What if gods were literally one of us?

[tedcahill2]

So in a campaign starting in a few weeks I was thinking that deities would be very real, even more so than in most campaigns. They would actually live on the material plane in massive temples. Each would have a temple of their own in various parts of the world.

In the campaign I'm planning the PCs will actually be facing a god that was cast out of the council of gods, banished to live in the abyss (aka hell). His former temple, would be a major dungeon later in the game.

What other things would make sense with this sort of set up for deities? Pilgrims would be able to travel to the temple of a god and the god actually lives there. The gods might even go on their own tours of the land performing their various deeds (aiding crops, healing the sick, changing the seasons, etc).

It this a slippery slope into something more negative than I've perceived?

[Barstro]

You need to define "god" at it applies to this world. What are their powers? How can their powers wax and wane? What is the point in worshiping these gods?

After answering that, you will have an idea of how, exactly, people worship them. Then you will have an idea of what happens when a god is booted.

Has this god lost all powers? What gods have stepped up to assume those duties? Is there any fighting among the other gods to become the next "god of ___". Which gods are upset at the decision and want to help the party?

I see a huge can of worms that could wind up being fantastic.

[Waker]

You might draw a bit of inspiration from a book called Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson. In it, people who are reborn as gods live in in a section of a capital city and are frequently petitioned by their worshippers.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

As long as you make one of them sing You're welcome I'd be game.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Barstro
I see a huge can of worms that could wind up being fantastic.

Definitely this. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Waker
You might draw a bit of inspiration from a book called Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson. In it, people who are reborn as gods live in in a section of a capital city and are frequently petitioned by their worshippers.

I’ll second Warbreaker, which is a great read on its own, and also an excellent introduction to Brandon Sanderson.


Originally Posted by WhatThePhysics
…assuming the deities don't take active roles in mortal politics.

This is a central question for this setting, and it opens up many more.

What’s to stop the deities from actively ruling the world? Do they each have an empire or a zone of influence? Do they march to war against each other at the head of mortal armies? Or is there an Empire of the Gods, which stands against other nations which refuse to accept these gods?

[Arbane]

OP: You might want to check out Exalted - Gods interfering in mortal affairs and ruling over them was pretty common in that setting. (And one of the main duties of the Exalted was to kick arrogant gods back into their proper place in the Celestial Bureaucracy.)

Keep in mind that a setting like this will have an even worse version of The Elminister Problem than usual - "Well, if this quest is important, why hasn't (uberNPC) already done it with a snap of their fingers?" (Exalted gets around this by having most gods fairly minor, and the really powerful ones sequestered in Heaven, playing games while the world falls apart.)


If the gods lived on the material plane, I'd expect there to be a lot more theocracies than one would already expect for a D&D setting. I'm imagining rulers and theocrats visiting those temples for all sorts of reasons, assuming the deities don't take active roles in mortal politics.

I think it's a "deiocracy" when the god cuts the middleman out of a theocracy and rules directly. Just in case that comes up.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Deities & Demigods rules give deities mile-range ultrasenses, and generally fairly over-the-top power for a human-ish body. Having one live in a temple would be like putting a 17th-level wizard in a small cottage.

So I'd tone down the 3.5 rules, when it comes to personal power, and instead give deities some other form of power. Maybe each deity lives in every one of its temples, allowing superior communication and personal leadership. Without go-betweens, a huge part of the organization depends on the deity itself. Maybe the deity can even pick something up in temple A, then move it to their hand in temple B, as easily as moving it between left and right hands.

[Gildedragon]

What does it mean that the god is cast out?

Also re the temples. You might want to take inspiration from Temple Complexes; whole settlement-sized religious centers.
At the core of the complex is the Holy of Holies, the home of the God. A palace with gardens, vast audience halls... Etc
Around it probably a wall, and barracks for the god's personal guard and staff.
A massive central temple houses the gate between the God-Palace and the outside. Think Cyclopean size, huge statue of the God, attached housing for high priests, gardens, libraries.
Then all around the area smaller temples to perform smaller miracles. Probably vast temples near the entrance to see to the sick (quarantined as they await healing).

Interwoven through all of this: school-compounds to train paladins, clerics, archivists, sacred bards, adepts, monks, experts (bureaucrats, physicians), etc. Lots of inns and suchlike to house the pilgrims... and food stores, stores to sell souvenirs and offerings and charms and food to the pilgrims. And housing for all the people running the stuff, and everything else these people need to live (food markets etc). And monuments. Lots of votive statues and treasure houses and shrines. A fair few might be items of wondrous architecture.

And considering this is a dnd style world: smaller, very peripheral, temples to gods allied with the head God of the city (would be as embassies or consulates).

And walls.

I'd say... Imagine marrying the Vatican, Mecca, (Egyptian) Thebes, Washington DC and the Forbidden City...

Oh and a necropolis. People still die, after all.
Can be catacombs or a place for pyres or massive mausoleum palaces/towers/temples or a place outside the walls for tombs and mausoleums, or the parks and gardens within the city are full of the dead (flesh to stone and then grinding to sand? Or flesh to stone, Stone to mud, and using the mud to make bricks?)

[Tohsaka Rin]

https://caraniel.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/fatezero-ep14-scr1.jpg?w=600&h=337
"Gods, listening to the petty whims of mortals? You offend me with your vulgarity."

In all seriousness, gods in fictional works are usually so far beyond mere mortals that directly interacting with them would be like an ant striking up a conversation with you. The scale and scope of difference is so vast, you'd never even notice it was happening.

This is why gods have layers of servants, followers, clerics, paladins, and so on. I mean, there are myths of some gods actually doing such things, but... Well, I didn't use that image* just for a lark.

*See 'The Epic of Gilgamesh' for more information on why this is not usually such a great thing.

[ATHATH]

Why not just use the Planescape setting? It seems to meet the criteria of what you're looking for.

[Arbane]

https://caraniel.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/fatezero-ep14-scr1.jpg?w=600&h=337
"Gods, listening to the petty whims of mortals? You offend me with your vulgarity."


Oh, you do know Exalted! (Seriously, Gilgamesh is such a perfect arrogant First Age Solar, right down to the gold armor and OP weapons.)



In all seriousness, gods in fictional works are usually so far beyond mere mortals that directly interacting with them would be like an ant striking up a conversation with you. The scale and scope of difference is so vast, you'd never even notice it was happening.

Have you never read any mythology? Outside of one specific group of real-world religions, gods can be just as petty, fallible, and relateable as humans - just somewhat bigger. (Just ask the ancient Greeks - there's maybe like 5 people in their entire mythology that aren't descended from Zeus and family on one side or another. Or the ordinary humans who travelled with Thor. Or all the Americans Coyote's tricked. Or...) And how much bigger can vary wildly. Transcendence and moral perfection are strictly optional.

And if the gods can't notice humans, why would anyone bother worshipping them?



*See 'The Epic of Gilgamesh' for more information on why this is not usually such a great thing.

You mean the one where a large part of the trouble is caused by a goddess getting angry when the demigod main character she's trying to seduce tells her to buzz off? Yeah, so transcendent. :smallamused:

[Tohsaka Rin]

Oh, you do know Exalted! (Seriously, Gilgamesh is such a perfect arrogant First Age Solar, right down to the gold armor and OP weapons.)



Have you never read any mythology? Outside of one specific group of real-world religions, gods can be just as petty, fallible, and relateable as humans - just somewhat bigger. (Just ask the ancient Greeks - there's maybe like 5 people in their entire mythology that aren't descended from Zeus and family on one side or another. Or the ordinary humans who travelled with Thor. Or all the Americans Coyote's tricked. Or...) And how much bigger can vary wildly. Transcendence and moral perfection are strictly optional.

And if the gods can't notice humans, why would anyone bother worshipping them?



You mean the one where a large part of the trouble is caused by a goddess getting angry when the demigod main character she's trying to seduce tells her to buzz off? Yeah, so transcendent. :smallamused:

I would have said 'gods are like that one guy you went to school with. You know the one. the one that doesn't give a rat's behind about anyone else's problems, right up until it directly affects him, then all of a sudden, it's end-of-the-world level stuff. up until that point, it's all drinking, parties, getting laid, and whatever petty BS he's into at the moment. sure, he's your best friend, and the life of the party... so long as things are going well/in his favor, but once the moment turns, it's all about him, his issues, his problems, and nothing else neither matters, nor is as important as what he's dealing with now. him being out of beer is MUCH more important than the fact that your girl/boyfriend who just got stabbed and needs an EMT.' but I forgot what color maybe-but-not-really snarking is supposed to be.

...So yeah, I know greek mythology pretty well, why do you ask? :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, that's what I meant about scale and scope. When the gods have a horse in the race, then sure, they're all for giving Perseus a pile of magical treasure, or invading Troy. Or throwing a hissy-fit when Ulysses forgets to thank the one god that is in charge of the highways (the ocean, for this joke) that he needs to use in order to get home.

But grandma is sick? 'nope! sorry! busy throwing a shindig on Mount Olympus. You should come, we have ambrosia! Let your wife take care of grandma, that's what women are for! Oh, not you, Athena, you rock!'

Ants only draw your attention, when they're getting into your picnic. Or your house.

[Arbane]

Yeah, that sounds significantly more mythological. Still, they should be at least a little susceptible to bribery.

[Gildedragon]

https://caraniel.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/fatezero-ep14-scr1.jpg?w=600&h=337
"Gods, listening to the petty whims of mortals? You offend me with your vulgarity."

In all seriousness, gods in fictional works are usually so far beyond mere mortals that directly interacting with them would be like an ant striking up a conversation with you. The scale and scope of difference is so vast, you'd never even notice it was happening.

This is why gods have layers of servants, followers, clerics, paladins, and so on. I mean, there are myths of some gods actually doing such things, but... Well, I didn't use that image* just for a lark.

*See 'The Epic of Gilgamesh' for more information on why this is not usually such a great thing.

Even physical gods in DnD needn't be so wholly aloof or snide.

In fact, DnD style gods probably wouldn't DARE to brush off a suplicant that actually got to them personally. Any god that did that (unless they're the only game in town), would soon find out that mortals would rather worship more attentive deities*; and if belief powers them (as it does in some settings) they'd find themselves waning in power and withering quite fast**.

In fact, with their bureaucracy of adepts and clerics and paladins***, any problem that that system couldn't solve probably merits their attention. Either because the organizational diagram is failing somehow (how was it easier to get to Wee Jas's presence than to get one of her priests to help a grieving mortal), the problem is HUGE, or you got a ridiculously singleminded mortal possibly worshiper (and those tend to be fun or dangerous)

The trick is being hard enough to contact directly that it is easier to find an adequately leveled cleric and get them to Do The Thing than it is to get to the Deity personally. (and one has to figure out how personal the cleric spell bestowing is: do they perceive every request, or is it reflexive, or not even that and whatever mechanism works for ideal clerics works also for deity clerics)

But even then... Commune exists. Clerics will use it. A LOT.
Artificers will make schemas of it.
Urpriests will probably try to phreak or DDoS you via wondrous architecture that casts it for every suplicant that touches it.
Part of being a god is CARING (again this is only if either faith is power, or gods are somehow tied to their portfolio).
Their mental stats aren't that great****. Zeus has 28 Wis, his better Clerics are way above that! Thus the Divine Ranks need to allow them to perceive things in such a way that they do not grow overwhelmed or jaded by their power; give them the stamina to be able to keep godding.

Also narratively the trope of gods going incognito and checking out the world and blessing/cursing random folk is a fairly common one.

And while one might play a god as jaded... There's no real reason for that. I'd argue that the divine resilience ought keep them from becoming jaded, at least to their own portfolio.


*which raises the problem of evil deities... But dnd's morality and feudal style religion (pick one god among several to be your liege) is a bit wonky
**I believe this was the intent of Ao in FR. Faith to keep the gods honest: he failed. But for other reasons
***Also gods that aren't quite good might find themselves without the PR exemplars that are paladins. Having pallies means that you're a god that encourages prosocial behavior
****Thus the "problems are as ants" is total BS and posturing (thus more suitable for blowhards that wish to artificially inflate the distance between them and their suplicants, if only to disguise that the only difference between them is Power). And even if you find the score impressive, that wisdom would probably make the score-haver see the unity and alikeness of them and their suplicants, let them be awed and amazed by details that escape ordinary mental scores

[Florian]

Conceptually, it´s important to decide whether a "god" is the representation of the thing or just some super-powerful entity.
Having the gods *be* the thing that they have dominion over can be quite interesting and affect how they or their avatars interact with the world.
When Ares *is* war, then you must not necessarily be pious to accept that, but you can still pray to him for guidance and success when it comes to war.

[Telok]

Well Vivec from the old TES Morrowind game was a living god, big honking temple complex, big ugly secrets.

[Gildedragon]

Unless the deity in question offers the Luck Domain. If they're intelligent enough, they could recognize their capacity to use Miracle to spam Baleful Polymorph onto individual blades of grass, then Awaken the newly created animals for the sake of mass producing worshipers. At a rate of 1 new worshiper every 2 rounds, a demigod could ascend to greater deity status in less than 20 weeks.

Provided they keep treating the new creations well enough to gain their faith.
After all they aren't mindless in their service...
Which puts the deity back at square one re. the treatment of their devout.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Keep in mind that a setting like this will have an even worse version of The Elminister Problem than usual - "Well, if this quest is important, why hasn't (uberNPC) already done it with a snap of their fingers?" (Exalted gets around this by having most gods fairly minor, and the really powerful ones sequestered in Heaven, playing games while the world falls apart.)
Also, anything that can challenge Exalted PCs is going to challenge most minor gods.



Unless the deity in question offers the Luck Domain. If they're intelligent enough, they could recognize their capacity to use Miracle to spam Baleful Polymorph onto individual blades of grass, then Awaken the newly created animals for the sake of mass producing worshipers. At a rate of 1 new worshiper every 2 rounds, a demigod could ascend to greater deity status in less than 20 weeks.
Can baleful polymorph affect grass? (And isn't that kind of the divine equivalent of Pun-Pun, only less creative?)



Re: OP: Another thing to consider is how much like us do they act...or, perhaps more specifically, which of us they act like. A god who acts like a (human) dictator so wrapped up in their propaganda that they think of themselves as divine is going to be different than one who acts like a (human) religious leader of great stature or some random (human) guy down at the bar.

[Grim Portent]

It might be worth considering the potential of deities being the patrons of cities, especially the one they live in.

It was common in ancient Greece for a city to be associated very heavily with a specific god, Athens and Athena being the most obvious example. It was more or less expected that any athenian citizen would pay homage to Athena as well as other gods, or possibly even pay homage to Athena above all other gods.

If a given city had a literal deity living in it I would expect there to be strong cultural pressure to worship that one instead of one further away.



I'd probably have the gods be titannic beings, dwarfing most buildings and dwelling in a large temple complex with a city built around it. Only leaving the temple grounds to avert major disasters that threaten the city like earthquakes, the gods would spend most of their time resting or wandering the grounds and appreciating the surroundings or imbibing sacrifices of food and drink.

Petitioners would come to ask for their aid in person, but none would be directly answered, instead a small number would find their plea would be resolved in a miraculous manner but with no apparent action from the god. Like tripping over a bag of coins while leaving the temple so you can pay off your dead father's debts, or finding a medicinal herb needed to cure your sick child growing behind your shed when you return to your home.

A tiny number of people, not even necessarily including high ranking priests, would be directly spoken to by the gods, seemingly arbitrarily or in response to matters of extreme importance to the god or the city it lives in.

If the city diverges too far from the principles and practices the god likes it would probably cause some portents to frighten people, and if things continue to slide it would smite some stuff it finds particularly offensive.

Being gods, it's possible they wouldn't need to live nearby to speak to one another, or they could periodically travel to a single location to commune with one another every few decades, which could be a major religious event and time of miracles as the gods stride out from their normal domain and walk the lands for a time.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The idea of gods being gigantic and having cities built on top of them kinda cracks me up. "Dammit, I nap for just five decades and these bozos decide to build a city on me! Ugh...as long as they don't use my nose for waste disposal, I might as well make the best of this."

[GreatWyrmGold]

(Not sure how one can objectively measure creativity, but I agree that it's Pun-Pun-y.)
I guess you can't, but subjectively, it seems less creative. At least Pun-Pun had to take a look at the Sarukh ability and think about what abilities it could give itself to make it so powerful.

[Gildedragon]

"Worship me while I make you some more friends."


The Plant Type description states that regular plants are actually treated as objects, so I guess not. However, if the deity also had the Trickery Domain, they could permanently transform a leaf into a tree with Polymorph Any Object, take off a leaf, Awaken the tree, then repeat the cycle.

(Not sure how one can objectively measure creativity, but I agree that it's Pun-Pun-y.)

Worship comes with petitions though, and needs some faith... And the beings are mortal.

If Purr-es God of War and Catnip stops taking care of his created cat worshipers he's back at square one; and if he is capable of caring for them then he should not have had the need to create these worshipers

[ATHATH]

Again, why not just use Planescape?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Again, why not just use Planescape?
Um, because some people like worldbuilding? (And/or don't want to use an existing setting instead of putting in the work to make one of their own.)