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Mike Miller
2017-07-25, 08:14 PM
Has anyone tried to make any prestige classes into base class progressions? Given the sheer number of PrCs I wouldn't expect ALL of them to be done, but I would be interested in seeing people's work towards some, if they exist. I've been toying with the idea myself, but I wasn't sure where to start.

Jormengand
2017-07-25, 08:40 PM
Has anyone tried to make any prestige classes into base class progressions? Given the sheer number of PrCs I wouldn't expect ALL of them to be done, but I would be interested in seeing people's work towards some, if they exist. I've been toying with the idea myself, but I wasn't sure where to start.

If you click the homebrew link in my sig, you'll fine some base prestige classes. A lot of them would be a lot different if I redid them now, though.

Mike Miller
2017-07-25, 08:54 PM
If you click the homebrew link in my sig, you'll fine some base prestige classes. A lot of them would be a lot different if I redid them now, though.

Thanks, those are some interesting ideas

Deleted
2017-07-25, 09:07 PM
I absolutely love d20srd.org because it has almost everything someone could want when it comes to 3e./3.5..

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm

If you are going to turn classes into prestige classes (or vice versa) here is an official example of them turning base classes into prestige classes.

Deepbluediver
2017-07-26, 07:43 PM
My experience with PRCs is that they have one specific thing (theme) that they are built around, and some of them were really stretching to reach 10 levels. If you're going to turn PRC's into base classes, I'd look for other PRCs with a similar theme and think about combining them.

Deleted
2017-07-26, 07:57 PM
My experience with PRCs is that they have one specific thing (theme) that they are built around, and some of them were really stretching to reach 10 levels. If you're going to turn PRC's into base classes, I'd look for other PRCs with a similar theme and think about combining them.

Sadly, most base classes have this same problem in pretty much every edition of D&D.

Knitifine
2017-07-26, 08:15 PM
Has anyone tried to make any prestige classes into base class progressions? Given the sheer number of PrCs I wouldn't expect ALL of them to be done, but I would be interested in seeing people's work towards some, if they exist. I've been toying with the idea myself, but I wasn't sure where to start.

If you've got a suggestion, I could do a quick mock up.

Mike Miller
2017-07-26, 09:06 PM
If you've got a suggestion, I could do a quick mock up.

Well, I didn't have anything concrete in mind. I just enjoy reading the homebrew stuff and I hadn't seen any PrCs turned into base classes before. I do like what Jormengand has done with Arcane Archer and Dragon Disciple, though.

Wristlet Eater
2017-07-26, 09:09 PM
Has anyone tried to make any prestige classes into base class progressions? Given the sheer number of PrCs I wouldn't expect ALL of them to be done, but I would be interested in seeing people's work towards some, if they exist. I've been toying with the idea myself, but I wasn't sure where to start.

Wizards did this before, with Soulknife. It wasn't very good but it is an official example.

Deepbluediver
2017-07-27, 09:07 AM
Sadly, most base classes have this same problem in pretty much every edition of D&D.
Yeah, but some concepts can actually fill 20 levels all on their own, like a Wizard's spellcasting, and some can't (or do so poorly) like the Fighter's bonus feats.

PRCs seemed to take that up to 11 by specializing in things like "casting abjuration spells really really well" or "hunting evil dragons". There are even a few 5-level PRCs that I think should have just been a feat or an ACF. A lot of the PRCs I've read almost seemed like they were designed more for GM's to use when making NPCs that the party will meet and either fight or possibly recruit for one mission, and then they move on instead of for use by players. For a full 20-level base class that is expected to encounter lots of different kinds of....encounters, what you need is variety, and I don't see that in most PRCs.


Well, I didn't have anything concrete in mind. I just enjoy reading the homebrew stuff and I hadn't seen any PrCs turned into base classes before. I do like what Jormengand has done with Arcane Archer and Dragon Disciple, though.
I'm unfamiliar with those brews, but I've got a file on my computer right now (never wrote it up for the forum) where I combined the Dragon Disciple with the Dragon Shaman (PHII) to make what I feel is a more viable and well-themed class. That's what I meant about looking for different concepts that are already similar, so you can mix and match the good bits and take inspiration from more than one source.

Deleted
2017-07-27, 09:39 AM
Yeah, but some concepts can actually fill 20 levels all on their own, like spellcasting, and some can't (or do so poorly) like Fighter bonus feats.

PRCs seemed to take that up to 11 by specializing in things like "casting abjuration spells really really well" or "hunting evil dragons". There are even a few 5-level PRCs that I think should have just been a feat or an ACF. A lot of the PRCs I've read almost seemed like they were designed for GM's to use when making NPCs that the party will meet and either fight or possibly recruit for one mission, and then they move on. For a full 20-level base class that is expected to encounter lots of different kinds of....encounters, what you need is variety, and I don't see that in most PRCs.


Not very well.

Even the Wizard's base class in 3.5 is less of a full base class and more of a spell list that happens to have a very thinly stretched base class. The sorcerer is even worse, you are playing a spell list at that point (just a very charismatic one).

Most 3.5 classes are actually about 6-10 levels or so long (which is why e6 works wonders) and stretched out to 20. There is a lot of abilities that repeat (bonus feats) or are just features that scaled from earlier (trapsense or sneak attack) and it gives you some symbolence of filler that really isn't there.

And yeah, I get that spell casting is a class feature, but the difference between casting spells is what makes a class a class, not what level you can cast. Not getting 9th level spells doesn't make your wizard any less of a wizard, especially since a majority of wizards don't ever get that far.

Deepbluediver
2017-07-27, 10:00 AM
Not very well.

Even the Wizard's base class in 3.5 is less of a full base class and more of a spell list that happens to have a very thinly stretched base class. The sorcerer is even worse, you are playing a spell list at that point (just a very charismatic one).

Most 3.5 classes are actually about 6-10 levels or so long (which is why e6 works wonders) and stretched out to 20. There is a lot of abilities that repeat (bonus feats) or are just features that scaled from earlier (trapsense or sneak attack) and it gives you some symbolence of filler that really isn't there.

And yeah, I get that spell casting is a class feature, but the difference between casting spells is what makes a class a class, not what level you can cast. Not getting 9th level spells doesn't make your wizard any less of a wizard, especially since a majority of wizards don't ever get that far.
Fair enough- I guess that depends a bit on how your define just what a concept is. I could claim that each school of spellcasting is it's own concept, and therefore a Wizard gets 8 of them. What I was really getting at though was that spellcasting is interesting enough in most cases to fill out 20 levels without a player feeling useless or lacking for options. PRCs are over-specialized and lack for options (most of them anyway, IMO) which is why handbooks that use them don't recommend more than dips.
If I'm not understanding what point you're trying to make, is there a 3.5 class that you believe does 20 full levels well?

Anyway, back to the main topic, the reason I recommended looking for classes to combine was to make a class that a player can be perfectly satisfied with for all 20 levels. It doesn't have to make people think "OMG I NEED TO TAKE THIS ALL THE WAY TO END!!!" but if you combine repeated features like more feats or spells with other newish-stuff, there should be enough there to hold someone's interest if they don't want to bother with multiclassing.

Deleted
2017-07-27, 10:14 AM
Fair enough- I guess that depends a bit on how your define just what a concept is. I could claim that each school of spellcasting is it's own concept, and therefore a Wizard gets 8 of them. What I was really getting at though was that spellcasting is interesting enough in most cases to fill out 20 levels without a player feeling useless or lacking for options. PRCs are over-specialized and lack for options (most of them anyway, IMO) which is why handbooks that use them don't recommend more than dips.
If I'm not understanding what point you're trying to make, is there a 3.5 class that you believe does 20 full levels well?

Anyway, back to the main topic, the reason I recommended looking for classes to combine was to make a class that a player can be perfectly satisfied with for all 20 levels. It doesn't have to make people think "OMG I NEED TO TAKE THIS ALL THE WAY TO END!!!" but if you combine repeated features like more feats or spells with other newish-stuff, there should be enough there to hold someone's interest if they don't want to bother with multiclassing.

There really isn't a class that goes the full 20 levels, that I can think of off the top of my head.

Even with the traditions from the wizard, that's 5 levels of stuff (one for each bonus feats) and it doesn't really increase the number of levels that the wizard actually is.

Deepbluediver
2017-07-27, 10:27 AM
There really isn't a class that goes the full 20 levels, that I can think of off the top of my head.

Even with the traditions from the wizard, that's 5 levels of stuff (one for each bonus feats) and it doesn't really increase the number of levels that the wizard actually is.
Alright, but playing a Wizard for 20 levels would still be interesting and fun, right? Because you've got 8 different themed schools and 70+* pages of spells to choose from in the PHB alone.

Whereas if you take a PRC class they usually have themes like "giant-slayer", and you're not going to find a player let alone an entire party that wants to spend 20 levels killing the same type of enemy over and over again. That's something you should boil down to a feat and a weapon with the [Type]-Bane enchantment, or maybe as PART OF another class, like the ranger.
I actually went the other way around, and turned a base class, the Paladin, into a PRC, even though "holy champion of the gods" is probably broad enough to fill 20 levels.


*[the PHB actually has over 100 pages of spells, but the Sorc/Wiz spell-list doesn't include all of them, so I'm estimating]

Deleted
2017-07-27, 10:53 AM
Alright, but playing a Wizard for 20 levels would still be interesting and fun, right? Because you've got 8 different themed schools and 70+* pages of spells to choose from in the PHB alone.

Whereas if you take a PRC class they usually have themes like "giant-slayer", and you're not going to find a player let alone an entire party that wants to spend 20 levels killing the same type of enemy over and over again. That's something you should boil down to a feat and a weapon with the [Type]-Bane enchantment, or maybe as PART OF another class, like the ranger.
I actually went the other way around, and turned a base class, the Paladin, into a PRC, even though "holy champion of the gods" is probably broad enough to fill 20 levels.


*[the PHB actually has over 100 pages of spells, but the Sorc/Wiz spell-list doesn't include all of them, so I'm estimating]

Playing the Wizard's spell list is fun and interesting. Give the spell list to any class (or commoner) and you get the same results. Heck, get rid of the Wizard's class features (familiar and bonus feats) and you still have the same experience.

So, the class isn't really what is doing it, the spell list is. Yes the spell list is married to the class, but it isnt much of a class without the spell list.

PrC have the same issues, sure, but many base classes aren't all that different.

Deepbluediver
2017-07-27, 10:58 AM
Playing the Wizard's spell list is fun and interesting. Give the spell list to any class (or commoner) and you get the same results. Heck, get rid of the Wizard's class features (familiar and bonus feats) and you still have the same experience.

So, the class isn't really what is doing it, the spell list is. Yes the spell list is married to the class, but it isnt much of a class without the spell list.

PrC have the same issues, sure, but many base classes aren't all that different.
I'm not really sure that I get what your complaint is then- that the Wizard doesn't have enough fluff? That it doesn't do things that other classes can't do that aren't spells?

You say that when you play a Wizard you're basically just playing a spell-list, but there are lots of different spell-lists in D&D, and I don't see why they're less legitimate than other class features.

Deleted
2017-07-27, 11:22 AM
I'm not really sure that I get what your complaint is then- that the Wizard doesn't have enough fluff? That it doesn't do things that other classes can't do that aren't spells?

You say that when you play a Wizard you're basically just playing a spell-list, but there are lots of different spell-lists in D&D, and I don't see why they're less legitimate than other class features.

The wizard is lacking on class features that revolve around them being wizards. Casting from the wizard list doesn't make one a wizard, many classes can pull from the wizard list (though WotC was smart and gave base classes their own list). What makes the wizard, a wizard, is how they cast (spellbook) and any specific features they get to modify how they cast (bonus feats). If there is 5 levels between those features, those 5 levels may as well be dead as you aren't becoming more of a wizard, you are just becoming more of a wizard spell list.

I'm saying that the wizard isn't a 20 level class, much like many other classes in 3e. There is a ton of bloat and filler that forces it to 20, but it's all artificial and not intrinsic to the class itself. The wizard is hardly the only class like this but it's a great example of this.

PrC have this issue too, however they aren't forced as much or stretched as thinly as base classes.

So, the OP really shouldn't be worried about PrCs that are stretched thin or whatever as this is par for the game.

Deepbluediver
2017-07-27, 11:27 AM
The wizard is lacking on class features that revolve around them being wizards. Casting from the wizard list doesn't make one a wizard, many classes can pull from the wizard list (though WotC was smart and gave base classes their own list). What makes the wizard, a wizard, is how they cast (spellbook) and any specific features they get to modify how they cast (bonus feats). If there is 5 levels between those features, those 5 levels may as well be dead as you aren't becoming more of a wizard, you are just becoming more of a wizard spell list.
But casting spells is what makes a Wizard- without spells, what are they? The fact that other classes can use some of those same spells doesn't mean they aren't still central to the Wizard's theme. How many classes do you have that revolve around hitting things with sharp bits of metal? Do BAB, bonus feats, and a good hit dice not count as class features just because they aren't unique? Are you saying we shouldn't have classes that replicate the same effects even if they have different ways of going about it?


I'm saying that the wizard isn't a 20 level class, much like many other classes in 3e. There is a ton of bloat and filler that forces it to 20, but it's all artificial and not intrinsic to the class itself. The wizard is hardly the only class like this but it's a great example of this.
If you can't think of even a single class in 3.5 that represents a well-done 20 level progression then I think your problem is with the design of the system and not the classes themselves.

Edit: Is there a HOMEBREW class that you think does it well?


PrC have this issue too, however they aren't forced as much or stretched as thinly as base classes.
They aren't as stretched but they also tend to have much narrower concepts in the first place. So while there isn't as much bread to spread it across, you've also got less butter to go around.


So, the OP really shouldn't be worried about PrCs that are stretched thin or whatever as this is par for the game.
I disagree- you should want to make good, interesting, and above all FUN classes. Just because some parts of the system are poorly designed doesn't mean we should lower our standards to that level for everything- the whole point of homebrew is to IMPROVE the game. In terms of versatility (not power) you should look to be more like the Wizard and less like the Fighter.


Edit2: In your mind, how should progression work for a class? I'm not familiar with the e6 you mentioned, but you seemed to like that.

Jormengand
2017-07-27, 11:59 AM
I have a homebrew version of wizard which Deleted might prefer. It's exactly the same, except that the table's drawn up like this:

LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
1st+0+0+0+2Spells (3 0lvl, 1 1st), Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll
2nd+1+0+0+3Spells (4 0lvl, 2 1st)
3rd+1+1+1+3Spells (4 0lvl, 2 1st, 1 2nd)
4th+2+1+1+4Spells (4 0lvl, 3 1st, 2 2nd)
5th+2+1+1+4Spells (4 0lvl, 3 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd), Bonus Feat
6th+3+2+2+5Spells (4 0lvl, 3 1st, 3 2nd, 1 2rd)
7th+3+2+2+5Spells (4 0lvl, 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd, 1 4th)


...and so forth. Suddenly, the wizard has class features!

Wait, no. They always had class features. At every odd level except nineteenth, the wizard comes up with a brand new ability which they didn't have access to before, and at every level they learn more abilities which they may have had access to but didn't take before. They certainly aren't "Stretched thin". Spells are real class features, y'know?

Knitifine
2017-07-27, 04:44 PM
I had some free time, so I mocked up a base class version of the blackguard. I wanted to keep it as close to the PrC as possible, so... enjoy.
Note: I didn't bother reproducing the description of any ability that was covered in the original PrC.


The Blackguard

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Blackguards have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Blackguards require high strength and charisma scores, and can make good use of high constitution and dexterity scores.
Alignment: Any evil.
Hit Die: d10
Starting Age: As paladin.
Starting Gold: As paladin.

Class Skills
The Blackguard's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...
Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Forgery (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Knowledge (Religion (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Blackguard


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
0
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


1st

+1

+2

+0

+2
Aura of Evil, Detect Good, Familiar

1

-

-

-

-


2nd

+2

+3

+0

+3
Dark Blessing, Smite Good 1/Day

2

-

-

-

-


3rd

+3

+3

+1

+3
Sneak attack +1d6

3

-

-

-

-


4th

+4

+4

+1

+4
Command Undead

3

0

-

-

-


5th

+5

+4

+1

+4
Skeletal Companion

3

0

-

-

-]


6th

+6/+1

+5

+2

+5
Smite Good 2/Day

3

1

-

-

-


7th

+7/+2

+5

+2

+5
Sneak attack +2d6

3

1

-

-

-


8th

+8/+3

+6

+2

+6
Dark Embrace

3

1

0

-

-


9th

+9/+4

+6

+3

+6
Aura of Despair

3

1

0

-

-


10th

+10/+5

+7

+3

+7
Smite Good 3/Day

3

1

1

-

-


11th

+11/+6/+1

+7

+3

+7
Sneak attack +3d6

3

1

1

0

-


12th

+12/+7/+2

+8

+4

+8
Fiendish Boon

3

1

1

1

-


13th

+13/+8/+3

+8

+4

+8
Fiendish Resilience

3

1

1

1

-


14th

+14/+9/+4

+9

+4

+9
Smite Good 4/Day

3

2

1

1

0


15th

+15/+10/+5

+9

+5

+9
Sneak attack +3d6

3

2

1

1

1


16th

+16/+11/+6/+1

+10

+5

+10
Stolen Face

3

2

2

1

1


17th

+17/+12/+7/+2

+10

+5

+10
Poison Immunity

3

2

2

2

1


18th

+18/+13/+8/+3

+11

+6

+11
Smite Good 5/Day

3

3

2

2

1


19th

+19/+14/+9/+4

+11

+6

+11
Sneak attack +4d6

3

3

3

3

2


20th

+20/+15/+10/+5

+12

+6

+12
Consume Soul

3

3

3

3

3



Class Feature
All of the following are class features of the Blackguard.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blackguards are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Familiar: At 1st level, the blackguard gains a familiar, as the wizard/sorcerer class feature.

Skeletal Companion: At 5th level, the blackguard gains a skeleton as a companion. This is a medium humanoid skeleton with a number of bonus HD equal to the blackguard's level -1. This skeleton does not count against the number of undead creatures a blackguard may control. A blackguard of this level who takes the leadership feat never gains a cohort, instead their skeleton counts as their cohort for all purposes. If the blackguard already has the leadership feat and a cohort, the cohort immediately leaves their service.

Dark Embrace (Ex): At 8th level, the Blackguard gains the ability to absorb and resist most necrotic effects. They are healed by negative energy as if they were undead (though they are still healed, and not harmed by positive energy). Additionally, they gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against all necromancy spells.

Fiendish Boon (Ex): At 12th level, the blackguard's familiar and skeletal companion gains an additional benefit. Each companion gains the fiendish template (even though a skeleton is usually disqualified from gaining the template)

Fiendish Reslience (Ex): At 13th level, the blackguard gains some of the powers of otherworldly creatures for themself. They gain resistance 5 to fire, cold and electricity.

Stolen Face (Su): At 16th level, the blackguard can erase the identity of their victims. Any creature killed by the blackguard may be stripped of their facial features, fingerprints and other identifying marks leaving a fleshy mannikin of a corpse. The blackguard gains a +10 bonus to disguise checks to appear as the target and ateempts to resurrect the affected creature fail (except True Resurrection and Reincarnate).

Consume Soul (Sp): At 20th level, any creature killed by the blackguard has their soul pulled from their body and contained within the blackguard's own body (as Trap the Soul, with the blackguard's body serving as a the gem). As a full round action the blackguard may consume a stored soul, destroying it and regaining all of their spells per day.

0 Level Spells: The 0 level spells of the blackguard are chosen from the cleric spell list.

Southern Cross
2017-07-31, 12:51 AM
I've been considering converting the sublime chord PRC into the spellsinger base class. The first question I have to ask is whether spellsingers should retain the bardic requirement of a nonlawful alignment.

Morphic tide
2017-07-31, 03:52 AM
I've been considering converting the sublime chord PRC into the spellsinger base class. The first question I have to ask is whether spellsingers should retain the bardic requirement of a nonlawful alignment.

Replace with not being able to be an extreme alignment including Lawful. So non-LE/LG. This mixes the Bard and Druid restrictions.

gooddragon1
2017-07-31, 05:46 AM
If you click the homebrew link in my sig, you'll fine some base prestige classes. A lot of them would be a lot different if I redid them now, though.

I wish your arcane archer did allow over +5. It's totally possible.

Deleted
2017-07-31, 12:47 PM
I have a homebrew version of wizard which Deleted might prefer. It's exactly the same, except that the table's drawn up like this:

LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
1st+0+0+0+2Spells (3 0lvl, 1 1st), Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll
2nd+1+0+0+3Spells (4 0lvl, 2 1st)
3rd+1+1+1+3Spells (4 0lvl, 2 1st, 1 2nd)
4th+2+1+1+4Spells (4 0lvl, 3 1st, 2 2nd)
5th+2+1+1+4Spells (4 0lvl, 3 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd), Bonus Feat
6th+3+2+2+5Spells (4 0lvl, 3 1st, 3 2nd, 1 2rd)
7th+3+2+2+5Spells (4 0lvl, 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd, 1 4th)


...and so forth. Suddenly, the wizard has class features!

Wait, no. They always had class features. At every odd level except nineteenth, the wizard comes up with a brand new ability which they didn't have access to before, and at every level they learn more abilities which they may have had access to but didn't take before. They certainly aren't "Stretched thin". Spells are real class features, y'know?

The issue is that you are playing a spell list and not a base class, your base class of wizard gives you very little and everything is coming from the spell list.

4e tried to fix this a little but really 5e is the edition that went "oh, let's make the class the focal point and not the spell list". Right out of the gate your class determines more about you than the spells you happen to take. You're a wizard first and a spell list second.

Jormengand
2017-07-31, 03:53 PM
The issue is that you are playing a spell list and not a base class, your base class of wizard gives you very little and everything is coming from the spell list.

4e tried to fix this a little but really 5e is the edition that went "oh, let's make the class the focal point and not the spell list". Right out of the gate your class determines more about you than the spells you happen to take. You're a wizard first and a spell list second.

I mean that's like saying that a ranger's power comes from the list of animal companions it's allowed, the list of combat styles it's allowed to take, and the list of viable types and subtypes to be your favoured enemy - it's not, strictly speaking, wrong, it's just a kinda "No duh" thing which doesn't actually say anything about how interesting the class is.

gooddragon1
2017-07-31, 09:58 PM
I mean that's like saying that a ranger's power comes from the list of animal companions it's allowed, the list of combat styles it's allowed to take, and the list of viable types and subtypes to be your favoured enemy - it's not, strictly speaking, wrong, it's just a kinda "No duh" thing which doesn't actually say anything about how interesting the class is.

Maybe some class specific features that alter how your spells work? Spontaneous conversions to certain effects?