PDA

View Full Version : SpellSword in Forgotten Realms - Advice



Clove
2007-08-08, 12:52 PM
First I will say if you have any advice for a Paladin 2/ Sorceror XX based in a Forgotten realms campaign, you can post it without reading my entire blurb. Specifically I'm looking for advice on what Feats and spells to take.

I can't see this campaign going too far past 10th level. I think 14th will be about maximum level. The DM hasn't set an end-point for the campaign, but given past performance I'm expecting a low to mid level campaign. So don't bother laboring too hard with your epic level suggestions.

I usually like to play a spellcaster with solid defense. In the past I've done a heavily armored Dwarven Fighter 1/Wizard (rest of levels) with Still Spell to get around casting through armor. My defensive capabilities were so great a standard opening move in some situations was to move forward and take Total Defense while the rest of the party ramps up their power for a fight. I want to try a prestige class with this new character though... Something that can actually fight back in melee with some good spellcasting power to back it up.

I'm looking at making a SpellSword, not sure if I have the name right. But it is the class in one of the newer Warrior books that has pre-reqs of +4 Attack Bonus, 2nd level arcane spells, and 6 ranks in Knowledge Arcana. It has Base Attack Bonus increase at every level, Spell Progression at only every odd level, and reduces spell failure from armor. This presitge class has 10 levels.

I'm also looking at Abjurant Defender in the newest "Arcane" book. Abjurant Defender gives Base Attack Bonus and Spell Progression at every level! The class is only 5 levels long. It requires a +5 Base Attack Bonus so I might splash a level (perhaps more) of this in after taking my first level of SpellSword, since SpellSword will give this character his fifth point of BAB.

I think that Paladin 2/Sorceror 4 is an ideal way to get there. Charisma that is important for spellcasting will feed back into the paladin ability giving the Charisma bonus to saving throws, making this character's defense stronger in all areas where a saving throw is important. Delaying 2nd level spells until 4th level instead of 3rd is not a big concern either, since the 4th level of Sorceror includes a Base Attack Bonus that will be needed for getting into the Prestige Class I'm looking at.


Race: Human (need to multiclass Pal and Sorc. Extra SkillPoins will also be helpful due to low Intelligence. Need maxed Concentration to cast spells in combat, and 6 ranks of Knowledge Arcana to qualify for PrC.)

Stats (DM is using Point Buy system with 32 Points. Two 16's and 2 14's and 2 8's gives 32 Points spent.)

16 Str (10 Points)
14 Dex (6 Points)
14 Con
8 Int (0 Points)
8 Wis
16 Cha

Feats Possibilities....
Defensive Casting (required for Abjurant Defender I think)
Spellcasting Prodigy (realms feat)
Improved Toughness
PowerAttack
Pointblank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (the missile weapon feats)

Strategy: Having a good Base Attack Bonus means not needing to worry excessively about needing to beat Spell Resistance when it is an issue. Spell resistance becomes commonplace when my DM starts feeling like overwhelming magic is getting too efficient at thwarting anything he throws at the party.

The other big equalizer that gets used from time to time is extremely large creatures grappling the party. Dimension Door is a nice escape which I will have access to eventually. I'm also thinking of getting a good Short Sword as my standard melee weapon. Because it is a small, light weapon, it can be used while in a grapple. :smallwink: It does decently compared to a longsword as well, being D6 instead of D8.

Then again, I suppose Armor Spikes can accomplish the same task. Of course they do only a D4. And I would also always have a hand free for casting spells if I relied on armor spikes to make melee attacks.

I might actually carry a two-handed weapon as well. The Abjurant Defender route allows quick-casting of low level Abjurations and boosting of AC bonus from Abjuration Spells. So I could wear a wizard robe or a loin cloth and do battle with with a Two-Handed Sword. (never mind the Armor and Shield spells :smallbiggrin: ) Just because I have versatility in spells doesn't mean I can't be ready with the right muscle-tool.

Darrin
2007-08-08, 01:57 PM
First I will say if you have any advice for a Paladin 2/ Sorceror XX based in a Forgotten realms campaign, you can post it without reading my entire blurb. Specifically I'm looking for advice on what Feats and spells to take.

I think that Paladin 2/Sorceror 4 is an ideal way to get there.


That should work fine. A Pal 2/Battle Sorcerer 4 could get into Abjurant Champion a level earlier, but you lose a bit of your spellcasting punch. If you have access to the PHBII, consider the Duskblade for happy fun gish-gleefulness.



Race: Human (need to multiclass Pal and Sorc. Extra SkillPoins will also be helpful due to low Intelligence. Need maxed Concentration to cast spells in combat, and 6 ranks of Knowledge Arcana to qualify for PrC.)


Consider Lesser Aasimar (favored class: Paladin, +2 Wis +2 Cha) or the Magic-Blooded racial template from Dragon #306 (-2 Wis, +2 Cha, favored class = Sor). Or, heck, a Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar for +4 Cha.



Feats Possibilities....
Defensive Casting (required for Abjurant Defender I think)

Combat Casting - yeah, it's a trap, but required.



Spellcasting Prodigy (realms feat)

While Spellcasting Prodigy + Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar is tempting, I'm not sure this is a strong feat, since it doesn't count for anything except bonus spells.



Improved Toughness
PowerAttack

Both good picks.



Pointblank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (the missile weapon feats)

On a gish? Umm... okay...



Then again, I suppose Armor Spikes can accomplish the same task. Of course they do only a D4. And I would also always have a hand free for casting spells if I relied on armor spikes to make melee attacks.


Armor spikes on a medium creature have the same damage as a short sword, 1d6. I'd avoid nerfing your primary melee weapon just so you can use it in a grapple.

As far as avoiding grapples, Dimension Door won't be available until at least 10th level for you. Just cast Grease on your armor for +10 to resist/escape a grapple. Armor spikes + reach weapon should be discouragement enough.

Clove
2007-08-08, 03:26 PM
Consider Lesser Aasimar (favored class: Paladin, +2 Wis +2 Cha) or the Magic-Blooded racial template from Dragon #306 (-2 Wis, +2 Cha, favored class = Sor). Or, heck, a Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar for +4 Cha.


Do those have level adjustments? I know I'm losing some spell progression already, but I want to keep it to a minimum. I don't know if my DM would allow something out of Dragon Magazine, so I'm asking more about the Lesser Assimar.

Looking at the stat adjustments I would guess the magic blooded template might not, but the Lesser Aasimar would. +4 Charisma would be good though. I could lay on hands for 10 points as a 2nd level paladin, and have +5 to all saves that stacks with anything else in the game.



While Spellcasting Prodigy + Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar is tempting, I'm not sure this is a strong feat, since it doesn't count for anything except bonus spells.


I thought Spellcasting Prodigy also increased to DC of saving throws against the caster's spells by 1. But I'm not too familiar with it, so perhaps I am incorrect. Even so, I wasn't sure if this was a good feat since this character isn't completely focused on spellcasting. It needs to be taken at level 1, if ever. So it's good to think about right away so I don't have regrets later.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-08, 03:29 PM
No LA on lesser aasimar, or magic blooded, IIRC. Furthermore, spellcasting prodigy was erratad to no longer affect spell DC's.

Falrin
2007-08-08, 03:43 PM
Arcane strike (Sacrefice Spells/Attack & Damage: Flexibility)

Smiting spell (+1 LvL, Cast on a wepaon (OR AMMO)

Improved Initiative (For a fighter that needs to buff first going first is rather important)

Practiced SPellcaster (Depends on the amount of CL your build loses)

I like: Craft Wand
Get Enlarge Person, Shield, Silent Image, True Strike, ...

Empower Spell: Combo With Smiting SPell.

Arcane Thesis: Vampiric Touch/Scorching ray/Ray of Enfeeblement. Get Smiting & Empower on them.

Clove
2007-08-08, 03:45 PM
Armor spikes on a medium creature have the same damage as a short sword, 1d6. I'd avoid nerfing your primary melee weapon just so you can use it in a grapple.



Hmm, now that I think about it. Maybe I should think about a rapier. It is a light weapon, but was initially against it because it's not a very... what's the word... macho weapon. But the more I think about it, this character could be more of a swashbuckling character if I go Abjurant defender. High Charisma... fancy clothes instead of armor... :smallbiggrin: Best of all, I think vanity and a excessive taste for nice threads are acceptable and comical vices for a paladin.

Clove
2007-08-08, 04:01 PM
Arcane strike (Sacrefice Spells/Attack & Damage: Flexibility)

Smiting spell (+1 LvL, Cast on a wepaon (OR AMMO)

Improved Initiative (For a fighter that needs to buff first going first is rather important)

Practiced SPellcaster (Depends on the amount of CL your build loses)

I like: Craft Wand
Get Enlarge Person, Shield, Silent Image, True Strike, ...

Empower Spell: Combo With Smiting SPell.

Arcane Thesis: Vampiric Touch/Scorching ray/Ray of Enfeeblement. Get Smiting & Empower on them.

Ah, I forgot about that Arcane Strike Feat. It always seemed overly situational and costly spell-wise when playing a caster who has a lousy Base Attack Bonus. But here, it could be really nice!

Falrin
2007-08-08, 04:11 PM
Last I like to mention Sacred Exorcist as a PrC. (Complete Divine)

Know rel 7
Know planes 10
Any good
Able to cast Dismissal or dispel evil.

Especially with that Paladin in your build this seems fitting.

The goodies:
d8
3/4 BaB
Turn Undead
Some other stuff.
Full Casting

Espesially Turn Undead is nice as you can get (for example) Divine Metamagic to burn it on.

On Spellsword: 1 LvL Dip is Perfect. 5 LvLs Get you Channel. More and you'll lose to much CL.
Abjurant Champion is concidered way better.

Pal 2/Sorc4/AC5/#Sacred Exorcist looks nice.

Clove
2007-08-08, 04:33 PM
Yea, I'll take 1 level of SpellSword after Pal 2 and Sorc 4 to get to a +5 Base Attack Bonus. Since Abjurant Defender requires a +5 BAB.

Then after 5 levels of Abjurant Defender I would just barely have 5th level spells, so I could get Dismissal.

I don't know if the campaign will go long enough to get to Sacred Exorcist. But if it does, it looks like a good idea. Also, if the campaign goes for that long, it will be nice to pull out another bag of extra tricks to keep up with the expanding power scale of a long campaign.

I just find myself balking a bit at the knowledge skills required as I was thinking of using Intelligence as a dump stat. Although somewhere in the mid-levels I could get an int boosting item (headband of intellect) and wear it all the time to get some bonus skill points.


Last I like to mention Sacred Exorcist as a PrC. (Complete Divine)

Know rel 7
Know planes 10
Any good
Able to cast Dismissal or dispel evil.

Especially with that Paladin in your build this seems fitting.

The goodies:
d8
3/4 BaB
Turn Undead
Some other stuff.
Full Casting

Espesially Turn Undead is nice as you can get (for example) Divine Metamagic to burn it on.

On Spellsword: 1 LvL Dip is Perfect. 5 LvLs Get you Channel. More and you'll lose to much CL.
Abjurant Champion is concidered way better.

Pal 2/Sorc4/AC5/#Sacred Exorcist looks nice.

Darrin
2007-08-08, 10:18 PM
Hmm, now that I think about it. Maybe I should think about a rapier. It is a light weapon, but was initially against it because it's not a very... what's the word... macho weapon.

Actually, it's *not* a light weapon, it's a one-handed melee weapon, same as a longsword or battleaxe. It's a *finessable* weapon, which is what you're probably thinking of. However, you haven't mentioned Weapon Finesse so far, and a high dex build with Weapon Finesse and TWF would be... not particularly optimal. To do it right, it requires more feats than you have available.



But the more I think about it, this character could be more of a swashbuckling character if I go Abjurant defender. High Charisma... fancy clothes instead of armor... :smallbiggrin: Best of all, I think vanity and a excessive taste for nice threads are acceptable and comical vices for a paladin.

Sounds to me like more of a bard, really... and if you went that way, Snowflake Wardance (spend bardic music use to gain +Cha bonus to damage for... I forget how long it lasts). But bards can't be lawful, so not much paladin synergy there.

I should have asked this earlier, but do you have access to the Tome of Battle? If all you want from Paladin is the +Cha bonus to saves, Crusaders get the exact same ability at 2nd level, and the maneuvers will likely be more useful than Detect Evil, Smite 1/day, and Lay on Hands. No need to be lawful good, either, just anything but neutral. A Crusader 2/Bard 4 could go right into Abjurant Champion (Alarm = abjuration).

Clove
2007-08-08, 11:29 PM
I don't have that book (and neither does my DM i think), but I just read about it now at Wikipedia and it does sound like a better choice.

My DM is getting some new players who have never played DnD before. 1 played some Vampire or Werewolf role playing game before. 1 is from a dance class he and his wife go to. So he mentioned that he didn't want to allow anything too outlandish, like Centaurs. Maybe this Crusader class would be ok, but I would have to ask.

Which it will be fine if I can't. It will save me from the temptation of buying a $20 or $30 book just to get 2 levels of a class.

This does explain all the talk about SwordSages on this board and Manuevers!

Renegade Paladin
2007-08-08, 11:54 PM
Personally, I'm fond of four paladin levels with the fourth being the Mystic Fire Knight substitution from Champions of Valor. Take Practiced Spellcaster (sorcerer) and your caster level = your character level for both paladin and sorcerer spells.

Clove
2007-08-09, 11:49 AM
Pal 2
Sorc 4
SpellSword 1
Abjurant Defender 2


1st improved two weapon fighting, improved toughness
3rd Defensive Casting
6th Weapon Focus:Armor Spikes (or maybe PowerAttack instead)
9th Arcane Strike

I was thinking about wands because someone else mentioned them above. Then I thought about how armorspikes would leave my character's hands open for spellcasting... then about how both hands would be open for Dual Wand Wielding with the feat. :smallbiggrin: Paladin levels give access to wands that heal, so a character like this would have access to all Sorceror spells and all the Paladin spells on wands. Meleeing on some rounds, activating double wand action on other rounds. :smallbiggrin: Dual Wand Wielding 2 Cure Critical wands can be alot of healing for one action on a non-healing class. 4d8+7 and another 4d8+7.

But I think this will have to wait for later, if it happens at all... If I decide I really want it at higher levels the second level of SpellSword grants a bonus feat. I imagine at a level of 12 or higher there will be bigger, better feats begging to be chosen though.

But then I realized Arcane Strike would work very well with a dual-wield fighting style utilizing armor spikes. This is because the all the spikes are one weapon for game mechanics, so the +hit and +damage would apply to both main-hand and off-hand attacks. :smalltongue:

I'm usually critical of 2-weapon builds because they get shredded and don't pack enough punch for the loss. But I think the extra cheese out of Arcane Strike makes it worth it. Being able to instant cast a shield spell with Abjurant Champion AC bonus or simply carry a buckler or shield if I choose makes it less of a handi-cap as well.

I have the option of carrying a large weapon as well for situations that warrant it. A polearm will be nice to take attacks of opportunity, but a 2-handed sword or 2-handed axe would also be good for situations where Damage Resistance is a problem. I could carry one of each I suppose. I'm considering taking PowerAttack at 6th level instead of Weapon Focus:Armor Spikes because of this two-handed weapon utility. Especially since truestrike/powerattack is a fairly simple manuever if there is an extra turn in combat... well maybe not... if I want to save my low level spells for quick-casted AC boosting spells. I guess there's no harm in having the spell in case an opportunity presents itself.

This might be the first non-bard arcane caster ever that I've thought Magic Missile may not have a place in spells known. :smalleek:

A buckler is certainly not out of the question either. It also doesn't tie up a hand and an off-hand armor spike attack could still be made with a -1 penalty.

So my character has something to shoot for at 9th level. If the campaign goes that far.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-09, 11:56 AM
Power attack won't work with light weapons and rapiers. So don't get that if you use armor spikes or a rapier.

Iku Rex
2007-08-09, 12:08 PM
Two-weapon fighting is a bit of a waste, especially if you're not going to use the armor spikes with a two-handed weapon. If you think your DM is going to be difficult about changing your grip on a two-handed weapon you can get the Somatic Weaponry (CMag) feat. Power Attack is far better than Weapon Focus: Armor Spikes. Arcane Strike gets more useful on higher levels - I'd put it off to level 12.

Which books can you use? Will you be starting at level 1?

Falrin
2007-08-09, 12:35 PM
Wearing INT-boosting items does not give you extra Skillpoints.

If you craft your own wand, ask if you can get them the size of a greatclub, keeps you from needing quickdraw.

Clove
2007-08-09, 02:10 PM
Two-weapon fighting is a bit of a waste, especially if you're not going to use the armor spikes with a two-handed weapon. If you think your DM is going to be difficult about changing your grip on a two-handed weapon you can get the Somatic Weaponry (CMag) feat. Power Attack is far better than Weapon Focus: Armor Spikes. Arcane Strike gets more useful on higher levels - I'd put it off to level 12.

Which books can you use? Will you be starting at level 1?

We'll use whatever books my DM has, which i don't remember the titles of off-hand. I know he wants to keep extra rules to a minimum due to new players but I also know he likes to feel like his expenses are justified.

Starting at level 1 I think, maybe 2 if he feels we are too weak.

I know it doesn't seem optimized to take Power Attack and also 2-Weapon fighting for armor spikes. My purpose is to be ready with a variety of attack options, rather than try to completely optimize a single combat style.

It does occur to me that I could leverage Power Attack and 2-Weapon fighting by using a quarterstaff though. I think all the high level mage staves typically can be used as quarterstaves as well. :smallsmile:

Clove
2007-08-09, 02:12 PM
Wearing INT-boosting items does not give you extra Skillpoints.

If you craft your own wand, ask if you can get them the size of a greatclub, keeps you from needing quickdraw.

Thats funny. A large sized wand-club. It really speaks to the style of this character. But also a good idea.

Falrin
2007-08-09, 03:27 PM
If i'm correct you can even create metal wands. It's the DM's Call, but with some skills in Weaponsmith, the craft wands feat you'll have a 2d6+1 1/2 str wand coming up. Only problem is storing em all :).


From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm)

Most wands are wood, but some are bone. A rare few are metal, glass, or even ceramic, but these are quite exotic.