Any benefits to increased CL after 20?

[Hiro Quester]

Is there much benefit to increasing Caster Level temporarily (e.g. Divine Spell Power feat, or Bead of Karma), after 20th level?

I'm playing a druid 20 (CL 21) taking a cleric dip at level 21, for Animal Devotion and an extra domain, plus 1st level cleric spells and access to cleric wands.

DM is not sure about my taking Epic Spellcasting feat, so I'm looking for alternatives. Considering putting those turn undead attempts to good use in taking Divine Spellpower feat.

But now I'm wondering how much use it is. With 18 CHA I'd get 7 uses, with +7 on the turning check, for between -1 and +4 on CL.

At lower levels this would have been awesome. But after 20? Most damaging spells are capped at 20. Increasing CL can minority increase the duration or range of spells, but lasting 21 rounds (or hours) vs, 24 rounds (or hours) doesn't make that much difference.

On what kinds of spells would adding a few caster levels be useful?

[gooddragon1]

Is there much benefit to increasing Caster Level temporarily (e.g. Divine Spell Power feat, or Bead of Karma), after 20th level?

I'm playing a druid 20 (CL 21) taking a cleric dip at level 21, for Animal Devotion and an extra domain, plus 1st level cleric spells and access to cleric wands.

DM is not sure about my taking Epic Spellcasting feat, so I'm looking for alternatives. Considering putting those turn undead attempts to good use in taking Divine Spellpower feat.

But now I'm wondering how much use it is. With 18 CHA I'd get 7 uses, with +7 on the turning check, for between -1 and +4 on CL.

At lower levels this would have been awesome. But after 20? Most damaging spells are capped at 20. Increasing CL can minority increase the duration or range of spells, but lasting 21 rounds (or hours) vs, 24 rounds (or hours) doesn't make that much difference.

On what kinds of spells would adding a few caster levels be useful?

Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm).

[Hiro Quester]

Ordinarily, that is an excellent answer. Increasing the HD of creatures whose form you can take.

But in my case, DM has banned shapechange (I'm already OP :smallannoyed:).

I was already too hard to challenge in Wildshape, so DM (well... my God) offered me a good deal to increase other druidic abilities in exchange for limiting Wildshape to 2/day for 10 minutes per use.

[gooddragon1]

Ordinarily, that is an excellent answer. Increasing the HD of creatures whose form you can take.

But in my case, DM has banned shapechange (I'm already OP :smallannoyed:).

I was already too hard to challenge in Wildshape, so DM (well... my God) offered me a good deal to increase other druidic abilities in exchange for limiting Wildshape to 2/day for 10 minutes per use.

Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) scales infinitely, allows no SR, and if you use something like searing spell feat or energy substitution feat you can make them difficult or impossible to resist in terms of damage. Not as much of a benefit as shapechange though. To be fair, I don't know too much about druids.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, but it only scales at +1 per caster level. 8 holly bombs are 8d8+8*CL damage, whereas an acorn grenade deals 20d6 (at CL 20). So that's 70 as compared to... Actually, 196. Damn, those holly bombs ain't bad, never mind!

[Zanos]

Reserves of Strengths allows you to uncap spells.

Increasing your caster level will always continue to improve durations and the DC to dispel them.

There are some spells that don't have a cap, but they're case by case.

[gooddragon1]

Yeah, but it only scales at +1 per caster level. 8 holly bombs are 8d8+8*CL damage, whereas an acorn grenade deals 20d6 (at CL 20). So that's 70 as compared to... Actually, 196. Damn, those holly bombs ain't bad, never mind!

You forgot to empower them. It's a little more than that.

[JNAProductions]

You forgot to empower them. It's a little more than that.

True. Empowered Acorn Grenades deal deal 105, whereas Empowered Holly Bombs deal merely 214. A much smaller increase, but still more than double.

[gooddragon1]

True. Empowered Acorn Grenades deal deal 105, whereas Empowered Holly Bombs deal merely 214. A much smaller increase, but still more than double.

Actually

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=3145744&postcount=2

The PHB example provides the best RAW interpretation: That empower applies to the whole effect, including any linear bonus.

Personally though, I prefer that it only applies to dice, because otherwise those spells combining dice with linear bonuses (like +1 per caster level) in their effects get out of hand. Like your false life example shows.

So it's a bit more like:
260 damage

[Hiro Quester]

Fire seeds is a good point. I prepare them a lot. I cast energy immunity (fire) and cary the group of holly berry bombs in a bag around my neck. Then when I'm in melee combat I can speak the command word and explode myself at them for usually 200+ damage. Making the damage closer to average 250 isn't bad.

I don't use empower spell. Our blaster sorcerer/incantatrix usually does that.

I do however, cast a lot of self-buffs. Making them even harder to dispel is a significant benefit. I already use a bead of Karma when casting my morning buffs for that reason. The benefit of the Divine Spellpower would stack with that.

[gooddragon1]

Fire seeds is a good point. I prepare them a lot. I cast energy immunity (fire) and cary the group of holly berry bombs in a bag around my neck. Then when I'm in melee combat I can speak the command word and explode myself at them for usually 200+ damage. Making the damage closer to average 250 isn't bad.

I don't use empower spell. Our blaster sorcerer/incantatrix usually does that.

I do however, cast a lot of self-buffs. Making them even harder to dispel is a significant benefit. I already use a bead of Karma when casting my morning buffs for that reason. The benefit of the Divine Spellpower would stack with that.

Your group has a mailman and you're not allowed shapechange?

[Psyren]

Gate has no cap either.

One of the bigger benefits is durations, particularly for those 10 min./level spells, getting them to last all day once extended. Or hours/level spells lasting multiple days at a time, effectively doubling your spell slots.

Wish and Miracle, among their safe uses, have a couple of effects that depend on caster level.

[Khedrac]

If you are up against something (or somethings) that can spam dispel magic then at caster level 19 you are at risk of a natural 20 costing you spell(s) [1d20 + 10 against a target of 11+19=30].
However, there are abilities that can boost the dispel magic check and they can spam greater dispel magic, thus getting your caster level over 20 (or better, over 30) can really help prevent something stripping your buffs at an inopportune moment.

[Hiro Quester]

Your group has a mailman and you're not allowed shapechange?

The mailman is not completely optimized, though. He is playing a Dwarf, a race with a CHA penalty, for example.

[Hiro Quester]

getting your caster level over 20 (or better, over 30) can really help prevent something stripping your buffs at an inopportune moment.

Yes, I'm thinking seriously about using it to pump up CL on all day buffs. I already use bead of Karma to +4 my CL. Adding this would make them close-to-undispellable. If I make a good roll on the Turn check, for +4 to CL, then the dispel check would have to beat 11+21+4+4=40 vs. a d20 +CL roll.

Of course if they have enhancements to their CL or dispel check, then it's more vulnerable.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Owl's insight is uncapped. To a druid, that should make CL buffs about as tasty as trees.

[Hiro Quester]

Yes, it would.... If the DM allowed this spell.

Increasing my casting stat by 10 or more would be brokenly unbalanced (in terms of fun for all the party).

It makes a druid's excellent SoL spells practically impossible for our enemies to save against. Or if their saves are pumped up to be a challenge for me, then the other casters incur party would not be able to get anything through.

Plus my AC is already through the roof (Monk's wisdom AC bonus). Adding 1/2 my CL on top of that would make it impossible for me to be hit. Or if enemies could hit me, they would massacre others in the party.