Changing the role of the Paladin

[tedcahill2]

I want to refluff Paladin into a Dragon age-esque Templar. Instead of fighting evil, they are tasked with hunting rogue mages, and generally keeping magic in check.

Anyone know of a class like this, homebrew or otherwise?

[Karl Aegis]

I would say the Paladin is a pretty good fit for this idea. Maybe the Athasian Templar class from 2nd Edition.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Suel Arcanamech isn't a bad starting point, though it's a PrC.

[fire_insideout]

The Justiciar from Project Heretica (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling/page2) (post 2 on page 2, it references abilities of the Paladin on page 1) fits decently into the templar role IMO.

[Telonius]

Witchborn Binder in Magic of Incarnum has the fluff of just this. Unfortunately the mechanics are pretty horrible.

[Fouredged Sword]

Smite evil becomes smite arcane. Detect evil becomes detect magic. They already have great saves. Throw in the mage slayer line of feats and you are looking at a pretty convincing mage killer.

[lord_khaine]

Smite evil becomes smite arcane. Detect evil becomes detect magic. They already have great saves. Throw in the mage slayer line of feats and you are looking at a pretty convincing mage killer.

Not really, there are still to many things they cant really deal with on their own.
Make Smite Arcane dispel magic on hit. And give them access to ranged smite though a feat. Then you might be a bit closer to at least a slight believeable Mage Hunter.

[Keltest]

Smite evil becomes smite arcane. Detect evil becomes detect magic. They already have great saves. Throw in the mage slayer line of feats and you are looking at a pretty convincing mage killer.

And Turn Undead can be replaced with some sort of Dispel Magic ability.

[Fouredged Sword]

And Turn Undead can be replaced with some sort of Dispel Magic ability.

Yeah, self centered dispel based on a turning check to suppress any magic with CL lower than their paladin level.

Here is the thing though, you are never going to have a paladin be more than an irritant who can do better than another non-magical class at making itself a pain to a well run wizard. Not without moving WAY past what could be considered a paladin ACF. I did a thing with mage slayer and swordsage to make a teleporting pain the the but backstabbing assassin, but even that fell off almost as soon as it finished the mageslayer line.

Here are the class features we have to play with

1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day — — — —
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, lay on hands — — — —
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, divine health — — — —
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead 0 — — —
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil 2/day, special mount 0 — — —
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease 1/week

After that it just turns into more uses of various things.

So, Aura of good, not sure what to do with this. I want to do something anti-divination, but I am not sure what would fit well.
Detect evil = Detect magic
Smite evil = Smite arcane, perhaps dispels magic on hit instead of bonus damage
Divine grace = no change
Lay on hands = We can do something with this. Healing doesn't really fit.
Aura of Courage = Immunity to charm and compulsion rater than fear.
Divine health = No need to change
Turn Undead = Banish magic, as turn undead except targets magic with CL=HD but the same mechanics. Rather than fear or destruction you have suppression and removing permanently.
Special mount = Can stay the same
Remove disease = break enchantment.

[Grod_The_Giant]

EDIT: Expanding on my previous idea, a quick sketch of the Suel Arcanamach as a base class:


Full BAB, good Will and Fort saves
4+Int skill points off their original list.
Weapon and armor proficiencies, and armored casting, as the Duskblade
Duskblade progression for spells/day and spells known, drawing from the Wizard Abjurations, Divinations, Illusions and Transmutations. Dispel Magic is a 2nd level spell, and Greater Dispel Magic at 4th, and both are learned at the earliest opportunity without counting against their spells known. You might throw on some teleport stuff too.
At 1st level, when you connect with a melee or ranged attack, you can expend a spell slot to make a targeted Dispel attempt, with a dispel roll of d20+class level+spell level. Alternately, you can make the attempt as a ranged touch as a standard action. If you hit a target currently casting a spell with an AoO, this ability can serve as a counterspell instead.
Arcane Resistance (Cha to saves against spells) at 2nd
At 3rd level, gain Mage Slayer as a bonus feat.
At 5th level, they can counterspell as an immediate action 1/hour. This increases to 2/hour at 10th and 3/hour at 15th.
At 6th level, gain +1/2 class level to Dispel checks (including their Dispelling Strike), to overcome SR, and to the DC to dispel thier spells.
At 11th level, they gain Improved Familiar and Obtain Familiar, if they didn't already have it as bonus feats.
At 13th level, double the duration of any spell they cast on themselves.


Should be pretty similar to what you want-- an armored warrior with a touch of magic who can put the hurt on spellcasters.

[Fouredged Sword]

EDIT: Expanding on my previous idea, a quick sketch of the Suel Arcanamach as a base class:


Full BAB, good Will and Fort saves
4+Int skill points off their original list.
Weapon and armor proficiencies, and armored casting, as the Duskblade
Duskblade progression for spells/day and spells known, drawing from the Wizard Abjurations, Divinations, Illusions and Transmutations. Dispel Magic is a 2nd level spell, and Greater Dispel Magic at 4th, and both are learned at the earliest opportunity without counting against their spells known. You might throw on some teleport stuff too.
At 1st level, when you connect with a melee or ranged attack, you can expend a spell slot to make a targeted Dispel attempt, with a dispel roll of d20+class level+spell level. Alternately, you can make the attempt as a ranged touch as a standard action. If you hit a target currently casting a spell with an AoO, this ability can serve as a counterspell instead.
Arcane Resistance (Cha to saves against spells) at 2nd
At 3rd level, gain Mage Slayer as a bonus feat.
At 5th level, they can counterspell as an immediate action 1/hour. This increases to 2/hour at 10th and 3/hour at 15th.
At 6th level, gain +1/2 class level to Dispel checks (including their Dispelling Strike), to overcome SR, and to the DC to dispel thier spells.
At 11th level, they gain Improved Familiar and Obtain Familiar, if they didn't already have it as bonus feats.
At 13th level, double the duration of any spell they cast on themselves.


Should be pretty similar to what you want-- an armored warrior with a touch of magic who can put the hurt on spellcasters.

I would throw in a self exemption to the CL hit from mage slayer when they get it.

[lylsyly]

Lay on hands = We can do something with this. Healing doesn't really fit.


How about Identify magic ala the Invocation that warlocks/dfas get.

just a thought.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I would throw in a self exemption to the CL hit from mage slayer when they get it.
Missed that. Good call.

... I might get inspired to turn this into a full fixed list caster project entry. We'll see.

[Goaty14]

Occult Slayer PrC is a good magic-killing class, even gets perm. mind blank at level 5 (capstone), which cancels illusions, enchantments, and some divinations.

[tedcahill2]

EDIT: Expanding on my previous idea, a quick sketch of the Suel Arcanamach as a base class:


Full BAB, good Will and Fort saves
4+Int skill points off their original list.
Weapon and armor proficiencies, and armored casting, as the Duskblade
Duskblade progression for spells/day and spells known, drawing from the Wizard Abjurations, Divinations, Illusions and Transmutations. Dispel Magic is a 2nd level spell, and Greater Dispel Magic at 4th, and both are learned at the earliest opportunity without counting against their spells known. You might throw on some teleport stuff too.
At 1st level, when you connect with a melee or ranged attack, you can expend a spell slot to make a targeted Dispel attempt, with a dispel roll of d20+class level+spell level. Alternately, you can make the attempt as a ranged touch as a standard action. If you hit a target currently casting a spell with an AoO, this ability can serve as a counterspell instead.
Arcane Resistance (Cha to saves against spells) at 2nd
At 3rd level, gain Mage Slayer as a bonus feat.
At 5th level, they can counterspell as an immediate action 1/hour. This increases to 2/hour at 10th and 3/hour at 15th.
At 6th level, gain +1/2 class level to Dispel checks (including their Dispelling Strike), to overcome SR, and to the DC to dispel thier spells.
At 11th level, they gain Improved Familiar and Obtain Familiar, if they didn't already have it as bonus feats.
At 13th level, double the duration of any spell they cast on themselves.


Should be pretty similar to what you want-- an armored warrior with a touch of magic who can put the hurt on spellcasters.

In general I would say this is cool. But for my concept to work it would need to be none magical. Templar's in Dragon Age are by definition unable to use magic. In that that world magic users have a chance of being possessed by demons, and templars keep mages in check is a means to keep demons in check, and to prevent mages from taking over the world.

[King of Nowhere]

it depends a lot on the level of optimization you're using. if you have batman wizards, then none of those tricky antimage skills are going to do much but be a mild annoyance for the wizard. if you have inexperienced players, then mages willl fall apart in front of those templars.

[gorfnab]

Pathfinder has the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter/) base class which has some useful abilities.

The Cold Iron Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20040507a) prestige class from the WOTC web archives has some interesting options as well.

I came up with this anti-caster type build a while ago. It may have some things that could help your class building.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF (CM)
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF (CC), Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA), {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.