Improving the Lore Master

[robbie374]

The Lore Master Wizard Tradition of Unearthed Arcana got a lot of pushback because people thought it stepped on the Sorcerer's toes and was too powerful.

The power issues mostly came down to its 2nd level Spell Secrets feature which allows for changing of damage types and, once per rest, saves. Despite the kneejerk reactions, this really isn't OP when compared to other Wizard's abilities like Portent or a Cleric's Channel Divinity, nor when you consider that damage vulnerability pretty much doesn't exist and that simply preparing an extra spell or two of another damage type can overcome that issue. Basically, it saves one or two prepared spells and is otherwise a ribbon feature.

The Sorcerer complaints come largely from the 6th level Alchemical Casting, which steps on toes about as much as Bladesinger and Hexblade do melee and the Cleric Arcana domain does Wizards.

That said, Alchemical Casting still has a weird name and basically just eats up the Lore Master's Arcane Recovery, which kind of stinks. Here are a few suggestions of how to modify or replace it.

What do you think of these ideas?

Manipulator of Magic
At 6th level, you learn to augment spells in a variety of ways. You gain spell points equal to your wizard level which you can expend to augment its effects for this casting, mixing the raw stuff of magic into your spell to amplify it. The effect depends on the spell points you expend. You may only choose one effect per spell you cast:



Spend 1 spell point to increase the spell’s raw force. If you roll damage for the spell when you cast it, increase the damage against every target by 2d10. If the spell can deal damage on more than one turn, it deals this extra force damage only on the turn you cast the spell.
Spend 2 spell points to increase the spell’s range. If the spell’s range is at least 30 feet, it becomes 1 mile.
Spend 3 spell points to increase the spell’s potency. Increase the spell’s save DC by 2.



Manipulator of Magic
At 6th level, you learn to augment spells in a variety of ways, mixing the raw stuff of magic into your spells to amplify them. When you cast a spell, you may choose one of the following effects. You can use each effect once per rest. Beginning at 12th level, you can use each effect twice between rests, and beginning at 18th level, you can use each effect three times between rests. When you finish a short or long rest, you regain your expended uses.



Increase the spell’s raw force. If you roll damage for the spell when you cast it, increase the damage against every target by 2d10. If the spell can deal damage on more than one turn, it deals this extra force damage only on the turn you cast the spell.
Increase the spell’s range. If the spell’s range is at least 30 feet, it becomes 1 mile.
Increase the spell’s potency. Increase the spell’s save DC by 2.



Teacher of Magic
At 6th level, you have become a teacher of magic. Once per 24 hours or after a long rest, you can choose one ally or friendly creature having an intelligence score of 8 or higher to learn a spell.
Choose one of your cantrips or prepared spells having a level less than or equal to your wizard level divided by four:


Wizard Level
Maximum Spell Level


6th
1st


8th
2nd


12th
3rd


16th
4th


20th
5th



By spending a total of 2 hours studying with this friend and expending any material components of this spell, for the next 24 hours that friend gains the ability to cast this spell once at the maximum level.
Your friend must follow all the normal rules of the spell's casting except that material components are not required. Your friend may use his own spellcasting ability modifier or Intelligence if he doesn’t have one.


Magical Fascination
At 6th level, you have found yourself particularly interested in one aspect of magic. Choose a full spellcaster class (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard). You learn one cantrip and one 1st level spell from this class's spell list which you always have prepared and does not count against your prepared spells. You also gain this class's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level feature as follows:


Bard: College Feature and Proficiencies
Cleric: Channel Divinity
Druid: Wild Shape
Warlock: Pact Boon
Sorcerer: 1st Level Origin Features
Wizard: 2nd Level School Feature

You use your Intelligence modifier, Wizard levels, and Wizard spells for these features.

[Hobbo Jim]

I personally agree with you that the Spell Secrets feature is a bit overrated, and really as powerful as some make it out to be. But then I also think most people glossed over the fact that it is only once per short rest. That's not to say it isn't strong, just not game breaking, especially if you include any kind of role-play requirement (some spells are really hard to change role-play wise. Feeblemind as a str save? what the hell does that look like?).

As for your changes to alchemical casting I don't think I can agree with them, but I kind of like the new abilities. There are two problems, first is that, like the other ability, it is pretty strong. Perhaps not gamebreaking, but still pretty darn strong, especially once you get your 14th level ability. Second, is that as you said it steps on the toes of sorcerers. A lot of what sorcerers do is manipulate the spells that they have, without having to prepare.

Your first suggestion for Manipulator of magic makes both of these worse. Regardless of balancing how many points you get, you have encouraged the use of the ability more by giving it its own stat pool (now its stronger). Additionally, you have effectively mimicked the Sorcerer's metamagic spell points, which at that point just play a sorcerer.

Your second suggestion for Manipulator of Magic I would say still increases the power by no longer requiring lower level spell slots to be used up, but is better than your previous suggestion because it's not directly mimicking the sorcerer feature. Still, I would rate this as worse than the original because I think it's stronger.

Teacher of Magic, with some changes and tuning (I'm not exactly sure how, unfortunately) I think could be a really cool idea. It plays in more with the "Study really hard" aspect, and definitely does not step on anyone's toes except maybe your own, but hey you chose the subclass. I think the biggest worry is giving the the non-casters concentration spells, but those perhaps would be mitigated by getting hit. This could definitely be worth playtesting.

Magical Fascination runs into the problem of stepping on other classes toes again. First, I'm not sure if I would consider warlock a full caster, but also I feel as though this would allow for some pretty powerful stuff. I'm not going to go through and consider every possible subclass ability that might be good, but still it feels like a "If you take this class, then you don't have to multiclass into other classes anymore!" On the other hand, it would definitely allow for some interesting player creations and added flavoring, and realistically it doesn't step on toes any more than a 1 or two level dip would. So I guess I'm on the fence with this one. I don't think I would want to see it published, but in a home game where you aren't going to power-game I think I could enjoy it.

Really, I think what annoyed people with Lore Wizard was that every single ability seems to bring it closer to doing what Sorcerer do (Change spells they have with less preparation). Hopefully you find this helpful.

[robbie374]

Thanks for your feedback! I have made a few slight changes.

For Manipulator of magic, I dropped the damage increase and boosted the range increase to work on more spells, with the intent of making it the same power level as the save DC increase.
For Teacher of Magic, I expanded it to any number of allies rather than one per day, but I also added the requirement for the ally to use his own material components in addition to those you use in your teaching. I also added information about casting cantrips at higher levels.
For Magical Fascination, I changed some wording to explicitly mention the choice of a subclass.

Manipulator of Magic
At 6th level, you learn to change the range and difficulty of your spells, preparing several slight variations of each spell. When you cast a spell, you may choose one of the following variations. You can use each variation once per rest. Beginning at 12th level, you can use each twice, and at 18th level, three times, between rests. When you finish a short or long rest, you regain your expended uses.


Increase the spell’s range. Increase the spell's range to 1 mile. If the spell's range is Self, you may cast it on a friendly creature within 1 mile.
Increase the spell’s potency. Increase the spell’s save DC by 2.



Teacher of Magic
At 6th level, you have become a teacher of magic. At any time you can choose one ally or friendly creature having an intelligence score of 8 or higher to learn a spell. Choose one of your cantrips or prepared spells having a level less than or equal to your wizard level divided by four:


Wizard Level

Maximum Spell Level



6th

1st (1st level cantrip)



8th

2nd



12th

3rd (5th level cantrip)



16th

4th



20th

5th (11th level cantrip)




By spending a total of 2 hours teaching and working closely with this friend and using any material components of this spell, for the next 24 hours that friend gains the ability to cast this spell once at the maximum level.
Your friend must follow all the normal rules of the spell's casting, including material components. Your friend may use his own spellcasting focus or component pouch, and he may use his spellcasting ability modifier or Intelligence if he doesn’t have one.


Magical Fascination
At 6th level, you have found yourself particularly interested in one aspect of magic. Choose one subclass of a full spellcaster class (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard). You learn one cantrip and one 1st level spell from this class's spell list which you always have prepared and does not count against your prepared spells. You also gain this subclass's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level feature as follows:


Bard: College Features
Cleric: Channel Divinity
Druid: Wild Shape
Warlock: Pact Boon
Sorcerer: 1st Level Origin Features
Wizard: 2nd Level School Feature

You use your Intelligence modifier, Wizard levels, and Wizard spells for these features.

[Byke]

Easiest fix....just give full casters access to meta-magic and delete the sorcerer class in 5e.

Manipulating magic, to effect action economy, power or DC of a spell is the defining characteristic of the Sorcerer class. It's WoTC's reasoning for limiting the Sorcerer spells known and spell list.

Providing meta magic to any other class, in any form basically invalidates Sorcerers.

[EspyGrrl]

My main thoughts on the last one is... So... I can be a full 20 levels into Wizard, and have Eldritch Blast (using INT to boot!) and Hex? Or have another cantrip and access to Cure Wounds (again, using INT). Or picking Druid and I get full access to shapeshifting (granted it's only up to CR1, but you get access to lots of utility forms without using a mid or higher level spell slot for Polymorph).
It's an amazing ability, but it can be broken pretty easily.
The first two Manipulator of Magic replacements seem to make it even more like Sorcery Points.
Teacher of Magic is actually pretty cool, allowing a party member access to a spell that they might not have access to (Some good ones I see being Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Teleportation Circle... stuff that it is good for more than one party member to have)

[robbie374]

My main thoughts on the last one is... So... I can be a full 20 levels into Wizard, and have Eldritch Blast (using INT to boot!) and Hex? Or have another cantrip and access to Cure Wounds (again, using INT). Or picking Druid and I get full access to shapeshifting (granted it's only up to CR1, but you get access to lots of utility forms without using a mid or higher level spell slot for Polymorph).
It's an amazing ability, but it can be broken pretty easily.
The first two Manipulator of Magic replacements seem to make it even more like Sorcery Points.
Teacher of Magic is actually pretty cool, allowing a party member access to a spell that they might not have access to (Some good ones I see being Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Teleportation Circle... stuff that it is good for more than one party member to have)

Yeah, the reason I added the free cantrip and 1st level spell was mostly to make options like the Cleric Life Domain viable, since it requires healing to work. I don't think giving a wizard access to cure wounds is too much though, and a 14th level Lore Wizard can do that anyway. one cantrip and spell is less than the Magic Initiate feat. Since it is mostly to benefit the Cleric option, it could be changed thus:

Magical Fascination
At 6th level, you have found yourself particularly interested in one aspect of magic. Choose one subclass of a full spellcaster class (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard). You gain this subclass's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level feature as follows:


Bard: College Features
Cleric: Channel Divinity and one 1st level spell, always prepared
Druid: Wild Shape
Warlock: Pact Boon
Sorcerer: 1st Level Origin Features
Wizard: 2nd Level School Feature


You use your Intelligence modifier, Wizard levels, and Wizard spells for these features.

Alternatively, to leave flexibility for not-yet-official subclasses:

Magical Fascination
At 6th level, you have found yourself particularly interested in one aspect of magic. Choose one subclass of a full spellcaster class (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard). You gain this subclass's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level feature as follows:


Bard: College Features
Cleric: Channel Divinity
Druid: Wild Shape
Warlock: Pact Boon
Sorcerer: 1st Level Origin Features
Wizard: 2nd Level School Feature


You use your Intelligence modifier, Wizard levels, and Wizard spells for these features.
If the subclass feature you choose is impossible for a 6th level Lore Master to use otherwise, such as requiring a healing spell, you gain from the chosen subclass one cantrip or 1st level spell which you always have prepared and does not count against your prepared spells.

[robbie374]

My main thoughts on the last one is... So... I can be a full 20 levels into Wizard, and have Eldritch Blast (using INT to boot!) and Hex? Or have another cantrip and access to Cure Wounds (again, using INT). Or picking Druid and I get full access to shapeshifting (granted it's only up to CR1, but you get access to lots of utility forms without using a mid or higher level spell slot for Polymorph).
It's an amazing ability, but it can be broken pretty easily.
The first two Manipulator of Magic replacements seem to make it even more like Sorcery Points.
Teacher of Magic is actually pretty cool, allowing a party member access to a spell that they might not have access to (Some good ones I see being Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Teleportation Circle... stuff that it is good for more than one party member to have)

Also, yes, you do get a 3rd or lower level ability not normally available for a wizard, but you sacrifice getting any other 6th level ability.

[EspyGrrl]

Yeah, the reason I added the free cantrip and 1st level spell was mostly to make options like the Cleric Life Domain viable, since it requires healing to work. I don't think giving a wizard access to cure wounds is too much though, and a 14th level Lore Wizard can do that anyway. one cantrip and spell is less than the Magic Initiate feat. Since it is mostly to benefit the Cleric option, it could be changed thus:


It's less than the Magic Initiate feat, but the feat only allows the 1st level spell to be cast once per long rest.

I wanna clarify though, I love the ability, it allows for really interesting builds and character types that are not possible without having to choose to multiclass (I've been in games where the DM had a 'no multiclass' rule, or I've also had characters that I actually wanted them to be a full 20 levels into the same class, so this expands those kind of possibilities), I'm just pointing out anything I view as 'perhaps too powerful/broken' and then looking at it and thinking 'ok, so how could it be tuned so it's not broken/OP, but still gives you that awesome ability?'

[robbie374]

It's less than the Magic Initiate feat, but the feat only allows the 1st level spell to be cast once per long rest.

I wanna clarify though, I love the ability, it allows for really interesting builds and character types that are not possible without having to choose to multiclass (I've been in games where the DM had a 'no multiclass' rule, or I've also had characters that I actually wanted them to be a full 20 levels into the same class, so this expands those kind of possibilities), I'm just pointing out anything I view as 'perhaps too powerful/broken' and then looking at it and thinking 'ok, so how could it be tuned so it's not broken/OP, but still gives you that awesome ability?'

If you have other spell slots, you are allowed to cast your magic initiate spell again.

I'm glad you like it so much!

Yeah, I was worried it would get too crazy, but I've wanted to be able to get one little piece of another class without having to diverge from my main class for a whole pile of levels. Warlock is an example: getting Pact of the Chain for a cool familiar without getting the fancy spell slots or eldritch blast, etc.

The main class that the feature is from invariably has other features that build off of it and make it better, but this option would make dabbling an option. I figure there will be some builds that are stronger than others (I was worried about wild shape, for example, because people talk it up so much), but I think since these are low level features and we're replacing a 6th level feature to get them that it should be relatively safe.

A related idea I've had was to create a feat along these lines that anyone could take to get another class/subclass's low level feature without multiclassing. The feat could have a "Minimum 6th level" requirement. Or, instead of a feat, it could simply be a customization option for any class that you can replace your 6th level class feature with one lower level feature of another class.

[EspyGrrl]

If you have other spell slots, you are allowed to cast your magic initiate spell again.


I... did not know that... wow... that makes that feat a hell of a lot more appealing...



I'm glad you like it so much!

Yeah, I was worried it would get too crazy, but I've wanted to be able to get one little piece of another class without having to diverge from my main class for a whole pile of levels. Warlock is an example: getting Pact of the Chain for a cool familiar without getting the fancy spell slots or eldritch blast, etc.

The main class that the feature is from invariably has other features that build off of it and make it better, but this option would make dabbling an option. I figure there will be some builds that are stronger than others (I was worried about wild shape, for example, because people talk it up so much), but I think since these are low level features and we're replacing a 6th level feature to get them that it should be relatively safe.

A related idea I've had was to create a feat along these lines that anyone could take to get another class/subclass's low level feature without multiclassing. The feat could have a "Minimum 6th level" requirement. Or, instead of a feat, it could simply be a customization option for any class that you can replace your 6th level class feature with one lower level feature of another class.


Yeah, considering the Wild Shape this feature gives is still limited to CR1 or less, it's not very OP, it just mainly gives you a lot of utility forms without using Polymorph.

One thing, the Bard option, it doesn't state that it gives them Bardic Inspiration, so it would only grant them half of the 3rd level Collage features (as all of them, even UA, give some way of using BI in a different, unique, way)

[robbie374]

On the Bard, a good point. I'll adjust it:

"If the subclass feature you choose is impossible for a 6th level Lore Master to use otherwise, such as requiring a healing spell, you gain from the chosen subclass the necessary prerequisite, such as the necessary dice, one cantrip, or one 1st level spell which you always have prepared and does not count against your prepared spells."

My intent with this change was to give them the dice for Bardic Inspiration, but without the Bardic Inspiration ability. I was avoiding directly giving full Bardic Inspiration, but maybe that should be added? Would that be too much?

[Iamcreative]

If you have other spell slots, you are allowed to cast your magic initiate spell again.


I dont think thats true. The PHB very clearly calls out that you dont add the spell to your spell list or use any existing spell slots. It very clearly and simply states 'once you cast it, you can not cast it again until you finish a long rest'
(Although it totally could have gotten erratad or a jc tweet and i wouldnt have seen it)

As for the changes, I dislike most of them with the exception of Teacher of magic. Which I think is awesome! It has a really nice flavor and seems strong (especially if you combine it with the Facination ability, everyone gets bless!) but I can certainly get behind the idea of sharong knowledge and it seems even more 'lore mastery-y' than all the WotC abilities. Maybe if you limit it to instant cast spells / to only certain components (like no vocal spells?)/ make then use their int mod.

As for the other abilities, I would say by necessity it they need to be weaker than just taking a level in that class and certainly cant be stronger than that. And being able to pick and choose what abilities you want seems ripe for abuse and general dicker-y.

Aditionally, it really takes away the fluff of other classes. 'The warlock didnt need to make that deal, just study harder!' 'Who needs to deal with all that god nonsense I just learned god powers by thinking real hard!' Etc. Etc.

Although I will say that take that teacher idea combined with wotc version would be an upgrade.

[robbie374]

I dont think thats true. The PHB very clearly calls out that you dont add the spell to your spell list or use any existing spell slots. It very clearly and simply states 'once you cast it, you can not cast it again until you finish a long rest'
(Although it totally could have gotten erratad or a jc tweet and i wouldnt have seen it)

Here is what I found on this, from Sage Advice (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.01.pdf):

"If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare."

So that's why I was confused: you can use it with other slots, but only if you also have a level in that class.

[Azgeroth]

how about changing it more completely, i.e. instead of chasing some meta-magic likeness or stealing from some other class, we make it more about lore..

example,

level 2.
you have proficiency in arcana ,history, and nature, if you already have proficiency in any of these skills, you instead gain expertise in that, or those skills. in addition, it takes half the time it would normally take to transcribe or prepare any spell to and from your spell book.

level 6.
when you attempt to recall knowledge from memory or books, you do so with advantage, recalling exacting detail on the subject and related matters. (including monsters, locations, artefacts, and events.)

[Byke]

how about changing it more completely, i.e. instead of chasing some meta-magic likeness or stealing from some other class, we make it more about lore..

example,

level 2.
you have proficiency in arcana ,history, and nature, if you already have proficiency in any of these skills, you instead gain expertise in that, or those skills. in addition, it takes half the time it would normally take to transcribe or prepare any spell to and from your spell book.

level 6.
when you attempt to recall knowledge from memory or books, you do so with advantage, recalling exacting detail on the subject and related matters. (including monsters, locations, artefacts, and events.)

QFT - Pretty much this x 100