Bladesinger advice

[Starchild7309]

OK so currently I am playing a 5th level character 3 Swashbuckler Rogue/2 Bladesinger. I am on the cusp of 6th level, but I am torn between grabbing third level of bladesinger and 2nd level spells or 4th of Rogue and grabbing the ASI. Pertinent info: Dex and Int are 18. Personally I am kind of leaning toward the spells, but I would appreciate seeing others opinions on this. I could also take a feat, but none seem as good as bumping a stat. If you need any clarification or have any suggestions, please let me know.

[Spiderguy24]

Depends on what you have in mind for your character. Many, and I do mean MANY people here will tell you to go wizard for the spells. If you're looking for a spellslinging duelist type, then yeah I'd say go with the wizard as well and try to get at least 3rd level spells as soon as possible. If you're not worried about the magic, then Rogue isn't a bad option either.

[djreynolds]

OK so currently I am playing a 5th level character 3 Swashbuckler Rogue/2 Bladesinger. I am on the cusp of 6th level, but I am torn between grabbing third level of bladesinger and 2nd level spells or 4th of Rogue and grabbing the ASI. Pertinent info: Dex and Int are 18. Personally I am kind of leaning toward the spells, but I would appreciate seeing others opinions on this. I could also take a feat, but none seem as good as bumping a stat. If you need any clarification or have any suggestions, please let me know.

I here a lot about this particular build, the bladesinger swashbuckler, how fun is it?

Its a tough decision, IMO, as what a rogue can do like climbing and stealth can appear magical and of course every few levels of rogue is another 1d6 of SA damage

I guess it really depends on what spells you see yourself using.

Stuff like blur/mirror image is nice for combat

Do you like using utility spells like levitate and fly?

Hold person is good to have for auto-crits,

many of the spells you will receive at 2nd level are very good for movement, travel, exploration and such

20 in dex is great for stealth, but so is invisibility coupled with your already high stealth score

You can now levitate if the climb is to dangerous

I would go for more bladesinger and spells.

Uncanny dodge is great to have, but you have bladesong and the shield spell and maybe blur going at 2nd level.... you may never get hit.

Are you mostly using cantrips for attack?

[lunaticfringe]

If your Dex & Int are both sitting at 18 you could easily Wizard +2 for the ASI, then Rogue 4 for 2 ASIs in 2 level ups. I assume blade cantrips & SA on most hits? 2d8+2d6+4ish? Seems alright, grab the Spellcaster levels imho.

[DivisibleByZero]

The Swashbuckling Bladesinger confuses me.
Arcane Trickster synergizes so much better here....

[shuangwucanada]

Looking at the long run. I don't think level 3+ wizard gives you much. On the other hand, rogue levels 4-12 really give you a lot. More sneak attack dies, 4 with ASI, 5 with uncanny dodge, 6 with expertise, 7 with evasion, 8 with ASI, 9 with panache for kiting, 10 with ASI, 11 with reliable talent, 12 with ASI... I don't really want to delay any of these for level 2 spells and double spell slots per long rest.

[shuangwucanada]

The Swashbuckling Bladesinger confuses me.
Arcane Trickster synergizes so much better here....

In combat swashbuckler/bladesinger is much better.

Swashbuckler doesn't need to be sneaky to trigger sneak attack, and with booming blade (which is the opposite of being sneaky), it is offensively much better.

Hit and run with booming blade makes it defensively much better too.

[DivisibleByZero]

In combat swashbuckler/bladesinger is much better.

Swashbuckler doesn't need to be sneaky to trigger sneak attack, and with booming blade (which is the opposite of being sneaky), it is offensively much better.

Hit and run with booming blade makes it defensively much better too.

You don't need to be sneaky to trigger SA. You just need advantage or an ally in melee range.
Choose your targets wisely, grab the Mobile feat and you can hit and run just as well, and now you also have more spells prepared and more spel slots to work with.
AT is the better choice, far and away.

[Easy_Lee]

You don't need to be sneaky to trigger SA. You just need advantage or an ally in melee range.
Choose your targets wisely, grab the Mobile feat and you can hit and run just as well, and now you also have more spells prepared and more spel slots to work with.
AT is the better choice, far and away.

I think it's more flavor than anything. People wanted to combine swashbuckling with Bladesinger.

If they could pick and choose features, creating a hybrid class / archetype, they probably would. But that isn't supported. Hence, suboptimal multiclassing.

[DivisibleByZero]

I think it's more flavor than anything. People wanted to combine swashbuckling with Bladesinger.

If they could pick and choose features, creating a hybrid class / archetype, they probably would. But that isn't supported. Hence, suboptimal multiclassing.

My point was that it isn't anywhere near difficult to get SA on an attack, so going Swashbuckler is almost pointless if you take the Mobile feat, at which point AT is supremely better.
You take Swash to get SA on anyone, and to not provoke when skirmishing. The first isn't hard to get anyway, and the second is covered by a feat. If you're multiclassing a caster (especially Bladesinger), Swashbuckler almost becomes redundant, and loses you casting in the process.

[Starchild7309]

In combat swashbuckler/bladesinger is much better.

Swashbuckler doesn't need to be sneaky to trigger sneak attack, and with booming blade (which is the opposite of being sneaky), it is offensively much better.

Hit and run with booming blade makes it defensively much better too.

This exactly. Our party consists of a EK fighter, paladin, AT rogue, a warlock and me. I end up grabbing snipers or hidden foes who are picking at us from a distance. Last night I even went toe to toe with a fire giant for about 5 rounds. Still torn. I think since I am not taking too many damage spells +2 to int is the least important, but still trying to decide between the increase to ac, attack, damage, and skills vs. 2 2nd level spells and another 1st.

[Captain Bob]

If your role in the group is primarily that of a rogue, I'd recommend sticking with rogue through level 7. Evasion and Uncanny dodge are pretty damn important in my opinion, and picking up extra damage dice is no joke either. Also ASI's are good. I view the main benefits of your caster dip to already be at your disposal...blade singing, ritual casting, access to reaction spells - thus if you're pursuing the rogue-ly path I would double down on it - levels 5,6,7 of rogue are extremely strong.

[Finieous]

In combat swashbuckler/bladesinger is much better.

Swashbuckler doesn't need to be sneaky to trigger sneak attack, and with booming blade (which is the opposite of being sneaky), it is offensively much better.

Hit and run with booming blade makes it defensively much better too.

I've tried it both ways, and I think AT is better. You're getting more cantrips, more spells, and 1/3 spellcasting progression. You get an owl for advantage most of the time, which automatically lets you sneak attack and roll 2d20 for your to hit. You use booming blade when you're not being sneaky and green-flame blade when you are. You stick and bonus action Disengage.

With 18s already in Dex and Int, I'd definitely get the wizard levels. Blur, Invisibility, Knock, Levitate, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Rope Trick, Spider Climb...your only problem is that you can't get all the awesome 2nd-level spells at once, but you should get them as soon as you can.

[Rogerdodger557]

I would go at least one more level of bladesinger for 2 spells that will be absolutely amazing for you. Mirror Image and Misty Step. A 30ft. bonus action teleport(no OA) and 3 illusory duplicates that have an AC of 10+your DEX that you roll to see if they it you or one of your mirror images. They are both 2nd level spells, and are worth going more bladesinger.

[Biggstick]

I'm also in the boat of grab another Wizard level.

The reason you should grab that 3rd Wizard level is that you're not an Arcane Trickster. At the moment, you only have three spells per long rest. That third Wizard level gives you 3 more spells (for a total of 6) spells you can cast per long rest. Even more if you can manage to get a short rest off and use Arcane Recovery (or whatever the spell recovery mechanic is for Wizards). Picking up this level really opens up your spell casting.

So while I'm in the boat of grab another Wizard level, I think you should go Rogue for the rest of your character's career. Or at least get to Swashbuckler 7 // Wizard 3 before you make any more build path decisions.

[Citan]

OK so currently I am playing a 5th level character 3 Swashbuckler Rogue/2 Bladesinger. I am on the cusp of 6th level, but I am torn between grabbing third level of bladesinger and 2nd level spells or 4th of Rogue and grabbing the ASI. Pertinent info: Dex and Int are 18. Personally I am kind of leaning toward the spells, but I would appreciate seeing others opinions on this. I could also take a feat, but none seem as good as bumping a stat. If you need any clarification or have any suggestions, please let me know.
Go Bladesinger 3, unless there is a particular feat you really want right now.
Otherwise, with already that high INT and DEX, you can certainly want for one more level.

And Bladesinger gives you too many good spells to pass: Invisibility, Dust Devil, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Blindness, Blur, Phantasmal Force, Rope Trick, Shatter, Suggestion, Web... So many options, with zero "bad choice".

You can't go wrong with going Bladesinger 3 now, then either go up to 5 or (what I'd probably do) go first Rogue 5 for ASI and Uncanny Dodge (to avoid consuming too many 1st level slots on Shield).


The Swashbuckling Bladesinger confuses me.
Arcane Trickster synergizes so much better here....
Depends on how high you go in each. For a 5-level max multiclass, Swasbuckler is arguably as good or better as Arcane Trickster: easier Sneak Attack, auto disengage are keeping your character free from getting the otherwise "too great to pass" Mobile feat.
The +CHA to Initiative is probably useless though, unless you rolled stats, and you rolled well.
If you make a balanced multiclass 9/11, then agreed, Arcane Trickster is by far the absolute best archetype to mix with Bladesinger.


My point was that it isn't anywhere near difficult to get SA on an attack, so going Swashbuckler is almost pointless if you take the Mobile feat, at which point AT is supremely better.
You take Swash to get SA on anyone, and to not provoke when skirmishing. The first isn't hard to get anyway, and the second is covered by a feat. If you're multiclassing a caster (especially Bladesinger), Swashbuckler almost becomes redundant, and loses you casting in the process.
Not necessarily. Because Bladesinger screams melee, the usual "hide&pop an arrow" does not work unless you grab hand crossbow proficiency some way or another.
And you don't always have someone conveniently located near the enemy you want to attack (because your frontliner is fighting with a too defensive enemy, or because there is no real frontliner).
And freeing a feat space means you can more easily max DEX, INT, grab Warcaster feat and yet another one (Resilient: Dexterity or Constitution, Tough, Observant, Spell Sniper, Magic Initiate etc).

So no, AT is not intrinsically better: among all the features it brings, more are directly synergizing with the Wizard, but there still are cases where Swashbuckler would be better. Especially for low-level dips: if you stick with 3 levels because you want to still get 9th level spells, Swashbuckler is the better choice offense-wise, by far, because...
- AT's cantrips are not strictly necessary for an melee-geared Bladesinger (and Wizard ultimately learns a few more anyways).
- AT's "additional" first spells can be learned as a Wizard through loot anyways.
- So only main benefit is invisible Mage Hand: while I love it, since it cannot yet be used to distract enemies (because there is a dedicated feature for it at 13th level), it's useless as far as offense optimization goes.
- And one more spell level: a Wizard 17 still gets his 9th level spells anyways, so it's a loss, but a pretty viable once for someone that spent his life swinging weapons while using low-level spells to buff himself or control battlefield. ;)

[Starchild7309]

Thank you to the people that actually answered with their opinions. I think we kind of veered in a direction, arguing between AT and Swashbuckler....I am already currently Bladesinger 2/Swashbuckler 3. No changing that. I am planning on taking one more level of rogue either this level coming up or in the future and the rest in wizard. My question was and is : Is it better to take a level of wizard now and get 2nd level spells or take rogue now and bump dex to get a +1 to AC, Initiative, Attack, Damage, Dex save and Dex skills and SA to 3d6?

[djreynolds]

Your party needs access to all of those wizard spells.

There are so many things only a wizard can do, a warlock and sorcerer and bard have only known spells

You have all the combat prowess you will need from rogue and fancyfoot work

You need all the little spells to solve all the problems, your team is awesome and has combat solved, your AT rogue and warlock have the exploration and social aspects covered, but that spellbook of yours covers everything else.

Do you need water breathing? Yeah I got that. All of those types of spell are at your disposal

Comprehend languages, contact other planes, counterspell, dispel magic.... the list of spells is endless. Stone shape, passwall

Your spellbook is actually the party's spellbook