When should a Bard multiclass to Warlock?

[ZorroGames]

Assume 2 levels of MC to get Archfey Expanded Spells, good old Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Invocations...

After the ASI at 4th for the Bard? Earlier? Later?

The idea is to give my future College of Lore Bard some ranged damage along with his skill sets.

I read PeteNutButter's MC guide and it did not indicate when might be best for a Bard that was not planning on getting the Bard Capstone...

[Chunkosaurus]

I would take 5 levels of Bard minimum to get font of inspiration and 3rd level spells like hypnotic pattern. If you can wait until 6 even better as magical secrets are so so so good

[Dudu]

I got the 2 warlock levels as quick as possible in one of my builds for good at will damage. But I wasn't a Lore Bard. Lore Bard might want to grab Magical Secrets.

You might consider it after lvl 5 or 6 since one of Warlock's strongest point, eldritch blast, will come already boosted.

[agnos]

It really depends on party composition. But as a general rule of thumb, Lore Bard don't want to MC into Warlock until they hit level 7. This is because of a few different things. First, Bard 5 gives Font of Inspiration is often a pretty major party buff (slightly less so in AL play, but still significant), D8 inspiration dice, and Hypnotic Pattern which is your best AoE control spell. Second, Bard 6 gives you Magical Secrets for any two 3rd or lower level spells in the game; often I find it's Aura of Vitality + preference. Third, Bard 7 gives you Polymorph which is the best healing spell in the game. Warlock 1 gives you very little outside of Eldritch Blast; Warlock 2 gives you little past a much better Eldritch Blast. In comparison, a Cleric 1 dip gives you armor, increased spell casting, more spells known (including Bless, Cure Wounds, and Healing Word) so you can use your Bard spells known slots on the best bard slots, increased armor proficiency (heavy or medium and shields), and a domain ability. Cleric 1 is great to dip at almost any point in Bard builds because the benefits it gives gives you sustainability (hard to hit) and versatility (get better choice from Bard spells instead of "needing" to take Cure Wounds and/or Healing Word) while it only costs a minor decrease in your power spikes ( as it delays learning higher level spells and hitting class features by 1 level). Warlock 2 is a much longer delay in power spikes for more focused (offensive) strengths. While Warlock offers 1-2 renewable spell slots, it means you hit your benchmark spells and abilities two levels behind everyone else; it's hard because you're often significantly lower in power and you get the "feels bad man" when you see people casting Fireball when you're still stuck on Blindness.

That said... If your party is mostly melee with little to no ranged DPS, then an earlier dip into Warlock 2 makes sense as your 4th and 5th levels. At level 5 (bard 3/warlock 2), you get two 1d10+cha attacks that you can also add hex damage consistently. Additionally if you're planning on being a grappling-focused bard (or have a party member who's heavily invested in grappling), grabbing warlock for your 4th and 5th levels isn't bad because you can use hex to give the opponent disadvantage to strength ability checks to be able to consistently force the opponent to lose grapples.

The big thing to remember when building and playing a bard is that you are the party's enabler. On par, your character will be 50-80% as powerful as everyone else in the party; however, you make everyone else 50-100% stronger. It's a lot like classic support play in LoL. You take a hit so the rest of the team can be massively more powerful.

[ZorroGames]

It really depends on party composition. But as a general rule of thumb, Lore Bard don't want to MC into Warlock until they hit level 7. This is because of a few different things. First, Bard 5 gives Font of Inspiration is often a pretty major party buff (slightly less so in AL play, but still significant), D8 inspiration dice, and Hypnotic Pattern which is your best AoE control spell. Second, Bard 6 gives you Magical Secrets for any two 3rd or lower level spells in the game; often I find it's Aura of Vitality + preference. Third, Bard 7 gives you Polymorph which is the best healing spell in the game. Warlock 1 gives you very little outside of Eldritch Blast; Warlock 2 gives you little past a much better Eldritch Blast. In comparison, a Cleric 1 dip gives you armor, increased spell casting, more spells known (including Bless, Cure Wounds, and Healing Word) so you can use your Bard spells known slots on the best bard slots, increased armor proficiency (heavy or medium and shields), and a domain ability. Cleric 1 is great to dip at almost any point in Bard builds because the benefits it gives gives you sustainability (hard to hit) and versatility (get better choice from Bard spells instead of "needing" to take Cure Wounds and/or Healing Word) while it only costs a minor decrease in your power spikes ( as it delays learning higher level spells and hitting class features by 1 level). Warlock 2 is a much longer delay in power spikes for more focused (offensive) strengths. While Warlock offers 1-2 renewable spell slots, it means you hit your benchmark spells and abilities two levels behind everyone else; it's hard because you're often significantly lower in power and you get the "feels bad man" when you see people casting Fireball when you're still stuck on Blindness.

That said... If your party is mostly melee with little to no ranged DPS, then an earlier dip into Warlock 2 makes sense as your 4th and 5th levels. At level 5 (bard 3/warlock 2), you get two 1d10+cha attacks that you can also add hex damage consistently. Additionally if you're planning on being a grappling-focused bard (or have a party member who's heavily invested in grappling), grabbing warlock for your 4th and 5th levels isn't bad because you can use hex to give the opponent disadvantage to strength ability checks to be able to consistently force the opponent to lose grapples.

The big thing to remember when building and playing a bard is that you are the party's enabler. On par, your character will be 50-80% as powerful as everyone else in the party; however, you make everyone else 50-100% stronger. It's a lot like classic support play in LoL. You take a hit so the rest of the team can be massively more powerful.

LoL? Not sure what you are referencing.

Here are my point buy abilities:

Variant Human, Feat-Skilled
ST 8 - so medium armor if I MC cleric?
DE 16
CO 10
IN 10
WI 13
CH 16

[ZorroGames]

Party composition unknown but seems Warlock, Wizard, Sorceror, Rogue very "In" and Fighter, Ranger, very "Out" in the AL players I have played with prior games. Somedays my Mountain Dwarf Monk has been the closest to a meat shield in the party (once the only one.)

Found a Dwarf Barbarian player, a Half-elf Paladin, a (Wood Elf?) Monk player plus the usual non-human arcane spell casters last week. Utility skills are noticably absent in the games so far. Maybe because people are not thinking a lot about the non-combat elements or maybe because they did not pick utility skills much.

I almost certainly would be the only human character (so far) out of the players not locked into campaigns who played in any of the AL pick up games. Several DMs have commented on the prominence of Elf, Half-Elf, and other demi-humans in the gaming.

[ZorroGames]

It really depends on party composition. But as a general rule of thumb, Lore Bard don't want to MC into Warlock until they hit level 7. This is because of a few different things. First, Bard 5 gives Font of Inspiration is often a pretty major party buff (slightly less so in AL play, but still significant), D8 inspiration dice, and Hypnotic Pattern which is your best AoE control spell. Second, Bard 6 gives you Magical Secrets for any two 3rd or lower level spells in the game; often I find it's Aura of Vitality + preference. Third, Bard 7 gives you Polymorph which is the best healing spell in the game. Warlock 1 gives you very little outside of Eldritch Blast; Warlock 2 gives you little past a much better Eldritch Blast. In comparison, a Cleric 1 dip gives you armor, increased spell casting, more spells known (including Bless, Cure Wounds, and Healing Word) so you can use your Bard spells known slots on the best bard slots, increased armor proficiency (heavy or medium and shields), and a domain ability. Cleric 1 is great to dip at almost any point in Bard builds because the benefits it gives gives you sustainability (hard to hit) and versatility (get better choice from Bard spells instead of "needing" to take Cure Wounds and/or Healing Word) while it only costs a minor decrease in your power spikes ( as it delays learning higher level spells and hitting class features by 1 level). Warlock 2 is a much longer delay in power spikes for more focused (offensive) strengths. While Warlock offers 1-2 renewable spell slots, it means you hit your benchmark spells and abilities two levels behind everyone else; it's hard because you're often significantly lower in power and you get the "feels bad man" when you see people casting Fireball when you're still stuck on Blindness.

That said... If your party is mostly melee with little to no ranged DPS, then an earlier dip into Warlock 2 makes sense as your 4th and 5th levels. At level 5 (bard 3/warlock 2), you get two 1d10+cha attacks that you can also add hex damage consistently. Additionally if you're planning on being a grappling-focused bard (or have a party member who's heavily invested in grappling), grabbing warlock for your 4th and 5th levels isn't bad because you can use hex to give the opponent disadvantage to strength ability checks to be able to consistently force the opponent to lose grapples.

The big thing to remember when building and playing a bard is that you are the party's enabler. On par, your character will be 50-80% as powerful as everyone else in the party; however, you make everyone else 50-100% stronger. It's a lot like classic support play in LoL. You take a hit so the rest of the team can be massively more powerful.

So you are suggesting Cleric 1 after Bard 1 then Bard thru 7 when I could try adding Warlock 1 before proceeding to climb the Bard ladder?

[JellyPooga]

Honestly? Never. Bard doesn't need to be competetive in the DPR stakes and loses so much from dipping Warlock for so little gain, if only because if you're dipping Warlock you need at least 2 levels to make it worthwhile, if not more. That's a significant hit for a full-caster, let alone the delay/loss of higher level Bard abilities.

If you really must take that Warlock dip, you either need to get it over with ASAP and take your Warlock levels before mainlining Bard (i.e. go Warlock 2 before picking up your 1st level of Bard), or wait until Bard has hit its stride and don't bother until after level 11, when you've grabbed your level 10 Magical Secrets and 6th level spells.

[agnos]

So you are suggesting Cleric 1 after Bard 1 then Bard thru 7 when I could try adding Warlock 1 before proceeding to climb the Bard ladder?
No, I was trying to give explanation for why and when to multiclass by way of example. Overall, I think a Cleric 1 dip is better (more effective) than a Warlock 2 dip for Bards; but both can be good if used properly. But I wasn't suggesting you dip Cleric instead of Warlock; though given your responses, I think it would be better. I was trying to give you the reasoning for why I take dips where I do when it comes to being a bard so that you can look and my logic and make the decision for yourself. I will remind you that you don't need strength to use heavy armor; if you don't meet the Str requirement, you only lose 10' movement speed. It's a penalty, but it's not one that difficult to play with. The important thing is that you think about what you lose by taking a MC and compare that to what you gain by taking the MC. If you are gaining more power for your party by doing X, then do X. Your role as a bard is to amplify your party member's power to epic proportions; it's not be the hard carry that solos fights all by yourself.

For an unknown party in AL, I'd personally recommend the cleric dip both for AC and for Bless; additionally because in AL play there are limited Short Rests which let you renew your warlock spell slots the daily slots you would gain from "true caster" levels are more powerful. Generally, DPS isn't a problem in AL; or at least it hasn't been at the tables I've played/run. However, I can think of at least 4 separate times where my ability to off-tank due to heavy armor and shield changed fights dramatically. Interestingly, those include play at the first three tiers of play (as I haven't played 17-20 tier with my bards yet). Don't underestimate how good Dodge, Shield of Faith, and Cutting Words can be for plugging a hole; it gets even better if you replace SoF with Spirit Guardians for AoE damage and zone control. Also for AL, I'd recommend "being selfish" with your build; by that I mean, don't plan on having anyone else at the table. So if you don't plan to grapple, I likely wouldn't dip Warlock to for hex. Take things that you know will be effective in a wide variety of situations (like Spirit Guardians and Aura of Vitality) while eschewing choices that are situational.

Also fwiw, if you do dip Cleric there are reasons to start cleric (for Wis save proficiency) and reasons to start bard (more tool proficiencies, better skill proficiency selection, Dex save proficiency); either is fine. I have I think 5 bards I play (in AL); four of which are lore bards, and all of those have gone either Bard 1/ Cleric 1 or vice versa before continuing down bard.

[Finger6842]

LoL? Not sure what you are referencing.

Here are my point buy abilities:

Variant Human, Feat-Skilled
ST 8 - so medium armor if I MC cleric?
DE 16
CO 10
IN 10
WI 13
CH 16

You currently have a lot of choices for MC including Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer and Warlock. There's no good place to take extra levels in any other class as it will leave you lagging behind combat power wise, which is already an issue. Don't worry though, Bard is tops in so many other things.

If you want to dip Cleric or Fighter and maybe Rogue, then do it at either 1 or 2 (I would choose 2 for the extra skills). Otherwise, I would wait until 7. The only other one I say is best at level 1 is Wizard.

The hard part is most options involving armor only really help you at low levels. At high levels, you will get hit pretty often regardless. Your party make up is a large part of this decision.

What race/class combos do you have in the party? 2 levels of lock might provide a nice steady ranged DPS but won't help you in many other ways. Sorcerer might be better here, remember that you can have several additional spells.

Normally I would recommend 1 Priest and 1 Wizard but you don't qualify. /sadness

What feat will you take that makes you want variant Human? For Bard Standard Human is better IMO if you need to be Human. Otherwise, you want Half Elf which you can RP as Human if you choose.

Are these the orignial stats? If not what were they? I agree that STR is the best dump stat for Bard so your numbers look well chosen to me.

[rudy]

I did a very fun Warlock / Bard that I'm still having a blast with (currently Warlock 5 / Bard 9). All I can say is how I did it.

Warlock 2 > Bard 6 > Warlock 5 > Bard +

Get to the eldritch blast right away, then magical secrets, then 3rd level short rest spell slots FOR those magical secrets, then bard the rest of the way.

This is not "optimal" in terms of peak power, but it provides a simply absurd amount of versatility, and resources.

If you're set on the Warlock 2 only, then I would start with it, because Wisdom save > Dexterity save, basically, and then go Bard the rest of the way.

[Degwerks]

I have a 13 lore bard / 2 warlock in a currently suspended campaign. By far the most powerful and dangerous person in the group. When we stopped playing I had just learned Simulacrum and hadn't had a chance to copy anyone yet.

I played him as a blaster and manipulating mastermind. Extreme amount of fun.

[Finger6842]

I have a 13 lore bard / 2 warlock in a currently suspended campaign. By far the most powerful and dangerous person in the group. When we stopped playing I had just learned Simulacrum and hadn't had a chance to copy anyone yet.

I played him as a blaster and manipulating mastermind. Extreme amount of fun.

What else was in the group and what made him powerful? I'm looking forward to trying it on my next, well second next, campaign.

[ZorroGames]

You currently have a lot of choices for MC including Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer and Warlock. There's no good place to take extra levels in any other class as it will leave you lagging behind combat power wise, which is already an issue. Don't worry though, Bard is tops in so many other things.

If you want to dip Cleric or Fighter and maybe Rogue, then do it at either 1 or 2 (I would choose 2 for the extra skills). Otherwise, I would wait until 7. The only other one I say is best at level 1 is Wizard.

The hard part is most options involving armor only really help you at low levels. At high levels, you will get hit pretty often regardless. Your party make up is a large part of this decision.

What race/class combos do you have in the party? 2 levels of lock might provide a nice steady ranged DPS but won't help you in many other ways. Sorcerer might be better here, remember that you can have several additional spells.

Normally I would recommend 1 Priest and 1 Wizard but you don't qualify. /sadness

What feat will you take that makes you want variant Human? For Bard Standard Human is better IMO if you need to be Human. Otherwise, you want Half Elf which you can RP as Human if you choose.

Are these the orignial stats? If not what were they? I agree that STR is the best dump stat for Bard so your numbers look well chosen to me.
Those Stats after adding the two +1's.

[ZorroGames]

You currently have a lot of choices for MC including Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer and Warlock. There's no good place to take extra levels in any other class as it will leave you lagging behind combat power wise, which is already an issue. Don't worry though, Bard is tops in so many other things.

If you want to dip Cleric or Fighter and maybe Rogue, then do it at either 1 or 2 (I would choose 2 for the extra skills). Otherwise, I would wait until 7. The only other one I say is best at level 1 is Wizard.

The hard part is most options involving armor only really help you at low levels. At high levels, you will get hit pretty often regardless. Your party make up is a large part of this decision.

What race/class combos do you have in the party? 2 levels of lock might provide a nice steady ranged DPS but won't help you in many other ways. Sorcerer might be better here, remember that you can have several additional spells.

Normally I would recommend 1 Priest and 1 Wizard but you don't qualify. /sadness

What feat will you take that makes you want variant Human? For Bard Standard Human is better IMO if you need to be Human. Otherwise, you want Half Elf which you can RP as Human if you choose.

Are these the orignial stats? If not what were they? I agree that STR is the best dump stat for Bard so your numbers look well chosen to me.

I generally play Mountain Dwarf so far but before 5th I DM'ed/played White Box thru AD&D/1st before breaking for real life.

Back in the Dark Ages I played Dwarf Fighters, Clerics, one Fighter/Thief; Human Clerics, Fighters, and one Mage character.

Current (only) AL figure is a Mountain Dwarf Monk. Human was next on my TBP (To Be Played) list then Hill Dwarf, and Forest Gnome.

Party has not stabilized. IF everyone showed up for the current AL game we would have 9 players but I and one other are the most consistent. I am expecting (since we must now reserve table slots in games due to competition with others games) the party to possibly divide and stabilize.I just figured it might be good to have my "next" figure ready and do something 'not bashy' - by which I mean Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric, Paladin, Rogue. No interest in Druids, Elf, Halfling, Dragonborn, Tiefling, Rock Gnome, Sorceror.

[ZorroGames]

Every game so dar we have been hurting utility wise because everybody has leaned towards blasting and bashing so far. Humans are usually only encountered as NPCs.

[Sigreid]

What I've done is I took the spell sniper feat to get EB with increased damage, range and accuracy. I don't get to add CHA, but I can wait for that now that the primary desire for a solid ranged option has been met. I still think I'll do the warlock for 2 levels thing, but the urgency is gone.

[Degwerks]

What else was in the group and what made him powerful? I'm looking forward to trying it on my next, well second next, campaign.

We had a ranger, barbarian, fighter, and a guy who switched classes constantly, his characters were cleric, blood hunter, paladin and dragon rider cheese.

I had 22 charisma from a tome and a Rod of the Pact Keeper to boost my hit and spell dc. Banishment and Plane Shift took some guys out of the fight fast. Fireball and Heat Metal and Moonbeam. Damage over Time AoE spells were great with forced movement from Eldritch Blast and Dissonant Whispers. Buff spells that didn't need concentration placed on myself with polymorph following after those spells. Running around as a T-rex or giant ape with armor of agathys and Fire Shield.

Cutting Words and Counterspell were great reaction uses.

[Finger6842]

We had a ranger, barbarian, fighter, and a guy who switched classes constantly, his characters were cleric, blood hunter, paladin and dragon rider cheese.

I had 22 charisma from a tome and a Rod of the Pact Keeper to boost my hit and spell dc. Banishment and Plane Shift took some guys out of the fight fast. Fireball and Heat Metal and Moonbeam. Damage over Time AoE spells were great with forced movement from Eldritch Blast and Dissonant Whispers. Buff spells that didn't need concentration placed on myself with polymorph following after those spells. Running around as a T-rex or giant ape with armor of agathys and Fire Shield.

Cutting Words and Counterspell were great reaction uses.

Sounds amazing, I can't wait to try it. In deference to the OP, which levels did you dip lock and why did you choose to do it then?

[Foxhound438]

Honestly? Never. Bard doesn't need to be competetive in the DPR stakes and loses so much from dipping Warlock for so little gain, if only because if you're dipping Warlock you need at least 2 levels to make it worthwhile, if not more. That's a significant hit for a full-caster, let alone the delay/loss of higher level Bard abilities.

If you really must take that Warlock dip, you either need to get it over with ASAP and take your Warlock levels before mainlining Bard (i.e. go Warlock 2 before picking up your 1st level of Bard), or wait until Bard has hit its stride and don't bother until after level 11, when you've grabbed your level 10 Magical Secrets and 6th level spells.

This. No, really, I read the title of this thread and struggled to keep my eyes from rolling out of my skull, partially because of how prolific warlock 2 is on everything, and partially because of how little thought people put into what they're really losing at any given point. 2 WL levels is only ever going to get worse for a full caster, as the loss only ever gets worse- maybe at first you're delaying 4th level spells, but once you get those you've delayed 5th level spells, and once you get those you could have had 6th level spells, etc. Those are way more powerful than a cantrip that's overhyped, especially considering the damage options you can pick up from magical secrets at any given point.

[RSP]

If going to 20, I'd suggest either taking 2 Wiz levels, if able with stats, for a lot more Cantrips, 1st level spells, 1st level rituals, and Portent; or 3 levels of Sorc for Meta Magic.

Either option is better than Warlock, in my opinion (a Lore Bard has much better options than blasting, and Firebolt isn't worthless), and Bard 19 and 20 are pointless levels (unless you really need a Feat at 19 for some reason). Going either Wiz or Sorc maintains Spell Slot progression.

Wiz 2 works best as it keeps your level 9 Magic Secrets, though there's an argument for Meta Magic being worth the trade.

However, I wouldn't MC before Bard 10. Bard 14 is tough to put off as well. And if you go 14, you might as well just go for Bard 15 and get Mind Blank, but really Bard 1-10 shouldn't be messed with but any point after would be fine.

[Decstarr]

The way I understand it, you are asking from an optimization point of view. In that case, as has been mentioned before, the answer is "never". As many people said already, Bard is THE utility class in 5e and should be played as such. I don't see the benefit of dipping into any damage improving class because frankly, that's not what a bard is meant to do and bards are just really good at what they are supposed to do and don't really need to MC.

If you are asking for flavor reasons, the answers is "whenever it suits you".

[Dappershire]

At level zero.

For when the Devouring Maw breaks through from the Void, and mothers give birth to twisted, tentacled things; no amount of singing will keep the Outer Hunger at bay. All will kneel. All will fall. All will gibber as they join the Mad Soulscape and await redemption, and digestion.

[ZorroGames]

As expected, a wide range of answers, most of which stayed on topic.

Thanks, until I get some form of stable group I will just keep my level 1 Bard character in reserve as an utility potential reserve character and keep bashing with my Mountain Dwarf Monk.

[Zene]

Bard 7 gives you Polymorph which is the best healing spell in the game.

Can you clarify? How is Polymorph used to heal?

[ZorroGames]

This quote was why I asked:

Bard/Warlock
A bard who dips warlock gains the full blasting capability of warlock in just two levels. Eldritch blast with agonizing and possibly repelling blast, immediately fixes the bard's innate lack of powerful at will blasting. Both are cha based, making this SAD. The warlock slots are great for some short rest recovery, at the cost of higher level bard spells and slots. It is best left for lore bards, as valor bards would likely prefer the higher level bard spells for buffing and boosting their attack stat over cha. It is worth mentioning that valor bards could benefit from the tome locks access to cha shillelagh for a SAD build.

And level 20 is not something I expect my AL games to go to plus the Bard Capstone seems meh to me.

[Citan]

Honestly? Never. Bard doesn't need to be competetive in the DPR stakes and loses so much from dipping Warlock for so little gain, if only because if you're dipping Warlock you need at least 2 levels to make it worthwhile, if not more. That's a significant hit for a full-caster, let alone the delay/loss of higher level Bard abilities.

If you really must take that Warlock dip, you either need to get it over with ASAP and take your Warlock levels before mainlining Bard (i.e. go Warlock 2 before picking up your 1st level of Bard), or wait until Bard has hit its stride and don't bother until after level 11, when you've grabbed your level 10 Magical Secrets and 6th level spells.
Honestly? That kind of advice is not very useful, because you give an opinion that does not care at all about what a party would really need, nor care to try and imagine several situations to evaluate Warlock dip benefit.


Assume 2 levels of MC to get Archfey Expanded Spells, good old Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Invocations...

After the ASI at 4th for the Bard? Earlier? Later?

The idea is to give my future College of Lore Bard some ranged damage along with his skill sets.

I read PeteNutButter's MC guide and it did not indicate when might be best for a Bard that was not planning on getting the Bard Capstone...
When to multiclass?
Basically, when you need the feel to.
You have schematically three reasons you may want to multiclass Warlock into (truth is a bit more complex because there are also nice exclusive spells, but let's keep it to a manageable level).

1. Eldricht Blast
It's a great addition to any class, and in particular to a Lore Bard which lacks any decent damage. Now, before you take a multiclass for that, consider first what it takes the space of: in small groups (3-4), being able to deal good sustained damage is great. In larger groups, you should find enough other things to do with your action. And if you run out of spells so fast you don't have anything left for half the remaining encounters, then maybe there is a management problem on your part, or a pacing problem on DM side.
Also, some higher level Bard spells with concentration tend to provide something useful to do with the action, so you should find yourself less and less often in the "what can I do that would be useful with my action" situation (also, worst case, you can always Help someone).
>> If multiclass for Agonizing Blast, only do in small parties, and no reason to dip before at least character level 6-7 (because of first upgrade coming only at level 5, and the importance of having 3rd level spells ASAP).

2. Pact benefits
a) Blade: On a Lore Bard, I see very little reason to take the Blade pact. On a Valor Bard, it's basically having a magic weapon at-will. Unless you are in a very low magic equipment setting and fighting physical resistant enemies really often, I don't think it's worth the dip at all.

b) Chain: Chain is good if you want to really take advantage of the special pets's special features (invisibility, magic resistance) but otherwise it's a net loss compared to what you would have gained with Bard levels (you can cope fairly well with a basic Find Familiar). Even then, there is no good reason to dip before at least having Bard's 3rd level spells at least (magic is usually not that big a threat in the first tier except some specific campaigns so you don't need magic resistance early. Same with scouting, usually enemies are not set up very carefully against level 1-4 characters ime).

c) Tome: Now Tome, brings the great "know all Rituals", and many are great rituals any support caster wants to have (Alarm, Gentle Repose, Detect spells etc). BUT, if you want the best rituals, which are 3rd level, you'd have to go at least up to Warlock 5, which is not a dip anymore. And you have to consider the opportunity cost compared to Ritual Caster feat, which restricts in another way.
So, unless there is really nobody able to ritual cast (in which case going Warlock 5 is a great idea), if the main reason for dipping was rituals, it's better to plan in advance and keep a WIS 13 and grab Ritual Caster: Wizard (strange as it may, RAW does not tie the attribute requirement with the choice of caster list) which provides most of the good rituals, then hand-picking the other ones you need from Bard spell list or Magic Secrets.

3. Short-rest slots
If there is a particular spell (or several of the same level) you find yourself casting very often (Bless from Magic Secrets, Healing Words, Faerie Fire, Heat Metal, Blindness, Silence, Invisibility, Enhance Ability, Bestow Curse, Slow/Counterspell/Haste etc from Magic Secrets), and provided DM gives you at least one short rest over a day, then dipping/multiclassing into Warlock to get the desired "level" as short-rest slots can be a very sound tactic.
If those few spells really found the party tactics and proved essential to its success (and are either 1st or 2nd level), it may even be worth multiclassing into Warlock before getting Bard's 3rd level spells.
(Honestly, I cannot imagine such a situation right now, but I'm not one to say "never").

>>> Generally, Lore Bard provides too many interesting features at each level to make an early dip (before level 6) worth, unless you are in a very specific party configuration (like absolutely no ranged damage for example > Agonizing Blast, or you have very high DEX and wants to melee > Mage Armor + weapon cantrips).
Or, of course, if having made a contract with a powerful evil entity is a core feature of your character concept (in which case, might as well gain mechanical benefits from it right? ;)).

Beyond that, you have to take each of those three "pillars" and see how much they each interest you.
- All three? Dip right now and never look back. Consider even dipping before Bard 5 for the low-level spell spam.
- Two of them? Dip between Bard 7 and 10 usually: earlier is usually not strictly necessary and delays the short-rest Bardic Inspiration, 3rd level spells and Magic Secrets. Later means you won't profit much of that multiclass in most campaigns.
- Only Agonizing Blast? Unless your party heavily lacks damage, you can wait easily until you are Bard 10.
- Only Rituals? If your DM is nice and you need many rituals from several classes, dip right away. Otherwise, don't bother and just take Ritual Caster feat.
- Only Short-rest slots? Dip as soon as you already know that spell you want to spam.
- You don't really know? Then you probably don't need any dipping and would better stick on getting higher level Bard spells ASAP. :)

Have fun!


Can you clarify? How is Polymorph used to heal?
It does not at all.
Agnos just took a "vocabulary shortcut" of sorts.
What he meant is that by Polymorphing someone, you effectively transform him into a specific creature which has its own pool of HP, and only when these HP are depleted (or your concentration break) will your ally revert back to his (poor sad) state.
So Polymorph can basically be used as a powerful single-target Temporary Hit Points buff which boost your ally's survival chances in a tight situation. Especially if you also choose a form which has some kind of evasion or great mobility he can use to put himself to safety. ;) Or he had nothing meaningful to contribute to a fight as is (like, caster with no slots left and fire cantrip against a Fire Giant XD) and the chosen form allows him to contribute solidly again, making your win come faster and easier. :)

[JellyPooga]

Honestly? That kind of advice is not very useful, because you give an opinion that does not care at all about what a party would really need, nor care to try and imagine several situations to evaluate Warlock dip benefit.

Whether you find my opinion useful or not doesn't make the expression of it useless. Without knowing party composition or the players chosen role, only that they want to dip Warlock from Bard for the expressed purpose of adding decent reliable damage output, my advice not to multiclass at all is of use; you don't generally play a Wizard to get stuck into melee, you don't generally play a Fighter to cast spells and you don't play a Bard to deal damage. Bard is a support class. Yes, they can built to be decent at dealing damage and a Warlock dip will enable that. By doing so, however, you take away from the core abilities of the Bard Class. That's something worthy of consideration, even if the player in question decides that yes, he does want that bit of extra oopmh and the option to deal some damage.

Tl;dr - the advice is sound, even if it isn't taken.

[ZorroGames]

Whether you find my opinion useful or not doesn't make the expression of it useless. Without knowing party composition or the players chosen role, only that they want to dip Warlock from Bard for the expressed purpose of adding decent reliable damage output, my advice not to multiclass at all is of use; you don't generally play a Wizard to get stuck into melee, you don't generally play a Fighter to cast spells and you don't play a Bard to deal damage. Bard is a support class. Yes, they can built to be decent at dealing damage and a Warlock dip will enable that. By doing so, however, you take away from the core abilities of the Bard Class. That's something worthy of consideration, even if the player in question decides that yes, he does want that bit of extra oopmh and the option to deal some damage.

Tl;dr - the advice is sound, even if it isn't taken.

FWIW, I try and have some form of damage available for a character "just in case" and looking Lore Bard for utility focus and reading PeteNutButter guide I prefer ranged iver melee if possible in semi-squishy and squishy characters.

Also FWIW, I never expect to make level 20 in AL play and, in any case, the Bard Capstone is just meh to me.

[JeffreyGator]

1. Eldritch Blast
It's a great addition to any class, and in particular to a Lore Bard which lacks any decent damage. Now, before you take a multiclass for that, consider first what it takes the space of: in small groups (3-4), being able to deal good sustained damage is great.

2. Pact benefits
c) Tome: Now Tome, brings the great "know all Rituals", and many are great rituals any support caster wants to have (Alarm, Gentle Repose, Detect spells etc). BUT, if you want the best rituals, which are 3rd level, you'd have to go at least up to Warlock 5, which is not a dip anymore. And you have to consider the opportunity cost compared to Ritual Caster feat, which restricts in another way.
So, unless there is really nobody able to ritual cast (in which case going Warlock 5 is a great idea), if the main reason for dipping was rituals, it's better to plan in advance and keep a WIS 13 and grab Ritual Caster: Wizard (strange as it may, RAW does not tie the attribute requirement with the choice of caster list) which provides most of the good rituals, then hand-picking the other ones you need from Bard spell list or Magic Secrets.

3. Short-rest slots
If there is a particular spell (or several of the same level) you find yourself casting very often (Bless from Magic Secrets, Healing Words, Faerie Fire, Heat Metal, Blindness, Silence, Invisibility, Enhance Ability, Bestow Curse, Slow/Counterspell/Haste etc from Magic Secrets), and provided DM gives you at least one short rest over a day, then dipping/multiclassing into Warlock to get the desired "level" as short-rest slots can be a very sound tactic.
If those few spells really found the party tactics and proved essential to its success (and are either 1st or 2nd level), it may even be worth multiclassing into Warlock before getting Bard's 3rd level spells.
(Honestly, I cannot imagine such a situation right now, but I'm not one to say "never").

>>> Generally, Lore Bard provides too many interesting features at each level to make an early dip (before level 6) worth, unless you are in a very specific party configuration (like absolutely no ranged damage for example > Agonizing Blast, or you have very high DEX and wants to melee > Mage Armor + weapon cantrips).
Or, of course, if having made a contract with a powerful evil entity is a core feature of your character concept (in which case, might as well gain mechanical benefits from it right? ;)).

Beyond that, you have to take each of those three "pillars" and see how much they each interest you.
- All three? Dip right now and never look back. Consider even dipping before Bard 5 for the low-level spell spam.
- Two of them? Dip between Bard 7 and 10 usually: earlier is usually not strictly necessary and delays the short-rest Bardic Inspiration, 3rd level spells and Magic Secrets. Later means you won't profit much of that multiclass in most campaigns.
- Only Agonizing Blast? Unless your party heavily lacks damage, you can wait easily until you are Bard 10.
- Only Rituals? If your DM is nice and you need many rituals from several classes, dip right away. Otherwise, don't bother and just take Ritual Caster feat.
- Only Short-rest slots? Dip as soon as you already know that spell you want to spam.


This is all pretty spot on for my character right now. The character started Hexblade, took 4 levels of bard and then two more levels of lock.

Currently TomeLock 3 LoreBard 4.

My party is 3-4 players most sessions.

The character's patron was a bit more background flavor as well as why adventuring as opposed to the other more lucrative and less dangerous options available to highly skilled and charismatic person. The demi-goddess has come into much greater prominence with taking TomeLock since not having a cleric in the party this was the first time we had guidance and we make lots of skill checks.

There is also a bit more short rest healing available from short rests when there are many short rests possible (city adventuring for example).

In addition to eldritch blast spam, there is a bit more combat ability also with a SCAG cantrip, medium armor and shield.

Arguably, this could be an argument against Hexblade as written becoming canon - but I'm guessing we will see it very close to the current form in November. The HexBlade mechanics also bring many of the 1level dip benefits of the 1 level of cleric medium armor/shield.

[Citan]

Whether you find my opinion useful or not doesn't make the expression of it useless. Without knowing party composition or the players chosen role, only that they want to dip Warlock from Bard for the expressed purpose of adding decent reliable damage output, my advice not to multiclass at all is of use; you don't generally play a Wizard to get stuck into melee, you don't generally play a Fighter to cast spells and you don't play a Bard to deal damage. Bard is a support class. Yes, they can built to be decent at dealing damage and a Warlock dip will enable that. By doing so, however, you take away from the core abilities of the Bard Class. That's something worthy of consideration, even if the player in question decides that yes, he does want that bit of extra oopmh and the option to deal some damage.

Tl;dr - the advice is sound, even if it isn't taken.
I'm sorry but I still think it's not, because you found it on the sole Agonizing Blast aspect without even taking all other benefits into account, which may or not make the dip worth enough, depending on the party.

You seem to consider that everyone want to follow the "canons" of each class, but I'm really not sure that is the case.
And on Bard case especially, it seems to me that the general opinion is that capstone can be ditched without regret in most cases. So the true cost of dipping is ASI and dealy in higher spell access: indeed a significant one, may be still be worth for enabling some tactics or shoring up a weakness in party or character.

Since you were lacking information as you stressed, options are to either express several hypothesis and tailor advice on these basis, or just ask for this lacking information. ;)

Anyways this is off-topic so I'll stop here. ;)



Arguably, this could be an argument against Hexblade as written becoming canon - but I'm guessing we will see it very close to the current form in November. The HexBlade mechanics also bring many of the 1level dip benefits of the 1 level of cleric medium armor/shield.
I have a very different opinion. XD
I daresay the chance of Hexblade being officialized in a form very close to the current is near 0. The way the basic feature is worded is enough to make hell break loose on game balance, especially once multiclass and feats are considered.
Reasons for that...
- auto-scaling bonus damage (proficiency) first level onwards;
- non-concentration;
- affects any and every roll;
- critical hit EVEN ON SPELL ATTACK ROLLS FFS;
- with THP on die.
It's like putting Champion Fighter, Draconic Sorcerer, Evocation Wizard and Fiend Warlock all combined in a neat package, without even the limitations Sorcerer/Wizard have on their +CHA/INT damage feature (since here, per how it's written, it would affect any and every instance of damage, like on Scorching Ray, which has still been errataed for Draconic Sorcerer or Evocation Wizard).

Same problem with Phoenix Sorcerer by the way.
Both are extremely creepy if I may say so, in how hard they go up the ramp of power creep.

Hexblade Warlock is kinda mandatory dip for any munchkin player: whether you put it on a Wizard with weapon cantrips, a caster that likes instant multiroll spells (Scorching Ray) or concentration, repetitive effects (Wall of Fire, Heat Metal, Moonbeam etc), or a plain Fighter (except maybe Champion) who will immediately benefit thanks to his high number of attacks.
And all of that for a short-rest replenishable bonus action. It's crazily, stupidly good.

Phoenix Sorcerer is exactly the same for any caster that would like to play with fire.

Now put a Phoenix Sorcerer dip on top of a Hexblade Warlock, grab Action Surge, max the rest in any caster (Evocation Wizard for example -totally random example obviously-)
And you get Scorching Ray + Scorching Ray + Eldricht Blast potential damage on a single target that probably easily goes beyond the 200 HP level (well, it does eat your highest slots so it's kinda expected too, but still)...
Even worse if you could grab a surprise round in which you will have cast Hex or Bestow Curse to add insult to injury.