Explain to me how Epic Spell Creation works (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So I honestly have no idea how the mechanics of Epic Spells work, some people say they are insanely powerful and from what I see they seem to be but what I don't understand specifically is the rules to create them. I have heard that they can create just about anything but the seeds seem to have some specific effect each so what am I missing?

[ColorBlindNinja]

This might help you. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm)

Creating Epic Spells is about picking seeds (the building blocks for each spell) and then applying factors to customize your spell as you see fit.

Every Epic Spell has a Spellcraft DC you must make to cast it. Adding factors increases that DC, while using Mitigation lessens it.

[Vaern]

The seeds have specific effects to start with, but there's a pretty big table of modifiers to apply to the seed to help develop the final spell. Effects include increasing the size of the damage dice, changing a targeted seed to an area of effect spell, adjusting the area in just about any conceivable manner, setting your own range and duration. So one might make a Life spell to simulate the effect of Resurrection, then add 10 to the spellcraft DC to change it from a single target spell to a 40-foot-cube area. There are also modifiers that add additional costs to reduce the DC of the spell, though - notably one which turns the spell into a ritual requiring additional casters to sacrifice spell slots.

Each seed has a base spellcraft DC, and each modifier adjusts the DC of the final spell accordingly. The spellcraft check must be rolled each time a character attempts to cast the spell, meaning that you may be able to cast a spell one time and then fail the next time if the DC is higher than your bonus in the spellcraft skill. However, if you make a spell a ritual, you can add pretty much as many additional participants as you want to reduce the DC. With leadership and an army of level 1 wizards or sorcerers, there's practically no limit to what spells you can cast.

[Vaz]

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm

Go here first. Specifically, "Developing Epic Spells", which will explain it. As you (should) know, you need both Epic Spellcasting feat, and to develop the Epic Spell yourself. Dependent on your class, you have a number of Epic spellslots equal to 1/10th your Knowledge skill relevant to your class; Arcana for Arcane, Religion for Divine. To cast it, you must pass the Epic Spells Spellcraft check to cast it; and no taking 20, but you can take 10 if you have the ability to do so (i.e not in combat). Failing it causes the slot to be used up.

There are a number of spells already in existence, which you can attempt to develop for yourself; once the spell is developed (time, xp and gp cost).

To create your own, you're going to want to look at the spell seeds to see what possible things you want to do. The simplest spells take only a single seed, although you can combine multiple increasing the DC for each one.

Let's say for example, we're going to create a powerful self buffing spell, using the Fortify seed.

As you can see, this has a Base DC of 17. You can increase this DC by changing what the spell does. Let's say that we're a newly Epic Caster, and want to create a buff spell. Let's say that we've retreated to our fastness, and want to make the most powerful buff spell we can before going into the next campaign; and by Taking 20 times as long to make the spell, we can guarantee +20 to the roll. Combined with the rest of our abilities, we can guarantee hitting DC60, so that can be our budget.

The Wizard knows that it's Con Save is pretty poor, and would like to give it a buff. DC17 gives it +1 to Con saves, but can increase that by +1 for +2 Spell DC cost. He wants to match his Will Save potential, and so wants to make it a +10 Enhancement Bonus to Con Saves; this means that the overall DC is 35. However, the Wizard wants to be less susceptible to chip damage, and so wants to have Damage Resistance - but knowing that some places he enters have Magic traps, he wants Damage Resistance (Epic); setting DC to 50, and +1 DC for each point of Damage Resistance it provides - and he wants to be pretty safe, so makes it Damage Resistance 30/epic.

However, that's way over budget, and he has to rain it in. Bringing the DR down to 20/epic, and providing only a +5 Bonus to Con Saves, he now has his DC60 Spellcrafting Save. However - the issue with that is that he would then struggle to make the spell castable; failing it would take the Epic Spell slot, so for that, he's going to want to improve it. Thinking quickly, that 2 Heads are better than one, and knowing that the 1 minute casting time and 20 hour duration should be enough, he quickly rustles up a Simulacrum, who donates his Epic Spellslot into a Ritual, providing a -19 to the Spellcraft DC, and automatically passing the Spellcraft Check made to cast that spell.

Note; Epic Spellcrafting is broken. To make a Permanent Duration spell, it will multiply the DC by 5 after working out it's overall DC. E.g, to make the above spell permanent, it will make the DC60 now DC300.

Alternatively, you could simply include an additional Seed with the Instantaneous Duration like Heal; for the low low cost of +25 DC, that earlier spell is now Instantaneous. It cannot be dispelled. It takes effect forever. (Forever ever). It can get quite hilarious.

[flappeercraft]

Well that helps a lot. Thank you

Now that I think about it, I remember reading on a post somewhere that you don't have to follow exactly the seed but can make the effect slightly different to that. Is that true? If so to what degree?

[Jormengand]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22156386&postcount=4) is a quick explanation of how to make epic spell creation viable, though the costs are high (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22158378&postcount=10) without excessive use of the Rod of Excellent Magic.

Of course, some uses of epic spells are somewhat overkill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22158617&postcount=16).

EDIT: As to not following the exact effect, that's a DM discretion type of thing, although some of the listed epic spells use ad hoc changes.

[Vaz]

As an example, Glibness is a 2nd level spell, providing a huge bluff bonus, but AFAIA, there's no epic seed allowing you to buff skill check modifiers; if Epic Spells cannot be created which improve Skill checks, how does Glibness? Or Jump?

[ColorBlindNinja]

As an example, Glibness is a 2nd level spell, providing a huge bluff bonus, but AFAIA, there's no epic seed allowing you to buff skill check modifiers; if Epic Spells cannot be created which improve Skill checks, how does Glibness? Or Jump?

I'm pretty sure the Fortify seed can do that, under the "some other statistic" line.

[Zanos]

Of course, some uses of epic spells are somewhat overkill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22158617&postcount=16).
Take this with a grain a salt, none of the example spells stack the modifiers to range or area this way.

Epic spells don't work at all without mitigation. And they're broken if you use too much.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Take this with a grain a salt, none of the example spells stack the modifiers to range or area this way.

They don't say that they don't stack either.


Epic spells don't work at all without mitigation. And they're broken if you use too much.

I've heard you can make some half-way decent buff spells without mitigation, but aside from that...

[Zanos]

They don't say that they don't stack either.
No, the example spells do stack the range and area modifiers, but they do so in an additive fashion. See my post from the same thread for examples.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22163487&postcount=38

[ColorBlindNinja]

No, the example spells do stack the range and area modifiers, but they do so in an additive fashion. See my post from the same thread for examples.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22163487&postcount=38

Well that's not confusing at all! :smalltongue:

[Cosi]

Epic spells don't work at all without mitigation. And they're broken if you use too much.

Yup. Epic Spellcasting has the unfortunate problem where doing things the way you're supposed to is painful, time consuming, and expensive, but doing them the broken way is easy, quick, and free.

[Jormengand]

No, the example spells do stack the range and area modifiers, but they do so in an additive fashion. See my post from the same thread for examples.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22163487&postcount=38

See my one:


Well, except that by that logic you could argue that pretty much every example character in 3.5, being incorrectly built as they are, is actually precedent for the rules working differently to how they're written down. No, whether it was the intention or not, whether the spells were built on that assumption (and we know that the epic spells have problems anyway), Last Word checks out based on the actual rules presented.