish
2017-07-23, 04:49 PM
I think the basic premise here is in error. The best response to rules-lawyer players is to tell them to stop rules-lawyering, not to exceed their system mastery. My advice is to just say "they're unkillable."

Douglas
2017-07-23, 04:58 PM
K'Macthia retreats underground until she finds bedrock (that's why she had to be trapped inside a stone building). Sha'nit-Feek'it-La'kep falls upwards into outer space (where she will remain until she wakes up and gently floats down). It Yeek'Kal Thet sinks to the crushing depths of the ocean (where no other living thing can withstand the pressure). Nya-Za'Thoth teleports back to her impact crater, now an active caldera (and while lava doesn't hurt her...).
There are spells and/or magic items that trivialize the hostility of each of those terrains. Just from memory, in order, Xorn Movement from Spell Compendium for going through rock almost like it isn't there, Necklace of Adaptation from DMG (and if necessary Energy Immunity (Cold) from Spell Compendium) for supplying air in vacuum and not getting frozen, Transformation of the Deeps from Stormwrack for ignoring deep water pressure damage, and Energy Immunity (Fire) from Spell Compendium for not getting hurt by lava. There are probably plenty of other ways too.

Of the mechanics you've mentioned so far, the only one that seems a serious obstacle to me for a high-ish practical optimization epic level party trying to seal these things away indefinitely is the "continue fighting with projections while hibernating" bit, and even that depends on the details.

To really judge how well your mechanics support the scenario you've described, I think I'd have to see full stats, including all special abilities, for each of the four Great Old Ones, all the other creatures with this can't-be-killed ability, and at least the upper range of their supporting (but killable) monsters, along with the epic party and any especially notable features of the fortress that's keeping K'Macthia imprisoned. And whether we should assume the player characters have an optimization level similar to this epic NPC party.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 05:25 PM
There are spells and/or magic items that trivialize the hostility of each of those terrains. Just from memory, in order, Xorn Movement from Spell Compendium for going through rock almost like it isn't there, Necklace of Adaptation from DMG (and if necessary Energy Immunity (Cold) from Spell Compendium) for supplying air in vacuum and not getting frozen, Transformation of the Deeps from Stormwrack for ignoring deep water pressure damage, and Energy Immunity (Fire) from Spell Compendium for not getting hurt by lava. There are probably plenty of other ways too.

That's only one layer of defence that I've mentioned. Take Sha'nit-Feek... That's getting irritating to type. Shep. Take Shep as one example. They lose a fight, they fall up and will keep falling up until they recover. So you can survive in space, that's not the problem. HOW are you getting up there, exactly?


Of the mechanics you've mentioned so far, the only one that seems a serious obstacle to me for a high-ish practical optimization epic level party trying to seal these things away indefinitely is the "continue fighting with projections while hibernating" bit, and even that depends on the details.

The rules on that vary for each of them. The Voices of K'Macthia, for instance, are twenty identical CR 10 manifestations of K'Macthia's "voice", and while they are limited so the farther away from K'Macthia you get the fewer of them can reach you (their maximum distance from K'Macthia is a total between all twenty of 600 miles), if you're right in its face you've got ten CR 10 creatures fighting you that are all as unkillable as K'Macthia herself. For comparison, Nya-Za'Thoth lacks the voice of K'Macthia (this is charisma based) and can only generate two of these creatures with a combined range limit of 600 miles. However, K'Macthia's voice is gentle and cannot inflict physical harm, all of these creatures' abilities are mind-affecting and rely on manipulating attackers mentally and emotionally instead of stopping them. Nya-Za'Thoth's voice, however, is vicious and can both physically attack opponents and cast divine magic as if each of her two projections was a 10th level cleric. I think you see the issue there. Nya-Za'Thoth's voice will actually heal her if she's defeated, 100hp at a time.


To really judge how well your mechanics support the scenario you've described, I think I'd have to see full stats, including all special abilities, for each of the four Great Old Ones, all the other creatures with this can't-be-killed ability, and at least the upper range of their supporting (but killable) monsters, along with the epic party and any especially notable features of the fortress that's keeping K'Macthia imprisoned. And whether we should assume the player characters have an optimization level similar to this epic NPC party.

That could take a while. I've got a whopping two of those sheets written in full right now. Still, I'll do it. I hope you don't mind getting them in chunks.

Also, all the other unkillable creatures and the great old ones' voices.

Douglas
2017-07-23, 05:35 PM
That's only one layer of defence that I've mentioned. Take Sha'nit-Feek... That's getting irritating to type. Shep. Take Shep as one example. They lose a fight, they fall up and will keep falling up until they recover. So you can survive in space, that's not the problem. HOW are you getting up there, exactly?
Greater Teleport, maybe?

An idea just occurred to me, would Reverse Gravity affect the direction of Shep's fall? And on the more mundane end, how strong a tether would it take to tie Shep down to hold back the upward fall?


That could take a while. I've got a whopping two of those sheets written in full right now. Still, I'll do it. I hope you don't mind getting them in chunks.

Also, all the other unkillable creatures and the great old ones' voices.
The great old ones themselves and the epic party are probably by far the most important parts.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 05:40 PM
Greater Teleport, maybe?

Would not knowing the first thing about the cosmos count as "misleading information"?


An idea just occurred to me, would Reverse Gravity affect the direction of Shep's fall?

No, that's already how Shep is falling up.


And on the more mundane end, how strong a tether would it take to tie Shep down to hold back the upward fall?

Enough to stop 150 tons falling its full length.


The great old ones themselves and the epic party are probably by far the most important parts.

All right. Give me a couple hours (at least), I need to write up the actual sheets for three of the great old ones and all eight epic characters. I think I'll just start with one great old one and two of the epic characters at a time.

Douglas
2017-07-23, 05:47 PM
No, that's already how Shep is falling up.
Double-reversed Gravity?:smalltongue:

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see players argue that Shep's personal reversed gravity plus the spell should combine to cancel each other out. I think the rules on combining magical effects are unclear on the subject.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-23, 05:50 PM
Double-reversed Gravity?:smalltongue:

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see players argue that Shep's personal reversed gravity plus the spell should combine to cancel each other out. I think the rules on combining magical effects are unclear on the subject.

Well, it's worth noting that Shep already ignores gravity under regular circumstances. She's the size of a whale, and not a small one either, and she just kinda floats there like she doesn't know that's not supposed to happen. (Then again, with an intelligence of 4, maybe she doesn't know that's not supposed to happen.) It's the lamest reality-bending ability of the four of them, but it's hers. The hobbos that worship her certainly think it makes her impressive.

zlefin
2017-07-23, 06:01 PM
I have to agree that the best way to make them immortal is not using system rules, but to simpyl declare that they'll always be around, and that anything that woudl get around that will be dm fiat dealt with. trying to out system mastery is very hard.

as to all the other stuff in the last response to me, I don't know how to break up quotes well, so I'll just make a few points: if you have a cr 30 opponent, adding some cr 20 stuff, or cr 10 stuf, simply won't affect the cr at all. and none of the stuff you mentioned shouldn't inconvenience a lvl 30 party unless it's low op.
I'd ask how many games you've run before that went into epic levels, and what optimization level they used, if it's low, then there won't be a problem; but at the medium optimization level found on the board here (setting aside the crazier and high op stuff), crushing opponents like this might be too easy, but we'll see hwen you put up the stats. iirc awhile ago there was a contest to build a monk 20 that could solo the elder evils from the handbook (of course those guys were kinda weakly designed, but still high cr monsters)

gooddragon1
2017-07-23, 07:24 PM
I have to agree that the best way to make them immortal is not using system rules, but to simpyl declare that they'll always be around, and that anything that woudl get around that will be dm fiat dealt with. trying to out system mastery is very hard.

as to all the other stuff in the last response to me, I don't know how to break up quotes well, so I'll just make a few points: if you have a cr 30 opponent, adding some cr 20 stuff, or cr 10 stuf, simply won't affect the cr at all. and none of the stuff you mentioned shouldn't inconvenience a lvl 30 party unless it's low op.
I'd ask how many games you've run before that went into epic levels, and what optimization level they used, if it's low, then there won't be a problem; but at the medium optimization level found on the board here (setting aside the crazier and high op stuff), crushing opponents like this might be too easy, but we'll see hwen you put up the stats. iirc awhile ago there was a contest to build a monk 20 that could solo the elder evils from the handbook (of course those guys were kinda weakly designed, but still high cr monsters)

Beginning to agree with this. Just say that the universe itself keeps bringing them back. DM rule 0 is impossible to overcome with rules lawyering.

Just out of curiousity, does anyone have the stats of the dabaus or the lady of pain? :D

thereaper
2017-07-23, 11:44 PM
Have you considered making it ever-evolving, Doomsday-style? That way, if they do find a work-around, it will only work for so long, which seems to be the idea here.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 03:26 AM
Here you go, Douglass. 1/4 of it.


It Yeek'Kal Thet is a great old one that dwells in the oceans of the southern seas. She could initially be mistaken for a colossal-sized squid by her sihlouette, as she has a long bulbous body with a disproportionately massive head fin running half the length of her body and twelve long tentacles, but no beak and none of a squid's shorter arms. This illusion shatters quickly upon inspection. She has two humanoid arms hiding under her body, and her head fin conceals an eerily human face with a giant toothless mouth that opens and unhinges large enough to fit something larger than herself. Her arms end in disproportionately small, four-fingered hands with long, sharp nails and her eyes are gigantic even for the size of her head and never blink. Her squid eyes, further back, seem to be fake as they never look at anything, and upon inspection her head fin is actually attached to what appears to be half of a mammalian arm as the back and the remnants of a horn at the front. The tentacles lining her body lack suckers, and review shows them to have bones, revealing them as actually being prehensile tails. In fact, she has an entire skeleton, and while she has a heart and circulatory system she lacks any means of breathing, neither nostrils nor gills, and internally she doesn't even have lungs, just a heart and a digestive tract. She is a hermaphrodite, but her female genitalia are located outside her body where you'd expect a beak to be if you still thought she was a squid, and her male genitalia are inside her digestive tract for some reason we'll never know. One wonders how her kind, if she even has a kind since she's the only one on this world, manages to mate.

Now, of note is that It Yeek'Kal Thet can raise the dead. This actually leads to an interesting point: It Yeek'Kal Thet is not always hostile. In fact, It Yeek'Kal Thet is worshipped by some aquatic races as a goddess, most prominently the sahuagin. They give her females to impregnate (she's a hermaphrodite), she leaves them alone. They let the hybrid babies swim off to reunite with her, she doesn't go on a rampage to get them back. When she's in a particular sahuagin temple she'll even raise the dead if she gets one female to impregnate for each dead person she has to raise. (And if the dead person is a fertile female, they'll do as the payment.) Pretty straightforward tribal god stuff, and since she's too stupid to come up with a better scheme she does everything at a 1-1 ratio. That is, she wants one girl per village per year for "protection" and one girl per dead person she resurrects, and frankly she could get ten times that much if she wasn't an idiot.

This also means a party visiting the region can also raise the dead by visiting her. Since resurrection normally doesn't exist in Aelsif, that's a big deal. And all they need is a female for It Yeek'Kal Thet to impregnate. Preferably not a party member, be creative. (Hint: People will do just about anything for enough money.)

Size/Type: Colossal Celestial* (Great Old One)
Hit dice: 30d8+150 (285hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 10ft/round, 60ft/round swim
Armor class: 43 (Base 10, -8 size, +1 dex, +40 natural), touch 3, flat-footed 22
Damage reduction: 40/--
Energy resistance: 40 (All), immune to cold
Spell resistance: 55 (0 level, +15 Fth**, +40 extraordinary)
Base attack/Grapple: +30/+45
Attack: Tongue +37 melee (2d8+15 bludgeon)
Full attack: Tongue +37 melee (2d8+15 bludgeon) and 12 Tentacles +37 melee (2d8+15 bludgeon) and 2 claws +37 melee (2d12+15 slash)
Space/reach: 60ft/30ft (60ft tentacles, 120ft tongue)
Special attacks: Messenger of fear, faithshatter, jet, improved grab, constrict, swallow whole, raise dead, miracle, aura of forbiddance, mass heal, celestial freedom, storm of vengeance, sacred blood, voice of the cosmos, reality warp, spells
Special qualities: Terraphobic, that which can eternal lie, regeneration 20, deep retreat, sail of the cosmos, voices, comprehend languages, tongues
Saves: For +24, Ref +20, Will +34
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 4, Cha 20, Fth 40
Skills: Swim +33 (Did I mention she's an idiot? This is optimization as done by an idiot.)
Feats: Great fortitude, lightning reflexes, iron will, power attack, cleave, great cleave, awesome blow, combat reflexes, improved initiative, dodge, athletic
Environment: Ocean
Organization: Unique, +10d6 sahuagin deep hybrids (1hd infants) or +100d6 sahuagin deep hybrids (5hd young adults)*
Challenge rating: 30
Treasure: None
Advancement: N/A
Level adjustment: --

Messenger of fear (Ex****):
The mere sight or sound of a great old one instills an existential fear in the viewer. The deep trauma inflicted causes the target to become frightened for the next 24 hours, after which this effect is downgraded to shaken. This deep psychological effect impacts all non-celestial creatures with 30hd or less, is permanent and cannot be magically cured. The fear can be negated for a single day with a DC 25 faith check or cured permanently with a DC 25 intelligence check, which a natural 20 does not automatically succeed, and only one attempt is allowed per day. You cannot make either check during the first 48 hours. A creature can only be subjected to this effect one time from an individual great old one. A will save with a DC of 40 reduces the frightened condition to shaken and allows the ability checks to be made in 24 hours instead of 48. The save DC is faith based.

Faithshatter (Ex):
Any creature under the effect of Messenger of Fear has its faith permanently impaired, taking a point of faith drain for each round they witness It Yeek'Kal Thet. While being subjected to this effect, all divine casters have a 50% failure chance when casting divine spells. A will save with a DC of 40 negates this effect for one round.

Jet (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 360 feet, as long as she is within water. She must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting.

Improved grab (Ex):
If It Yeek'Kal Thet hits with any natural weapon, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Improved grab works only against opponents huge size or smaller. She has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If she chooses to do the latter, she takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled herself.

Constrict (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet can deal 2d8+15 bludgeon damage to any opponent she is grappling.

Swallow whole (Ex):
If It Yeek'Kal Thet begins its turn with an opponent held by her tongue, she can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin her opponent). If it succeeds, she swallows her prey, dealing no damage. It Yeek'Kal Thet can swallow any creature, but gargantuan creatures require two consecutive successful attempts to swallow and other colossal creatures require three. Targets in It Yeek'Kal Thet's stomach may take a point of constitution drain each round at It Yeek'Kal Thet's discretion, and may also be released at her discretion. Draining constitution from prey feeds her, but has no other benefits. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while she is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free by inflicting 30 damage to her digestive tract (AC 3, DR 20). If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, they escape It Yeek'Kal Thet's mouth and are subject to an attack of opportunity from her tongue.

Sail of the Cosmos (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet can glide through invisible means. She takes no falling damage, can move 5 feet for every 1 foot she falls, at a speed of 60ft per round. She also gains a +30 bonus to jump checks while in water.

Raise dead (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet may raise the recently dead, as if using the raise dead spell, while they are in her stomach. This causes It Yeek'Kal Thet to become fatigued, but has no other cost for her or the target.

Miracle (Ex):
Twice daily, It Yeek'Kal Thet may perform a miracle, as the spell. This has no experience cost, regardless of how it is used.

Aura of Forbiddance (Ex):
The area within 60ft of It Yeek'Kal Thet is treated as if under the effects of the spell Forbiddance, barring dimensional travel and dealing 6d6 damage to any creature that enters this area which It Yeek'Kal Thet has not chosen to allow. A will save with a DC of 40 will reduce damage to 1/2.

Mass Heal (Ex):
Once per minute as a standard action, It Yeek'Kal Thet can exude positive energy as if casting the spell Mass Heal with a caster level of 30.

Celestial Freedom (Ex):
At will as a standard action, It Yeek'Kal Thet can destroy any and all magical imprisonment as if casting the spell Freedom. She can use this ability even when unconscious.

Storm of vengeance (Ex):
At will as a concentration action, It Yeek'Kal Thet can create a violent storm, as if casting the spell Storm of Vengeance with a caster level of 30.

Sacred blood (Ex):
Any creature that damages It Yeek'Kal Thet with a melee attack is subject to a special ranged touch attack from a jet of blood with an attack bonus of +23 and a range increment of 5 feet. This blood induces an intense fervor in the target, draining their intelligence and charisma by 1, increasing their faith by 1 for 24 hours and healing them for 1d3 (as positive or negative energy). This effect will not damage the intelligence or raise the faith of an opponent whose intelligence is at 1, and will not damage the charisma or heal an opponent whose charisma is at 1. If an opponent's intelligence or charisma is 1 and they are subjected to this effect they will be driven mad, causing confusion until their intelligence and charisma are restored above 1. A fortitude save with a DC of 40 will negate the intelligence and charisma damage, but also prevent the faith bonus and healing, and a will save with a DC of 30 will prevent the insanity. This insanity is only curable using restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle or wish. The save DC is faith based.

Voice of the Cosmos (Ex):
As a free action, It Yeek'Kal Thet can channel her psychic voice to a practical end, and choose between the following passive effects each round. This ability still functions while she is unconscious, but not while hibernating.

Luring Hum, which compels targets that cannot see her to move in her direction, as if under the effects of suggestion. This effect can be negated with a will save, DC 30. The save DC is charisma based.

Wail of the Outer Seas, which gives opponents a -2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, AC, saving throws, ability checks and skill checks. This effect can be negated with a will save, DC 30. The save DC is charisma based.

Call of the Deep, which calls out for help. This effect only works while in the ocean. Using this effect for one round will bring a single creature from the lesser aquatic celestial table. Using this effect for one minute will bring a single creature will bring a single creature from the greater aquatic celestial table. The creature will arrive in 1d6 minutes.

Celestial Shout, which emits a massive burst of noise that stuns all creatures within 60ft for 1 round, deafens them for 4d6 and inflicts 10d6 sonic damage. A successful fortitude save with a DC of 30 will negate the stun as well as halve the damage and duration of the deafness. A creature that cannot hear the sound is not stunned or deafened but is still damaged. This sound cannot penetrate a silence spell. The save DC is charisma based.

Reality warp (Ex):
As a full round action, It Yeek'Kal Thet can secure control over a space in the shape of a cube 1000ft across for one minute. When this effect ends, It Yeek'Kal Thet becomes exhausted. This ability continues to function for its full duration even if It Yeek'Kal Thet loses consciousness or is forced into hibernation, but once it expires she cannot activate it again until she regains consciousness. This cube can be located wherever It Yeek'Kal Thet likes, as long as she is within it. The space loops on opposite sides, meaning exiting from the top causes one to enter from the bottom, leaving north causes one to enter south, etcetera. Any attempt to teleport out of the space automatically fails, but otherwise teleportation is allowed within the space. Once the space has been secured, It Yeek'Kal Thet may choose any one of the following effects once per round, as a free action, even if It Yeek'Kal Thet is unconscious or hibernating.

Slow Time, allowing It Yeek'Kal Thet to perform two rounds worth of actions in a single round.

Teleport, allowing It Yeek'Kal Thet to teleport any single creature other than herself to any other position in the space. This can be negated with a will save, DC 22. The save DC is intelligence based.

Death, killing a single target instantly if they cannot succeed a fortitude save with a DC of 22. The save DC is intelligence based.

Freeze, dealing 7d6 cold damage to all targets inside with no save. This does not affect targets the user doesn't want it to.

Confusion, confusing all characters inside the space for a single round if they cannot succeed a will save with a DC of 22. The save DC is intelligence based.

Stun, stunning all creatures inside the space for a single round if they cannot succeed a reflex save with a DC of 22. The save DC is intelligence based.

Sensory deprivation, blinding and deafening all creatures inside the space for a single round if they cannot succeed a reflex save with a DC of 22. The save DC is intelligence based.

Spells (Sp):
It Yeek'Kal Thet's powers can also imitate the spellcasting abilities of a mortal creature, allowing her to cast spells like a 30th level ranger.

Terraphobic (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet is afraid of being on land. After being on land for 1 round per point of intelligence, she becomes shaken. After being on land for 1 minute per point of intelligence, she becomes frightened and attempts to return to the water. After being on land for 1 hour per point of intelligence, she panics and will flee for water blindly and at all costs. If she is on land to retrieve one of her offspring, she uses her faith score instead.

That Which Can Eternal Lie (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet cannot be slain through any means. Instead, in situations where death would normally occur, she enters hibernation. While hibernating, she becomes extremely resilient to damage, and has her natural armour, spell resistance, damage reduction and energy resistance bonuses doubled from 40 to 80. While hibernating, her regeneration is reduced to 20 per day. She will exit hibernation only upon reaching full HP again.

No damage type inflicts lethal damage to her. She will still be rendered unconscious as normal by nonlethal damage, but will not be forced into hibernation until she has incurred nonlethal damage equal to twice her maximum hit points. She is immune to level drain, ability drain and ability damage. Death effects do not kill her, instead they inflict nonlethal damage equal to her full HP, and if disintegrated she will be forced into hibernation with nonlethal damage inflicted equal to twice her maximum HP in addition to pre-existing damage. A coup de grace only deals nonlethal damage equal to her max HP, and she cannot be killed by massive damage. Even Wish and Miracle cannot kill her, and instead inflict nonlethal damage equal to her full HP if she is already hibernating, and only if she is already hibernating. Attempts to trap It Yeek'Kal Thet's soul automatically fail, destroying the object attempting to trap her and, if it is triggered directly by a caster, trapping the caster instead.

Even while hibernating, she is not immobile. Instead, she crawls at 5ft/round towards water, usually choosing to remain still when observed, and once in water sinks to the bottom at 60ft/round.

Regeneration (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet regenerates 30 hit points per round when not hibernating.

Deep Retreat (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet takes no damage from deep water, darkvision up to 300ft and gets a +20 on listen checks in water.

Voices (Ex):
When hibernating, It Yeek'Kal Thet's psychic voice is projected from her body, manifesting as an incorporeal entity taking on a far smaller version of her likeness. Unable to maintain coherence, her voice fragments into 5 identical entities. The combined distance of these creatures from It Yeek'Kal Thet cannot exceed 120 miles, any attempt to go farther will result in all five of them being teleported back to It Yeek'Kal Thet. Upon It Yeek'Kal Thet's awakening, these voices vanish. See Voice of It Yeek'Kal Thet for more information.

Comprehend languages (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet has a telepathic insight that allows her to understand all languages.

Tongues (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet's telepathic speech can be understood by all, regardless of languages.

+20 Racial bonus to swim

*Note that the celestial creature type is intentionally overpowered as all hell. It's immune to poison, disease, mind-affecting magic, has only good saves and gets full BAB with 4 skill points per hit die. (Though that skill bonus is a complete waste on an idiot like It Yeek'Kal Thet.)

**Faith is Aelsif's equivalent to wisdom.

***These are the children she's made by impregnating sahuagin. They're basically sahuagin with some of It Yeek'Kal Thet's abilities. The 10d6 babies is her normal company, the 100d6 adults is for when she's going to war.

****ALL the special abilities of celestials are considered extraordinary effects, no matter what they are. This is to ensure they are immune to magic-denying effects, such as spell resistance and anti-magic field, as whatever the celestials use is not magic of any form we understand and these effects cannot function against their powers.


Also, here's a few related creatures. I needn't bother with a description for these. They look like her, but made of psychic sound.


Size/Type: Medium Celestial (Voice)
Hit dice: 10d8 (45hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 10ft/round, 60ft/round swim
Armor class: 18 (Base 10, -2 dex, +10 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 8
Damage reduction: 10/--
Energy resistance: 10 (All)
Spell resistance: 15 (0 level, +5 Fth, +10 extraordinary)
Base attack/Grapple: +10/+12
Attack: Tongue +12 melee (1d6+2 sonic)
Full attack: Tongue +12 melee (1d6+2 sonic) and 12 Tentacles +12 melee (1d6+2 sonic) and 2 claws +12 melee (1d10+2 sonic)
Space/reach: 5ft/5ft (10ft tentacles, 20ft tongue)
Special attacks: Messenger of worry, faithshaker, jet, improved grab, constrict, swallow whole, sail of the cosmos, cure light wounds, celestial freedom, voice of the cosmos, reality warp, spells
Special qualities: Disembodied voice, terraphobic, that which can eternal lie, regeneration 5, deep retreat
Saves: For +9, Ref +5, Will +12
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 6, Con 10, Int 2, Cha 10, Fth 20
Skills: Swim +13
Feats: Great fortitude, iron will, combat reflexes, athletic
Environment: Ocean
Organization: 1d6-1
Challenge rating: 10
Treasure: None
Advancement: N/A
Level adjustment: --

Messenger of worry (Ex):
The sound of It Yeek'Kal Thet's disembodied voice instills fear in the listener. The deep trauma inflicted causes the target to become shaken for the next 24 hours. This psychological effect impacts all non-celestial creatures with 10hd or less. A creature can only be subjected to this effect one time from the voices of It Yeek'Kal Thet, though this does not grant immunity to the voices of other great old ones. A will save with a DC of 20 negates the effect and prevents it from ever being applied. The save DC is faith based.

Faithshaker (Ex):
Any creature under the effect of Messenger of Worry has its faith damaged, taking a point of faith damage for each round they hear It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice. While being subjected to this effect, all divine casters have a 25% failure chance when casting divine spells. A will save with a DC of 20 negates this effect for one round.

Jet (Ex):
The voice of It Yeek'Kal Thet can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 360 feet, as long as it is in water. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting.

Improved grab (Ex):
If It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice hits with any natural weapon weapon, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Improved grab works only against opponents tiny size or smaller. It has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, she takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself.

Constrict (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet can deal 1d6+2 sonic damage to any opponent it is grappling.

Swallow whole (Ex):
If It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice begins its turn with an opponent held by its tongue, it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin her opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, dealing no damage. It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice can swallow any creature medium size or smaller, but small creatures require two consecutive successful attempts to swallow and other medium creatures require three. Targets in it's stomach are not harmed, as despite the voice attempting to eat it's made of psychic sound and it has no digestive tract. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while it is not. A swallowed creature cannot cut its way out, and has to escape the grapple. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, they escape the voice's mouth and are subject to an attack of opportunity from its tongue.

Sail of the Cosmos (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice can glide through invisible means. It takes no falling damage, can move 5 feet for every 1 foot it falls, at a speed of 60ft per round. It also gains a +10 bonus to jump checks while in water.

Cure Light Wounds(Ex):
Once per minute as a standard action, It Yeek'Kal Thet's Voice can exude positive energy as if casting the spell Cure Light Wounds with a caster level of 10.

Celestial Freedom (Ex):
Once daily as a standard action, It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice can destroy any and all magical imprisonment as if casting the spell Freedom. It can use this ability even when unconscious.

Voice of the Cosmos (Ex):
As a free action, It Yeek'Kal Thet's vpoce can channel itself to a practical end, and choose between the following passive effects each round. This ability still functions while it is unconscious, but not while hibernating.

Luring Hum, which compels targets that cannot see her to move in her direction, as if under the effects of suggestion. This effect can be negated with a will save, DC 15. The save DC is charisma based.

Wail of the Outer Seas, which gives opponents a -2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, AC, saving throws, ability checks and skill checks. This effect can be negated with a will save, DC 15. The save DC is charisma based.

Call of the Deep, which calls out for help. This effect only works while in the ocean. Using this effect for one minute will bring a single creature from the minor aquatic celestial table. The creature will arrive in 1d6 minutes.

Celestial Sound, which emits a burst of noise that stuns all creatures within 10ft for a single round and inflicts 1d8 sonic damage. A successful fortitude save with a DC of 15 will negate the stun. Creatures that do not hear the sound are not stunned but are still damaged. This sound cannot penetrate a silence spell. The save DC is charisma based.

Reality warp (Ex):
As a one minute action, It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice can secure control over a space in the shape of a cube 1000ft across for one minute. When this effect ends, It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice becomes exhausted. This ability continues to function for its full duration even if It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice loses consciousness or is forced into hibernation. This cube can be located wherever It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice likes, as long as it is within it. The space loops on opposite sides, meaning exiting from the top causes one to enter from the bottom, leaving north causes one to exit south, etcetera. Any attempt to teleport out of the space automatically fails, but otherwise teleportation is allowed within the space. Once the space has been secured, It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice may choose any one of the following effects once per round, as a free action even if unconscious or hibernating.

Slow Time, allowing It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice to perform two rounds worth of actions in a single round.

Teleport, allowing It Yeek'Kal Thet to teleport any single creature other than herself to any other position in the space. This can be negated with a will save, DC 11. The save DC is intelligence based.

Death, killing a single target instantly if they cannot succeed a fortitude save with a DC of 11. The save DC is intelligence based.

Freeze, dealing 1d6 cold damage to all targets inside with no save. This does not affect targets the user doesn't want it to.

Confusion, confusing all characters inside the space for a single round if they cannot succeed a will save with a DC of 11. The save DC is intelligence based.

Stun, stunning all creatures inside the space for a single round if they cannot succeed a reflex save with a DC of 11. The save DC is intelligence based.

Sensory deprivation, blinding and deafening all creatures inside the space for a single round if they cannot succeed a reflex save with a DC of 11. The save DC is intelligence based.

Spells (Sp):
A voice of It Yeek'Kal Thet's can also imitate the spellcasting abilities of a mortal creature, allowing it to cast spells like a 10th level ranger.

Disembodied voice (Ex):
As a creature of psychic voice, the Voice of It Yeek'Kal Thet is incorporeal. It is also fully invisible.

Terraphobic (Ex):
The voice of It Yeek'Kal Thet is afraid of being on land. After being on land for 1 round per point of intelligence, it becomes shaken. After being on land for 1 minute per point of intelligence, it becomes frightened and attempts to return to the water. After being on land for 1 hour per point of intelligence, it panics and will flee for water blindly and at all costs. If it is on land to retrieve one of It Yeek'Kal Thet's offspring, it uses its faith score instead.

That Which Can Eternal Lie (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice cannot be slain through any means. Instead, in situations where death would normally occur, it enters hibernation. While hibernating, it becomes extremely resilient to damage, and has its natural armour, spell resistance, damage reduction and energy resistance bonuses doubled from 10 to 20. While hibernating, its regeneration is reduced to 5 per day. It will exit hibernation only upon reaching full HP again.

No damage type inflicts lethal damage to it. It will still be rendered unconscious as normal by nonlethal damage, but will not be forced into hibernation until it has incurred nonlethal damage equal to twice its maximum hit points. It is immune to ability drain, any drain inflicted instead becomes temporary damage, which recovers one point each day with or without rest. Death effects do not kill it, instead they inflict nonlethal damage equal to its full HP, and if disintegrated it will be forced into hibernation with nonlethal damage inflicted equal to twice its maximum HP in addition to pre-existing damage. A coup de grace only deals nonlethal damage equal to its max HP, and it cannot be killed by massive damage. Even Wish and Miracle cannot kill it, and instead inflict nonlethal damage equal to her full HP if it is already hibernating, and only if it is already hibernating. Attempts to soul trap It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice automatically fail, destroying the object attempting to trap it and, if it is triggered directly by a caster, trapping the caster instead.

Even while hibernating, it is not immobile. Instead, it crawls at 5ft/round towards water, usually choosing to remain still when observed, and once in water sinks to the bottom at 60ft/round.

Regeneration (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice regenerates 10 hit points per round when not hibernating.

Deep Retreat (Ex):
It Yeek'Kal Thet's voice takes no damage from deep water.


And now for the single highest level character in the setting, guarding the Tomb of the Mother in the middle of the Otherlands, right on the western coastline of the western continent of Sohei.


Takamoto Tengu is the leader of the Sentinels of K'Macthia, a legion responsible for keeping K'Macthia sealed in the Tomb of the Mother. He was born in the otherlands, in a small estate on a hill near the border. When he was 7, his parents were killed by an oni*, but he managed to kill the creature with his father's sword. He refused to leave the estate, and lived there alone for seventeen years, maintaining it and fending off attacks until eventually the estate was completely destroyed by a tatarigami** and he had to leave. He journeyed deeper for a time, in hopes of finding the source of the spreading otherlands, now having decided to destroy it if he could. After twenty-eight years of travel, what he found was the Tomb of the Mother and the body of K'Macthia. Unable to destroy her, he joined the legion defending the Tomb, came under the mentorship of its leader and eventually replaced him.

Race: Human
Age: 344 (Young adult)***
Size: Medium
Height: 5' 8"
Weight: 155lbs
Skin color: Pale
Hair color: Black
Eye color: Brown
Class: Fighter 30
Str: 10
Dex: 36 (base 25)
Con: 21 (Base 10)
Int: 24 (Base 18)
Cha: 17 (base 12)
Fth: 10 (base 4)
HP: 315
AC: 34 (Base 10, dex +13, armor +11), touch 23, flat-footed 20
Spell resistance: 30 (Level +30)****
Damage reduction: 10/Slashing*****
Energy resistance: 7 (All)
Speed: 30ft/round
Saves: For +29, Ref +30, Will +17
Base attack /grapple: +30/30
Attack: Nodachi +52/47/42/37/32/27 melee (4d8+28 slash) or longbow +57/52/47/42/37/32 (2d10+10 pierce, 1d6 fire)******
Skills: Speak language (Soheigo) 2, literacy (Soheigo) 2, speak language (Manane) 2, literacy (Manane) 2, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Celestial) 10, Knowledge (History) 10, Knowledge (Local) 10, Knowledge (Nature) 10, Climb 15, Handle Animal 15, Intimidate 15, Swim 15
Feats: Weapon finesse, improved weapon finesse, edge alignment, improved critical, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon specialization (greatsword), greater weapon focus (greatsword), greater weapon specialization (greatsword), aimed attack, improved aimed attack, wounding strike, armor focus (clothing), armor specialization (clothing), greater armor focus (clothing), greater armor specialization (clothing), weapon focus (longbow), weapon specialization (longbow), greater weapon focus (longbow), greater weapon specialization (longbow), combat reflexes, combat expertise, point blank shot, far shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, great fortitude, lightning reflexes, iron will*******
Equipment: Celestial ghost touch nodachi +5, ghost touch longbow +5, celestial yukata & haori+5 of flexibility +6*******, celestial steel arrows of flaming burst +5 (60), amulet of health +6, headband of intellect +6, gloves of dexterity +6, periapt of faith +6, cloak of resistance +5
Encumbrance: 27lbs (light)

*Common Oni, CR 3, Oriental Adventures.

**This yokai is specifically a greater fire tatarigami, CR 15, is not featured in any sourcebook but appears in Aelsif. Tatarigami are corrupted kami, which are basically a more powerful (CR 9 or 13) version of the standard nature spirits (CR 1, 3 or 5). As a fire tatarigami, this spirit's powers are primarily related to fire. I'm certain I don't need to explain why he, way back when he was mid level and on his own, had to flee from a CR 15 fire spirit.

***Yeah, that's not normal at all. Blame little Kirei's age manipulation magic for that one.

****This is the main difference between wisdom and faith. Wisdom contributes to skills, faith adds to the system's standard spell resistance. Your SR does not block spells you don't want it to.

*****You may note my AC and DR armour thread talking about this, armour in Aelsif is vastly superior to armour in other D&D settings, and this is a big part of it. It's worth noting, however, that the DR wouldn't be nearly so high if his clothing wasn't made of celestial fabric and he didn't have armor specialization and greater armor specialization.

******Celestial weapons have huge damage dice, but otherwise this is just a ghost touch greatsword +5. The bow's immense damage is also coming from the use of celestial steel in its arrows, and the fact that both the bow and the arrows are +5.

*******Improved weapon finesse is weapon finesse but for any weapon. Edge alignment allows slash weapons do use dex for damage. Aimed attack allows a single attack to add int to attack on top of your normal ability bonus and the improved version also lets it add to damage. Wounding strike deals 2 con damage on a critical hit. Armor focus gives +2 AC, armor specialization gives +2 DR/ER, and I feel like I'm writing the whole damn sourcebook so I'm going to stop making notes now.


And now, another epic level Sentinel of K'Macthia, and the one who invented the age manipulation spell.


Just as a quick note to start with, it's actually Kawai, but she's been going by Kawaii for over 300 years so we're sticking to it. Kawaii Kirei has always been a talented sorceress. She cast her first spell, ray of frost, when she was barely two years old. As a child growing up on the border of the otherlands, she always found magic to be useful, for everything from simple chores to dealing with monsters, she found plenty of use for her spells. Her life remained relatively uneventful throughout her childhood, and when her father passed it was from natural causes when he was over a century old and Kirei was an adult, a rare enough thing in the Otherlands. That didn't stop Kirei from being devastated by his death. Determined to find a way to prevent that from happening to her mother, she began to research magic to manipulate the age of individuals, but her mother died less than a year after she started.

She finished it anyway, two years too late to save anyone she truly cared about, and now with only herself to work with she spent the following centuries changing ages like most people would change shoes as she continued to study magic abroad. Eventually, she decided to see what there was to learn in the Otherlands, and entered them to see what arcane secrets might lurk within. There, she met a young wizard about the age she had chosen to appear. She decided this was quite fortuitous, and after quite a bit of flirting and sharing information he told her he was going to Join the Sentinels of K'Macthia, and they went there together. It was another sixty years before the secret of her age manipulation got out, and since then she's been keeping the highest level sentinels exactly as young or old as they want. (Which is better than plan B: Turn into an infant and leave herself on somebody's doorstep.)

Eventually, she settled on her current form, and has been a small child for over three hundred years. She may defend it on practical grounds, but really she just likes being cute and all the added affection it gets her.

Race: Spirit folk (water)
Age: 755 (Child)
Size: Small
Height: 3' 4"
Weight: 35lbs
Skin: Pale
Hair: Blue
Eyes: Blue
Class: Sorcerer 25
Str: 4
Dex: 25 (Base 14)
Con: 23 (Base 12)
Int: 16
Cha: 39 (Base 28)
Fth: 4
HP: 212
AC: 25 (Base 10, +1 size, +7 dex, +7 armor)
Spell resistance: 22 (Level +25, Fth -3)
Damage reduction: 8/Slashing
Energy resistance: 5 (All)
Speed: 20ft/round
Saves: For +19, Ref +20, Will +16
Base attack /grapple: +12/5
Attack: Crossbow +30 ranged (2d8+10 pierce and 1d6 cold) or +15/10/5 melee (1d10+2 pierce/slash and 1d6 cold)
Skills: Speak language (Soheigo) 2, literacy (Soheigo) 2, speak language (Manane) 2, literacy (Manane) 2, speak language (It'haha) 2, literacy (It'haha) 2, speak language (Elvish) 2, literacy (Elvish) 2, speak language (Dwarven) 2, literacy (Dwarven) 2, Bluff 25, concentration 25, Knowledge (Arcana) 25, Spellcraft (25)
Feats: Maximise spell, quicken spell, repeat spell, silent spell, still spell, empower spell, energy substitution (cold), twin spell, repeat spell
Equipment: Small keen light crossbow +5, small celestial icy burst bolts +5 (30), small celestial icy burst dagger +5, celestial Yukata & Haori +5 of reinforcement +2, Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dexterity +6, cloak of charisma +6*, amulet of health +6.
Encumbrance: 6lbs (light)

*Okay, seriously, last note. The cloak here actually is her haori, not an actual cloak.

Also, do I need a full spell list for the little sorceress here? Or is this enough, given that she clearly loves ungodly amounts of ice spam? I mean, she has all the spam metamagic, and can make any energy cold at will (though obviously she wouldn't against It Yeek'Kal Thet) and she's a sorceress with 39 charisma, it should be clear her MO is to float high in the sky and unleash bullet hell like a Touhou character. (Who, not coincidentally, also all happen to look like little girls way younger than they actually are.)

zlefin
2017-07-24, 08:28 AM
It Yeek doesn't seem cr 30 to me; as a guess I'd peg it more around 23 CR. and at this board's medium or higher optimization levels, might be killed quite quickly and easily (slightly depending on what sources are allowed). at low optimization levels it should be fine though (most offline groups are at low optimization)
when hibernating, can it take actions other than the mild movement stuff?
I recommend making It completely immune to ability drain and damage, otherwise allips would keep it shut down too easily.

do you use the epic magic items rules? or any of the other epic rules (like for feats and such).

what's the wbl people will have post-20? (and is wbl altered in your campaign)

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 12:33 PM
It Yeek doesn't seem cr 30 to me; as a guess I'd peg it more around 23 CR. and at this board's medium or higher optimization levels, might be killed quite quickly and easily (slightly depending on what sources are allowed).

Do recall the lack of epic content, that beating her summons mutiple creatures able to heal her and that she's quite good at healing herself, too. But I can buff her pretty easy. Like say, reducing the cast time and cost on her reality warp and increasing the damage on her, I remind you, 15 melee attacks per round that also grapple for free.


at low optimization levels it should be fine though (most offline groups are at low optimization)
when hibernating, can it take actions other than the mild movement stuff?

No. But her voices appear and will likely dump healing on her.


I recommend making It completely immune to ability drain and damage, otherwise allips would keep it shut down too easily.

Aren't they subject to spell resistance?


do you use the epic magic items rules? or any of the other epic rules (like for feats and such).

Nope. I have a replacer, but it just lets your regular stuff from classes keep going. HD, BaB, saves, fighter bonus feats, rogue sneak attacks, that stuff.


what's the wbl people will have post-20? (and is wbl altered in your campaign)

I don't use WBL. Never have, never will, don't like the concept, especially don't like how people think it's a rule when it's a guideline.

khadgar567
2017-07-24, 12:44 PM
15 attacks are kinda low for kaiju sized treat pc gonna face. i mean i got couple of solid homebrews can either out dps it or pull two more attacks then it and its not using any cheesy build just one class all the way

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 12:50 PM
15 attacks are kinda low for kaiju sized treat pc gonna face. i mean i got couple of solid homebrews can either out dps it or pull two more attacks then it and its not using any cheesy build just one class all the way

But do all 15 grapple, usually? And does it also get a free magic effect each round, be able to up that to two, and use one of those to give itself two turns per round? Or have her reach, that's a big deal as well.

khadgar567
2017-07-24, 01:02 PM
But do all 15 grapple, usually? And does it also get a free magic effect each round, be able to up that to two, and use one of those to give itself two turns per round? Or have her reach, that's a big deal as well.
maybe cuz i dont stress test the class. As free magic it can pull some moves. and about use one turn to give itself two turns how about getting 4 turns in one turn and ow my math was wrong they can pull 34 attacks in single turn is it enough for you or am i try to start optimize a little( all this from base class by the way). my only problem may be her range but i know some one with good eye can do better

JNAProductions
2017-07-24, 01:16 PM
maybe cuz i dont stress test the class. As free magic it can pull some moves. and about use one turn to give itself two turns how about getting 4 turns in one turn and ow my math was wrong they can pull 34 attacks in single turn is it enough for you or am i try to start optimize a little( all this from base class by the way). my only problem may be her range but i know some one with good eye can do better

This is homebrew, yeah? So unless it's on the approved list for this DM, it's not particularly relevant.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 01:23 PM
maybe cuz i dont stress test the class. As free magic it can pull some moves. and about use one turn to give itself two turns how about getting 4 turns in one turn and ow my math was wrong they can pull 34 attacks in single turn is it enough for you or am i try to start optimize a little( all this from base class by the way). my only problem may be her range but i know some one with good eye can do better

Well, let's say she uses reality warper. For ten minutes, her typical turn will likely be THIRTY melee attacks plus two voice effects. If she chooses two uses of celestial shout, for instance, everybody within sixty feet gets hit twice with a one round stun, 4d6 round deafness and 10d6 sonic damage on top of being beaten down by her landing a lot of attacks at once. Reality Warper also does not expire if It Yeek'Kal Thet is defeated, meaning that even if she's unconscious or hibernating it will play out its duration, and she'll likely switch it over from extra turns to death or cold damage while her voices heal her. So even with her defeated, you've got a lot to ride out. You either have one person each round save or die, or all of you take 7d6 cold damage with no save. Or maybe, her voices will start healing her and she'll just stall with stuns, blindness or confusion until they bring her back.

khadgar567
2017-07-24, 01:44 PM
Well, let's say she uses reality warper. For ten minutes, her typical turn will likely be THIRTY melee attacks plus two voice effects. If she chooses two uses of celestial shout, for instance, everybody within sixty feet gets hit twice with a one round stun, 4d6 round deafness and 10d6 sonic damage on top of being beaten down by her landing a lot of attacks at once. Reality Warper also does not expire if It Yeek'Kal Thet is defeated, meaning that even if she's unconscious or hibernating it will play out its duration, and she'll likely switch it over from extra turns to death or cold damage while her voices heal her.
first yep its homebrew and are we start the encounter in regular distance like lets say 100 feet between my guy vs yeek since my class gives me two rolls in initative i might get the first turn and thanks to 1st and 2nd level abilities distance its not my problem and at level 15 that damage not my problem too as i can out heal it during my offensive burst but i cant sustain the burst to long as end of the turn my class gets exhausted.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 02:24 PM
first yep its homebrew and are we start the encounter in regular distance like lets say 100 feet between my guy vs yeek since my class gives me two rolls in initative i might get the first turn and thanks to 1st and 2nd level abilities distance its not my problem and at level 15 that damage not my problem too as i can out heal it during my offensive burst but i cant sustain the burst to long as end of the turn my class gets exhausted.

Yes, and if you came in with a class that had d100 hit dice, +9001 attack and damage, move speed of 5,901,600,000ft/round, DR 1000/level and had a theme song by Jam Project, it would also win. Nobody cares how overpowered your homebrewed character class is.

zlefin
2017-07-24, 05:46 PM
Do recall the lack of epic content, that beating her summons mutiple creatures able to heal her and that she's quite good at healing herself, too. But I can buff her pretty easy. Like say, reducing the cast time and cost on her reality warp and increasing the damage on her, I remind you, 15 melee attacks per round that also grapple for free.

Aren't they subject to spell resistance?

I don't use WBL. Never have, never will, don't like the concept, especially don't like how people think it's a rule when it's a guideline.

even without epic content, at this board medium optimization levels one rounding, or even one-shotting her wouldn't be hard at lvl 30. (depending somewhat on sources allowed).
and wiping out mooks woulnd't be that hard either, the mooks woulnd't really be a threat except by potentially healing her enough that she can act again.
but if your group is typical offline standards it'll probably be fine.

I don't see anything in the allip description about a save or spell resistance.
regardless of whether you use wbl per se, the question remains of just how much wealth they'll have at that point, as differing wealth levels affect how awesome the pc's gear is, and hence how challenging the encounter will be.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 06:01 PM
even without epic content, at this board medium optimization levels one rounding, or even one-shotting her wouldn't be hard at lvl 30. (depending somewhat on sources allowed).

Care to explain what mega-powers you are using that are dealing 590 damage in a single hit?

zlefin
2017-07-24, 06:08 PM
Care to explain what mega-powers you are using that are dealing 590 damage in a single hit?

depends on what sources you allow, which is why I kept asking what sources you're using; but uberchargers and mailman builds can both put out that much damage quite easily in one round (i'm counting it as a one-shot if it's taken out in a single player's turn's actions). are you familiar with those builds?

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 06:13 PM
depends on what sources you allow, which is why I kept asking what sources you're using; but uberchargers and mailman builds can both put out that much damage quite easily in one round (i'm counting it as a one-shot if it's taken out in a single player's turn's actions). are you familiar with those builds?

Of course not. My players aren't mega munchkins. They don't comb ninety different sourcebooks to throw together combinations of different abilities that were never intended to be used together, shouldn't stack and don't belong in the same setting and call it a build, then mega instagib everything and complain the game is too easy. My players actually focus on, you know, roleplaying. They try to have fun, too.

Seriously, what in the hell is the point of a game where your players can instantly kill anything that exists, has ever existed and ever will exist? "Everybody ready to start? Okay? You ****ing win. Your characters kill all of the everything, now have a bijillitillion gold and infinite whores. Don't ask where the whores came from if everything is dead. Maybe the whores are dead too, then you don't need to pay them, because gods forbid you ever spend one measely copper from your inexaustible supply of money, right? Roll a quadrillion times on the ultimate mega epic loot table of whatever the hell you want. I'll just be over here blowing my ****ing brains out."

khadgar567
2017-07-24, 11:12 PM
Yes, and if you came in with a class that had d100 hit dice, +9001 attack and damage, move speed of 5,901,600,000ft/round, DR 1000/level and had a theme song by Jam Project, it would also win. Nobody cares how overpowered your homebrewed character class is.
I am offended by your claim mosquito chan. None of my classes are broken like that. As for what the class have just d8 hit dice and medium bab along with fluff abilities.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 11:28 PM
I am offended by your claim mosquito chan. None of my classes are broken like that. As for what the class have just d8 hit dice and medium bab along with fluff abilities.

You just said you could outheal 26d10+8d8+20d6+450, since increased to 52d8+8d12+20d6+450. Either your build is broken, or you didn't realize just how powerful she was. Which is it?

khadgar567
2017-07-24, 11:40 PM
You just said you could outheal 26d10+8d8+20d6+450. Your build is broken.
Around level 15 class can pull 4 attacks as standart action and their guardian spirit adds another 4 attacks( one spirit attack per normal attack), one of the talents allow me to take 4 full turns in single turn by exausting my self so its 32 attacks in 6 seconds. Another talent allows me to get half of my damage as healing and around the 15 level mark main class future of class deals 14d6 per attack so its 448d6 damage in 6 second and half of it returns as health so i think i can survive your attack and get loot of temp hp to boot so your thoughts on class

Avianmosquito
2017-07-24, 11:47 PM
Around level 15 class can pull 4 attacks as standart action and their guardian spirit adds another 4 attacks( one spirit attack per normal attack), one of the talents allow me to take 4 full turns in single turn by exausting my self so its 32 attacks in 6 seconds. Another talent allows me to get half of my damage as healing and around the 15 level mark main class future of class deals 14d6 per attack so its 448d6 damage in 6 second and half of it returns as health so i think i can survive your attack and get loot of temp hp to boot so your thoughts on class

1. It's blatantly a beyond broken ultra mega god class.

2. How much you can heal is irrelevant if she kills you in one round. She dealt 699 as the average of her dice when you said that. She deals 806 as the average of her current dice.

3. This entire fight is now just initiative, unless you have more hyper god mode powers. Do you have like 30d12+600 health, too?

4. Oh, and she also has DR 20. Your 32 attacks each do 20 less damage. Does that make this build any less broken? No. But it does spite your maximum overspam just a little.

khadgar567
2017-07-25, 12:04 AM
1. It's blatantly a beyond broken ultra mega god class.

2. How much you can heal is irrelevant if she kills you in one round. She dealt 699 as the average of her dice when you said that. She deals 806 as the average of her current dice.

3. This entire fight is now just initiative, unless you have more hyper god mode powers. Do you have like 30d12+600 health, too?

4. Oh, and she also has DR 20. Your 32 attacks each do 20 less damage. Does that make this build any less broken? No. But it does spite your maximum overspam just a little.
you know actually i am still working on class right know. Dr 20 may be problem but i think i can pull some thing for it( so thanks for reminding). As class being balanced i thing yes its balanced enough to hold its own if you want to help i can open a threat for it?

Avianmosquito
2017-07-25, 12:07 AM
you know actually i am still working on class right know. Dr 20 may be problem but i think i can pull some thing for it( so thanks for reminding). As class being balanced i thing yes its balanced enough to hold its own if you want to help i can open a threat for it?

Your class is ungodly overpowered. It will kill anything in one round, the enormous DR I gave the big gal specifically to deal with spam attacks doesn't even cut its damage in half. You need to step down its damage per hit.

khadgar567
2017-07-25, 12:13 AM
Your class is ungodly overpowered. It will kill anything in one round, the enormous DR I gave the big gal specifically to deal with spam attacks doesn't even cut its damage in half. You need to step down its damage per hit.
Correction can kill if wants if dont wants he can fight like regular melee person.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-25, 12:24 AM
Correction can kill if wants if dont wants he can fight like regular melee person.

You still need to drop the damage per hit, at the very, VERY least.

khadgar567
2017-07-25, 12:36 AM
You still need to drop the damage per hit, at the very, VERY least.
Its not the classes constant damage think it as rage you toggle it gain huge damage then you gonna need to wait equal amount of time to re use it.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-25, 12:38 AM
Its not the classes constant damage think it as rage you toggle it gain huge damage then you gonna need to wait equal amount of time to re use it.

That doesn't matter when you deal 1,568 damage on the first round. The DM is going to either just have a giant meteor fall on you like you deserve or say "bollocks to it" and you just win because there's no point playing with you.

khadgar567
2017-07-25, 12:45 AM
That doesn't matter when you deal 1,568 damage on the first round. The DM is going to either just have a giant meteor fall on you like you deserve or say "bollocks to it" and you just win because there's no point playing with you.
okay i halfed that abilities damage and need help to block that combo in talents descripton

Avianmosquito
2017-07-25, 12:59 AM
okay i halfed that abilities damage and need help to block that combo in talents descripton

Take it to its own thread and get it out of mine.

Douglas
2017-07-25, 02:52 AM
I think the hostility's ramping up a bit high here, but I must agree that what someone else's homebrew class can do is of no relevance at all to the balance of this homebrew's monsters. What would be relevant is a 100% non-homebrew build that approximately matches the level of optimization Avianmosquito is showing in his NPCs, which I'm assuming is about the same as what his players are likely to use.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-25, 03:10 AM
I think the hostility's ramping up a bit high here, but I must agree that what someone else's homebrew class can do is of no relevance at all to the balance of this homebrew's monsters. What would be relevant is a 100% non-homebrew build that approximately matches the level of optimization Avianmosquito is showing in his NPCs, which I'm assuming is about the same as what his players are likely to use.

Well, I emphasize the "C", so my NPCs tend not to be quite as optimized as the PCs I deal with, but I do prefer players who actually roleplay instead of munchkins.

I mean, I've got a fighter who doesn't use armour because he grew up fighting without it and a sorceress who has been barely more than a toddler for 300 years because she likes hugs. Clearly, these two could be optimized better, especially that fighter.

Samot079
2017-07-25, 10:36 AM
Going from the other posts it seems like mechanically your creatures are not kill-able via damage and are basically impossible to pin down via movement shenanigans. I can't help feel that it may be unnecessarily complicated to devise a way to player-proof it if your regular players care more about the rp side of things than the rules end of the spectrum.
In answer to your request I did not see disintegrate effects mentioned yet unless covered under the post regarding flesh to stone and similar spells, had you considered something similar to a lich's phylactery for them? Or even just have their 'defeated' in combat ability to just be a dm fiat dis-incorporate that removes it from harm/location until its regeneration restores it? I've not actively tried to player-proof something so I apologize if my thoughts are not as catch all as others but my players have always seemed to accept that if something is not meant to be defeated just driven off they would rather it just happen then still be able to interact with it even though it does little to nothing.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-26, 04:31 AM
Going from the other posts it seems like mechanically your creatures are not kill-able via damage and are basically impossible to pin down via movement shenanigans. I can't help feel that it may be unnecessarily complicated to devise a way to player-proof it if your regular players care more about the rp side of things than the rules end of the spectrum.

I think I've come around on this one.


In answer to your request I did not see disintegrate effects mentioned yet unless covered under the post regarding flesh to stone and similar spells,

Actually, it's both mentioned and is the only spell mentioned by name.


had you considered something similar to a lich's phylactery for them?

That's a vulnerability.


Or even just have their 'defeated' in combat ability to just be a dm fiat dis-incorporate that removes it from harm/location until its regeneration restores it?

This would create some noteworthy issues.


I've not actively tried to player-proof something so I apologize if my thoughts are not as catch all as others but my players have always seemed to accept that if something is not meant to be defeated just driven off they would rather it just happen then still be able to interact with it even though it does little to nothing.

Yeah, but this is D&D, where people routinely kill gods just to show off how broken their build is.

rel
2017-07-27, 11:31 PM
The first creature you posted does not appear to be proof against level drain or ability damage.

When supplied by a monster these abilities are Su attacks. You get no save and no SR. Sometimes they even target touch AC. I notice your monster has a touch AC of 3 (presumably doubling to 6 once the initial beating concludes).

Also I notice the ability 'that which can eternal lie' is itself an Ex. Serpent kingdoms (the source of some of the finest cheese in 3.5 after the PHB) provides the cunning wizard with an answer; Trait Removal.

This handy 5th level spell requires a fort save and SR so reliably dropping it on even a sleeping Cthulu requires some setup however it temporarily removes a supernatural or extraordinary ability of your choice from the target creature.

The process would be:
1) beat the creature into hibernation.
2) remove its Ex can't kill me power.
3) kill it for real.

Finally (and I would consider this last one a feature not a bug. Although I tend to think of all the weak points as features not bugs) the creature could be subjected via a protracted beating to an obnoxious amount of damage making it's unassisted return occur on a 'the stars are right' type of timescale.

Breaching DR is fairly trivial at high levels as is targetting touch AC at which point you can deal pretty close to max damage per round. At high levels this damage can easily be in the hundreds. Even a very conservative estimate of an entire parties damage output being only 200 damage per round still leaves you with 120000 damage per hour. If the party manage to corner The King in Yellow they could easily deliver enough damage to keep him sleeping for centuries.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-27, 11:53 PM
The first creature you posted does not appear to be proof against level drain or ability damage.

I said I'd add it but never did, sorry. I'll finally do that now.


When supplied by a monster these abilities are Su attacks. You get no save and no SR. Sometimes they even target touch AC. I notice your monster has a touch AC of 3 (presumably doubling to 6 once the initial beating concludes).

No, its only the natural armor, not its full AC, that doubles. So she just gains another 20 AC, SR, DR and SR when out cold.


Also I notice the ability 'that which can eternal lie' is itself an Ex. Serpent kingdoms (the source of some of the finest cheese in 3.5 after the PHB) provides the cunning wizard with an answer; Trait Removal.

This handy 5th level spell requires a fort save and SR so reliably dropping it on even a sleeping Cthulu requires some setup however it temporarily removes a supernatural or extraordinary ability of your choice from the target creature.

The process would be:
1) beat the creature into hibernation.
2) remove its Ex can't kill me power.
3) kill it for real.

Good thing I have never heard of and therefore wouldn't allow this splat.


Finally (and I would consider this last one a feature not a bug. Although I tend to think of all the weak points as features not bugs) the creature could be subjected via a protracted beating to an obnoxious amount of damage making it's unassisted return occur on a 'the stars are right' type of timescale.

Breaching DR is fairly trivial at high levels as is targetting touch AC at which point you can deal pretty close to max damage per round. At high levels this damage can easily be in the hundreds. Even a very conservative estimate of an entire parties damage output being only 200 damage per round still leaves you with 120000 damage per hour. If the party manage to corner The King in Yellow they could easily deliver enough damage to keep him sleeping for centuries.

You mean, assuming nothing comes along to start healing it to speed the process, especially since all four of them have voices that can heal? But yes, this is a feature. And it's also why they all escape when defeated, you have a couple rounds, maybe a minute or two, to inflict as much damage as you can.

Douglas
2017-07-28, 09:44 PM
Good thing I have never heard of and therefore wouldn't allow this splat.
Serpent Kingdoms is infamous in optimization discussion groups for containing the critical centerpiece of literally the most powerful character build ever devised in D&D 3.5, Pun-pun the kobold who can make himself practically omnipotent at level 1. I can explain some of the details if you're curious, but I expect the only thing relevant to your group is "Serpent Kingdoms contains some ridiculously broken stuff."

I'll take a look at the stats you've posted tomorrow.

javcs
2017-07-29, 04:26 AM
DR 20 is not particularly high.
SR 35 is low, especially for a CR 30 entity. Any caster worthy of the name will not find SR 35 particularly challenging to overcome.


I see nothing to indicate that something like Trap the Soul would not suffice. Looks like Imprisonment would also work.
It'd be a custom beyond 9th spell, but a derivation/development/advancement of Maze that did not have the 10 minute time limit would also presumably work. Or perhaps a custom item.



Also, presuming the party can do sufficient damage to beat the entity into unconsciousness and keep it unconscious, it may take a while, but sufficient time and castings will result in overcoming SR and a failed save, assuming that it's possible to overcome SR at all.

You may or may not want to add some form of "does not auto-fail saves on natural 1s".



Just swipe from Deities and Demigods, really. The Rejuvenation SDA, or a derivation thereof, with some means to account for other forms of imprisonment/containment.


Just a rough spitballing, but just say "anything that would kill or destroy them, does not kill or destroy them and instead incapacitates them", and for the various means of containment/imprisonment say that anything that would contain or imprison them indefinitely, instead grants them a new save against the containing or imprisoning effect after some (lengthy) period of time that repeats or under certain specific cosmological/celestial circumstances (ie, eclipses, planetary alignments, cometary orbits, etc), but it's possible to perform rituals/whatever to either delay/lengthen the interval (if it's not tied to some specific circumstances) and/or increase the save DC.

Ultimately, for containment/imprisonment, it's the case of at time of "plot" there's an escape attempt. The Party can attempt to forestall the escape attempt, and if they fail or are too late, perhaps there's a window of time after the escape where the escapee is weakened, and thus is easier to contain/imprison again.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-29, 04:47 AM
DR 20 is not particularly high.
SR 35 is low, especially for a CR 30 entity. Any caster worthy of the name will not find SR 35 particularly challenging to overcome.

Yes, I originally had the values much higher, but dialed it back when I realised these creatures were incapable of damaging eachother. I guess I can live with them not being able to hurt eachother if need be, so I'll put the values back where they were.

EDIT:
It's done. Now fights between great old ones might as well be pillow fights, but there you go. Maybe It Yeek'Kal Thet and Shep just drag Nya-Za'Thoth back to her crater instead of beating her down, since they now can't actually hurt her.


I see nothing to indicate that something like Trap the Soul would not suffice.

Yes, because I forgot about that little game breaker. I'll add a note.


Looks like Imprisonment would also work.

The note will also address this.


It'd be a custom beyond 9th spell, but a derivation/development/advancement of Maze that did not have the 10 minute time limit would also presumably work. Or perhaps a custom item.

This too. Fun part is, all of these can be squashed with one additional ability. Freedom, at will.

javcs
2017-07-29, 05:49 AM
Yes, the damage per attack is also low.

However, fights between them, assuming they all have roughly equivalent AC, DR, and attack profiles, would be attack roll spamfests, hunting for the critical hits, since their AC has also gone up. Although ... it's distinctly possible that since damage is only possibly on a critical hit, meaning a natural 20 and an automatic hit, they might also just dump all or most of their BAB into Power Attack, since it'd only matter for the confirmation roll, but the damage bonus from using all their BAB for Power Attack is larger than the increase from the x2 critical multiplier.

That need for attack roll spamming doubtlessly contributes to why it's two of them beating up a third and consistently winning.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-29, 06:07 AM
Yes, the damage per attack is also low.

Hers is, the others vary. It Yeek'Kal Thet is the queen of gluttony, she gets 15 free attempts to grapple each round in her never-ending quest to stuff her face. The others all have fewer limbs and higher damage. Except Shep, whose melee is pathetic, but she can fly and spam lightning that skips SR.


That need for attack roll spamming doubtlessly contributes to why it's two of them beating up a third and consistently winning.

Having a 2v1 also helps. So does Nya-Za'thoth lacking good range and Shep being a flyer.

Douglas
2017-07-29, 04:12 PM
If you want them to all have super high DR but still all be able to hurt each other with attacks, you could make up a new DR-penetrating quality, I'll call it Celestial, and change it from DR/- to DR/Celestial while make all their attacks Celestial for DR purposes. Or just give them all the ability to ignore all DR, even DR/-, which would also make them more dangerous to other things in combat.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-29, 04:50 PM
If you want them to all have super high DR but still all be able to hurt each other with attacks, you could make up a new DR-penetrating quality, I'll call it Celestial, and change it from DR/- to DR/Celestial while make all their attacks Celestial for DR purposes. Or just give them all the ability to ignore all DR, even DR/-, which would also make them more dangerous to other things in combat.

Well, looking at it right now I don't think that's necessary. A lot of their special abilities can hurt eachother, even though only Nya-Za'Thoth has the striking power to deal damage through their DR with attacks. (And Nya-Za'Thoth is a glass cannon.) Their reality warper abilities in particular can effectively get a no-SR slay living for free each round, and Shep's lightning is pretty beastly (twice per round, 30d6, no SR, reflex half, DC 26, OR four times for 15d6 using attack rolls at +23, still no SR), so much so that even cut in half by a save her lightning will usually inflict a little damage.

Besides, they already disregard SR with all their attacks that aren't from their chosen spell list. Giving them the ability to ignore DR as well seems a bit excessive.

Still, waiting for your verdict. I keep being told that she isn't strong enough for CR 30.

Douglas
2017-07-30, 11:54 PM
Ok, analysis time:

The Messenger of Fear ability means that anyone who isn't immune to fear and can't make a DC 40 will save is pretty much useless even for facing her lower level minions. So, that "literal legion of mid-level soldiers" almost has to have some way of making the entire legion immune to fear. There's only one way I know of to give fear immunity on a massive scale for (relatively) little effort, and it's rather specific - the 9th level Courage Domain spell, Greater Cloak of Bravery, in Spell Compendium. It's not on any non-domain class spell list, it's only in the one domain, and it's 9th level. Oh, and it requires arranging for the entire legion to have line of sight to the caster at all times during battle. So, that option's probably not available, which leaves only more expensive options. Feeding absolutely everyone a Heroes' Feast every day, or buying a Banner of the Storm's Eye (Magic Item Compendium, costs 15000 gp) for every 20' radius section of the battle line, etc. So, you have successfully made it expensive to make the legion useful. Unless "everyone takes a 3 level dip in paladin" is an option, which I doubt.

Faithshatter I regard as mostly fluff with little in-combat relevance. In particular for the Tomb of the Mother, everyone there has to be immune to Messenger of Fear already to be of any use, so Faithshatter will never come into play there.

Jet makes her difficult to keep pace with in the water, but doesn't do much for fighting ability.

Improved Grab, Constrict, and Swallow Whole mean anyone in reach who gets her attention and doesn't have Freedom of Movement or another way to resist/escape grappling is in for a Very Bad Day. This mostly means the legion should stay away and let the high and epic level folks handle fighting the actual Great Old One - Freedom of Movement is a 4th level cleric spell in the PHB, and there's a ring that gives it permanently for 40000 gp in the DMG, a well prepared high level party should easily have it on everyone.

Sail of the Cosmos and Raise Dead aren't really combat relevant.

Miracle, if you're allowing the "very powerful request" usage of it, is a game-changer. Even going strictly with the three example uses, and removing the first one because raising the dead is not normally possible in your setting, this might, depending on interpretation, allow a practically guaranteed two-round rescue of K'Macthia. Use it once to move It Yeek'Kal Thet and allies to inside the Tomb of the Mother, right next to K'Macthia, use it again to move K'Macthia (and maybe It Yeek'Kal Thet too) out. The interpretation is in whether the "through planar barriers" clause means it can ignore spells that block teleportation. Because any sensible high level fortified defense in a world with teleportation magic is going to include Forbiddance or Dimensional Lock or something similar. You can fall back on "she's too stupid to think of it" even if you rule that it would work, but still.

Aura of Forbiddance is fairly minor in high level combat. The damage isn't very meaningful to high or epic level characters, though the block against teleporting can be a nuisance.

Mass Heal is very nearly a straight-up heal-to-full for her. If her other defenses can keep the rate she takes damage low, this could be a big deal. It really depends on the other defenses, though.

Celestial Freedom just negates a few instant win tricks. You'll need to make the phrasing broader than "even when unconscious", though. For one thing, Imprisonment puts the victim in temporal stasis. How about this: "She can use this ability regardless of any condition or effect that might normally prevent it, even when unable to take other standard actions for any reason."

Storm of Vengeance is really kinda weak against high level opponents. It's useful mostly for hurting very large groups of low level enemies.

Sacred Blood... question, does the faith increase stay when the int/cha drain is healed? I'm seeings lots of abuse potential here. Ignoring that, this is something that her opponents may need to prepare for, but isn't too hard to handle. Level 4 cleric/druid spell Sheltered Vitality from Spell Compendium gives outright immunity, most characters that would be making melee attacks powerful enough to get through her DR won't care much about int or cha, and the save DCs aren't too outlandishly high.

Voice of the Cosmos seems like another anti-huge-groups-of-low-levels ability for the most part. It being a free action makes it still useful against high level enemies, though, and Celestial Shout could be significant against a group not prepared for it.

Reality Warp is powerful. A lot of the options are negated by saves with DCs too low to be a serious problem for high or epic level enemies, but taking 2 rounds of actions in one round is always powerful. Also note that fatigue is cured, along with a lot of other things, by Mass Heal, so the post-use fatigue is a very short term problem.

Spells would be impressively powerful, except for it being as a ranger. The ranger spell list isn't very powerful, stopping at 4th level spells and not getting many good spells even of that level.

Now, stats and immunities...

Stats-wise, by the standards of optimization commonly discussed on these forums, these stats are pretty weak. Ask on the 3.5e forum for help building a level 30 character, and whatever random people decide to say something will likely lead you to something that could tear this thing apart with ease. I expect I could do it myself pretty easily, even if you heavily restrict what books I'm allowed to use.

By the standard of Takamoto Tengu, this is quite strong. In melee, he'll hit a lot but his average damage just barely matches her DR. Without help, he'd never outpace her regeneration, and what's listed for him here doesn't include any source of the immunity/resistance stuff I mentioned above. Kawaii Kirei, meanwhile, faces major problems with the SR and energy resistance. If she's got access to the Orb spells from Spell Compendium, that would drastically improve her chances by giving her a damage spell that ignores SR, and she's got the metamagic to boost the damage well above 40. Otherwise... How useful she is against It Yeek'Kal Thet depends heavily on her spell list, and in particular whether she has any way to deal with SR 55. And if either of them gets in reach, those 15 attacks per round will tear through their hp very quickly.

For immunities, you've covered most of the important ones. There are some major vulnerabilities still, though. It Yeek'Kal Thet has no way to deal with a flying enemy who attacks from range and is prepared with defensive buffs against fear and the various options for Reality Warp. Unless you count Miracle, I suppose. You're far from the first to miss this one, the classic "ultimate" monster the Tarrasque also can't deal with flyers. Options for fixing this pretty much boil down to: 1) give her a potent ranged attack, 2) give her flight or something functionally equivalent, or 3) give her a way to remove flight from her enemies. Or you could just accept this as a weakness of being out of her home environment, since when fighting underwater her swim speed is functionally equivalent to flight.

The other big one is illusions. A few cleverly chosen Major Image spells, available to a mere 5th level wizard, could mislead her about what's going on quite thoroughly. A clever high level illusionist could manipulate her with ease, leading her to go wherever he wants, and even do things of his choosing as long as he can think of a way to disguise them as things It Yeek'Kal Thet would want to do. I suggest giving her True Seeing, perhaps fluffed as Celestials perceiving reality in a different way from everyone else, just as their special abilities aren't magic by anyone else's definition. And specify that it has unlimited range, unlike the True Seeing spell which only works out to 120 feet.

Summary: For the level of optimization the NPC builds you've posted suggest, even allowing for players being just a bit above them, It Yeek'Kal Thet is, with just a few tweaks, a major combat threat to a level 30 party. Assuming Shep is similarly powerful and they both bring multiple CR 20 helpers plus an assorted army of CR 15 and below, and I could see it taking the forces you described to stop it. For maximum plausibility, even the bottom tier low level monsters should be able to get K'Macthia out if they just get enough of them to her; otherwise, it could end up as the epic party squaring off with the Great Old Ones while the low level monsters are ignored and run amok, and then when the Great Old Ones retreat the epic party mows down the low level monsters as cleanup duty with no need for a legion of mid level soldiers. With, say, 20 to 50 of the weak monsters being able to free K'Macthia if left alone, someone else needs to deal with them while the epic party is busy.

Now, for the "getting away to come back later" part. The Voices are essentially irrelevant. Anyone who manages to beat It Yeek'Kal Thet herself into hibernation will do the same to the Voices with trivial ease. That leaves her own capabilities while hibernating, and potential rescue by allies.

While hibernating, It Yeek'Kal Thet can... crawl 5 feet/round, cast Freedom, and be very hard to hurt. That's not much, unless you take a very liberal interpretation of what Freedom can deal with. If there's a great big wall in front of her blocking her path, can Freedom break a hole in it for her? Does it matter if the wall forms a large circle to keep her contained? Assuming you're giving that ability to all four of them, I don't think there's any reasonable way to interpret it that would break the wall without also making it able to break the Tomb of the Mother for K'Macthia.

Summary: As it stands, if someone beats It Yeek'Kal Thet into hibernation while she's on land, all it will take to lock her up like K'Macthia is some castings of Wall of Stone and dealing with rescue attempts by her allies. Keeping the nonlethal damage high with the low regen rate is just a matter of pounding away with something big enough to do over 80 damage on a crit long enough to get some pairs of consecutive natural 20s (1 to hit, the other to confirm the crit). You could even build a vehicle to transport her to the Tomb of the Mother so you wouldn't need to establish a second superfortress.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-31, 12:58 AM
Ok, analysis time:

The Messenger of Fear ability means that anyone who isn't immune to fear and can't make a DC 40 will save is pretty much useless even for facing her lower level minions. So, that "literal legion of mid-level soldiers" almost has to have some way of making the entire legion immune to fear. There's only one way I know of to give fear immunity on a massive scale for (relatively) little effort, and it's rather specific - the 9th level Courage Domain spell, Greater Cloak of Bravery, in Spell Compendium. It's not on any non-domain class spell list, it's only in the one domain, and it's 9th level. Oh, and it requires arranging for the entire legion to have line of sight to the caster at all times during battle. So, that option's probably not available, which leaves only more expensive options. Feeding absolutely everyone a Heroes' Feast every day, or buying a Banner of the Storm's Eye (Magic Item Compendium, costs 15000 gp) for every 20' radius section of the battle line, etc. So, you have successfully made it expensive to make the legion useful. Unless "everyone takes a 3 level dip in paladin" is an option, which I doubt.

Right, and that's one of the biggest things about great old ones. The Messenger of Fear ability isn't half as powerful as say, Nya-Za'Thoth's Vision of Intent (basically everybody who sees her the first time gets hit with Weird), but it is one of their more powerful abilities and it's completely passive.


Faithshatter I regard as mostly fluff with little in-combat relevance. In particular for the Tomb of the Mother, everyone there has to be immune to Messenger of Fear already to be of any use, so Faithshatter will never come into play there.

Faithshatter is primarily for roleplay, yes. This is intended as a lingering effect of having seen them for player characters, who should flee the creature. It compliments the lingering "shaken" status nicely, when well played.


Jet makes her difficult to keep pace with in the water, but doesn't do much for fighting ability.

Unless you're in the water, I'd think. But, since the Tomb of K'Macthia is near the coast, if she can retreat she can get way the hell out there until her HP is full. The problem is she has to actually retreat.


Improved Grab, Constrict, and Swallow Whole mean anyone in reach who gets her attention and doesn't have Freedom of Movement or another way to resist/escape grappling is in for a Very Bad Day. This mostly means the legion should stay away and let the high and epic level folks handle fighting the actual Great Old One - Freedom of Movement is a 4th level cleric spell in the PHB, and there's a ring that gives it permanently for 40000 gp in the DMG, a well prepared high level party should easily have it on everyone.

Right. The high-level folks repel the great old ones, and the lower-level folks provide artillery support as needed and mostly fight off the hoard.


Sail of the Cosmos and Raise Dead aren't really combat relevant.

She can leap the exterior wall, that seems relevant.


Miracle, if you're allowing the "very powerful request" usage of it, is a game-changer. Even going strictly with the three example uses, and removing the first one because raising the dead is not normally possible in your setting, this might, depending on interpretation, allow a practically guaranteed two-round rescue of K'Macthia. Use it once to move It Yeek'Kal Thet and allies to inside the Tomb of the Mother, right next to K'Macthia, use it again to move K'Macthia (and maybe It Yeek'Kal Thet too) out. The interpretation is in whether the "through planar barriers" clause means it can ignore spells that block teleportation. Because any sensible high level fortified defense in a world with teleportation magic is going to include Forbiddance or Dimensional Lock or something similar. You can fall back on "she's too stupid to think of it" even if you rule that it would work, but still.

While she is an idiot, the answer is much simpler: Wish. It has the ability to make a stronger request, right? Their stronger request is to bolster Forbiddance to disallow Miracle to penetrate it. Wish is 99% DM fiat anyway, but it works.


Aura of Forbiddance is fairly minor in high level combat. The damage isn't very meaningful to high or epic level characters, though the block against teleporting can be a nuisance.

Yeah, it's just meant to prevent people from teleporting, she's so well proofed against mooks she doesn't need anything more.


Mass Heal is very nearly a straight-up heal-to-full for her. If her other defenses can keep the rate she takes damage low, this could be a big deal. It really depends on the other defenses, though.

Don't forget she can heal her allies with Mass Heal as well.


Celestial Freedom just negates a few instant win tricks. You'll need to make the phrasing broader than "even when unconscious", though. For one thing, Imprisonment puts the victim in temporal stasis. How about this: "She can use this ability regardless of any condition or effect that might normally prevent it, even when unable to take other standard actions for any reason."

That's all it's intended to do, so thanks.


Storm of Vengeance is really kinda weak against high level opponents. It's useful mostly for hurting very large groups of low level enemies.

And it provides her a ranged attack, which she doesn't otherwise have.


Sacred Blood... question, does the faith increase stay when the int/cha drain is healed? I'm seeings lots of abuse potential here. Ignoring that, this is something that her opponents may need to prepare for, but isn't too hard to handle. Level 4 cleric/druid spell Sheltered Vitality from Spell Compendium gives outright immunity, most characters that would be making melee attacks powerful enough to get through her DR won't care much about int or cha, and the save DCs aren't too outlandishly high.

It's supposed to have a 24 hour duration on the buff... Sorry about that.


Voice of the Cosmos seems like another anti-huge-groups-of-low-levels ability for the most part. It being a free action makes it still useful against high level enemies, though, and Celestial Shout could be significant against a group not prepared for it.

Wail of the Cosmos can also help make opponents vulnerable to effects that otherwise wouldn't be able to beat their saves, but yes, it's more of a utility than an actual weapon and as a weapon it's really just the shout that works well as it's functionally greater shout in all directions.


Reality Warp is powerful. A lot of the options are negated by saves with DCs too low to be a serious problem for high or epic level enemies, but taking 2 rounds of actions in one round is always powerful. Also note that fatigue is cured, along with a lot of other things, by Mass Heal, so the post-use fatigue is a very short term problem.

Well, unless she's up against so much DR that she can't really hurt the opponent, then she's stuck with the save or dies. She can also stall even when unconscious using her status effects, to try and give her voices time to heal her.


Spells would be impressively powerful, except for it being as a ranger. The ranger spell list isn't very powerful, stopping at 4th level spells and not getting many good spells even of that level.

Yes, she's the idiot of the group, and has a gimped spell list on purpose. Shep's got favored soul spells, K'Macthia has bard spells and Nya-Za'Thoth has cleric spells (no domain), so she's by far the weakest in this regard.


Now, stats and immunities...

Stats-wise, by the standards of optimization commonly discussed on these forums, these stats are pretty weak. Ask on the 3.5e forum for help building a level 30 character, and whatever random people decide to say something will likely lead you to something that could tear this thing apart with ease. I expect I could do it myself pretty easily, even if you heavily restrict what books I'm allowed to use.

I'd say "core, complete, SC, OA only" and see what you could do, but I'm not really concerned with that.


By the standard of Takamoto Tengu, this is quite strong. In melee, he'll hit a lot but his average damage just barely matches her DR. Without help, he'd never outpace her regeneration, and what's listed for him here doesn't include any source of the immunity/resistance stuff I mentioned above.

Nope. But thankfully his party includes a sorceress. Also a wizard, druid, favored soul, ranger and bard. (And a barbarian, but they're hardly relevant to this discussion.)

EDIT:
I mean the casters can buff the party, him included, for those immunities and to increase his damage output. By quite a lot, actually.


Kawaii Kirei, meanwhile, faces major problems with the SR and energy resistance. If she's got access to the Orb spells from Spell Compendium, that would drastically improve her chances by giving her a damage spell that ignores SR, and she's got the metamagic to boost the damage well above 40. Otherwise... How useful she is against It Yeek'Kal Thet depends heavily on her spell list, and in particular whether she has any way to deal with SR 55. And if either of them gets in reach, those 15 attacks per round will tear through their hp very quickly.

Spell compendium is one of my sourcebooks, yes. She has the option to spam from the sky anything but cold damage, and she's never going to fly low enough to get hit, but she can't beat the big gal on her own.


For immunities, you've covered most of the important ones. There are some major vulnerabilities still, though. It Yeek'Kal Thet has no way to deal with a flying enemy who attacks from range and is prepared with defensive buffs against fear and the various options for Reality Warp. Unless you count Miracle, I suppose. You're far from the first to miss this one, the classic "ultimate" monster the Tarrasque also can't deal with flyers. Options for fixing this pretty much boil down to: 1) give her a potent ranged attack, 2) give her flight or something functionally equivalent, or 3) give her a way to remove flight from her enemies. Or you could just accept this as a weakness of being out of her home environment, since when fighting underwater her swim speed is functionally equivalent to flight.

This is an intentional design flaw, yes. But it's a design flaw her friend Shep doesn't have, of course.


The other big one is illusions. A few cleverly chosen Major Image spells, available to a mere 5th level wizard, could mislead her about what's going on quite thoroughly. A clever high level illusionist could manipulate her with ease, leading her to go wherever he wants, and even do things of his choosing as long as he can think of a way to disguise them as things It Yeek'Kal Thet would want to do. I suggest giving her True Seeing, perhaps fluffed as Celestials perceiving reality in a different way from everyone else, just as their special abilities aren't magic by anyone else's definition. And specify that it has unlimited range, unlike the True Seeing spell which only works out to 120 feet.

Celestials are immune to, notably, poison, disease and mind-affecting spells. I think illusions qualify as mind-affecting, so she's proofed here despite being a total moron.


Summary: For the level of optimization the NPC builds you've posted suggest, even allowing for players being just a bit above them, It Yeek'Kal Thet is, with just a few tweaks, a major combat threat to a level 30 party. Assuming Shep is similarly powerful and they both bring multiple CR 20 helpers plus an assorted army of CR 15 and below, and I could see it taking the forces you described to stop it. For maximum plausibility, even the bottom tier low level monsters should be able to get K'Macthia out if they just get enough of them to her; otherwise, it could end up as the epic party squaring off with the Great Old Ones while the low level monsters are ignored and run amok, and then when the Great Old Ones retreat the epic party mows down the low level monsters as cleanup duty with no need for a legion of mid level soldiers. With, say, 20 to 50 of the weak monsters being able to free K'Macthia if left alone, someone else needs to deal with them while the epic party is busy.

Well, if you let a number of huge creatures get to the ruins, they can indeed pull the hundreds of tonnes of rubble off of K'Macthia and even remove the column from her heart, so yes, this is the case. If the lower-level monsters are ignored they'll free K'Macthia on their own. And while the army is engaging them, they aren't providing artillery support against the great old ones, which is frankly all they can actually do.


Now, for the "getting away to come back later" part. The Voices are essentially irrelevant. Anyone who manages to beat It Yeek'Kal Thet herself into hibernation will do the same to the Voices with trivial ease. That leaves her own capabilities while hibernating, and potential rescue by allies.

Yes, for the most part. But that's why Reality Warper doesn't stop when she loses consciousness, so she can try and protect her voices using status effects for at least a couple minutes. In her case, I'm willing to call that a waste of time. Failing that she can try and kill some of her attackers out of spite using her magic, but a simple death ward and some cold protection will ruin that too.


While hibernating, It Yeek'Kal Thet can... crawl 5 feet/round, cast Freedom, and be very hard to hurt. That's not much, unless you take a very liberal interpretation of what Freedom can deal with. If there's a great big wall in front of her blocking her path, can Freedom break a hole in it for her? Does it matter if the wall forms a large circle to keep her contained? Assuming you're giving that ability to all four of them, I don't think there's any reasonable way to interpret it that would break the wall without also making it able to break the Tomb of the Mother for K'Macthia.

Summary: As it stands, if someone beats It Yeek'Kal Thet into hibernation while she's on land, all it will take to lock her up like K'Macthia is some castings of Wall of Stone and dealing with rescue attempts by her allies. Keeping the nonlethal damage high with the low regen rate is just a matter of pounding away with something big enough to do over 80 damage on a crit long enough to get some pairs of consecutive natural 20s (1 to hit, the other to confirm the crit). You could even build a vehicle to transport her to the Tomb of the Mother so you wouldn't need to establish a second superfortress.

While yes, creating a wall around her would trap her temporarily, remember that K'Macthia is trapped because she has a pillar through her heart and that overcomes her regeneration. Just putting a wall around It Yeek'Kal Thet will prevent her escape for a time, but when she wakes up she can break out. They'd need to contain her in the mean time in such a way as to keep her contained, and aside from building another giant temple to drive a three hundred tonne stone column through her heart, they can't really keep her down indefinitely. Besides, she does bring her kids with her when she does these raids. A couple of huge CR 20s coming out of the water and dragging her back in makes the issue of how to contain her long-term even harder.

But then, if you do imprison her permanently, you've only made matters far, far worse. Nya-Za'Thoth is far more dangerous and destructive than any of the others, and she only stays in her caldera because the others will kick her ass if she leaves. I don't think Shep can stop Nya-Za'Thoth on her own. It'd be better to risk K'Macthia's release, because allowing Nya-Za'Thoth to make it to civilization would be an apocalyptic event.

At the very least, she seems to have been well balanced, if I'm reading this right, so I'll adjust the others to match her overall power. (K'Macthia and Nya-Za'Thoth are still more of a threat, but they aren't stronger, just smarter.)

Douglas
2017-07-31, 01:49 AM
I'd say "core, complete, SC, OA only" and see what you could do, but I'm not really concerned with that.
That's plenty, really, but I don't care enough to put in the effort to put it together.


Celestials are immune to, notably, poison, disease and mind-affecting spells. I think illusions qualify as mind-affecting, so she's proofed here despite being a total moron.
Nope. Illusions are categorized as Figments, Glamers, Patterns, Phantasms, and Shadow spells. Only patterns and phantasms are mind-affecting in general, those being the ones that directly affect a creature rather than creating the appearance of something that a creature then senses. Invisibility, all of the Image line of spells, Veil, Illusory Wall, Hallucinatory Terrain, Mislead, and many more would all work. To negate those, you need True Seeing.


But then, if you do imprison her permanently, you've only made matters far, far worse. Nya-Za'Thoth is far more dangerous and destructive than any of the others, and she only stays in her caldera because the others will kick her ass if she leaves. I don't think Shep can stop Nya-Za'Thoth on her own. It'd be better to risk K'Macthia's release, because allowing Nya-Za'Thoth to make it to civilization would be an apocalyptic event.
Power Gamer says: So imprison Nya-Za-Thoth first, of course.:smallbiggrin:

Avianmosquito
2017-07-31, 01:51 AM
Nope. Illusions are categorized as Figments, Glamers, Patterns, Phantasms, and Shadow spells. Only patterns and phantasms are mind-affecting in general, those being the ones that directly affect a creature rather than creating the appearance of something that a creature then senses. Invisibility, all of the Image line of spells, Veil, Illusory Wall, Hallucinatory Terrain, Mislead, and many more would all work. To negate those, you need True Seeing.

Oh. Well then, feel free to jerk her around all you want. She has a really good will save, but she's an idiot.


Power Gamer says: So imprison Nya-Za-Thoth first, of course.:smallbiggrin:

Good luck, she teleports home when defeated. Her home being the caldera exposed by her impact crater. You'd have to imprison her there, and constructing a lasting prison on an active volcano is kinda difficult. Especially since containing an eruption would result in an explosive release when the magma chamber ruptures, blowing the entire valley apart.

Douglas
2017-07-31, 10:05 AM
Good luck, she teleports home when defeated. Her home being the caldera exposed by her impact crater. You'd have to imprison her there, and constructing a lasting prison on an active volcano is kinda difficult. Especially since containing an eruption would result in an explosive release when the magma chamber ruptures, blowing the entire valley apart.
Details, details. Hit her with a Dimensional Anchor (bolstered by Wish if necessary) before she teleports home, then transport her non-teleporting hulk to the Tomb of the Mother while preparing for the next attack.:smalltongue:

If your players actually pull that off, I will be surprised and impressed.

Avianmosquito
2017-07-31, 04:31 PM
Details, details. Hit her with a Dimensional Anchor (bolstered by Wish if necessary) before she teleports home, then transport her non-teleporting hulk to the Tomb of the Mother while preparing for the next attack.:smalltongue:

If your players actually pull that off, I will be surprised and impressed.

It's worth noting that containing her anywhere living things are is a terrible idea, as well. Remember how K'Macthia continues to expand the otherlands even while hibernating with a building through her chest, only now it's by far worse? Well, Nya-Za'Thoth does something similar, except instead of physically altering the life in a hundred miles around her (the expanding of the otherlands is the natural spread of the altered creatures), Nya-Za'Thoth's mind bleeds into reality and turns a hundred miles around her into a psychological landscape defined by the memories of the dead. This effect also lingers.

The damnedest thing about punching out Cthulhu is that you always break your arm doing it.