Spheres of Power - Ghost Strike semantics question

[Van Silke]

This question is related to Pathfinder, and 3rd party magic system of Spheres of Power.

As a short backdrop, Spheres of Power are a 3rd party magic system which - instead of vancian spells and schools of magic - have Spheres, each with its own theme. Each sphere provides an ability the caster can use at-will, and can spend spellpoints from a small pool to create more powerful effects.

Among those is a Death Sphere provides an ability called Ghost Strike. But by Urgathoa, isn't its wording wonky.

Relevant quote:

"As a standard action, you may make a ghost strike, summoning negative energy and throwing it at a target within Medium range as a ranged touch attack. A ghost strike is considered a negative energy death effect, and as such has no effect on undead, constructs, elementals, and other creatures immune to such things (although some talents provide exceptions)."

emphasis mine.

Only, it doesn't make much sense when you consider most of the effects a Ghost Strike can provide. Among those, you can find:

fatiguing/exhausting (status)
sickening/nauseating (status)
inflicting ability penalties (Str/Dex)
inflicting negative levels (energy drain)
applying bleed (status)
cursing (curse descriptor)
commanding undead (just necromancy)
damaging/healing undead (can undead be damaged with negative energy?)
applying damage and granting equal amount of temp hp (actually damage)
inflicting with disease (disease)
killing a target below -1 hp (along with Killing Curse it's the only applicable, appropriate "death effect" in my eyes)


none of which, at least as far I know (barring the last one) are technically death effects, nor are they connected to negative energy (barring healing undead, and applying damage...?). I'm not even sure negative energy resistance/immunity is even a thing, except from plain reduction in hp damage.

Not to mention, that elementals don't even fit in, as they're not immune/resistant to negative energy, nor death effects.

What do you think?
1) What is, and what isn't a "negative energy death effect"? Does specific beat the general rules? (this question is best answered for each case)
2) What's up with elementals? Can I just assume, that the writer simply didn't fact-check this description? How big of a can of worms would this assumption lead to?

[Mehangel]

I really dont see what the big deal is with labeling all the Death sphere abilities as negative energy death effects. Just as I dont really see a problem with labeling all the Mind sphere abilities as Enchantment (compulsion) mind-affecting abilities. Or similarly how I dont see a problem with labeling all Alteration sphere abilities as Polymorph effects.

[Necroticplague]

What do you think?
1) What is, and what isn't a "negative energy death effect"? Does specific beat the general rules? (this question is best answered for each case)
2) What's up with elementals? Can I just assume, that the writer simply didn't fact-check this description? How big of a can of worms would this assumption lead to?
1: Anything that says it's a negative energy effect, or that says it's a death effect, is. Thus, all of the uses of Ghost Touch are death affects and negative energy effects, because of your quoted section.
2: Someone probably got a bit confused because they share some of the other immunities of undead and constructs (bleed, poison, stunning, crits, paralysis, sleep, and precision damage). Considering that portion of the sentence is descriptive, and not prescriptive (i.e, it does not make a statement of it's own to serve as a base, it comments on the result of another rule), I would just say it's wrong.

[TheIronGolem]

Only, it doesn't make much sense when you consider most of the effects a Ghost Strike can provide. Among those, you can find:

fatiguing/exhausting (status)
sickening/nauseating (status)
inflicting ability penalties (Str/Dex)
inflicting negative levels (energy drain)
applying bleed (status)
cursing (curse descriptor)
commanding undead (just necromancy)
damaging/healing undead (can undead be damaged with negative energy?)
applying damage and granting equal amount of temp hp (actually damage)
inflicting with disease (disease)
killing a target below -1 hp (along with Killing Curse it's the only applicable, appropriate "death effect" in my eyes)


none of which, at least as far I know (barring the last one) are technically death effects, nor are they connected to negative energy (barring healing undead, and applying damage...?).
You're right to note that most of those aren't death effects or negative-energy effects. But that doesn't matter, because those things aren't ghost strike, they're rider effects that can be attached to ghost strike. The ghost strike itself is a negative-energy death effect, regardless of what other effects are or are not attached to it. It's similar to how using a flaming sword is a weapon attack, even though fire isn't a "weapon".

[Necroticplague]

You're right to note that most of those aren't death effects or negative-energy effects. But that doesn't matter, because those things aren't ghost strike, they're rider effects that can be attached to ghost strike.

Actually, the various effects he describes are different types of ghost strike.

[Van Silke]

Actually, the various effects he describes are different types of ghost strike.

Correct. A Ghost Strike in itself is not a usable ability - upon unlocking the base Death sphere, you learn your first Strike, the Exhausting strike, the first one mentioned. These effects don't overlap, and each of them has its own entry detailing their unique effects, using Ghost Strike as a base template.

As for someone's flaming longsword comparison, it's either half-true, or I don't understand it, sorry. True, a flaming longsword operates like a normal longsword, but fire itself usually targets other resistances.

I suggest you look up Spheres of Power, Death Sphere. My post count, unfortunately, prevents me from sending the link.

By technicality, a Ghost Strike would become a literal "death effect" only if I gain a Killing Curse talent, which automatically kills the target if they fail their save 3 times within a minute, applicable to all Ghost Strikes which allow saves.

[Mehangel]

I think one purpose of making all Ghost Strike abilities classified as negative energy or death effects is to allow magic items or core spells that give bonuses vs such effects be effective.

I also think you are being too literal with the whole "death effect" text. Spheres of Power is about building characters around concepts and themes. By having all Ghost Strike abilities classified as death effects, it encourages a specific image or fluff associated with the strike. Using Ghost Strike to give exhaustion to a creature would probably appear with the creature showing definite signs of atrophy. Depending upon the hp state of the creature in question, it is very possible for said creature to immediately die from exhaustion, just as it would be possible for the creature to immediately die from the immediate onset of specific diseases.

[TheIronGolem]

Actually, the various effects he describes are different types of ghost strike.
No, they're conditions that are inflicted by different types of ghost strike.


Correct. A Ghost Strike in itself is not a usable ability - upon unlocking the base Death sphere, you learn your first Strike, the Exhausting strike, the first one mentioned. These effects don't overlap, and each of them has its own entry detailing their unique effects, using Ghost Strike as a base template.

I'm not arguing that. Each ghost strike is a death effect that imparts a condition. So if you're immune to death effects, the ghost strike won't work on you, even if you're not immune to the condition it would otherwise impart.


As for someone's flaming longsword comparison, it's either half-true, or I don't understand it, sorry. True, a flaming longsword operates like a normal longsword, but fire itself usually targets other resistances.
If you want a different analogy: Stone golems aren't immune to electricity, but Lightning Bolt still doesn't work on them because they're immune to magic. Electricity can hurt them just fine, but not when it's being delivered by a mechanism that can't affect them.

It's the same with, say, Exhausting Strike: it inflicts the Exhausted (or Fatigued) condition, but it does so through the use of negative energy. So if you have some kind of protection from negative energy, it applies to the Exhausting Strike even if you have no particular protection against fatigue effects. You're protected from the effect because you're protected from the source of the effect.

Is your objection simply that SoP is presenting some unusual or unprecedented applications of negative energy? I don't see why that should be a problem.