Conjure Ice Beast seems a bit too powerful.

[magicalmagicman]

First, no randomness. You get 1, 2, or 4 creatures.

Second, +1d6 cold damage per attack is huge low levels.

Third, +20hp or +30hp is huge low levels.

Fourth, You can use Nature Ally's list.

Fifth, Engulf targets reflex save and is an instant pin. Even if the Ice Beast always loses its grapple checks it can constantly waste 2 standard actions of the target, or 1 standard action and keep him grappled forever. This makes only the Conjured Ice Beast's size, hd, and STR matter, making lower level Conjure Ice Beasts relevant later in the game, because it targets reflex.

Sixth, No-SR, No-Save Blasting. So with Conjure Ice Beast VII, you can summon FOUR Large Elementals, 8hd each, resulting in a total of 16d6 blasting every 1d4 rounds. Cast several Conjure Ice Beast VIIs and the damage keeps stacking as previous Ice Beasts will be able to blast again. Conjure Ice Beast VIII, you get FOUR HUGE Elementals, resulting in 32d6 blasting. That's as high as Meteor Swarm, except this one has no save, no-sr, and you get 4 huge beatsticks/meatshields.

Seventh, Doesn't cut off access to Summon Monster, so Clerics have all the versatility of SLAs on top of the sheer power of Nature's Ally.

Eighth, it's Conjuration(Creation), so it works in every dimension locked place.

What's the drawback?

[Karl Aegis]

It costs an entire round to cast. Your enemies can disrupt it. Like most action economy changing spells.

[magicalmagicman]

It costs an entire round to cast. Your enemies can disrupt it. Like most action economy changing spells.

No different than Summon Monster and Nature's Ally spells.

[zergling.exe]

They cannot fly, have no intelligence and lose all special abilities the base creature had.

[zergling.exe]

Just noticed this, but your Second, Fifth, and Sixth points are mutually exclusive per ice beast, since they only get one special attack.

[magicalmagicman]

Just noticed this, but your Second, Fifth, and Sixth points are mutually exclusive per ice beast, since they only get one special attack.

I know, but since you get to choose I don't think it really matters. You choose +1d6 damage most of the time low levels, occasionally engulf, never blasting. Then you never choose +1d6 damage higher levels and instead go engulf or blasting.

4 Creatures swallowing a creature or attempting to swallow a creature by targeting reflex is very strong I think.

[RoboEmperor]

You choose +1d6 damage most of the time low levels, occasionally engulf, never blasting.

That's not true. At level 1 I'd pick blasting. Guaranteed AoE 1d6 blasting is better than 2d6+1 damage on a target with only a +3 to hit.

edit: Actually I'd pick the 1d6 aura damage instead, so guaranteed 1d6 blasting and an attack. Thanks Eldariel.

[Eldariel]

It's a great low level spell. Levels 1-3 the aura is superb, the construct HP is nice and it's overall a great spell where Summon Monster kinda sucks.

Lacking randomness is nice but that means you can't rod-empower or maximize it. Also it's not a proper Summoning spell so you can't use Summoning feats like Augment Summoning nor abilities like Rapid Summoning with it.

On spell levels 3+, creatures' spell-likes, special attacks, etc. begin to be a big selling point though and HD+Con begins outstripping the flat Construct HP Bonus rapidly leaving CIB in the dust. Engulf still retains its occasional utility and 4d6 AOE automatic damage can be nice but mostly I'd lean towards preparing the more versatile and powerful Summon Monster.

A great spell for RHOD Doom Hand Clerics tho.

[Bronk]

That's not true. At level 1 I'd pick blasting. Guaranteed AoE 1d6 blasting is better than 2d6+1 damage on a target with only a +3 to hit.

edit: Actually I'd pick the 1d6 aura damage instead, so guaranteed 1d6 blasting and an attack. Thanks Eldariel.

Blasting is the way to go at low levels, because it's the best anti-swarm cleric spell for quite a while.

[RoboEmperor]

Blasting is the way to go at low levels, because it's the best anti-swarm cleric spell for quite a while.

I guess it depends on the situation. 1d6 30ft cone v.s. 1d6 10ft radius + melee attack.

[AnimeTheCat]

A great spell for RHOD Doom Hand Clerics tho.


Blasting is the way to go at low levels, because it's the best anti-swarm cleric spell for quite a while.

Would just like to say, having the artificer and creation domains at level 1 gets you casting Conjure Ice Beast as a 4th level cleric, removing one of the worst parts of summoning spells at low levels.

[RoboEmperor]

Would just like to say, having the artificer and creation domains at level 1 gets you casting Conjure Ice Beast as a 4th level cleric, removing one of the worst parts of summoning spells at low levels.

I think both is overkill. Nothing at that level is gonna survive more than 2d6 of cold damage, which you can do with only artifice domain.

[AnimeTheCat]

I think both is overkill. Nothing at that level is gonna survive more than 2d6 of cold damage, which you can do with only artifice domain.

I never said it wasn't overkill, I merely stated that it was possible to be casting these spells with a duration of 4 rounds at level 1. That could get you 2 burts off, maybe 3 if you're really lucky with your d4 rolls. at level 1.

[RoboEmperor]

I never said it wasn't overkill, I merely stated that it was possible to be casting these spells with a duration of 4 rounds at level 1. That could get you 2 burts off, maybe 3 if you're really lucky with your d4 rolls. at level 1.

OP failed to mention Cold Aura (Su). 1d6 to everyone in a 10ft radius every round, and since at level 1 the conjured ice beasts blast is also just 1d6, no reason to pick blasting over Cold Aura. So thats 4d6 + 4 melee attacks at level 1 with that 1 spell. 4 bursts and 4 attacks.

I can't believe I failed to notice this spell before. It is freaking awesome!

[Cosi]

The summon monster and summon nature's ally spells are pretty bad. As such, there's a lot of room to buff them without them becoming too good. The only thing that sounds potentially dangerous is conjuring 30+ HP creatures at low levels, but at those levels the creatures last like three rounds anyway and you still don't care.

None of this seems like enough to want me to spend a 4th level spell slot on summoning instead of DMM: Persist divine power or evard's black tentacles.

[RoboEmperor]

The summon monster and summon nature's ally spells are pretty bad. As such, there's a lot of room to buff them without them becoming too good. The only thing that sounds potentially dangerous is conjuring 30+ HP creatures at low levels, but at those levels the creatures last like three rounds anyway and you still don't care.

I disagree. This spell replaces several existing spells like Burning Hands, all Lesser Orbs, Magic Missile, any blasting really, because it has more AoE, as much damage if not more, you get 20-30hp+ beatsticks, which means they blast again next round.

So like, level 3, you use a Conjure Ice Beast II to summon two Ice Beast Wolves. Each do 1d6 + melee attack for 3 rounds, resulting in 6d6 + 6 melee attacks from that 1 spell. More if you have Creation or Artifice domains.

Level 5, you use Conjure Ice Beast II to summon FOUR Ice Beast Wolves, resulting in 4d6 cold damage a round for 5 rounds, leading up to 20d6, all from 1 spell! Not to mention because of that +20hp, they are tanky even at level 5!

This could be the defacto best low level spell chain in the game!

I now know why I never noticed these spells before. Divine only.

[JNAProductions]

I disagree. This spell replaces several existing spells like Burning Hands, all Lesser Orbs, Magic Missile, any blasting really, because it has more AoE, as much damage if not more, you get 20-30hp+ beatsticks, which means they blast again next round.

So like, level 3, you use a Conjure Ice Beast II to summon two Ice Beast Wolves. Each do 1d6 + melee attack for 3 rounds, resulting in 6d6 + 6 melee attacks from that 1 spell. More if you have Creation or Artifice domains.

Level 5, you use Conjure Ice Beast II to summon FOUR Ice Beast Wolves, resulting in 4d6 cold damage a round for 5 rounds, leading up to 20d6, all from 1 spell! Not to mention because of that +20hp, they are tanky even at level 5!

This could be the defacto best low level spell chain in the game!

I now know why I never noticed these spells before. Divine only.

Cold resisting enemies. Also a one-round casting time, not a one action.

[RoboEmperor]

Cold resisting enemies. Also a one-round casting time, not a one action.

Seeing how you don't use Augment summoning, I'm a give Rapid Spell + Metamagic School Focus a try. Full-round your highest level Conjure Ice Beast, and then 1 round lower levels because I'm pretty sure you aren't gonna need more than 1 casting of the highest level per encounter.

[Cosi]

I disagree. This spell replaces several existing spells like Burning Hands, all Lesser Orbs, Magic Missile, any blasting really, because it has more AoE, as much damage if not more, you get 20-30hp+ beatsticks, which means they blast again next round.

The first level blasting spells are crap. If this is better, it might rise to the level of "actually useful", which can only be an improvement. Call me when it displaces color spray or sleep.

[Zanos]

The first level blasting spells are crap. If this is better, it might rise to the level of "actually useful", which can only be an improvement. Call me when it displaces color spray or sleep.
Color Spray requires you to put your (usually) d4 no armor level 1 character within 15 feet of something that can probably kill you in one hit. It's okay, but it's not nearly as good as people make it out in theorycrafting, because they forget that even with a maxed out casting stat at first level there's still a 25%+ that thing is still up and is going to wreck you.

These summon spells, like most summon spells, are still pretty bad at low levels, since they last for 1 round/level.

[Buufreak]

The first level blasting spells are crap. If this is better, it might rise to the level of "actually useful", which can only be an improvement. Call me when it displaces color spray or sleep.

Definitely this. If we were talking anything solid that these icy critters were doing, like a slow or a freeze (stun), then we would be talking a whole different ball game. As it stands, they have hit points and deal hit points in damage. You know who else does that? The party's BSF. I'm fairly certain the best summon spells throw out legitimate foil, which is why we actually discuss them. These guys, not so much.

[Soranar]

You also get them as spell knowns for free as a frost mage
Not as powerful as the spells you get as a sandshaper but a frost mage doesn't lose caster levels and you gain piercing cold for free

For something like a beguiler or a sorcerer this is pretty good

[RoboEmperor]

Definitely this. If we were talking anything solid that these icy critters were doing, like a slow or a freeze (stun), then we would be talking a whole different ball game. As it stands, they have hit points and deal hit points in damage. You know who else does that? The party's BSF. I'm fairly certain the best summon spells throw out legitimate foil, which is why we actually discuss them. These guys, not so much.

The best summon monster I and II usage is summoning spiders to entangle everyone and give flanking, essentially a +4 to hit. Compared to that I think 1d6 AoE cold damage + melee attack a round is better, since these guys can flank too. Just need to be wary of friendly fire.

[magicalmagicman]

See, spell is really powerful. +1d6 cold damage and melee attack for every caster level with a giant hp tank that's so tanky it's better to use level 1 monsters instead of level 3 monsters at level 5, on top of being able to switch to an engulfing creature whenever the situation warrants it.

[Beheld]

If you are counting damage you do on the 4th round of spell you don't even get to cast half the time because it is interrupted, you are doing the wrong math. Also, obviously, when cold resist 5 negates all of that.

[icefractal]

It does seem pretty nice for the low levels. I think it falls under the radar, because mostly people use summoning for either:

A) A summoning-oriented build with a lot of feats/items/etc to boost summoning. Such as a Druid with Augment Summoning, Greenbond Summoning, Ring of the Beast, Summoner's Totem, and so forth. Since CIB doesn't combine with anything, it doesn't get used here.

B) Utility purposes at mid-high level. Which CIB loses.

But for someone who's low-mid level and aiming for the latter, CIB seems like a good one to also have available. Also, it seems great for a Shadowcraft Mage, since they're unlikely to have much Summon-specific stuff.

I wouldn't call it OP though. Meteor Swarm is just a bad spell - it's already obsoleted just by using SNA IX for Storm Elementals. At low levels, it's pretty nice, but the slow casting and short duration are significant limiting factors.

[eggynack]

A) A summoning-oriented build with a lot of feats/items/etc to boost summoning. Such as a Druid with Augment Summoning, Greenbond Summoning, Ring of the Beast, Summoner's Totem, and so forth. Since CIB doesn't combine with anything, it doesn't get used here.
This is doubly true because this spell doesn't even combine with, y'know, being SNA. Meaning you can't spontaneously cast it. The best case scenario here is like second level, casting SNA I/conjure ice beast for either a wolf or an ice wolf. It's a comparison that strikes me as ice wolf favorable, but not so ice wolf favorable that it's worth sacrificing spontaneity. You lose the trip attack and mediocre senses in exchange for a whole lot of burliness and some extra damage. But the burliness, how useful can that be when you're getting that for two rounds? That seems like a pretty important problem in general, actually. Conjure ice beast is at its best when summoning in a broad sense is at its worst. I think this whole thing makes more sense as a whole for non-druids, because summon monster burly summons are rather less burly than their SNA counterparts, and because they're not sacrificing something essential to make use of the spell.

[RoboEmperor]

This is doubly true because this spell doesn't even combine with, y'know, being SNA. Meaning you can't spontaneously cast it. The best case scenario here is like second level, casting SNA I/conjure ice beast for either a wolf or an ice wolf. It's a comparison that strikes me as ice wolf favorable, but not so ice wolf favorable that it's worth sacrificing spontaneity. You lose the trip attack and mediocre senses in exchange for a whole lot of burliness and some extra damage. But the burliness, how useful can that be when you're getting that for two rounds? That seems like a pretty important problem in general, actually. Conjure ice beast is at its best when summoning in a broad sense is at its worst. I think this whole thing makes more sense as a whole for non-druids, because summon monster burly summons are rather less burly than their SNA counterparts, and because they're not sacrificing something essential to make use of the spell.

Yeah, at least I was under the assumption we were comparing SM and CIB, not NA and CIB, because as a SM user, summoning spiders to throw web at guys makes me sad because I don't do any of the killing and this is literally the best way to use SMI & II, and CIB is a huge step up from that.

Clerics can spontaneously change CIB to cure spells, so I guess it's a totally different scenario altogether depending on whether we're talking about clerics or druids.

[magicalmagicman]

I guess the verdict is in.

Feat and Class Feature boostsed SM > CIB + SM mix > Naked SM.

CIB >> everything lower levels.

[eggynack]

I guess the verdict is in.

Feat and Class Feature boostsed SM > CIB + SM mix > Naked SM.

Maybe at low levels. But summon monster becomes pretty great for utility later on, and it happens around when ground pounders lose some of their interest. SM IV, for example, has roughly a billion SLA's, including some pretty high level stuff like stinking cloud and wind wall. Not sure I really want a giant crocodile without improved grab over that.

[RoboEmperor]

Not sure I really want a giant crocodile without improved grab over that.

Why would you prefer improved grab over an instant pin that targets reflex save?

[eggynack]

Why would you prefer improved grab over an instant pin that targets reflex save?
I suppose there's an advantage to that, though I appreciate that improved grab operates off of the crocodile's big and damaging attack instead of just being the attack in itself. Engulf is arguably better if you're comparing the grapple to it directly, but 21 damage with a +11 to hit is solid.

[RoboEmperor]

I suppose there's an advantage to that, though I appreciate that improved grab operates off of the crocodile's big and damaging attack instead of just being the attack in itself. Engulf is arguably better if you're comparing the grapple to it directly, but 21 damage with a +11 to hit is solid.

Giant Crocodile is NA IV, not SMIV. SMIV needs to use Fiendish Dire Wolves.

The advantage here is, you can get 2 dire wolf ice beasts instead of the 1 crocodile with CIB IV, so you get 2 tries to engulf at DC20, engulfed creatures get 2d6 damage a round, and instant pin means the opponent has to waste a standard action to get out of the pin before he can start damaging the CIB, more if he fails to escape the pin, at which point the 2nd CIB can start trying to engulf the grappled victim, who has no dex bonus. So that's basically a perma-pin, which should be superior to the giant crocodile.

From the damage standpoint, you're right 21 damage a round is really nice. 2 dire icewolves can only do 6d6 ice damage for blast, which is 21 as well, but that's once every 1d4 rounds.

edit: I might be wrong about the 2nd ice beast engulfing while grappling. When you're pinned you're inside the creature's body for sure, but once you escape pin, are you still inside the body, trying to emerge from the Ice Beast's mouth, or have you fully emerged and are wrestling with the ice beast? By strict RAW, I think you're still inside the body.

[Bronk]

You'd be better off using a pair of huge monstrous centipedes (which come online at spell level 3) for better grappling. 6HD would also grant a 3d6 cold breath.

[RoboEmperor]

You'd be better off using a pair of huge monstrous centipedes (which come online at spell level 3) for better grappling. 6HD would also grant a 3d6 cold breath.

They both have 6hd, both have +15 grapple, one is large with 25 STR therefore DC20 on the reflex save, and the other is Huge with a 17 STR therefore DC16 reflex save. The only time i'd pick the centipede over the dire wolf is if the target is large size.

[Bronk]

They both have 6hd, both have +15 grapple, one is large with 25 STR therefore DC20 on the reflex save, and the other is Huge with a 17 STR therefore DC16 reflex save. The only time i'd pick the centipede over the dire wolf is if the target is large size.

I'd pick the centipede because it comes online two levels earlier, is tougher, and with CIB IV you'd get two of them instead of one.

Edit: I see the regular dire wolf comes up at the same level... I'd still go for the huge creature with the larger hit point bonus.

[RoboEmperor]

Edit: I see the regular dire wolf comes up at the same level... I'd still go for the huge creature with the larger hit point bonus.

Dire Wolf: 45(listed hp) + 30 (construct) - 18(con bonus 3*6) = 57hp
Huge Centipede: 33(listed hp) + 40 (construct) - 6 (con bonus, 1*6) = 67hp

So you're trading +4 DC for 10hp. I don't think that's a good trade. I'd only go centipede if I absolutely have to.

[Bronk]

Dire Wolf: 45(listed hp) + 30 (construct) - 18(con bonus 3*6) = 57hp
Huge Centipede: 33(listed hp) + 40 (construct) - 6 (con bonus, 1*6) = 67hp

So you're trading +4 DC for 10hp. I don't think that's a good trade. I'd only go centipede if I absolutely have to.

Since I would generally use these guys against swarms, that would usually be a good trade for me.

[eggynack]

Giant Crocodile is NA IV, not SMIV. SMIV needs to use Fiendish Dire Wolves.

The advantage here is, you can get 2 dire wolf ice beasts instead of the 1 crocodile with CIB IV, so you get 2 tries to engulf at DC20, engulfed creatures get 2d6 damage a round, and instant pin means the opponent has to waste a standard action to get out of the pin before he can start damaging the CIB, more if he fails to escape the pin, at which point the 2nd CIB can start trying to engulf the grappled victim, who has no dex bonus. So that's basically a perma-pin, which should be superior to the giant crocodile.
Conjure ice beast pulls from both the SNA list and the SM list. Hence, the comparison between ice crocodile and the array of summon monster possibilities.

[RoboEmperor]

This is just too hilarious for me to keep to myself! I was researching how to get Fiery Burst on a cleric at level 3 and came across Energy Subsitution! By RAW, you can apply it to any spell with an energy descriptor, even if it doesn't deal damage!

So yeah! You can create beasts made up of living flame, living lightning, or living acid!

Anyone have any ideas to capitalize on this discovery? XD

A spontaneous divine caster with 3 energy substitutions (acid, electricity, and fire) is the true master of elementals!

[Eldariel]

This is just too hilarious for me to keep to myself! I was researching how to get Fiery Burst on a cleric at level 3 and came across Energy Subsitution! By RAW, you can apply it to any spell with an energy descriptor, even if it doesn't deal damage!

So yeah! You can create beasts made up of living flame, living lightning, or living acid!

Anyone have any ideas to capitalize on this discovery? XD

A spontaneous divine caster with 3 energy substitutions (acid, electricity, and fire) is the true master of elementals!

I've made the various Clerics of Tiamat in RHoD use different variants of this. Five heads, five elements. Though there are no comparable templates so it gets a bit weird with some of the abilities.