Divine Soul Mindborn - does combining them make a decent class?

[noce]

DISCLAIMER: I'm talking about regular, non-gestalt game.

Let's say I create a new base class, combining every class feature of both Divine Mind and Soulborn.
So I get Soulborn bonus feats, essentia, smite opposition, etc and I also get Divine Mind auras, powers, divine grace, etc.
At each level I get class features from both classes.

Lastly, class skill list includes both class lists, and chassis is the best of both classes (d10, 2+int, full bab, high fort, low ref, high will).

For simplicity, let's say you cannot multiclass out of this class and must continue untill lvl 20, ending up with 62 base power points, 9 powers known, 10 essentia, etc.

Is it a decent base class? How does it compare with Psychic Warrior 1-20 or with Paladin 1-20?
I ask for those two classes because they are the most similar base classes, but I'm interested in your opinion about other classes and prestige classes, too.

[Psyren]

There's a lot of synergy between psionics and incarnum so I'd say this class would end up pretty decent. Depending on the mantles and melds you would easily end up stronger than a Barbarian, and useful in more scenarios.

[The Viscount]

That would make for a pretty decent class provided you choose the right mantles. If the Divine Mind ACFs are on the table then you're entering good territory. People give Divine Mind a lot of flak, but it can get metamorphosis, and that accounts for a lot. The largest problem remaining is MADness, since you need high scores in Con, Wis, and Cha as well as Str.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It winds up being doubly late-blooming, with both meldshaping and psionics only becoming useful at higher levels.

[Sagetim]

It winds up being doubly late-blooming, with both meldshaping and psionics only becoming useful at higher levels.

I'm not sure about the meldshaping part of it, but one of the reasons the divine mind is crap is because of how slow it is to get any good at what it's supposedly doing. From what I remember of people's comments about the Soulborn, it's a slow burner of a class, so one of the problems you're facing here is that you're putting two slow burns together and hoping it comes out better, without necessarily addressing the problems the two classes have separately.

Now, one of the things in this combo's favor is that full BAB. Having played a character with a base class and two prestige classes all with a 3/4th bab, having a full bab would have been really really nice. In fact, the total lack of a full bab for the divine mind is why I have never played one, or tried to play one.

Also in it's favor is meldshaping (I think? Again, not super familiar with incarnum). The Divine Mind has a paladin-like amount of manifesting, it gets something like 62 power points per day...at level 20. I suppose there's 2 more from Wild Talent, but 64 is not a lot of power points when using a single 6th level power is going to cost you at least 11 power points. So, if nothing else, meldshaping would let you stretch those points by giving you other options that you can bring to the table for buffing, offense, defense, whatever. I don't know if the crunch will work out, but there's some hope there.

But the aura's are still going to be too little, too late, too short range. Now, if they're just something you want to treat as a little extra, and not as a core class feature, then leaving them as is would be fine. But if you want the aura to be something noticeable and useful and a central class feature that the character and the party are relying on regularly to get things done, you might need to kick it's numbers up a notch. Such as by starting with a 20ft aura. You know, so that you don't have to be literally neck and neck with your allies to have them benefit from the aura. So that you can actually flank a large creature and still have them within range as you work like a a team to take it down.

I'm not sure how much you might want, or need to adjust the numbers on the actual benefits to have them matter, so I'll leave that to someone else to suggest. As a rule of thumb, you could just look at the numbers that the aura would have at level 7 (where it normally, Finally, hits 20ft range) and see if those would be an appropriate area for it to start with.

[Zombulian]

If you're working with all the Mind's Eye ACF's, picking up Divine Soultouch and Psycarnum Infusion as well as swinging for Open Chakra: Brow for the Necrocarnum Circlet would make you a weirdly potent melee minionmancer. You'd have Necrocarnum Zombies as well as your Astral Construct (which you can buff with your auras), you'd have turning to give you a little more Incarnum and capacity, and you could use your Psionic Focus to power up one of your offline melds or feats.
Unfortunately Midnight Augmentation is kinda terrible when paired with Divine Mind manifesting... so that's a missed chance.
It'd be weird, but it'd work I think.

[Lans]

Is better than barbarian. Sans acfs gets +1 to hit and damage all day and can go to +3 at level 5. Barbarian gets better skills and 1 hp level

[noce]

The Divine Mind has a paladin-like amount of manifesting, it gets something like 62 power points per day...at level 20. I suppose there's 2 more from Wild Talent, but 64 is not a lot of power points when using a single 6th level power is going to cost you at least 11 power points.

I agree with everything else, but please note that you get bonus power points from high Wisdom.
With a ML 16 at level 20, and starting with 14 Wis, you easily get another 40 power points.
Yeah...it's not much more, but almost doubles your power point pool.

[Psyren]

At level 1 you're on par with a Barb and slightly better off than a Fighter thanks to your Attack aura. You can also provide a small amount of out-of-combat utility with a mantle like Fate, which is a decent mantle for you in its own right anyway. You have a small amount of Cha synergy due to Smite Opposition and later Divine Grace, but that does have the side effect of making you MAD - moreso than a paladin even, since you need to get 16 Wis to use all your powers eventually rather than 14.

If you can swap your Wild Talent for Hidden Talent you'll be much better off, as you'll get a level 1 power and 2 PP to manifest it with right from the start. You need 11 Cha, but as mentioned above you have reasons to want a positive Cha score anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's not a bad combination, but not so powerful that you can't get away with adding 10' to the Divine Mind's aura ranges. That starting range of 5' is just silly. Maybe a few more skill points, too--it's a relatively MAD combination with no use for intelligence, so it's going to be skill point-starved.

[Sagetim]

I agree with everything else, but please note that you get bonus power points from high Wisdom.
With a ML 16 at level 20, and starting with 14 Wis, you easily get another 40 power points.
Yeah...it's not much more, but almost doubles your power point pool.

Oh, yeah, but as you mentioned, their base is so low that their bonus per day basically doubles their reserves. Oh, would practiced manifester help? I just read it from the book and realized that it doesn't mention power points. Even if it doesn't affect your base power points per day (which are tied to class level progression anyway), with an increased manifester level, would you not get more power points per day from your manifesting stat?

I think the class would be safe to be bumped up to 4 + int mod skill points per level, if only because 2 + int mod is a terrible place to be. It doesn't accurately reflect how skilled real life people who would have been statted with fighter levels were (such as roman legionnaires*). And on a crunch level, it doesn't give the character the tools necessary to do anything other than combat, which they don't do so amazingly that it should be the only thing they Can do from some kind of balance** perspective.



*unless you want to make every single one of them like, 14 or 16 int or something.
**that balance perspective generally being in favor of wizards, given how 3.5 was written.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Noticing the second part of the OP: I think the combined class will trump Paladin at all levels, no questions asked. At very low levels and very high levels it might have an edge over PsyWar, but I think in general it'll get shown up there, too.


I think the class would be safe to be bumped up to 4 + int mod skill points per level, if only because 2 + int mod is a terrible place to be. It doesn't accurately reflect how skilled real life people who would have been statted with fighter levels were (such as roman legionnaires*). And on a crunch level, it doesn't give the character the tools necessary to do anything other than combat, which they don't do so amazingly that it should be the only thing they Can do from some kind of balance** perspective.
Let's be honest; both classes could safely use a lot of bumping. (Also yes, 4+Int is a much better skill point count). The Soulborn at least has a clear purpose behind it, and an easy fix that doesn't tread on anyone else's toes; the Divine Mind, meanwhile, has the Ardent sitting on one side doing the armored-mantle-based-manifesting-possible-gish thing much better, and the PsyWar on the other doing the armored-psionic-gish (with potential mantle access) thing much better.

[animewatcha]

What about doing marshal into the mix with these two?

[Grod_The_Giant]

What about doing marshal into the mix with these two?
Marshal//Soulborn might be okay-- Marshal is probably strongest at low levels, while Soulborn perks up at high. Marshal//Divine Mind is a more awkward mix, I think; it's MAD, it doesn't offer much of a chassis upgrade, and the Divine Mind aura scales too slowly to mesh well with the Marshal's.

[animewatcha]

i mean the three classes in one.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If you merge the aura features it seems alright. Too complex otherwise with three different aura types.

How does the PF Paladin stack up against this hybrid?

[Grod_The_Giant]

i mean the three classes in one.
Eh. You're hitting a point of diminishing returns, is the thing. The Marshal might add a few incremental advantages to the picture (4+Int skill points, for instance), but it reinforces your MADness (because the only good thing it gets requires you to pump Cha) and just adds more largely-redundant minor party boosts that have to be tracked separately. It's more trouble than it's worth, and it doesn't do much for the early-game weaknesses.