Core Only Druid, why is it powerful and how?

[gooddragon1]

I've been looking at the druid, and I know that summoning and shapechanging are strong, but I'm not clear on how they could deal with something like a pit fiend that has AC 40 by level 20. If you pick a stronger animal companion they get less bonuses. I'd like to see the bonuses added up for why they would be able to handle an AC that high as well as it's damage reduction if they're core only (I know that out of core is much more powerful, which is why I want to see core only, but if you want you can show how much more powerful that is as well).

[Eldan]

Well, for just a medium optimized druid, hitting AC 40 should not be that hard.

Look at a few wildshapeable creatures by high level:

Dire Boar, 27 strength
Dire Bear, 31 strength
Tendriculous, 28 strength
Earth Elemental (Huge), 29 strength
Treant, 29 strength
Triceratops, 30 strength
Tyrannosaurus, 28 strength

I'm sure there's more. That's just core, many of thse don't even have that many hit dice.

So, let's say +10 to hit from strength. Plus a 15 base attack. That's already a +25 to hit. Note that we have not applied buff spells or items.

[The Insanity]

By not targeting its AC, I'd assume.

[Dancingdeath]

Well, for just a medium optimized druid, hitting AC 40 should not be that hard.

Look at a few wildshapeable creatures by high level:

Dire Boar, 27 strength
Dire Bear, 31 strength
Tendriculous, 28 strength
Earth Elemental (Huge), 29 strength
Treant, 29 strength
Triceratops, 30 strength
Tyrannosaurus, 28 strength

I'm sure there's more. That's just core, many of thse don't even have that many hit dice.

So, let's say +10 to hit from strength. Plus a 15 base attack. That's already a +25 to hit. Note that we have not applied buff spells or items.

And buff can get you around +10 more just off the top of my head. So +35 total. Means you're hitting on a roll of 5 or more. 75% likely to hit. And that's not counting feats.

[gooddragon1]

And buff can get you around +10 more just off the top of my head. So +35 total. Means you're hitting on a roll of 5 or more. 75% likely to hit. And that's not counting feats.

What buffs are giving +10? And what sort of damage would happen against dr 15?

[Dancingdeath]

What buffs are giving +10? And what sort of damage would happen against dr 15?

Greater Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength, and spells that increase size for the Strength increases there.

[Wristlet Eater]

I've been looking at the druid, and I know that summoning and shapechanging are strong, but I'm not clear on how they could deal with something like a pit fiend that has AC 40 by level 20. If you pick a stronger animal companion they get less bonuses. I'd like to see the bonuses added up for why they would be able to handle an AC that high as well as it's damage reduction if they're core only (I know that out of core is much more powerful, which is why I want to see core only, but if you want you can show how much more powerful that is as well).

Melee combat (with self or summons) is not the only Druid capability. For one, the Druid could just Shapechange into a series of Zodars for a bunch of wishes, and even that is only one example of the many devastating things a druid can do that has nothing to do with AC or hitting, I'm just too lazy to look through the spell list.

Also, as others have said, there are many easy ways to improve your meleeing too.

[fire_insideout]

Melee combat (with self or summons) is not the only Druid capability. For one, the Druid could just Shapechange into a series of Zodars for a bunch of wishes, and even that is only one example of the many devastating things a druid can do that has nothing to do with AC or hitting, I'm just too lazy to look through the spell list.

Also, as others have said, there are many easy ways to improve your meleeing too.

Zodar is not core though.

[gooddragon1]

Melee combat (with self or summons) is not the only Druid capability. For one, the Druid could just Shapechange into a series of Zodars for a bunch of wishes, and even that is only one example of the many devastating things a druid can do that has nothing to do with AC or hitting, I'm just too lazy to look through the spell list.

Also, as others have said, there are many easy ways to improve your meleeing too.

The numbers I'm feeling are 3d6+30 over 3 attacks with +37 to hit. Just a rough idea. Is it more than that, or what would you personally do with spells/wishes? Core if possible.

[Wristlet Eater]

Zodar is not core though.

Right, but that is just an example of the kind of thing Druids can do. I don't have the time and expertise to analyze the class closely right now, someone else will have to elaborate on the topic. There are many around here who can do that I am sure.

I can link you to the Druid Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook) though.

[Eldariel]

Dire Tiger with +3 levels bonuses (Druid 18+): 28 base Str (add +6 item for 34), 13 BAB +2 HD, Greater Magic Fang for all its attacks (+5 with Beads of Prayer) already has 12+13+5-1 Size = +29 to hit. Animal Growth for +32 in combat (+34 on a charge, plus 2 Rakes). You could get it +2 more from Ioun Stone and Luck, but that's up to you if you wanna invest.

You can give it Light Armor Prof and Mithril Breast Barding with +5 from e.g. Cleric for +10 AC and perhaps +4 Dex for a total of 32 AC. Barkskin makes that 37 and if you wanna invest in deflection, you can make it 42 without the argument about animals using Animated Shields.

Then just add Air Walk and Freedom of Movement and Death Ward and numerically that matches up fine vs. CR 20 things short of Big T, though it certainly needs help. A modest sum of your wealth and lower level slots suffices, you can make do with under 100k.


Then the Druid himself is probably under Shapechange doing Shapechange things like being whatever under 23ish HD (Beads of Karma + Orange Prism Ioun Stone) in a free action and having all the types and su/ex abilities at his disposal. Tho with just Wild Dragonhide Fullplate, Wild/Animated Heavy Shield and the usual buffs he matches up physically in Wildshape even without Shapechange. But all the abilities... You can do basically anything.

[Soranar]

Ok, so just using your animal companion

by level 20 you can use a dire tiger (which is core)

it has pounce, two claws (2d4+8) 1 bite 2d6 +4

now you can buff is with greater magic fang (level 3 spell, last hours so it doesn't cost an action) for +5 to hit and damage
animal growth (last minutes, +8 to STR)
stoneskin (DR 10/adamantine)

so now it deals 2d6 (size increase) + 17 damage (12 STR +5 greater magic fang) so about 24 damage per claw)
and 3d6 + 11 (half STR + 5) from the bite for about 21.5 damage per bite

your druid can just heal the animal companion (using heal) every couple of rounds and eventually you will kill the pit fiend

the claws deal about 9 damage per hit after DR, the bite deals 6 so you deal 24 damage per round , you should get a crit at some point for it should be over within 9-10 rounds

and in this scenario

-you didn't summon anything to help
-you didn't attack the pit fiend directly
-you didn't cast any spells at the pit fiend

assuming you do all of the above (summon shambling mounds, make a treant out of your staff, summon elementals)

it'll be over a lot sooner than that

[gooddragon1]

Ok, so just using your animal companion

by level 20 you can use a dire tiger (which is core)

it has pounce, two claws (2d4+8) 1 bite 2d6 +4

now you can buff is with greater magic fang (level 3 spell, last hours so it doesn't cost an action) for +5 to hit and damage
animal growth (last minutes, +8 to STR)
stoneskin (DR 10/adamantine)

so now it deals 2d6 (size increase) + 17 damage (12 STR +5 greater magic fang) so about 24 damage per claw)
and 3d6 + 11 (half STR + 5) from the bite for about 21.5 damage per bite

your druid can just heal the animal companion (using heal) every couple of rounds and eventually you will kill the pit fiend

the claws deal about 9 damage per hit after DR, the bite deals 6 so you deal 24 damage per round , you should get a crit at some point for it should be over within 9-10 rounds

and in this scenario

-you didn't summon anything to help
-you didn't attack the pit fiend directly
-you didn't cast any spells at the pit fiend

assuming you do all of the above (summon shambling mounds, make a treant out of your staff, summon elementals)

it'll be over a lot sooner than that

Assuming +6 STR item we'll go with 25 damage per attack for 75 damage over 3 attacks and assuming the Druid can mirror it that'll be 150 - 90 = 60 damage

Orc Barbarian

22 STR+16 (book, item, levels) = 38+8 rage= 46
+5 Gsword of Speed
27 damage str
5 damage enhance
7 average damage
39
24 after DR
24*5=120 damage

To hit
+18 STR
+1 WFocus
+5 Weapon
=
+24
+44/+44/+39/+34/+29

Though that's all the barbarian can do, it took heavy GP investment, and it doesn't count what could happen if the druid also got a +5 str tome (since I think that carries over even if you change shape).

Not sure about the druid's action economy though. Of course, outside of core I think there's the fleshraker and acid claws and stuff so he'd probably win there.

Also, ignoring DR it's 195 to 150 damage. So that's pretty impressive considering almost no GP investment on the part of the Druid.

EDIT: And there's the improved natural attack feat which brings it a little closer.

[Goaty14]

Melee combat (with self or summons) is not the only Druid capability. For one, the Druid could just Shapechange into a series of Zodars for a bunch of wishes, and even that is only one example of the many devastating things a druid can do that has nothing to do with AC or hitting, I'm just too lazy to look through the spell list.

Also, as others have said, there are many easy ways to improve your meleeing too.

The Wizard could also do that, or the sorcerer for all I care.

Druid is broken because it is a full caster WITH Wildshape, granted you took Natural Spell (Which all sane druids do) you should be able to be both a front line fighter AND a full-blown caster (even if you don't use the WS to fight, it still can grant some higher AC forms than you probably have). Also Wildshape means that you can dump Str and Dex, because you'll be in Wildshape most of the time anyways*. A wizard/sorcerer probably won't dump Str or Dex at level 5.

We haven't even mentioned the animal companion, and don't get this thread started on how much worse it could be w/ planar shepherd

*You can access Wildshape at level 5, and it lasts 1 hour * Class level, meaning you can stay wildshaped all day at level 9 (Technically at level 8, but unless you have split-second timing, you'll flash your original form)

[Eldariel]

Assuming +6 STR item we'll go with 25 damage per attack for 75 damage over 3 attacks and assuming the Druid can mirror it that'll be 150 - 90 = 60 damage

Orc Barbarian

22 STR+16 (book, item, levels) = 38+8 rage= 46
+5 Gsword of Speed
27 damage str
5 damage enhance
7 average damage
39
24 after DR
24*5=120 damage

To hit
+18 STR
+1 WFocus
+5 Weapon
=
+24
+44/+44/+39/+34/+29

Though that's all the barbarian can do, it took heavy GP investment, and it doesn't count what could happen if the druid also got a +5 str tome (since I think that carries over even if you change shape).

Not sure about the druid's action economy though. Of course, outside of core I think there's the fleshraker and acid claws and stuff so he'd probably win there.

Also, ignoring DR it's 195 to 150 damage. So that's pretty impressive considering almost no GP investment on the part of the Druid.

EDIT: And there's the improved natural attack feat which brings it a little closer.

Let's remember that the animal companion is a bit random: it peaks at 16 and 18, gaining nothing on 19-20 (next buff is 21 unless you have non-core sources). The companion also has Pounce which makes it way more efficient than the Barbarian on a surprise round or the first round of combat (full attack vs. the Barbarian's single attack, at best a Spirited Charge with a Lance).

The Druid OTOH can do way more. Let's not forget that they probably have Shapechange active and can change form as a free action. That means that among others, they have access to all the following abilities any round: Su Abilities List (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9399.msg151820#msg151820)

Far as their physical prowess goes, they can probably have +11 Strength (+6 enhancement, +5 inherent) and assume the form of e.g. Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm), Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) or Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (or stuff like Dread Wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm#dreadWraith) for completely different angles of attack and the protection of terrain and such). On level 20 with Beads of Karma and Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) is even fair. If they want Pounce there's also Leonal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leonal.htm), Red Slaad (see MM1) or any of the quadropeds. Note that Leonal and Red Slaad can pounce with weapons. Of course, they can charge in a Pouncing form and then switch to e.g. Titan-form. Titan would have 54 (+22) Strength, Gargantuan Weapon Dice and the ability to use items and such.

Of course, Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin and such is still is a thing.

To give you some numbers, Titan Druid (with +11 Str) wielding +5 Greatsword (autosized to Huge as per Polymorph) with Boots of Speed would have 15 + 22 + 5 + 1 - 2 = +41/+41/+36/+31 to hit for 4d6+38 damage. Accounting for DR that makes for 132 damage on average vs. Pit Fiend on a full attack (quick with Power Attack Calculator (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/)). 182 without. You could do more but that's just Shapechange and some strength items. Your Barb averages 128 vs. DR, 183 vs. none on a full attack with optimal Power Attack use. So they're basically even with the Druid pulling a bit ahead. Then the Druid still has all his spells and his animal companion and all the other spells at his disposal. And a level 17 Druid isn't much worse than a level 20 Druid in this regard; the only difference is WBL and +3 BAB.

[Ivanhoe]

Let's remember that the animal companion is a bit random: it peaks at 16 and 18, gaining nothing on 19-20 (next buff is 21 unless you have non-core sources). The companion also has Pounce which makes it way more efficient than the Barbarian on a surprise round or the first round of combat (full attack vs. the Barbarian's single attack, at best a Spirited Charge with a Lance).

The Druid OTOH can do way more. Let's not forget that they probably have Shapechange active and can change form as a free action. That means that among others, they have access to all the following abilities any round: Su Abilities List (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9399.msg151820#msg151820)

Far as their physical prowess goes, they can probably have +11 Strength (+6 enhancement, +5 inherent) and assume the form of e.g. Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm), Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) or Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (or stuff like Dread Wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm#dreadWraith) for completely different angles of attack and the protection of terrain and such). On level 20 with Beads of Karma and Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) is even fair. If they want Pounce there's also Leonal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leonal.htm), Red Slaad (see MM1) or any of the quadropeds. Note that Leonal and Red Slaad can pounce with weapons. Of course, they can charge in a Pouncing form and then switch to e.g. Titan-form. Titan would have 54 (+22) Strength, Gargantuan Weapon Dice and the ability to use items and such.

Of course, Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin and such is still is a thing.

To give you some numbers, Titan Druid (with +11 Str) wielding +5 Greatsword (autosized to Huge as per Polymorph) with Boots of Speed would have 15 + 22 + 5 + 1 - 2 = +41/+41/+36/+31 to hit for 4d6+38 damage. Accounting for DR that makes for 132 damage on average vs. Pit Fiend on a full attack (quick with Power Attack Calculator (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/)). 182 without. You could do more but that's just Shapechange and some strength items. Your Barb averages 128 vs. DR, 183 vs. none on a full attack with optimal Power Attack use. So they're basically even with the Druid pulling a bit ahead. Then the Druid still has all his spells and his animal companion and all the other spells at his disposal. And a level 17 Druid isn't much worse than a level 20 Druid in this regard; the only difference is WBL and +3 BAB.

Not having posted in a while but this intrigues me.
I am not quite sure whether just those numbers would defeat a balor without some serious optimizing and the usual wblmancy. I mean, is there a standard build for a level 20 core druid?
Assuming a scenario where a balor appears in the druid's forest, say 100ft from the druid and his AC. No buffs except the typical hour/level+. What would happen?

[Sian]

Natural Spell
/thread

...

Seriously though, a class having a clear focus on only Wild Shape (... you could probably make a half-decent argument that Totemist, when you get past the fluffy bits does so in a building block fashion) would still be equal or stronger than all of the non-magicals in core, and maybe even also Paladin/Ranger

[A_S]

Not having posted in a while but this intrigues me.
I am not quite sure whether just those numbers would defeat a balor without some serious optimizing and the usual wblmancy. I mean, is there a standard build for a level 20 core druid?
Assuming a scenario where a balor appears in the druid's forest, say 100ft from the druid and his AC. No buffs except the typical hour/level+. What would happen?
I mean, those numbers are quite a bit superior to a Balor's numbers, so if it actually comes down to a slug-fest, the Druid's got it on lockdown.

What I actually think would happen, though, is:

If the Balor wins initiative, and the Druid doesn't have an effective protection up against Implosion, and the Druid fails their save, the Balor wins.
Otherwise, the Druid wins.

[gooddragon1]

I mean, those numbers are quite a bit superior to a Balor's numbers, so if it actually comes down to a slug-fest, the Druid's got it on lockdown.

What I actually think would happen, though, is:

If the Balor wins initiative, and the Druid doesn't have an effective protection up against Implosion, and the Druid fails their save, the Balor wins.
Otherwise, the Druid wins.


And this is why the wizard is like the tf2 sniper and the druid is like the tf2 spy with an ambassador. You don't have to be great to do well with a druid/spy, but a wizard/sniper has a skill ceiling beyond belief. The wizard uses celerity and definitely goes first.

[eggynack]

And this is why the wizard is like the tf2 sniper and the druid is like the tf2 spy with an ambassador. You don't have to be great to do well with a druid/spy, but a wizard/sniper has a skill ceiling beyond belief. The wizard uses celerity and definitely goes first.
Not in core they don't. They could use foresight, but druids have also that. Out of core, wizards do have celerity, but druids have some action manipulation shenanigans worth looking at too, mostly from wild shape. Dire tortoise out of wild shape classic (which you can get access to before 15th with items and such), nilshai if you add aberrations. And, of course, will-o'-wisp is great if you want to go from not having an effective defense against implosions to very much having an effective defense against implosion. Not saying you're wrong in a broader sense. Wizards do, in fact, have a ridiculous ceiling that druids don't really match, especially in the later levels. But they have more tools to deal with stuff than you'd expect.

[gooddragon1]

Not in core they don't. They could use foresight, but druids have also that. Out of core, wizards do have celerity, but druids have some action manipulation shenanigans worth looking at too, mostly from wild shape. Dire tortoise out of wild shape classic (which you can get access to before 15th with items and such), nilshai if you add aberrations. And, of course, will-o'-wisp is great if you want to go from not having an effective defense against implosions to very much having an effective defense against implosion. Not saying you're wrong in a broader sense. Wizards do, in fact, have a ridiculous ceiling that druids don't really match, especially in the later levels. But they have more tools to deal with stuff than you'd expect.

I meant to say out of core, but you're right.

Tangent:
Which is one of the reasons I have never in my entire D&D career played a druid. I played an uncarnate druid and I might refluff some sort of druid thing that has a connection to the plane of shadow (I might already have) and play that, but I'll never play a druid because I just don't like nature.

EDIT: Gonna delete some of that because it gives a vibe that I just don't like. Saying that I don't like nature is enough.

[Goaty14]

I meant to say out of core, but you're right.

Tangent:
Still, these are the sorts of people who wear leaves for clothing, who don't use proper building materials... they sleep on the grass. There's bugs in the grass.[/Not Sarcasm, but jest] Which is one of the reasons I have never in my entire D&D career played a druid. I played an uncarnate druid and I might refluff some sort of druid thing that has a connection to the plane of shadow (I might already have) and play that, but I'll never play a druid because I just don't like nature.

Just because you're a druid doesn't mean you have to be "One with nature". You could spend level 20 Wbl on your mansion and still not break druidic code. You can still wear clothing, just not clothing with metal. Cutting down a tree could break druidic code, but if you take the right steps (i.e replanting another tree) you're still not breaking it.

To avoid becoming an Ex Druid isn't hard.
1.Don't wield/wear metal weapons/armor
2.Revere Nature (Very Vague)
3.Don't teach Druidic to a Non-Druid

[gooddragon1]

Just because you're a druid doesn't mean you have to be "One with nature". You could spend level 20 Wbl on your mansion and still not break druidic code. You can still wear clothing, just not clothing with metal. Cutting down a tree could break druidic code, but if you take the right steps (i.e replanting another tree) you're still not breaking it.

To avoid becoming an Ex Druid isn't hard.
1.Don't wield/wear metal weapons/armor
2.Revere Nature (Very Vague)
3.Don't teach Druidic to a Non-Druid

But I hate nature. Nature has bugs. I hate bugs, therefore I hate nature. And trees are boring. So boring.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A very significant majority of the time you'll be playing most characters will be in the levels prior to 20th. The power of a core only druid is relative to the power of other characters in a core only game, and how each class is able to handle a wide variety of challenges at all levels, not just a single powerful foe at the highest possible level. Most characters don't even reach 20th level, so what a character can do at level 20, or against CR 20 opponents, is almost completely irrelevant.

[gooddragon1]

A very significant majority of the time you'll be playing most characters will be in the levels prior to 20th. The power of a core only druid is relative to the power of other characters in a core only game, and how each class is able to handle a wide variety of challenges at all levels, not just a single powerful foe at the highest possible level. Most characters don't even reach 20th level, so what a character can do at level 20, or against CR 20 opponents, is almost completely irrelevant.

Well, as I see it, the druid has a good chance of contributing 1 to 20, but I just wasn't sure about the later levels so I needed to see some damage numbers and attaccuracy. The greatsword titan indicates they can operate at least on par with barbarian damage even in core. I had a feeling they could do the necessary stuff earlier on.

[TheifofZ]

It helps to simplify, rather than giving tons of examples.

Think of a 20th level Druid as a 20th level cleric/18th level fighter gestalt with a level 18 fighter as a follower just built into the class kit.
That's why druids are BS.

[Gusmo]

Druids are nice because they're a strong option at any level, even without multiclassing. They don't explode in power in later levels on the same level as wizards, but that's generally only relevant to forum TO.

[gooddragon1]

There is one thing I don't quite get though: How do they do at epic?

I guess wildshape could provide infinitely scaling shapeshifting, but that's the purview of the DM to give you things that would provide benefits sufficient for epic scaling.

Moreover, I know 0 DC epic spells are a thing, but the penalties are so high, what could you get out of it? But then again, epic is weird anyways and DM's generally don't go for it.

Reasons I won't play druids:
1-Nature == Bugs, Bugs Hate Value == 1, ∴ Nature Hate Value == 1, ∴ Druid Eligibility != True
2-Prepared spellcasting is a chore.
3-Bookwork for summons
4-I hate nature (and bugs, and nature because it has bugs)

[eggynack]

There is one thing I don't quite get though: How do they do at epic?

I guess wildshape could provide infinitely scaling shapeshifting, but that's the purview of the DM to give you things that would provide benefits sufficient for epic scaling.

Moreover, I know 0 DC epic spells are a thing, but the penalties are so high, what could you get out of it? But then again, epic is weird anyways and DM's generally don't go for it.
With epic spellcasting, they get whatever the other casters are getting with epic casting, which is about as powerful as the game gets outside of TO. Without epic spellcasting, you get shapechange, which means you're about as powerful as a PC can get without epic spellcasting. Druids have problems from like 13 to 16 in the caster comparison. Their 8th's are really bad and their 7th's are just alright, though huge wild shape opens up some cool stuff and siabrie calling is very powerful at level 15. 17 and up though, I don't think there's much call to put them meaningfully worse than any other class out there, and that includes epic levels.

[Eldariel]

Druid can keep almost all day Shapechange up on 18+ (Greater Rod of Extend, 3 castings for 18+ hours). Shapechange can do anything including Etherealness, Astral Projection and others. Thus he has almost all the Wizard tools.

He also has greater scrying and superior observation (Wis SAD + Spot in class + access to all manners of divinations and scouts). A Balor's Implosion would fail: Druid Fort-saves as second to none and he could easily make DC35 and probably has reroll items so under 1% chance of double nat. 1. Add to that Shapechange forms being inside walls, invulnerable or whatever and the Balor doesn't have much of a chance.

[stanprollyright]

Druids are the most powerful base class because they are essentially 2.5 classes. A full 9th level caster with a solid medium chassis, plus wildshape makes you better than martials at fighting and all the utility you can imagine from shapeshifting, plus you have your animal companion as your mini-Fighter buddy on top of all that.

[Jormengand]

I'm glad to see this thread has progressed into a discussion of whether or not evil outsiders can melt steel druids.

A steel druid would probably lose all their class features, though, so perhaps "Yes".

[gooddragon1]

Well, it's sort of a proof for the third commandment of practical optimization, but that doesn't mean fun can't be had.

[Florian]

The Druid is "powerful" because it combines 9th level casting with two of the worst designed class features in the game and tries to balance that with drawbacks, while handing out easy means to circumvent those drawbacks in the same book.

Let´s face it: Animal Companion and Wild Shape could be the poster children for horrible design errors. PHB only, the Druid doesn´t even function because you need to reference the Monster Manual to get the relevant rules, and monsters in turn are not designed around the same principles of player characters, but rather to use the CR system and be a challenge for a party of four. Having easy access to Natural Spell even makes this worse.

[Eldariel]

There are also control winds and giant vermin as ridiculous high CL spells. E.g. Colossal Scorpion uses Balors as toothpicks physically, though it can teleport away.

[gooddragon1]

The Druid is "powerful" because it combines 9th level casting with two of the worst designed class features in the game and tries to balance that with drawbacks, while handing out easy means to circumvent those drawbacks in the same book.

Let´s face it: Animal Companion and Wild Shape could be the poster children for horrible design errors. PHB only, the Druid doesn´t even function because you need to reference the Monster Manual to get the relevant rules, and monsters in turn are not designed around the same principles of player characters, but rather to use the CR system and be a challenge for a party of four. Having easy access to Natural Spell even makes this worse.

Yes, but it can't specialize it's spellcasting and it doesn't get a familiar.
Also, at least for animals, their HD is usually high compared to their CR and Wildshape is limited by HD.

Though they are busted for probably the same reason survival venge mtg decks are busted. They can counter, aggro, and combo easily:


Survival decks created Aggro/Control/Combo decks; literally good at all three. This card is one of the few that's broken Legacy in spite of free counterspells, in spite of mega-fast combo decks; nothing could match it's consistency, power, and speed at the same time.

You were going to combo? Mental Misstep or Force took care of it. They could counter your counters. They could tutor up solutions to their problems. They could combo into vengevines easily (requiring any two castable creatures, which they could tutor with this single card over the course of 4-5 mana allowing 2-3 hasty vengevines on top of their other critters)

Can't be stopped by counterspells and stifle is only card parity.

Amazing card. I hope it's never unbanned.
From here:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=6150

Druids are good at mundane fighting, magical fighting, and support. The only thing they can't do in core is disarm traps (which there's probably something they have out of core somewhere). Often times as shown above they're even better at mundane fighting than classes that specialize at that thing. Though, if it's any consolation, I guess in a TO environment the wizard has an edge until pun-pun availability comes along.

[Zakerst]

For the trap problem a wand of summon nature's ally should alert you to many common traps to bypass them even if you can't strictly disarm them.

[Florian]

For the trap problem a wand of summon nature's ally should alert you to many common traps to bypass them even if you can't strictly disarm them.

Not really.

[Zancloufer]

Not really.

Yes really. Looking through the SRD pretty much all traps have a proximity or location trigger which a summon can easily set off. Also at least half of the core traps have a no-reset or manual/repair reset.

So a summoned animal could trigger almost any core trap and would effectively cancel out at least half of them.

[Eldariel]

Yes, but it can't specialize it's spellcasting and it doesn't get a familiar.
Also, at least for animals, their HD is usually high compared to their CR and Wildshape is limited by HD.

Though they are busted for probably the same reason survival venge mtg decks are busted. They can counter, aggro, and combo easily:

It's an apt comparison. It's not just good at it all though, it's also potentially better than the dedicated classes and just gets too much for free. Definitely second to Wizard on very high levels, but has the best mass destruction magic (weather), the best spontaneous spells (summons are superversatile and e.g. SNAIV has a lot of utility and even SNAIX is has Irresistible Dance).

Shapechange makes up for a lot of what they lack superhigh up and all the way there Druids are good warriors and casters with a bonus expendable warrior (expendable is superkey - resurrection is superexpensive compared to calling a new AC).

[lord_khaine]

A very significant majority of the time you'll be playing most characters will be in the levels prior to 20th. The power of a core only druid is relative to the power of other characters in a core only game, and how each class is able to handle a wide variety of challenges at all levels, not just a single powerful foe at the highest possible level. Most characters don't even reach 20th level, so what a character can do at level 20, or against CR 20 opponents, is almost completely irrelevant.

I do think this is an extremely relevant point. In the same way that people dont think about the access to gate from a truenamer, then i dont think Shapechange is to relevant for the overall power of the druid class.
And when discussing the power of a class in general then i do think a much lower level range should be considered.


Yes really. Looking through the SRD pretty much all traps have a proximity or location trigger which a summon can easily set off. Also at least half of the core traps have a no-reset or manual/repair reset.

So a summoned animal could trigger almost any core trap and would effectively cancel out at least half of them.

No really. That initially kinda assumes that traps are going to be picked randomly. Or for that matter picked from a list instead of placed by a GM.
And even putting that little detail aside, then it still also hard to check more than a single room with each summoning.

[gooddragon1]

summons are superversatile and e.g. SNAIV has a lot of utility and even SNAIX is has Irresistible Dance

But it doesn't have any snakes. You have to go all the way to SNAV to get snakes (admittedly through SNAIX which gives multiple as a bonus) because SNAIX doesn't have any.

[Ivanhoe]

I mean, those numbers are quite a bit superior to a Balor's numbers, so if it actually comes down to a slug-fest, the Druid's got it on lockdown.

What I actually think would happen, though, is:

If the Balor wins initiative, and the Druid doesn't have an effective protection up against Implosion, and the Druid fails their save, the Balor wins.
Otherwise, the Druid wins.


Well, others have already pointed out the high fortitude save of the druid, so even if the balor goes first, he will not win with an implosion attack.
Just noticed that the OP was talking about a pit fiend. Is the outcome of a combat the same in that case?
And how exactly will a druid be able to win when going first vs either balor or pit fiend that appear in his forest? I see a lot of spells, ac numbers and shapechange forms suggestions, but no real detailed way to defeat such foes.

[Ivanhoe]

If the Pit Fiend truly acted like it had Int 26 and Knowledge (the planes) +29, it would've ascended into infinity the moment it gained access to its first Wish. Figuring out how to bypass AC 40 would be the least of that Druid's worries.

True. I forgot about the wish ability.
Also, both Balor and Pit Fiend have at will teleport and ways to continually attack the druid from long range and summon support that stays longer than the druid summons.

Somehow I do not see the druid winning easily in such a core setting.

[eggynack]

I do think this is an extremely relevant point. In the same way that people dont think about the access to gate from a truenamer, then i dont think Shapechange is to relevant for the overall power of the druid class.
And when discussing the power of a class in general then i do think a much lower level range should be considered.
True, though if we are hanging out in pit fiend and balor territory, then it seems only fair to allow these things. It's not what makes a druid great on a universal level, but it very much is what makes a druid great at level 17 and up (in core specifically, because there're a few other tools in other sources, though not a ton). And, given access to shapechange, the comparison is probably druid favored, at least somewhat. Wish is really great, enough to render the pit fiend unbeatable if it's used to its fullest, but if it's applied reasonably then shapechange, even core shapechange, seems sufficient. Biggest issue might be that greater teleport makes it difficult to force a confrontation.

[Eldariel]

True, though if we are hanging out in pit fiend and balor territory, then it seems only fair to allow these things. It's not what makes a druid great on a universal level, but it very much is what makes a druid great at level 17 and up (in core specifically, because there're a few other tools in other sources, though not a ton). And, given access to shapechange, the comparison is probably druid favored, at least somewhat. Wish is really great, enough to render the pit fiend unbeatable if it's used to its fullest, but if it's applied reasonably then shapechange, even core shapechange, seems sufficient. Biggest issue might be that greater teleport makes it difficult to force a confrontation.

Archons give Shapechange the Greater Teleport-ability of general outsiders but yes, finding the location of the Pit Fiend and chasing after them isn't that easily done without Time Stop. Druid does have the Greater Scrying > Greater Teleport array at least, so they have some chance. But yeah, when speaking high levels, Shapechange is to be assumed. Of course, on lower levels Druids fare fine without it; though they dip a bit compared to other casters around perhaps 11-16, before Shapechange while the extra Fighter loses significance and their bigger spells take precedence.