How much damage is enough?

[gooddragon1]

This question is both a question and a discussion. It is also in two parts: pre-epic and epic. Each of those parts could even be broken up further (levels 1-20/DM perspective/player perspective/homebrew perspective, and epic/"epic beyond epic... thunder hooooooo").

For the first part, how do you determine how much damage is enough?

For the second part, I feel like the only way I can think of to keep up in the HD*Con Mod race in epic would be to take be a crusader (their smite is an ex ability) and take the great smiting epic feat a lot of times.

This branching question is open ended, I'm just curious for many different perspectives from DM's, players, homebrewers, etc. There are no wrong answers.

Note: Damage is not dakka.

[RoboEmperor]

Enough to one shot everything, especially in epic levels. In epic levels you get one shotted. Those Epic creatures are ludicrously powerful with phenomenal damage output, ridiculous hp, AC and DR with a bunch of immunities, and has a bunch of special abilities that makes them either impossible to kill or one shot you even harder. Try fighting Abominations who summon optimized dragons.

Pre-Epic you can never have enough damage. It's a race. Who can kill each other faster? And usually, the outnumbered guy loses, so if you're outnumbered 2:1, the only way you'll survive is cleaving everything in half while the wizard stalls the others from surrounding you and killing you.

Higher levels, it's partly due to all the Save-or-Dies the opponents have. Beholders and Hydras can and will one shot your party members, while Balor's Implosion bypasses all immunities.

It's all on the wizard to go first or use Celerity, divide and stall the opponents, and protect the damage dealers as they capsize their defenses for damage.

Once you are one shotting everything, investing in more damage is pointless.

[Kayblis]

I assume we're talking TO. In actual play, having too much damage just makes you "that a-hole that ruins people's fun". In general, normal play needs some challenge to be entertaining.

As a general rule, if you're one-shotting stuff 2 CRs above you, you're fine. At higher levels you'll start fighting more and more critters with SoDs and SoLs, so having more attacks, area attacks or a Cleave-like ability are welcome.

As an example, by level 10 you'll need to deal about 250 damage in a single round, and will find great use in having ~3 attacks of 80+ damage when not using your OHKO. Undeads are some of the biggest HP sacks around, but they rarely have SoDs AND a large HD count. If you can achieve 250+ damage by other means, like a pouncing charger with 8 attacks dealing 35 damage each, you're also fine. Just remember to pack your DR-bypassing gear or all that will go to waste.

Numbers don't get crazy until you reach epic. There, anything that scales with level will be the only usable stuff and you'll certainly see less OHKOs. Your Power Attack build will start packing less of a punch as your BAB stalls and the amount of new modifiers to stack plummets as you've taken nearly all of them. It's time to expand your build with some other damage-focused methods. Or get epic spells and solve every problem that way.

[RoboEmperor]

I assume we're talking TO. In actual play, having too much damage just makes you "that a-hole that ruins people's fun".

It depends. If it's a 6 on 1 fight and the guy just oneshots the 1, then yeah you're right, fun is ruined. But if it's like a 6 on 6 fight with spellcasters then no, you gotta somehow snipe those spellcasters a.s.a.p. or at least kill their damage dealers. Otherwise their AoE BFC magics or their AoE blasting magic and SoDs are gonna TPK your party. Nothing says "You're dead" like enemy spellcasters casting the BFC spells you wanted to cast on you guys first before you thin their damage output. If you managed to reduce the fight to 6 on 4 when that Evard's Black Tentacle hits your party, then you might win, but if you're not killing at least 1 guy every round through focus fire, it's gonna be tough.

[Afgncaap5]

I assume we're talking TO. In actual play, having too much damage just makes you "that a-hole that ruins people's fun". In general, normal play needs some challenge to be entertaining.

Yeah. Every once in a while, I toss in a monster that doesn't have hitpoints at all so much as it has a "Can you hit it X many times" qualifier (with weak, average, grievous, and insane damage all amounting to different numbers of times.) Against a monster like that, it becomes less about how much damage, but about how well-placed that damage can be.

In TO terms, though...


Maxim 25: If the damage you do is covered by a manufacturer's warranty, you didn't do enough damage.

That might be a decent starting point.

[King of Nowhere]

As an example, by level 10 you'll need to deal about 250 damage in a single round

Numbers don't get crazy until you reach epic.

This is entriely a matter of perspective. To me, 250 damage in one round is already crazy enough.

[Afgncaap5]

This is entriely a matter of perspective. To me, 250 damage in one round is already crazy enough.

Yeah. Coming from a pretty unoptimized table, 250 dpr sounds ludicrous. I've seen players pull it off on lucky crits with weapon-like spells, or from an entire team working together, but for a single person that's not really a thing for me to deal with most of the time.

[Zanos]

This is entriely a matter of perspective. To me, 250 damage in one round is already crazy enough.
Yeah, 250 damage per round to a single target at level 10 is a bit over what I'd expect.

I guess it varies by table, but I've never really been at a table where a character just one shots every APL + 2 CR thing in the MM and everyone was cool with that.

[flappeercraft]

If you're made to deal damage I would go as a rule of the thumb around ECL*25 damage per round. At levels 1-5 probably more around ECL*3+6

[INoKnowNames]

The only time I've ever sat down at a table (for lack of a better term) and was about to roll to see if I could do 300 damage to someone with maybe 80 hp (given that said damage would have been broken up into multiple hits that might have missed and/or resisted), it was because PVP was about to break out, and I'd sooner kill a problem player than let him murder a friend for self-righteous reasons.

In most cases, the above should be a frowned-upon scenario.

The answer to the op question, meanwhile, is usually dependent on the table and the abilities of the characters. I'd expect in an equal level encounter for a martial character to be able to take off around 40 to 60% of an enemy's health per hit, and the challenge to be how many of those hits can land consistently, at least in low to mid op. In high op, instant-kills are probably to be beyond expected, and in the theoretical stage, damage is meaningless and trivial.

So yeah, it all depends on your Dm and Group.

[Eldariel]

I mean, there are lots of ways to buff your HP too (Vigor + Share Pain is quite efficient for instance). If you can do enough damage to oneshot everything in game (I built a level 11 Cleric shell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314454-3-5-Cleric-Charger) to do enough to oneshot a Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires), the highest HP printed in the game), chances are you'll be fighting things bloating their HP, things potentially immune to physical damage, and most importantly things where the trick is not doing the damage but actually landing a hit in the first place (pre-epic casters in perfectly normal PO are already like this) making it kinda pointless. I would avoid stacking multipliers on stuff like charge and stacking too many attack enhancers, nigh' infinite comboes like Lightning Maces + Crossbows, etc. You can generally do just fine without and those tend to push the damage limits beyond what the system can easily accommodate. Even with 0 work, you're looking at a scenario where one full attack can more or less kill anything from your average monster or character, so you don't want to push that much further (particularly once characters decide to start getting full attacks at will).

At such a point you just need to put enough work into your character to kill anything in one hit and spend rest of the time figuring out how to play the contingency game and get an attack edgewise and bypass all the possible miss chances and immunities and such, and counter autorevives and so on. Even Neutronium Golem (https://1d4chan.org/images/4/43/Neutronium_golem_page.png) can be one-round killed with non-infinite damage (let alone any truly infinite loop, such as Jovoc + damage reflection (http://secretsofthearchmages.net/Threads/WOTC/2008/D20%20Design%20-%20Theoritical%20Optimization/573196.html) or even just a well-built charger), but rarely is such damage needed or even useful. For games where such might be needed, you can just respec your character in one round with Psychic Reformation, Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle and such to do it and then spec back when the job is done.

[Barstro]

I assume we're talking TO. In actual play, having too much damage just makes you "that a-hole that ruins people's fun". In general, normal play needs some challenge to be entertaining.

Agreed. IMO, the real question is; how much AC, miss chance, DR x/- is enough? Drawn out fights are scary, but short fights are boring no matter who wins.

[gooddragon1]

Agreed. IMO, the real question is; how much AC, miss chance, DR x/- is enough? Drawn out fights are scary, but short fights are boring no matter who wins.

Maybe, but also how much "combat effectiveness" do you need on the other side of that coin?

I'm hearing interesting things about combat not being entirely damage based which worries me for a simple bruiser who just wants to hit things a lot like kenpachi in bleach.

[Kayblis]

Maybe, but also how much "combat effectiveness" do you need on the other side of that coin?

I'm hearing interesting things about combat not being entirely damage based which worries me for a simple bruiser who just wants to hit things a lot like kenpachi in bleach.

If you want to have a simple bruiser solely focused on damage, you'll need to invest in stuff that nullifies resistances and NOPE-cards. This means ways to bypass many forms of DR (or just skip DR altogether, like some ToB maneuvers), unusual movement types (swim, fly and burrow speed for some, teleporting as a bonus), ways to deny protections (cover, concealment, invisibility, all that jazz) and most certainly some form of defense against abilities that hamper your movements and actions (Freedom of Movement is the first choice, Iron Heart Surge from ToB is the most effective).

Many of those can be accomplished by magic items, so no need for feat investment there. Anti-Magic Fields are a double-edged sword, as you deny most of an enemy's powers while at the same time denying yourself most of your own bonuses and ways to deal with problems.

A big chunk of a clever spellcaster's job is denying the simple bruiser his right to bruise. If your opponent has you stuck in place 50ft from him, no amount of sword-swinging will help you. Making yourself able to swing a weapon at someone is about as important as having the ludicrous damage you need to one-shot it.

[Barstro]

Maybe, but also how much "combat effectiveness" do you need on the other side of that coin?
Personal preference; not much.

I like the long fights where strategy needs to be reevaluated and the casters have to play conservatively and save spells for the next potential conflict.

Your sense of joy may vary.

[OldTrees1]

Bwhahaha :smallbiggrin:

DPS and enemy health scale with the optimization level of the table. As the PCs are optimized to be stronger and stronger overall, the DM starts to plan the campaign to include the PCs overcoming stronger and stronger enemies. As such, damage output is not a concern.

What remains a concern is tradeoffs. When a character specializes in an aspect, the DM will want to reward that by having the PC remain stronger in their specialization. At your table's optimization level, is gaining/losing X DPS worth losing/gaining some non damage means of contributing?


I usually find that characters get enough or more than enough damage as a result of byproducts of the non damage aspects they are focusing on. A martial with the Knockback feat is probably going to have a decent damage bonus as a consequence of getting a decent bullrush modifier.

[Melcar]

This is entriely a matter of perspective. To me, 250 damage in one round is already crazy enough.

I agree... If this is the average damage of one character at level 10, then I would indeed call that crazy. I would like to know what build yields this amount of damage at level 10...

[gooddragon1]

I agree... If this is the average damage of one character at level 10, then I would indeed call that crazy. I would like to know what build yields this amount of damage at level 10...

At level 10 I might have a fighter with 22 str, wielding a +3, collision great axe. Assuming weapon specialization and weapon mastery we are talking about a max damage output on a crit of 99. Assuming two crits, thats 198. So year I would call 250 average damage pretty sick!

Whirling Frenzy Barbarian and you've got it. But I felt like 150 average damage is level 20 and 75 average damage at level 10 would be normal. Assuming no crits and this is before damage reduction. I mean, a Pit fiend only has 225 Hp on average. It couldn't survive a 250 average damage routine.


Bwhahaha :smallbiggrin:

DPS and enemy health scale with the optimization level of the table. As the PCs are optimized to be stronger and stronger overall, the DM starts to plan the campaign to include the PCs overcoming stronger and stronger enemies. As such, damage output is not a concern.

What remains a concern is tradeoffs. When a character specializes in an aspect, the DM will want to reward that by having the PC remain stronger in their specialization. At your table's optimization level, is gaining/losing X DPS worth losing/gaining some non damage means of contributing?


I usually find that characters get enough or more than enough damage as a result of byproducts of the non damage aspects they are focusing on. A martial with the Knockback feat is probably going to have a decent damage bonus as a consequence of getting a decent bullrush modifier.

As for this part, what if you have different party members with wildly different damage outputs? Though it's good to see that DM's try to scale encounters.

[Coretron03]

I agree... If this is the average damage of one character at level 10, then I would indeed call that crazy. I would like to know what build yields this amount of damage at level 10...

Well, if you took a dip into barbarian for Whirling Frenzy and pounce and used a Valorous weapon (Double damage on charge) and was mounted with the spirted charge feat I would imagine you could get close. But thats beside the point.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Melcar]

Well, if you took a dip into barbarian for Whirling Frenzy and pounce and used a Valorous weapon (Double damage on charge) and was mounted with the spirted charge feat I would imagine you could get close. But thats beside the point.

Right... but at level 10 it just seems like a lot. And a dwarven fighter at that level will have something like 135-145 hp (assuming 24 Con).

[RoboEmperor]

As for this part, what if you have different party members with wildly different damage outputs?

If this is the case you should either ask the higher damage output guy to tone down his character significantly, or you help the low damage guy increase his damage output significantly.

Party members with wildly different damage outputs is always a very, very bad idea because it either makes one player hog the game, or makes one player feel like deadweight and lose the will to play.

[OldTrees1]

As for this part, what if you have different party members with wildly different damage outputs? Though it's good to see that DM's try to scale encounters.

That was partially addressed in the tradeoff section.

Topic 1 (Interparty Imbalance):
Once the party's overall strength has determined the challenges they can be expected to overcome, all remaining differences in damage output between characters are a result of the different specialization choices. The DM then tries to choose challenges that match the expected challenge level while also not nullifying the specialization choices of the PCs. This will flatten out but might not eliminate any difference in the optimization level of one character vs another.

Interparty imbalance can still exist but it is not a matter of damage (the party does enough), instead it means the weaker character's specialization tradeoffs could be buffed.

Topic 2 (Balanced Party, but with polarized specializations):
You have a party where some people contribute with damage and some contribute with non damage contributions. Sure the damage outputs are wildly different but that is intended. A raging berserker and a giant are a party. The berserker can deal much more damage than the giant, but the giant is primarily concerned with using their attacks for battlefield control.


So, excepting traps, you will be dealing enough damage.

[Fouredged Sword]

In my mind, most DPS characters should be able to kill themselves within one round. 10xHD damage seems about right for how high you should really consider toneing it down.

[King of Nowhere]

As for this part, what if you have different party members with wildly different damage outputs? Though it's good to see that DM's try to scale encounters.

In this case it sucks to be a DM. My general solutions are
- having the party find more powerful class-specific items for those who are lagging behind
- making sure those who are lagging behind in damage still can be effective in their own way (like, a cleric can't keep up with the damge, but as long as he's the best at buffs and cc then it's ok)
- making enemies that are somewhat resistant to the powerful character (like increasing the AC does penalize a fighter but not a mage, and viceversa for increasing saving throws)

[Soranar]

250 by level 10 does seem like a lot

My mounted warforged scout paladin build would do

1d6 (small lance) 3.5+
1.5 STR (9)+
15 (power attack twohanded)+
10 (smite)+
so about 35.5 damage x 5 (lance + valorous+ spirited charge+ rhino's rush spell)
for about 177.5 damage per charge (obviously DR was a non issue since it only applies once)

when I faced a minion I'd keep my smite and rhino's rush spells which would cut my damage almost in half
3.5 (lance)+ 9 (STR) + 15 (power attack) x 4 = 110

During most of my game that was plenty of damage. One shotting a big bad was the norm but at least it used up daily resources (spell+smite)
which makes a DM see it as more reasonable than a character who can just do that all day against anything (smite is restricted to evil only , and in this case construct due to substitution levels)

And sometimes my attack would fail (you can always roll a 1)

[ExLibrisMortis]

In a 4v4 situation, the party needs to drop one enemy per round. So you need to one-shot CR -2 enemies consistently, as a party. (Four CR -2 monsters make up a CR +2 encounter, which is the hardest you should ordinarily face.)

Assuming you have one non-damaging party member (god wizard, healbot) and two half-damaging party members (lockdown crusaders, dragonfire adepts), you need to deal about half such a monster's hp per round, and the half-damaging party members take care of another quarter each. While doing this, the non-damaging party member and some of the half-damaging member's efforts go towards survival.

While this reasoning makes some sense, in practice, you can trade a good deal of survival ability for MORE DAMAGE, because dead monsters are no threat. You could say that the "half CR -2 hp/round" is the expected minimum.

[Gruftzwerg]

How much damage is enough?
Imho the question is wrong..

The question should be: "How many opponents should I be able to drop/kill per round". You can have 1shot builds starting even at lvl1 up till epic. So "enough" is when you can 1shot em.

But as said, the more important question is, how many you can drop per round. And how flexible is your application of dmg (e.g. charge conditions or crit builds)? Can you do high dmg every turn? And on how many targets per turn. Which reach (including mobility as reach for melee builds) can you cover with your dmg? And last but not least, try to reduce miss chances due to magic/concealment/incorporeal (depending on plot & DM may be unnecessary).

[Kaleph]

Bwhahaha :smallbiggrin:

DPS and enemy health scale with the optimization level of the table. As the PCs are optimized to be stronger and stronger overall, the DM starts to plan the campaign to include the PCs overcoming stronger and stronger enemies. As such, damage output is not a concern.

What remains a concern is tradeoffs. When a character specializes in an aspect, the DM will want to reward that by having the PC remain stronger in their specialization. At your table's optimization level, is gaining/losing X DPS worth losing/gaining some non damage means of contributing?


I usually find that characters get enough or more than enough damage as a result of byproducts of the non damage aspects they are focusing on. A martial with the Knockback feat is probably going to have a decent damage bonus as a consequence of getting a decent bullrush modifier.

I agree with you. Also, focusing too much in DPS as your main aspect of specialization in a real game, may bring you to the point, where the in-Party imbalance and the Damage-vs-HP imbalance cannot be easily solved by a DM without breaking Grod's law.

You make a lock-down+übercharger+huge size+improved cleave build, that kills or debuffs all enemies in round 1?
The master replies with:

Difficult terrain
Flying monsters
Monsters that cannot be tripped
Elusive target feat
Incorporeal enemies
Hidden floor traps + grease
Spells that target your weakest save and prevent you from moving
Sessions without any combat event
Start again with point 1.

[Melcar]

In a 4v4 situation, the party needs to drop one enemy per round.

Why? I see nowhere in the rules (or common sense) that says that a 4 vs 4 fight should only take 7 rounds! (Much less 4 rounds if the enemy isn't dropping any friendlies) Could you elaborate this position?

[Pex]

If dealing damage is the focus of your character, enough damage is relative to the foes you are facing. Mooks are to be killed in one round, max two. Lieutenants are to be killed in 2 to 4 rounds with the occasional critical hit making it one or two and 4 rounds for the Lieutenants who mean something to the PCs. BBEGs should take 5 rounds in a vanilla fight or otherwise damage should be of a significant threat the BBEG has to spend time on defense dealing with it. The character mattered.

If damage is not the focus of your character but still of some value, enough damage is 60% to 75% of the damage being done by the main damage dealers.

If damage is just something to do for a round so you at least contribute something because you're saving resources or for this one particular combat your main attack routine won't work, then one healing potion or spell's worth of damage will suffice.

[Bucky]

You make a lock-down+übercharger+huge size+improved cleave build, that kills or debuffs all enemies in round 1?
The master replies with:

Difficult terrain
Flying monsters
Monsters that cannot be tripped
Elusive target feat
Incorporeal enemies
Hidden floor traps + grease
Spells that target your weakest save and prevent you from moving
Sessions without any combat event
Start again with point 1.


I have a list of particularly interesting encounter archetypes, 10 total. Three of them inherently mitigate a cleave-charge build through pure tactics.

Two of them can have the turn 1 charge+cleave threat mitigated by enemy tactics, namely starting the fight spread out. But both involve several melee enemies so the charger will still contribute plenty.

One encounter is meant for a level-range before the ubercharger build comes fully online, and the charger's effectiveness would depend on other details of the build.

Three happen to take place in cramped spaces where a Huge charger can't charge. A smaller charger would be very effective in two and less effective in the third, which is the only encounter on the list to have floor traps.

That leaves one of the ten that folds to an optimized size-boosted charger. It has anti-charge terrain features, but the charger should have Leap Attack or some other way to bypass them.

In summary, my methods for making encounters 'interesting' also tend to make them resistant to straightforward solo melee DPS.

[Gruftzwerg]

You make a lock-down+übercharger+huge size+improved cleave build, that kills or debuffs all enemies in round 1?
The master replies with:

Difficult terrain
Flying monsters
Monsters that cannot be tripped
Elusive target feat
Incorporeal enemies
Hidden floor traps + grease
Spells that target your weakest save and prevent you from moving
Sessions without any combat event
Start again with point 1.


get flying yourself
see 1.
who needs knockdown, if it dies in a single hit?
not many enemies will have this feat. further the enemy needs to remain dodge bonus to make it work. Easily to come by, by negating the enemy Dex bonus (e.g. invisible/stealth.. whatsoever)
as soon you are getting into higher lvls, all mundane melees should have a way to deal with this (unless your plot/story/adventure is almost free of incorporeal enemies). Otherwise you are doing it wrong.
see 1. again.
Get Iron Heart Surge into your charge build to deal with this stuff.
won't be to many in most d&d groups


Imho most things mentioned the Charger can deal with easily (if build right). And only a few halfway reliable options left.

[Soranar]

I agree with you. Also, focusing too much in DPS as your main aspect of specialization in a real game, may bring you to the point, where the in-Party imbalance and the Damage-vs-HP imbalance cannot be easily solved by a DM without breaking Grod's law.

You make a lock-down+übercharger+huge size+improved cleave build, that kills or debuffs all enemies in round 1?
The master replies with:

Difficult terrain
Flying monsters
Monsters that cannot be tripped
Elusive target feat
Incorporeal enemies
Hidden floor traps + grease
Spells that target your weakest save and prevent you from moving
Sessions without any combat event
Start again with point 1.


If you compare my mounted charger build to this list

1 mount has magical item to fly or can fly itself
2 see 1
3 don't trip, just kill
4 even without power attack you deal a significant amount of damage (especially if you smite), this is also a rare feat
5 magical lance should always cover incorporeal enemies
6 see 1
7 being a paladin, this is unlikely to work but it happens
8 happens, not your role to fill

[Kaleph]

Does it mean that many of you would never understand the intended meaning of a post, or just that you're not really trying?

[Soranar]

As a DM I don't find uberchargers that problematic to deal with simply because I rarely have my players face a single powerful enemy and few players invest in cleave and great cleave

Also PCs are not the only ones capable of battlefield control

Engaging an ubercharger in a grapple might get you killed in the long run but it's probably going to keep the ubercharger busy for a while. And if a bunch of weak enemies do it together they can also use aid another to boost their rating until they can get the job done (say a bunch of kobolds)

summons can also act as meatshields to keep the beatstick busy

invisible or sneaking enemies can still kill the ubercharger and have a legitimate reason to target him first

finally there's all the regular tricks of the trade like tripping and save of suck abilities

The problem with uberchargers is when they're high enough level to have a defense against nearly everything (flight, mind blank, freedom of movement etc) by level 10 most you tend to have some kind of defense against those things, by level 15 you wouldn't have made it to level 15 without all of those defenses but that's also why high level play becomes problematic

by epic levels... everything becomes a game of rocket tag and uberchargers need to reach TO levels of damage to remain relevant

[Bucky]

Is there an effective "defense" against disposable minions stepping in front of your charge?

[Mehangel]

Personally if a player's average damage is no more than twice that of monsters whose CR is one less than their HD, I am fine.

For example, assuming the character is built for DPS (and not including any critical hits):
a level 1 character shouldn't really need to be dealing more than 8 damage on average per round.
a level 5 character shouldn't really need to be dealing more than 32 damage on average per round.
a level 10 character shouldn't really need to be dealing more than 80 damage on average per round.
a level 15 character shouldn't really need to be dealing more than 130 damage on average per round.
a level 20 character shouldn't really need to be dealing more than 220 damage on average per round.

I utilize the table found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation/) to determine the average damage of monsters of a particular CR (accurate or inaccurate as it may be). I also use it to determine if a player's AC or To Hit ratio is higher or lower than average.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Why? I see nowhere in the rules (or common sense) that says that a 4 vs 4 fight should only take 7 rounds! (Much less 4 rounds if the enemy isn't dropping any friendlies) Could you elaborate this position?
Well, it's not a rule, or even an official guideline, just my answer to the OP's question. It's what I estimate WotC assumed a good party would achieve, based on a few indicators: monster round-by-round tactics*, durations of certain abilities (Rage, Inspire Courage, cooldown between vestige abilities), monster hp versus low-OP damage output, and the ability of PCs to tank hits. Of course, if you build that super sneaky hit-and-run party that relies exclusively on Death Attacks and stealth, you're going to take way more than four rounds, but generally, I think a five-round combat is about what WotC assumed (that's twenty PC turns and twenty monster turns, so it's not exactly short, either).

If you look at basic (more-or-less pitched battle) encounters, the one-round-per-enemy guideline works out well enough.
It means your ECL 2 party will kill, on average, one of the four CR 1/2 orcs per round (5 hp each, AC 13), which is not particularly high-OP.
It means your ECL 6 party will kill one gargoyle/minotaur/otyugh per round (about 35-40 hp each, AC 14-17), which is, again, not terribly high-OP.
For ECL 11 parties, the difference between high-HD enemies and low-HD enemies becomes really big: rocs and bone devils are both CR 9, though rocs are just bags of hp (207 hp, AC 17), whereas bone devils are dangerous (95 hp, AC 25, DR 10/good, SR 21, fire immunity, resistances, intelligent, has actual abilities). Killing the bone devil takes a few special abilities (to overcome DR, lock it down, whatnot), and killing the roc takes different abilities (pure +damage and flight), but as long as you have that flexibility, you should be able to maintain your one-per-round average.

Anyway, to wrap up your question in another way: If you kill much faster, you don't have much of a fight at all. If you kill much slower, monsters and PCs are barely dangerous to one another.



*Monster tactics typically spell out 4-5 rounds, then offer a choice: run away or mop up. Basically, the fight should be decided by round 5, or Mr. Pit Fiend is out of here.

[Melcar]

Personally if a player's average damage is no more than twice that of monsters whose CR is one less than their HD, I am fine.

a level 1 character shouldn't really need to be dealing more than 8 damage on average per round.
a level 5 character shouldn't really need to be dealing more than 32 damage on average per round.




How is a level 5 going to damage that much more, while not gaining more attack or vastly more powerful items, which is at max going to be something like +2?


Well, it's not a rule, or even an official guideline, just my answer to the OP's question. It's what I estimate WotC assumed a good party would achieve, based on a few indicators: monster round-by-round tactics*, durations of certain abilities (Rage, Inspire Courage, cooldown between vestige abilities), monster hp versus low-OP damage output, and the ability of PCs to tank hits. Of course, if you build that super sneaky hit-and-run party that relies exclusively on Death Attacks and stealth, you're going to take way more than four rounds, but generally, I think a five-round combat is about what WotC assumed (that's twenty PC turns and twenty monster turns, so it's not exactly short, either).

If you look at basic (more-or-less pitched battle) encounters, the one-round-per-enemy guideline works out well enough.
It means your ECL 2 party will kill, on average, one of the four CR 1/2 orcs per round (5 hp each, AC 13), which is not particularly high-OP.
It means your ECL 6 party will kill one gargoyle/minotaur/otyugh per round (about 35-40 hp each, AC 14-17), which is, again, not terribly high-OP.
For ECL 11 parties, the difference between high-HD enemies and low-HD enemies becomes really big: rocs and bone devils are both CR 9, though rocs are just bags of hp (207 hp, AC 17), whereas bone devils are dangerous (95 hp, AC 25, DR 10/good, SR 21, fire immunity, resistances, intelligent, has actual abilities). Killing the bone devil takes a few special abilities (to overcome DR, lock it down, whatnot), and killing the roc takes different abilities (pure +damage and flight), but as long as you have that flexibility, you should be able to maintain your one-per-round average.

Anyway, to wrap up your question in another way: If you kill much faster, you don't have much of a fight at all. If you kill much slower, monsters and PCs are barely dangerous to one another.



*Monster tactics typically spell out 4-5 rounds, then offer a choice: run away or mop up. Basically, the fight should be decided by round 5, or Mr. Pit Fiend is out of here.

Killing a Roc per level? Wow... that seems like a lot... even at that level. Doesn't the ROc fight back?

You seem to consider only creatures as enemies... What about two level 10 adventure parties against each other, same level of optimization? Would you still want 1 PC or NPC to die every round?

[Mehangel]

How is a level 5 going to damage that much more, while not gaining more attack or vastly more powerful items, which is at max going to be something like +2?

I was thinking of maybe a Barbarian wielding a +2 Butchering Axe (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Butchering%2 0axe) in Rage using Power Attack, and buffed with Haste.

[Bucky]

You seem to consider only creatures as enemies... What about two level 10 adventure parties against each other, same level of optimization? Would you still want 1 PC or NPC to die every round?

That sort of encounter is boss-battle difficulty. The enemies in such an encounter are expected to be overall tougher than the routine encounters ExLibrisMortis was talking about.

If your level 10 party were up against a level 8 NPC party then, yes, you should be able to focus fire one of them down in the first round.

[OldTrees1]

I was thinking of maybe a Barbarian wielding a +2 Butchering Axe (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Butchering%2 0axe) in Rage using Power Attack, and buffed with Haste.

At 5th level the Wizard only has 2 3rd level spells(one from high Int). That is too infrequent to assume it as baseline for the Barbarian.

The Butchering Axe is an exotic weapon that increases the damage from 1d12(6.5) to 3d6(10.5) in exchange for the 1 feat or -4 attack non proficiency penalty. +4 damage does not seem worth a feat to me but perhaps they just like the weapon (or it is an investment for later).

A +2 weapon would cost almost all of a 5th level character's wealth by level. It is more reasonable to assume less than 50% of wealth by level spent on any single item.

So a Barbarian with a +1 Butchering Axe, in Rage, using Power Attack, and counting half the extra damage from haste might be a better baseline estimate for your case.

[Mehangel]

At 5th level the Wizard only has 2 3rd level spells(one from high Int). That is too infrequent to assume it as baseline for the Barbarian.

The Butchering Axe is an exotic weapon that increases the damage from 1d12(6.5) to 3d6(10.5) in exchange for the 1 feat or -4 attack non proficiency penalty. +4 damage does not seem worth a feat to me but perhaps they just like the weapon (or it is an investment for later).

A +2 weapon would cost almost all of a 5th level character's wealth by level. It is more reasonable to assume less than 50% of wealth by level spent on any single item.

So a Barbarian with a +1 Butchering Axe, in Rage, using Power Attack, and counting half the extra damage from haste might be a better baseline estimate for your case.

The point I was trying to make was that it was entirely within the realm of possibility for a level 5 character focused in DPS to deal an average of 32 damage each round without excessive optimization. Ofcourse in my games we utilize Spheres of Power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/), so At-Will Haste at level 1 (let alone level 5) is also entirely possible aswell.

[Melcar]

The point I was trying to make was that it was entirely within the realm of possibility for a level 5 character focused in DPS to deal an average of 32 damage each round without excessive optimization. Ofcourse in my games we utilize Spheres of Power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/), so At-Will Haste at level 1 (let alone level 5) is also entirely possible aswell.

It is possible, but pretty circumstantial I would argue. I would call that fairly high optimized. Personally I'm not used to having more that maximum +1 items at level 5. Full attack (2 attack because of haste) demands max a 5ft step... again I don't think you can keep op 32 damage as an average over lets say 10 rounds. What do you think your attack bonus would be under the circumstances your mention

[ExLibrisMortis]

Killing a Roc per level? Wow... that seems like a lot... even at that level. Doesn't the ROc fight back?
Well, yes, but weakly. A roc's full attack is for a total of 2d8+4d6+30 (avg. 53 dmg) if all attacks hit, which is not bad. But rocs fight on the wing, and that limits them to a single talon attack for 2d6+12 (av. 19 dmg), plus Snatch on a medium or smaller creature. Very common magic, from enlarge person to freedom of movement, can reduce rocs to one cure moderate wounds per round.


You seem to consider only creatures as enemies... What about two level 10 adventure parties against each other, same level of optimization? Would you still want 1 PC or NPC to die every round?
As Bucky wrote, a single PC of ECL 10 is CR 10, so a party of ECL 10 adventurers is an EL 14 encounter--a boss fight. In such a fight, I would expect one (N)PC per round to go down, but unlike in a run-of-the-mill encounter, which has red shirt monsters, it might just be the PCs that get knocked off.

[Melcar]

As Bucky wrote, a single PC of ECL 10 is CR 10, so a party of ECL 10 adventurers is an EL 14 encounter--a boss fight. In such a fight, I would expect one (N)PC per round to go down, but unlike in a run-of-the-mill encounter, which has red shirt monsters, it might just be the PCs that get knocked off.

Would you want a boss fight to be over in 4-8 rounds? I wouldn't! I've had boss fight beyond 20 rounds... Not saying every one should be like that, but it kind of sounds to like like people are approaching combat like approaching a PvE WoW build... Not saying that's wrong, by all means if people have fun, but I'm a little surprised. I guess, we at our table just play really low optimization... Or perhaps we have another approach. At one point I tried with my wizard to end the fights before they started... I once took 10 red wizards in one round... All the other players, including the DM felt deflated to say the least.. So I stopped doing that. I found, that when I eased up, so did the DM. So now we usually never have one-shot wonders... Its just not fun for us.

Though... I still think some of the apparent average damage output of some low level characters here are exaggerations... But then again, knowing Pun Pun comes online at level 1, so too can any number of damage be possible... :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Would you want a boss fight to be over in 4-8 rounds? I wouldn't! I've had boss fight beyond 20 rounds...
Well, yes, if they're long rounds. Ultimately, real time matters more than number of rounds. Even boss fights shouldn't take more than two or three hours, which allows about three minutes per turn for a five-round 4v4 fight. With my current group, a 20-round fight would take an entire session (they're not experienced players), and that's just a waste. After all, the plot has to keep moving.

[Bucky]

3 minutes per turn sounds long to me. OTOH, I've had full-session boss fights before, and they're nice and epic for a once-per-campaign climax.

[Hackulator]

How many hit points do your enemies have?

That much.

[Gruftzwerg]

Is there an effective "defense" against disposable minions stepping in front of your charge?

"Stagger" from Drunken Master 2. Lets you freely change directions while charging. And for most situations being able to fly solves the problem too (if the enemy can't fly). Further, Stagger allows to avoid all AoO for passing threatened areas for a single Tumble DC15 roll.

__________________________________________________ __________

@ Ubercharger:
My clawlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish)build charges/pounces over a distance of 300ft, 600ft while diving (@lvl20), combined with Stagger.
Several layers of deception & perception (incl. Mindsight) will ensure that the clawlock will go first in most situations and ensure a quick 'n bloody boss kill before he vanishes back into the shadows again.

On higher lvls a good ubercharger build can be as big of a headache for DMs to handle as some optimized caster builds. The DM needs to have knowledge about high lvl tactical battlemap/ground Positioning, LoS, Terrain, Cannon Fodder, Distraction/Misleading, Illusions, Traps, high class Ambushes and whatsoever... to stop the ubercharger from wiping the enemy frontline and/or boss. Everything dies due to insane dmg values in a single hit. This forces the DM to take drastic preparations to ensure that the "boss" doesn't die on sight before he even did hold his boss monologue & did his stuff...

Typical fight with an optimized (in flexible dmg application) Ubercharger:
Once the ubercharger get his initiative (in which he has probably also invested), he'll pounce the enemy boss, kill him with his first attack and use the remaining on everything else in reach. If this didn't kill all enemies or didn't convinced the remaining to retreat, the other party members may have some fun too.

edit: it even get worser (for the DM) when you start to combine ubercharger with Bloodstorm Blade as in my ShurikeNado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526875-ShurikeNado-a-shuriken-master-build)build. Doing charge dmg on 30ft 50ft range, either a single attack on all enemies in reach (whirlwind attack), or just your regular attacks (up to 9) up to 30ft range.
edit 2: while having the lowest dps from my charge builds, my ShurikeNado build still hits for 120+dmg per attack/hit (up to 9/round) or a single 50ft AoE for 192+dmg.
my clawlock, a more decent dps build, but still not the main focus on dps, can easily hit for min.280, ~680 average and max 1076dmg. And that is just a single attack. Even most epic encounters won't stand longer than a single hit (from a halfway decent lvl 20 charger).

[gooddragon1]

Haven't seen a homebrewer's perspective yet, so here's one (clergy vigilant class in my sig)

STR 16, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 12

STR +5 Levels
STR +5 Inherent Tome
STR +6 Enhancement Item

STR 32 (+11 modifier, +16 damage two handing)

WIS +4 Inherent Tome
WIS +6 Enhancement Item

WIS 24 (+7 modifier)

Weapon:
+5 Greatsword of Collision and Aptitude

Items:
Bracers of Power Attack Boosting Damage
Rod of Lesser Quicken

Attack Accuracy
+20 Base Attack Bonus
+6 Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
+11 Strength
+7 Wisdom
+3 Divine Favor
==
+48 to hit

Attack Damage (against enemy AC 40 pit fiend)
+16 Damage STR
+11 Damage Weapon
+3 Damage Divine Favor
+2 Damage Power Attack Bracers
+20 Damage Power Attack for 10 to +38 to hit from +48 to hit (hitting on a 2)
==
52 x 3 Decisive Strike
==
156 Damage
+2 Minimum damage on 2d6
-15 DR
==
143 Damage per round at level 20 against a pit fiend

Though my damage expectations for a front line melee class at level 20 are 150 damage or less and I have a low risk tolerance. Also it fills other roles so of course it might have a little less damage than a more dedicated attacker.

[Soranar]

Is there an effective "defense" against disposable minions stepping in front of your charge?

That's when a ranged dps becomes especially interesting to have in a group. He can split his arrows between different targets (assuming he's not using manyshot) and clear a path for the charger or simply target the leader directly (say a summoner of some sort or an undead leader).

Alternatively, a charger that can switch to archery (without losing much) is a great asset to have though it's difficult to pull off (due to the resources needed to carry a decent melee weapon and a decent ranged weapon).

A swift hunter build makes a decent dps

-with the right favored enemies choices he can skirmish anything
-he gets the bonus feats for free
-greater manyshot gives him everything he needs to function (move + shoot and get skirmish damage on multiple enemies)

The typical barbarian charger build can make a fair archer using

-hank's energy bow (for power shots + force arrows + 2d6 base damage and unlimited STR adjustment)
-whirling frenzy (works with ranged weapons)
-a fair DEX score
-rapid shot (some magic items grant it I think)

For a Paladin charger build,a killoren makes a decent versatile character

-smite to song (instead of normal smite) works as a buff instead
-charming the arrow lets you use CHA to hit
-killoren smites work at range due to the way they're worded

A rogue works too but only against certain types of enemies (though a demolition crystal or such can expand that a bit) and triggering SA on ranged attacks is trickier than skirmishing

though the best way to get the same result is to have ridiculous reach instead

a charger psychic warrior can pull off the barbarian shtick easily enough (use expansion instead of rage)
but because of expansion (and a reach weapon) your reach can become so large that you can simply hit whatever you want despite having minions in the way

personally the psychic warrior route is usually my favorite (since powers make you more versatile than a mere barb and you get bonus feats to attain your combo faster)