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View Full Version : Lycanthropy. Huh?



Leliel
2007-08-08, 11:46 AM
I am conniseur of D&D (as in I know the rules, but I have no one to play it with) and this has been troubleing me. Specifically, the fact that a afflicted lycan changes alignment. I have no problems with your character losing control of herself around the full moon, but, shouldn't it get better over time, not worse?

Also, I take issue with the fact that lycans even HAVE a base alignment to begin with (animals not being capable of moral decisons), and the fact that the alignments themselves make no sense. Take werewolves, for instance. The "Evil" part is nonsensical beacuse wolves are very kind to other wolves, and a predator needs to eat to survive. The "Chaotic" part? I've got two words that show why that makes even less sense: Pack animal.

Plus, the reason that Wizards gives ("The alignment of lycanthropes is determined by people's perceptions of them") is unbeliveably confusing ("How is a natural force decided by how people percive it?", "If I populated a continent with Stephen Colbert clones, would the werebears from that area be NE?" etc.) so if you may answer this question:
Should the RAW on lycanthropes be rewritten?

This lycan fan awaits your answers!

rankrath
2007-08-08, 11:51 AM
the rules should be rewritten, the evil alignment goes back to early DnD, where monsters were just for killing, and a PC or important NPC would never become affected, ever.

Jasdoif
2007-08-08, 11:58 AM
The alignment change makes little sense. Of course, being an afflicted lycanthrope as opposed to a natural lycanthrope has other problems as well....

earlblue
2007-08-08, 12:17 PM
Actually, the perception of how people sees whatever is a very valid reason for alignment.

Alignment arguements have been around since DnD in it's long history of existence. Of course is it not how things work... we are talking about gamers, not shrinks...

It is strange that people forget that this is a game, and alignment(s) are just guideline as to how certain creature will act and react. And since this is not a degree course, simple terms like CE (Chaotic Evil) are used.

In reality, however, we do term others by perception. Hitler is said to be one of the greatest evil person that ever lived, but I'm sure he will disagree with you if he is still around. Many mad people would be termed 'CN' but they still think they are quite sane.

And it is not true that they may get 'better' over time. Some do, some don't. I don't know if anyone ever did a study and come up with some stats as to whether the majority of insane people get better or not...

Alignment change due to becoming a werewolf can be liken to becoming insane, but we will never know since a) Werewolf may look like a wolf, smell like a wolf, but is not really a wolf, b) because werewolf is not a wolf, we cannot attribute wolf behaviour to werewolves; and c) even if there are werewolves in real life, the werewolf or Lycanthropy in a D20 game is a creation of whoever wrote them for d20 game - and being the creator, they can write anything they want, it is afteraall fiction.

You are always welcome to re-write whatever you don't like. Strangely enough, this is also a statement that most forget. Just don't expect everyone to follow you.

OBeQuiet UWannabe.

Jasdoif
2007-08-08, 12:27 PM
It is strange that people forget that this is a game, and alignment(s) are just guideline as to how certain creature will act and react.That's exactly the point. It is a game, and the alignments effects here often amount to "you've caught this disease, so now you have to play your character in a way that you never wanted to, whether you like it or not." That's not fun for a player.

Inane-Fedaykin
2007-08-08, 12:32 PM
It is strange that people forget that this is a game, and alignment(s) are just guideline as to how certain creature will act and react. And since this is not a degree course, simple terms like CE (Chaotic Evil) are used.

In reality, however, we do term others by perception. Hitler is said to be one of the greatest evil person that ever lived, but I'm sure he will disagree with you if he is still around. Many mad people would be termed 'CN' but they still think they are quite sane.


And since this is a nerd board...

Magneto would be considered Lawfull Evil by most people but I'm sure he would consider himself Chaotic Good.

Allignment means nothing, if any DM should ever force you to abide by it tell em to shove it up their ass.

puppyavenger
2007-08-08, 12:39 PM
Unless ofcourse you are cursed or somthing.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-08-08, 12:51 PM
And since this is a nerd board...

Magneto would be considered Lawfull Evil by most people but I'm sure he would consider himself Chaotic Good.


Didn't he call his organization the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants?

earlblue
2007-08-08, 12:53 PM
Ah! The player that wants to do everything 'My Way'. For a moment there, I thought we are discussing alignment changes and whether it is illogical or not. And here we are discussing about players who what to do whatever they like in the game. Just change the parts they don't like... hmm... :smallwink:

Yes, it is a game. A Role-Playing Game (i.e. we assume roles that we are not). The challenge is to play something that you are not, and do things that you don't get to do.

Done properly, RPG can widen your perspective, gives you another point of view, to literally see things from another creature's eyes in a controlled environment.

So, you are given an alignment that you don't normally choose. Experience it. Of course, if you are the type that always claimed to be 'good' (while slaying monsters and NPCs left and right) being called evil can be a hard pill to swallow. :smallfurious:

Ditch the character then. :smallbiggrin: Create another. Explain to the DM that you are having a breakdown because you now get to do what you normally do every other game legitimately.:smalltongue:

However, alignment change can be handle by both DMs and Players in ways that bring new dimension to games. You saw it in movies. The 'alternate ego' comes to mind as your character appeared to do certain 'things' while you are sleeping. The 'insanity' plot as your character hear and see things that are not quite there (humans walking down that road appeared to be orges on a killing spree - someone 'has' to stop them). I agree that the DMs have to be a bit creative, and have their players guessing a bit... (Is it really a bunch of orges? Was my friend there sleep walking or somebody else that looks like him? Does my friend has an evil twin?).

You will be surprise how even the most experience players cannot see some the things coming.:smallcool:

O'BeQuiet UWannabe.

Inane-Fedaykin
2007-08-08, 01:03 PM
Didn't he call his organization the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants?

Not in every version (mind that shows, comics and movies always have different writers) but the point is well taken. In my opinion Magneto always acts for the greater good, his usual motivation is to promote pro mutant policy.
We're not getting into an allignment discussion about this because we're not going to hijack the thread.

nagora
2007-08-08, 01:12 PM
I am conniseur of D&D (as in I know the rules, but I have no one to play it with) and this has been troubleing me. Specifically, the fact that a afflicted lycan changes alignment. I have no problems with your character losing control of herself around the full moon, but, shouldn't it get better over time, not worse?

Also, I take issue with the fact that lycans even HAVE a base alignment to begin with (animals not being capable of moral decisons), and the fact that the alignments themselves make no sense. Take werewolves, for instance. The "Evil" part is nonsensical beacuse wolves are very kind to other wolves, and a predator needs to eat to survive. The "Chaotic" part? I've got two words that show why that makes even less sense: Pack animal.

Plus, the reason that Wizards gives ("The alignment of lycanthropes is determined by people's perceptions of them") is unbeliveably confusing ("How is a natural force decided by how people percive it?", "If I populated a continent with Stephen Colbert clones, would the werebears from that area be NE?" etc.) so if you may answer this question:
Should the RAW on lycanthropes be rewritten?

This lycan fan awaits your answers!

Well, I have no problem with you running a game with that approach but werewolves in mythology and folklore are not only evil but usually chaotic (hating each other and not running in packs, although there are exceptions) and traditionally get worse over time, not better. It is a CURSE of the werewolf, after all, not the Really Great Combat Feat of the Werewolf.

Wolves are many things but they are not werewolves. If you want to get into the whole "well, wolves are nice" idea then consider this: perhaps one point to be made with the werewolf story is that combining the natures of two separate things creates a monster and that the wolf part would (if it could be separated from the human part) claim that all the evil it did was caused by the human part, who after all symbolises everything that the wolf fears.

Lycanthropy that can be passed on should always be a disadvantage to non-evil characters. Otherwise everyone would want it and have it. Which is another valid idea for a game world, but hardly mainstream.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-08-08, 01:12 PM
Personaly I am of the opinion that a player shouldn't have something like lycanthropy pushed upon them without their consent. If the player and DM agree OOC to allow it then ok, but and this is a big but it must be with the players consent. OK i understand that lycans can't control who they attak and all that stuff (acording to some mythos about them) but make healing eazy and part of the reward for a character completeing a quest. after all, making a player take 3 levels (and thats for a wererat not even a full werewolf) dedicated to something you as a DM decide makes no sense. any large template i would say is not apropriate to push on a player unless they agree to it.

Jasdoif
2007-08-08, 01:28 PM
Yes, it is a game. A Role-Playing Game (i.e. we assume roles that we are not). The challenge is to play something that you are not, and do things that you don't get to do.You might notice that role-playing games typically involve people picking roles they're willing to play. And that, with the prevalence of rules and mechanics in the game, the way they portray their character is the most unrestricted outlet of their creativity they have.

If you want to curse them, find, but do it mechanically. Don't shove an unagreeable mindset on them. If you're doing that, you don't need the players.

Nevar
2007-08-08, 01:32 PM
IMO Lycantrhops are fun to play. You have a chance of resisting turning into a differant form. As for me I usually play it that if you are activly acting to remove teh curse while in human form you keep your allignement. However if you ever lose controle of yourself then for that period of time you are an NPC. While it may suck for that duration of time it'll make you more determined to controle yourself and obtain the cure.

nagora
2007-08-08, 01:38 PM
IMO Lycantrhops are fun to play. You have a chance of resisting turning into a differant form. As for me I usually play it that if you are activly acting to remove teh curse while in human form you keep your allignement. However if you ever lose controle of yourself then for that period of time you are an NPC. While it may suck for that duration of time it'll make you more determined to controle yourself and obtain the cure.

Look: a voice of sanity! Stone him!

tainsouvra
2007-08-08, 01:55 PM
I don't know if anyone ever did a study and come up with some stats as to whether the majority of insane people get better or not... Ignoring that "insane" is a legal term and sticking with various sorts of mental illness, I do know, and the answer is a resounding "it depends" :smalltongue:

In the absence of treatment, things like schizophrenia tend to get worse until they hit a (low) equilibrium point, things like depression tend to come and go, and things like bipolar2 tend to be loopy in new and different ways each day.
With treatment, things like schizophrenia tend to be muted to the point that most people don't realize they're crazy, things like depression tend to just stop, and things like bipolar2 tend to come and go according to whether or not they took their meds this week.

(This tangent brought to you by the letter P.)

Linking this back to the topic at hand, if you dramatically exaggerate (it's D&D, what don't we exaggerate for drama?) bipolar2, it actually gives a good idea of why alignment would change from lycanthropy. The chaotic alignment-shift is pretty easy to explain in that regard, and the alternate form's wantonly-violent tendencies do tend to match an evil alignment...as a DM, I'd probably rule their alignment according to how much they've been cycling and how far CE is from their normal alignment, but it's a pretty strong trend toward CE if you don't get treatment.

DrummingDM
2007-08-08, 02:00 PM
In my game, if you contract lycanthropy, and don't want to play a lycanthropic character, you roll up a new character. I won't punish you by making you start a level lower than the party, or anything else. You had bad luck, contracted a disease that radically alters the nature of your character, and for that I'm sorry...but them's the breaks, as they say.

I view a lycanthropic curse as being akin to PC death. Sure, it sucks. But it happens. Deal with it, and I'll try to make it as easy for you as I can, within reason.

Wolfbite
2007-08-08, 02:02 PM
IMO Lycantrhops are fun to play. You have a chance of resisting turning into a differant form. As for me I usually play it that if you are activly acting to remove teh curse while in human form you keep your allignement. However if you ever lose controle of yourself then for that period of time you are an NPC. While it may suck for that duration of time it'll make you more determined to controle yourself and obtain the cure.

Yeah, couldn't agree more. If you give into the curse then you'd be evil. And I think the whole chaotic evil thing originally stemmed from the lack of control and the whole tendency to go on murderous rampages.

I always felt if the players were brave/foolish enough to risk were-creature battles, then they could deal with any consequences that may arise. It has the potential to be a great avenue for Roleplaying.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-08-08, 02:30 PM
the alignment change is nice sometimes, I was in a party that was LN leaning suposedly and in the first session the LN greed dragon decided that since someone said that the major green dragon in the area was evil (which he was but also said character's father) she would slaughter the whole bar. Needless to say she became quite CN but DM decided that slaughtering someone for saying the truth was not evil. So my character exalted NG bard was sick of the party and ploted to kill them untill DM told me OOC i couldn't do it even thought it was inside the rules. so i convinced DM to make me were-wolf so i could then match the parties alignment.

Leliel
2007-08-08, 06:22 PM
Um... About that post about werewolves being "Chaotic and usually evil" in mythology(sry about not quoting it).
I just have to say that in many of those stories, the werewolves were evil sorcerers who sold thier soul to the devil to gain thier powers, which obviously does not happen in D&D. Besides, this is only true in European folklore, and isn't even entirely true-in many early stories, the werewolf was a good person who was cursed by the devil or a witch, and retained their morals and mind while transformed. There's also a rather famous folktale about a good werewolf. I think its mentioned as an example of werewolf stories on Wikipedia. I may be a little biased about it(as I said, I am a lycan fan)but you can see why I'm puzzled. And about me referencing ordnairy wolves as examples of werewolf behavior, I think werewolves would have some similarities to wolves, don't you think?

Oh, and if the concern is about munchkins, I would think thats its possible for the DM to, you know, ban them? Yes, it is possible for the DM to monitor his own game. The horror. The horror.

tainsouvra
2007-08-08, 06:25 PM
Short answer: the rules, as they are written, do make sense. As a DM, however, you can change whatever the heck you want to what makes sense to you and your players.

If you want good werewolves, go for it.

Leliel
2007-08-08, 06:39 PM
Well, I have no problem with you running a game with that approach but werewolves in mythology and folklore are not only evil but usually chaotic (hating each other and not running in packs, although there are exceptions) and traditionally get worse over time, not better. It is a CURSE of the werewolf, after all, not the Really Great Combat Feat of the Werewolf.

Snip

Lycanthropy that can be passed on should always be a disadvantage to non-evil characters. Otherwise everyone would want it and have it. Which is another valid idea for a game world, but hardly mainstream.

There is a nice way to counteract this. I can see it now...
DM: As you approch the door to the dungeon a voice eminates from it: "I only open for those who number among those creatues they were born as. One among you has become a different being. You will not pass until he has clensed himself".

Afflicted Lycanthrope: Crap. I was starting to like this.:smallfrown:

Doesn't work if you have an elan PC, but an interesting plot hook nonetheless.

Serenity
2007-08-08, 06:49 PM
An afflicted lycanthrope's alignment only changes if it changes form deliberately. You want to play a good character struggling against his curse, great. You want to play a good character who has wolf form as a combat option? No dice. He's letting a savage killer take over his body, a monstrous mindset that won't distinguish between friend and foe, guilty and innocent.

Natural lycanthropes, who have control over their actions in all forms, can be of any alignment. Or so says a Dragon article I read shortly before designing a team of monstrous PCs for a very short-lived 20th level campaign.

Leliel
2007-08-08, 06:57 PM
An afflicted lycanthrope's alignment only changes if it changes form deliberately. You want to play a good character struggling against his curse, great. You want to play a good character who has wolf form as a combat option? No dice. He's letting a savage killer take over his body, a monstrous mindset that won't distinguish between friend and foe, guilty and innocent.

Ehh...That wasn't what I was asking. And yes, an afflicted lycan's alignment does change wether or not volintarily, if he fails a Will save. And even in RAW this argument dosent hold water(Werebear. Lawful Good). Also, I think it is implied that a natural lycanthrope is usually the listed alignment

Serenity
2007-08-08, 07:40 PM
'Usually' being the operative word there...

And yes, there is the Will save on the change too--which would be the monstrous instincts taking over--or the good instincts in the case of werebears and the like. Voluntarily changing represents acceptance of the desires of your other form and voluntarily giving them free reign, hence there's no save against the alignment change in such a case.

Tallis
2007-08-08, 07:42 PM
Werewolves have been seen as evil by the majority of the poulace for a long time. Even in the old tales where the werewolf is a good hearted person who has been cursed the affliction is the result of evil. The idea is that the carnivorous nature of wolves is amplified into a homicidal rage in werewolves. The curse forces a loss of control when they transform and thus a chaotic evil alignment.
If they choose to accept their curse and don't take steps to protect others when they transform then they are allowing themselves to commit evil, thus changing their normal alignment.
Unfortunately the books don't take into account those that fight the curse and take steps to restrain themselves when they transform. In my games I let them retain their normal alignment when not transformed.
As for the other lyncanthropes alignments: they were created, by and large, for D&D so they are what the creators say they are. I never really understood the werebears are good thing myself.

That said, if you don't like the way it works change it. It's your game so in the end it works the way you want it to.