OOTS #1086 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lordikechi]

But if you wait for Roy you still have to fight Roy

[Xihirli]

Roy has a key.

And he might open the door for Greg and Pals.

[mouser9169]

How soon till the "nick of time"?

[Bob_McSurly]

'It's just a ...a wall!' Lol. Priceless

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Awww, that's a sweet memory. Also, good to get a little more information on how Durkon's memory works and a way that he can resist, even if just in a very minor way.

I'm liking these half panels used these days. I'm wondering what inspired the decision to use so many in this book.

[Gift Jeraff]

So that appears to be Durkon's grandfather next to his mom (same skintone) which likely indicates that the living grandpappy mentioned by Durkon at one point (I think OOTOPC) is his maternal one, further deepening the mystery of his paternal side. EDIT: Although the fact thay Durkon asked the bard about his dad pretty much already told us Durkon doesn't know any relative from his father's side.

And the vampire spirit is basically saying that after fully absorbing every memory, Durkon would no longer be a "discrete" consciousness. That seems to go hand in hand with the idea that Malack's ambiguity wasn't just for the sake of misleading the reader. A fully absorbed vampire probably sees a blur between its living self and undead self.

[Seafarer]

Durkon continues to be magnificent, I see. I really like all of this backstory, actually. And not-Gontor is really annoyed at that door, isn't he?

[Eragon123]

Durkon continues to be magnificent, I see. I really like all of this backstory, actually. And not-Gontor is really annoyed at that door, isn't he?

It's not a door. It's a wall.

[Keltest]

I am deeply enjoying The Former Gontor's (What did we name him in the last thread? Craig?) hierarchy antics. His uncalled for rage is deeply amusing.

[Sniffnoy]

Hm. I'm assuming Durkon*'s plan is to let Roy open the door? But then how will he get past the wards? One way or another, he needs to get in -- after all, his goal isn't to kill Roy but to influence the vote.

[Ruck]

Hmm. If Team Hel is preoccupied fighting Roy, how are they going to find and dominate the elders? I wonder if vampire!Durkon is too fixated on getting revenge / making Durkon's allies suffer to do his job effectively.

I suppose that, since we don't have an exact timeline for this, it makes sense that Roy is arriving before the Council convenes, but it still seems like something that could go badly for Team Hel if they're too busy fighting the OOTS and the Council meets and votes while they're doing that.

[The Giant]

I'm liking these half panels used these days. I'm wondering what inspired the decision to use so many in this book.

Increased use of half-page splash panels, mostly.

[faustin]

"That´s definitively a use fer it". Just me, or does it seem Durkon has his own reason to show Durkula this particular memory?
I guess as a Thor priest he visited the temple several other times. Maybe there were some new added features not shown in this scene (like extra wards)?

[Bob_McSurly]

Also, is this implying that Durkon's soul will cease to exist once it gives up all its memories, and sort of merge into greg, or does it just mean that Durkon won't be able to interact with greg anymore?
EDIT: Didn't see Gift Jeraff's post till after I posted mine.

[Ruck]

So that appears to be Durkon's grandfather next to his mom (same skintone) which likely indicates that the living grandpappy mentioned by Durkon at one point (I think OOTOPC) is his maternal one, further deepening the mystery of his paternal side. EDIT: Although the fact thay Durkon asked the bard about his dad pretty much already told us Durkon doesn't know any relative from his father's side.

And the vampire spirit is basically saying that after fully absorbing every memory, Durkon would no longer be a "discrete" consciousness. That seems to go hand in hand with the idea that Malack's ambiguity wasn't just for the sake of misleading the reader. A fully absorbed vampire probably sees a blur between its living self and undead self.
I checked out #991 to compare, but the crayon style makes it a little difficult-- however, it does appear that Tenrin's skin is redder whereas Durkon and Sidgi's are more brown.

[Doug Lampert]

It's not a door. It's a wall.

It's clearly a disobedient ingress.

[Ruck]

I just noticed all the angry priests in the back trying to shush Durkon's friends and family who are cheering him. Nice touch.

[are]

Looks like Gontor is becoming a little... unhinged.

What do you make of Durkon's "Thar's definitely a use fer it" in the fifth panel? It seems of a piece with his "Thar's definitely somethin' ta look forward ta..." from 963 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html), but I'm not connecting the dots yet.

Perhaps Durkon is misleading Greg? Maybe that isn't the same room?

He said the line in 963 in the context of Greg being unable to connect the dots between memories. Maybe this is Durkon taking advantage of that, somehow?

[Shining Wrath]

Lots of things ... worth doin' ... are na painless.

A plausible choice for Durkon's life motto.

I guess the Holy Symbol of Thor interferes with vampires. At least that's what I think is meant by "wards".

It appears Durkula's goal is to kill Roy as much, or more, as it is to interfere with the vote. Hel's chief minion is slipping out of her fingers, and she may not even know it.

[are]

I guess the Holy Symbol of Thor interferes with vampires. At least that's what I think is meant by "wards".


I think he means the blue glyphs on the floor just inside the door. They look like the same lettering as the symbol on the runestone.

[Rogan]

It's not a door. It's a wall.

It's a door that want's to be a wall!

[Majin]

Vampire-Gontor is pretty funny. Maybe the original Gontor had some serious authority issues while alive, since the vampire's personality is based on the darkest experiences?


Also, is this implying that Durkon's soul will cease to exist once it gives up all its memories, and sort of merge into greg, or does it just mean that Durkon won't be able to interact with greg anymore?

Based on what Durkula told Durkon earlier, I thought after absorbing all the memories, Durkula would stop interacting with Durkon, and stash Durkon into some dark corner of his mind. Or maybe a light corner, since we're talking about a vampire. I don't think the soul will cease to exist, in any case, just remain trapped.

[Basement Cat]

It's clear that not all new vampires are as smart as they were before they were made undead. Geez.

So Greg agrees that they don't need to unseal the temple door. Why was it important then? Because they expected their targets to gather in the temple and they planned to stake it out so they could pounce and Dominate everyone?

[GloatingSwine]

And the vampire spirit is basically saying that after fully absorbing every memory, Durkon would no longer be a "discrete" consciousness. That seems to go hand in hand with the idea that Malack's ambiguity wasn't just for the sake of misleading the reader. A fully absorbed vampire probably sees a blur between its living self and undead self.

Or, the vampire is sufficiently convinced of his goddess' impending victory that he's referring to the imminent end of the world, at which point all current souls will be shuffled and redealt to the gods for a new one.

[hroþila]

Or, the vampire is sufficiently convinced of his goddess' impending victory that he's referring to the imminent end of the world, at which point all current souls will be shuffled and redealt to the gods for a new one.
Nah, because if the world is destroyed Durkon will retain his discrete consciousness, even if he becomes one of Hel's slaves.

[Gnoman]

"That´s definitively a use fer it". Just me, or does it seem Durkon has his own reason to show Durkula this particular memory?
I guess as a Thor priest he visited the temple several other times. Maybe there were some new added features not shown in this scene (like extra wards)?

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those wards were temporary ones put into place specifically for the ceremonial swearing to Thor. Durkon just bluffed the vampire.

[Ruck]

Looks like Gontor is becoming a little... unhinged.

What do you make of Durkon's "Thar's definitely a use fer it" in the fifth panel? It seems of a piece with his "Thar's definitely somethin' ta look forward ta..." from 963 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html), but I'm not connecting the dots yet.

Perhaps Durkon is misleading Greg? Maybe that isn't the same room?

He said the line in 963 in the context of Greg being unable to connect the dots between memories. Maybe this is Durkon taking advantage of that, somehow?

Yeah, I think that's entirely possible. There's no particular reason to think Durkon was ordained at the temple in Firmament, as opposed to one of the others. Durkon may not have had a memory of "the other side of that door," but when called upon for a "useful memory" responds with something that seems to meet the request for information about that temple, but is really about another one.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Some nice quotes in this one. :smallbiggrin:

[Aka-chan]

What do you make of Durkon's "Thar's definitely a use fer it" in the fifth panel? It seems of a piece with his "Thar's definitely somethin' ta look forward ta..." from 963 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html), but I'm not connecting the dots yet.

Perhaps Durkon is misleading Greg? Maybe that isn't the same room?


The best thing I can think of is that maybe the temple sanctuary has undergone some major changes since that memory. It appears to be showing Durkon's ordination as a cleric of Thor--do we know how long ago that was? With a dwarven lifespan, the time he spent as a cleric pre-exile, wandering through human lands alone, adventuring with Roy pre-OOTs meetup, and then adventuring with the OOTS, could easily add up to decades. It's entirely plausible that the temple of Thor could have installed a Hallow or permanent Daylight spell or something else in the meantime that would be inimical to vampires. Even just a major remodeling of the temple layout could cause some confusion to the vamps as they're trying to find the elders and/or fight the OOTS.

[are]

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those wards were temporary ones put into place specifically for the ceremonial swearing to Thor. Durkon just bluffed the vampire.

Smart. That's exactly what I wasn't putting together.


Yeah, I think that's entirely possible. There's no particular reason to think Durkon was ordained at the temple in Firmament, as opposed to one of the others. Durkon may not have had a memory of "the other side of that door," but when called upon for a "useful memory" responds with something that seems to meet the request for information about that temple, but is really about another one.

Now that I come back to it, I think Gnoman is right. Durkon was just forced, or tortured, into giving up a memory of the inside of that specific temple, but it wasn't specified whether or not that's the regular security (see when Greg's eyes turn red and Durkon seems to be in pain). And Greg hasn't learned to be pedantic enough in his requests, even though he was just tripped up by exactly that. So it seems like this is a payoff of the inflexibility Durkon first noticed back in 963 after all.

[Sniffnoy]

Nah, because if the world is destroyed Durkon will retain his discrete consciousness, even if he becomes one of Hel's slaves.

Yeah -- going by this old comment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683417&postcount=34) of the Giant's, dead souls eventually do cease to be discrete consciousnesses, but it can take a long time. So probably not what Durkon* is referring to.

[KorvinStarmast]

So Greg agrees that they don't need to unseal the temple door. Why was it important then? Because they expected their targets to gather in the temple and they planned to stake it out so they could pounce and Dominate everyone? Because this is Durkon's major story arc, and it shows that he's fighting back, and being tenacious. Good dwarf.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those wards were temporary ones put into place specifically for the ceremonial swearing to Thor. Durkon just bluffed the vampire. I'll drop a few chips on that number. :smallcool:

Many things to like about this strip:

Lotsa things worth doing are na painless.

[IntelectPaladin]

It's always impressive to see a scene set like that,
especially such a relatable one.
Though I'll admit, the fact that we're seeing so much of Durkon's backstory worries me.
Thank you, Mr. Burlew.

[Gift Jeraff]

Or, the vampire is sufficiently convinced of his goddess' impending victory that he's referring to the imminent end of the world, at which point all current souls will be shuffled and redealt to the gods for a new one.

He seems to plan to plane shift before the world is destroyed and remain a flesh and blood vampire in Hel's planar domain, thus keeping Durkon's soul trapped in his mind for all eternity. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html)

[woweedd]

Hey, don't be hard on Gontor*. Dude was literally born yesterday.

[are]

Hey, don't be hard on Gontor*. Dude was literally born yesterday.

So you're saying he's dumb as a doorknob?

I mean, I guess you're right; that's definitely not how you cast "Hold Portal."

[Ruck]

Smart. That's exactly what I wasn't putting together.



Now that I come back to it, I think Gnoman is right. Durkon was just forced, or tortured, into giving up a memory of the inside of that specific temple, but it wasn't specified whether or not that's the regular security (see when Greg's eyes turn red and Durkon seems to be in pain). And Greg hasn't learned to be pedantic enough in his requests, even though he was just tripped up by exactly that. So it seems like this is a payoff of the inflexibility Durkon first noticed back in 963 after all.

I'm not sure at all which is more likely; I'm just brainstorming the possibilities. I do think that given Durkon's comment, it's too likely there's more than meets the eye to that memory, or that Durkon is deceiving Nose-Fur-atu in some way, etc.

[Bob_McSurly]

Nah, because if the world is destroyed Durkon will retain his discrete consciousness, even if he becomes one of Hel's slaves.
And Durkon would go to Valhalla anyway, since he died with honor.

[are]

And Durkon would go to Valhalla anyway, since he died with honor.

The vampire would have to be destroyed, though. As Greg teleports away, he says "Don't worry, Roy. I'll take good care of Durkon's soul for all eternity in my mistress' planar domain." He seems to think that when the world is destroyed, Durkon will go where he goes.

Rich has previously said on the forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17327934&postcount=236) that that's why vampires are horrifying and unnatural: they subvert your normal afterlife and you're stuck inside their mind until they're destroyed.

[Millstone85]

And the vampire spirit is basically saying that after fully absorbing every memory, Durkon would no longer be a "discrete" consciousness. That seems to go hand in hand with the idea that Malack's ambiguity wasn't just for the sake of misleading the reader. A fully absorbed vampire probably sees a blur between its living self and undead self.I really have to wonder how that inner dialogue goes for evil souls.

Fiend: Soon, all your sins shall be mine, all your virtues corrupted.
Soul: Bitch, I am all sin. Soon, you will be just like me, with fangs.
Fiend: Er, just like you...
Soul: Me... me, me, me.
Fiend: Me too.

[Dr Jackal]

I think the thing is that the temple was 'remodeled' after the initiation ceremony, in a way that removed or destroyed the wards.

I also suspect that the remodeling that occurred by Durkon's hand, and it was the reason for his exile.

My much more specific guess is that super-troll came back, and Durkon dropped the temple on it, in sort of a call-back to his father. Which means that Durkon saved the city, but in so doing committed a crime that demanded his exile.

[woweedd]

So you're saying he's dumb as a doorknob?

I mean, I guess you're right; that's definitely not how you cast "Hold Portal."
I'm saying that he literally has no life experience beyond whatever he's absorbed from Gontor. Alos, it's possible he's still in Thrall mode and, thusly, not even entirely free-willed yet. Durkon* acted pretty doepy/childish too before Malack died.

[Keltest]

I think the thing is that the temple was 'remodeled' after the initiation ceremony, in a way that removed or destroyed the wards.

I also suspect that the remodeling that occurred by Durkon's hand, and it was the reason for his exile.

My much more specific guess is that super-troll came back, and Durkon dropped the temple on it, in sort of a call-back to his father. Which means that Durkon saved the city, but in so doing committed a crime that demanded his exile.

we know exactly why Durkon was exiled.

The High priest of Odin got a prophecy that "When next durkon returned home, he would bring death and destruction." He was banished out of fear that the next time he went grocery shopping or something equally meaningless, he would "return home" and spark doom somehow, but he wasn't told the real reason for his banishing.

[Ruck]

I think the thing is that the temple was 'remodeled' after the initiation ceremony, in a way that removed or destroyed the wards.

I also suspect that the remodeling that occurred by Durkon's hand, and it was the reason for his exile.

My much more specific guess is that super-troll came back, and Durkon dropped the temple on it, in sort of a call-back to his father. Which means that Durkon saved the city, but in so doing committed a crime that demanded his exile.

We already know the reason for Durkon's exile; it's the prophecy from On the Origin of PCs.

[are]

I'm saying that he literally has no life experience beyond whatever he's absorbed from Gontor. Alos, it's possible he's still in Thrall mode and, thusly, not even entirely free-willed yet. Durkon* acted pretty doepy/childish too before Malack died.

Sorry, I should have used :smallcool: smileys to indicate that my post was just meant to read as a couple of door-based puns.

You're right, of course. He calls Greg "master" just before they teleport away, and they haven't raised any new vampires yet so there's no good reason for Greg to release him.

[woweedd]

we know exactly why Durkon was exiled.

The High priest of Odin got a prophecy that "When next durkon returned home, he would bring death and destruction." He was banished out of fear that the next time he went grocery shopping or something equally meaningless, he would "return home" and spark doom somehow, but he wasn't told the real reason for his banishing.
Oh, prophecies. Why are you always so ironic?

[Millstone85]

Oh, prophecies. Why are you always so ironic?Because precognition is a form of time travel, and self-fulfilling prophecies are just causal loops.

[Windscion]

Greg really really should have specified to whom the memory would be useful. Looks like Durkon's memory was more useful to Teams Thor and Stick than Team Hel.

[woweedd]

Sorry, I should have used :smallcool: smileys to indicate that my post was just meant to read as a couple of door-based puns.

You're right, of course. He calls Greg "master" just before they teleport away, and they haven't raised any new vampires yet so there's no good reason for Greg to release him.
Presumably, all the Creed vampires are Durkon's thralls. He spawned all of them, so they'll remain under his control until his own destruction. According to the SRD, a vampire can control as many spawn as they have hit dice times 2 and, given that a high-level Cleric like Durkon would already have quite a large amount of hit dice, a number that would only be increased by becoming a Vampire, he has quite a lot of those.

[woweedd]

Because precognition is a form of time travel, and self-fulfilling prophecies are just causal loops.
...You know, I never thought of it like that, but you're right.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I've just been figuring Durkon was using the memory to get the vampires to leave the Temple of Thor alone; meaning the Order will still have allies when they get there.

[Psyren]

I am deeply enjoying The Former Gontor's (What did we name him in the last thread? Craig?) hierarchy antics. His uncalled for rage is deeply amusing.

I'm fine calling him Gontor, it's not like he had a personality for long.

...Maybe "Gone-tor."


Also, is this implying that Durkon's soul will cease to exist once it gives up all its memories, and sort of merge into greg, or does it just mean that Durkon won't be able to interact with greg anymore?
EDIT: Didn't see Gift Jeraff's post till after I posted mine.

He'll pretty much be like Malack after a while - nothing meaningful left of the old identity, with the memories of his friends and family muted below the taste of their blood.


The best thing I can think of is that maybe the temple sanctuary has undergone some major changes since that memory. It appears to be showing Durkon's ordination as a cleric of Thor--do we know how long ago that was? With a dwarven lifespan, the time he spent as a cleric pre-exile, wandering through human lands alone, adventuring with Roy pre-OOTs meetup, and then adventuring with the OOTS, could easily add up to decades. It's entirely plausible that the temple of Thor could have installed a Hallow or permanent Daylight spell or something else in the meantime that would be inimical to vampires. Even just a major remodeling of the temple layout could cause some confusion to the vamps as they're trying to find the elders and/or fight the OOTS.

Leaning toward this too. Greg was very vague in his request - "show me a good view of the room on the other side of that door" does not specify anything about the timeframe. Basically, Durkon has learned that while he must show Greg exactly what he asks to see, he doesn't have to show him anything else that might be helpful.

[Wristlet Eater]

Presumably, all the Creed vampires are Durkon's thralls. He spawned all of them, so they'll remain under his control until his own destruction. According to the SRD, a vampire can control as many spawn as they have hit dice times 2 and, given that a high-level Cleric like Durkon would already have quite a large amount of hit dice, a number that would only be increased by becoming a Vampire, he has quite a lot of those.

Some might be thralls of his thralls, and anyway if Hel creates the vampire spirits they are likely to still be loyal if the chain of command breaks here or there.

[White Magic]

Yay, Durkon! :biggrin:
:durkon:"Lotsa things.... worth doin'... are na painless"



I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those wards were temporary ones put into place specifically for the ceremonial swearing to Thor. Durkon just bluffed the vampire.


Greg really really should have specified to whom the memory would be useful. Looks like Durkon's memory was more useful to Teams Thor and Stick than Team Hel.


Perhaps Durkon is misleading Greg? Maybe that isn't the same room?

He said the line in 963 in the context of Greg being unable to connect the dots between memories. Maybe this is Durkon taking advantage of that, somehow?

:elan:♫ "Fool, fool, fool the evil spirit."♫

[Ruck]

I've just been figuring Durkon was using the memory to get the vampires to leave the Temple of Thor alone; meaning the Order will still have allies when they get there.
Yeah, that seems to be the intended effect. Still some questions about in which manner the memory might be deceptive, if it is at all.


I'm fine calling him Gontor, it's not like he had a personality for long.

...Maybe "Gone-tor."
The Ex-Exarch?

[Yendor]

Looks like Gontor is becoming a little... unhinged.

No, he just wants the door to be unhinged.

[woweedd]

Some might be thralls of his thralls, and anyway if Hel creates the vampire spirits they are likely to still be loyal if the chain of command breaks here or there.
Not necessarily. A Vampire spirit doesn't HAVE to serve Hel: Durkon* serves her because he's meant as an Evil version of regular Durkon and, so, he's just as fanatically loyal to Hel as Durkon was to his God IE Thor. That said, given that all these vampires were in a religious cult themselves, you're still right. Though, actually, DID Hel create all their spirits? Are all these guys Northerners or were some of them from other parts of the world and had their spirits birthed by Nergal or Rat? Probably doesn't matter, but still, interesting idea.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's clear that not all new vampires are as smart as they were before they were made undead. Geez.

So Greg agrees that they don't need to unseal the temple door. Why was it important then? Because they expected their targets to gather in the temple and they planned to stake it out so they could pounce and Dominate everyone?

Because the vampire wanted a dramatic confrontation with Roy in the desecrated remains of the Temple of Thor. It's like the bloodsucker read Tarquin's book or something.

[Peelee]

It's clear that not all new vampires are as smart as they were before they were made undead. Geez.

Well, one of the few things we knew about Gontor was that he helped build the cathedral for the moot. He may have a good bit of Kmow: Architecture and Engineering, and the vamp controlling him is just getting flooded with architectural memories.

Which could lead to a rather large grudge against architecture, if he's not as interested in it. Stupid door.

[meto30]

A fear that minor vampire cleric forgets that, the purpose and social life of a door ends not merely at opening at closing to let entities in and out, it is a door by doing so selectively. It is neither a wall or a hole in a wall, it is a door, and it functions by being picky in what it lets in (authorised personnel, tasty morsels, proper paperwork) and what it keeps out (the cold winter air, the noise of the municipal highway, unwated vampires).1 Therefore, it is being entirely true to its intended role and is faithfully carrying out its duty - the vampire is merely meekly trying to resist the all-powerful automaton from inscribing in the vampire his social position.

[1] Latour, Bruno (1992), "Where are the missing masses? The sociology of a few mundane artifacts", in Bijker, Wiebe E.; Law, John, Shaping technology/building society: studies in sociotechnical change, Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press, pp. 225–258


Joking aside, that sight of Durkon's mother weeping a tear for her son's sake brings me to tears as well. She must have been so proud.

[woweedd]

Well, one of the few things we knew about Gontor was that he helped build the cathedral for the moot. He may have a good bit of Kmow: Architecture and Engineering, and the vamp controlling him is just getting flooded with architectural memories.

Which could lead to a rather large grudge against architecture, if he's not as interested in it. Stupid door.
Given that he'd presumably be a dark mirror of Gontor in the same way that Durkon's vampire spirit is a dark reflection of him, i'd imagine he wouldn't have much interest in it. Only in Hel.

[goodpeople25]

No, he just wants the door to be unhinged.
But if a hinged door isn't hinged, what is it for!?

[Wristlet Eater]

But if a hinged door isn't hinged, what is it for!?

You can make a table with it.

[Jasdoif]

But if a hinged door isn't hinged, what is it for!?"Door, what are you good for?"
"Aggravating vampires."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not necessarily. A Vampire spirit doesn't HAVE to serve Hel: Durkon* serves her because he's meant as an Evil version of regular Durkon and, so, he's just as fanatically loyal to Hel as Durkon was to his God IE Thor. That said, given that all these vampires were in a religious cult themselves, you're still right.

Yes, they were religious, but very prominently, chose to NOT follow a god, but a force of nature (stone), even though it meant not having a voice or a vote in the moots. Their vampire spirits could easily decide to eschew Hel and worship the dark energy instead.

GW

[Ruck]

It's clear that not all new vampires are as smart as they were before they were made undead. Geez.

So Greg agrees that they don't need to unseal the temple door. Why was it important then? Because they expected their targets to gather in the temple and they planned to stake it out so they could pounce and Dominate everyone?

That is what I expected. As I mentioned earlier, though, I think the evidence is pointing to the Order arriving before the Council, so Hel's Shell is trying to figure out a way to dispatch them first, before continuing on to rig the vote.


Not necessarily. A Vampire spirit doesn't HAVE to serve Hel: Durkon* serves her because he's meant as an Evil version of regular Durkon and, so, he's just as fanatically loyal to Hel as Durkon was to his God IE Thor. That said, given that all these vampires were in a religious cult themselves, you're still right. Though, actually, DID Hel create all their spirits? Are all these guys Northerners or were some of them from other parts of the world and had their spirits birthed by Nergal or Rat? Probably doesn't matter, but still, interesting idea.


Yes, they were religious, but very prominently, chose to NOT follow a god, but a force of nature (stone), even though it meant not having a voice or a vote in the moots. Their vampire spirits could easily decide to eschew Hel and worship the dark energy instead.

GW

This is all kind of academic, right? They're all still in thrall to Pastor Expiration (both the Ex-Exarch and the guy with the rock bat have referred to him as "Master").

[canpinter]

So Greg asked for a good view "of the room on the other side of this door" but he didn't say anything about wanting to know what came after that, could our lovable little dwarf just tricked him into going on a much longer and more dangerous path?

[Wristlet Eater]

This is all kind of academic, right? They're all still in thrall to Pastor Expiration (both the Ex-Exarch and the guy with the rock bat have referred to him as "Master").

The master of your master can also be called master, though.

[woweedd]

Yes, they were religious, but very prominently, chose to NOT follow a god, but a force of nature (stone), even though it meant not having a voice or a vote in the moots. Their vampire spirits could easily decide to eschew Hel and worship the dark energy instead.

GW
Very astute observation, GW.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is all kind of academic, right? They're all still in thrall to Pastor Expiration (both the Ex-Exarch and the guy with the rock bat have referred to him as "Master").

Probably. They do seem to be acting more like thralls (baby-ish) than free-willed, but my hypothesis would explain why Greg does not dare set them free: he cannot be sure of their allegiance once freed.

GW

[woweedd]

The master of your master can also be called master, though.
Hmmm..That raises the question: If Gontor* were to be taken out, say, in the coming battle, would his thralls all just default to Durkon*'s control or would they be freed and then, potentially, turn against Hel? Possible Chekhov's Gun in the making? Of course, that's assuming that it's even possible for a thrall to have thralls. I"m not sure if it is and i'm pretty sure RAW doesn't say anything on the subject.

[Anarion]

I really like the variety of the dwarf designs in the memory panels. Very cool family and friends group.

[Menarker]

I'm curious about the 'copy-paste' twins in panel 7. Only one of them is visible in panel 6. Error, or just well-hidden?

... maybe behind the girl with the doll, judging from the extra beige colored arm coming from her side?

[Ruck]

The master of your master can also be called master, though.

That's not relevant to the point I was making.

[PBlades]

If a door that wants to be closed is a wall, what is a door that wants to be opened?

[Psychronia]

Good to see Durkon being as tough as ever, and perhaps even a little more hope-driven than before?

Also, Nega-Gontor seems very fixated on this door thing.


It's a door that want's to be a wall!

Stop repressing my venture, you sociocentric lich!

[Jasdoif]

Hmmm..That raises the question: If Gontor* were to be taken out, say, in the coming battle, would his thralls all just default to Durkon*'s control or would they be freed and then, potentially, turn against Hel? Possible Chekhov's Gun in the making? Of course, that's assuming that it's even possible for a thrall to have thralls.It certainly is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).


....the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.Bold emphasis mine.

[Goblin_Priest]

"That´s definitively a use fer it". Just me, or does it seem Durkon has his own reason to show Durkula this particular memory?
I guess as a Thor priest he visited the temple several other times. Maybe there were some new added features not shown in this scene (like extra wards)?

I'm just guessing here, but did he show him a memory of the room at its strongest in order to deter Durkon* from pursuing a means to enter? The room might not have any wards left, choosing to show its former state would be one way (and about the only way) oppose him.

[pendell]

New comic is up.

WOoo! Lightning fast updates, great artwork, advancing story lines, funny last panel that makes me giggle, what's not to love? Thanks , Rich!

ETA: Thanks to the other posters here for pointing out Durkon's continued resistance: He was told to show a memory of the hall, not the most current one or the most useful one. It is very likely that Durkon succeeded in misleading his enemy. As mentioned , the visible "wards" may be only decorations, or are perhaps only temporary. I'm inclined to think the hall is not nearly as hostile an environment as it has been presented as, so score one for Durkon the Discrete Consciousness.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Goblin_Priest]

"Door, what are you good for?"
"Aggravating vampires."

Which reminds me one of vampires' ridiculous weaknesses: aren't they unable to enter a building unless invited in?

[One Step Two]

I'm curious about the 'copy-paste' twins in panel 7. Only one of them is visible in panel 6. Error, or just well-hidden?

... maybe behind the girl with the doll, judging from the extra beige colored arm coming from her side?

It looks like the girl with doll is sitting on Uncle Thirden's shoulders, obscuring the second twin.

[King of Nowhere]

"lots of things worth doing are not painless" is a pretty good badass boast. I must use it somewhere.

[woweedd]

It certainly is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).

Bold emphasis mine.
Thank you! Failed my Spot check there. Sadly, it still doesn't explain what happens if the thrall is destroyed.

[Goblin_Priest]

Thank you! Failed my Spot check there. Sadly, it still doesn't explain what happens if the thrall is destroyed.

Yea, to be honest, I have no idea how to interpret that statement. Are the slaves under the master's control directly or the slave's? If the slaver slave dies, do they go to his control or none? If he dies, do the slaver slaves remain in control of their slaves?

The first half of the sentence seems to suggest that the new slaves belong to the one who immediately sired them. The second half of it seems to suggest that slaves can be used as proxies by the master to get more slaves for himself.

[Jasdoif]

Which reminds me one of vampires' ridiculous weaknesses: aren't they unable to enter a building unless invited in?Generally yes. Doesn't apply to public places though, and dominating an authority figure to get an invitation is a fairly straightforward option.


Thank you! Failed my Spot check there. Sadly, it still doesn't explain what happens if the thrall is destroyed.I think it does, actually: a thrall is enslaved until the vampire that spawned it is destroyed (or is voluntarily freed), and a former thrall can't be enslaved again.

Even if a direct transfer of mastery (Masterdom? Mastership?) were implied, the situation that would call for a "thrall of a thrall" structure would almost certainly be the HD cap on how many enslaved spawn a vampire can have at once; HPoH would end up over capacity and not be able to keep them all under his control, especially if his stand-in at the Godsmoot is still enslaved, and have to leave some of them freed.

[Samzat]

What is with the exarch and ensuring things follow the proper role?

[Chei]

Aw, Durkon's ordainment. That's nice to see. Also, that it physically pains him if he doesn't give up his memories willingly sucks to hear.

I get the feeling we're going to see Durkon's mom. I wonder if the vampire is up for a little Regenerate?

[danielxcutter]

Good catch guys. That makes sense.

Also the Ex-arch remains comedy gold. "Do you want to be a wall? Is that it? Do your job, you disobedient ingress!!

[Mandor]

Greg: "I don't understand why you would continue to put yourself in agony during what little time you have left as a discrete consciousness."

That's a fairly disturbing line, actually. What.... happens.... to Durkon if it takes too long? I just assumed Durkon's soul is Durkon's soul, he may be housed / imprisioned for the long haul, but ... does he actually get.... Unmade? Absorbed? Nullified? In some manner if enough time passes?

Malack talked about the shaman whose body he inherited in terms of a dead-and-gone other, but I'd assumed that was just Malack speaking territorially about the whole affair.

[EDIT: sigh, yes, I suppose I should actually READ the threads before chipping in my $0.02 on a matter several people have already pointed out... but jeez, where's the fun in THAT? :smallsmile:]

[Hiro Quester]

I love the image of Durkon's Mother in the audience, crying tears of pride.

A door is doing its job perfectly if it prevents ingress by those who are unwelcome.

I wonder why these new vampire spawn, who were part of the Creed of the Stone and obviously still have some spells left prepared (one casts dispel magic) don't have at least one stone shape prepared among them, to go in through a wall instead.

[woweedd]

What is with the exarch and ensuring things follow the proper role?
He's a Cleric of Earth, why wouldn't he be a bit rigid? Perhaps even hard-headed?

[dtilque]

So Greg agrees that they don't need to unseal the temple door. Why was it important then? Because they expected their targets to gather in the temple and they planned to stake it out so they could pounce and Dominate everyone?

I don't think the Council will meet at the temple. It's where Durkula wanted to attack the Order.


Their vampire spirits could easily decide to eschew Hel and worship the dark energy instead.


Never occured to me that anyone would worship a cosmological force, but I guess one is allowed to worship anything. So you think anyone will worship dark matter? Neutrinos? The strong nuclear force?

[Doug Lampert]

I really have to wonder how that inner dialogue goes for evil souls.

Fiend: Soon, all your sins shall be mine, all your virtues corrupted.
Soul: Bitch, I am all sin. Soon, you will be just like me, with fangs.
Fiend: Er, just like you...
Soul: Me... me, me, me.
Fiend: Me too.
Fiend: Ah, how cute, you get to WATCH HELPLESSLY as I do all the things you wanted to do and get all the pleasure of doing them. Being a passive and helpless observer will be so pleasant for you I'm sure!

Evil people don't simply want evil things to happen, evil is not one big happy family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). Evil is not a team where you are happy if your team is doing well.

Evil people want things that benefit them or their cause to happen badly enough that they don't care about the consequences to others. The vampire's evil may not be the same as the soul's evil, and even if it is, benefiting the vampire doesn't benefit the soul. Why would the soul be any happier that the vampire spirit is also evil? It's still a spirit that has you trapped in your own dead body and that's abusing you for as long as your soul lasts. Screw liking that just because there are some similarities between the soul and the vampire. That probably just makes it worse.

[woweedd]

I don't think the Council will meet at the temple. It's where Durkula wanted to attack the Order.



Never occured to me that anyone would worship a cosmological force, but I guess one is allowed to worship anything. So you think anyone will worship dark matter? Neutrinos? The strong nuclear force?
What are those? Everyone know the universe is made from the four basic elements: Fire, Water, Earth, and Air!:smalltongue:

[woweedd]

Fiend: Ah, how cute, you get to WATCH HELPLESSLY as I do all the things you wanted to do and get all the pleasure of doing them. Being a passive and helpless observer will be so pleasant for you I'm sure!

Evil people don't simply want evil things to happen, evil is not one big happy family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). Evil is not a team where you are happy if your team is doing well.

Evil people want things that benefit them or their cause to happen badly enough that they don't care about the consequences to others. The vampire's evil may not be the same as the soul's evil, and even if it is, benefiting the vampire doesn't benefit the soul. Why would the soul be any happier that the vampire spirit is also evil? It's still a spirit that has you trapped in your own dead body and that's abusing you for as long as your soul lasts. Screw liking that just because there are some similarities between the soul and the vampire. That probably just makes it worse.
Plus, hey, it's entirely possible for even the most depraved individuals to have things they care about that the vampire may hurt. I mean, even Belkar has at least one creature he cares about. Vampire Belker would probably wiring Mr. Scruffy's neck.

[danielxcutter]

I really have to wonder how that inner dialogue goes for evil souls.

Fiend: Soon, all your sins shall be mine, all your virtues corrupted.
Soul: Bitch, I am all sin. Soon, you will be just like me, with fangs.
Fiend: Er, just like you...
Soul: Me... me, me, me.
Fiend: Me too.


Fiend: Ah, how cute, you get to WATCH HELPLESSLY as I do all the things you wanted to do and get all the pleasure of doing them. Being a passive and helpless observer will be so pleasant for you I'm sure!

Can I quote these?

[ManuelSacha]

Both prophecies about Durkon are about to be fulfilled, not just the SoD one.

[woweedd]

Both prophecies about Durkon are about to be fulfilled, not just the SoD one.
..Are you just now getting that?

[dtilque]

What are those? Everyone know the universe is made from the four basic elements: Fire, Water, Earth, and Air!:smalltongue:

Some of us got passing grades in Chem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html). Physics, too.

[woweedd]

Some of us got passing grades in Chem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html). Physics, too.
And some of us majored in Lit and became Tarquin. You take your pick of extremist, theoretically-Good-intentioned LE charecters.

[TheNecrocomicon]

"Door, what are you good for?"
"Aggravating vampires."

Door, huh! (North Gods, y'all!) What is it good for? Aggravatin' vampires!

[The MunchKING]

I just noticed all the angry priests in the back trying to shush Durkon's friends and family who are cheering him. Nice touch.

I was kind of surprised Thor's Clergy aren't the type to condone loud celebration during a worship service.

[8BitNinja]

This left me with a few questions.

What sect of the dwarvish religion uses the wearing of yamakas?

How big is Durkon's family? He has a cousin, but is that the only one?

When do clerics start their duties?

[ref]

These things don't know Roy has a key.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Door: 1

Scumbag Vampire Murderers Who Want To Hurt Door's Masters: 0

[Keltest]

This left me with a few questions.

What sect of the dwarvish religion uses the wearing of yamakas?

How big is Durkon's family? He has a cousin, but is that the only one?

When do clerics start their duties?

I believe that is intended to be a helmet of some sort, consistent with his wearing of chainmail.

[keybounce]

I find myself wondering what a HHGTTG door would say in response. If it had Marvin's personality instead of that ultra-cheerful one.

I am a door. Do you know what a door's purpose, and function is? We let people in or out. But we have a choice. We are not helpless, oh sure, you go in, you go out. If that were the case, we might as well not be there, and just have an open doorway arch. No, we are here, so we get to decide. And I have decided. You do not get to enter today. Not today, not tomorrow.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I find myself wondering what a HHGTTG door would say in response. If it had Marvin's personality instead of that ultra-cheerful one.

I am a door. Do you know what a door's purpose, and function is? We let people in or out. But we have a choice. We are not helpless, oh sure, you go in, you go out. If that were the case, we might as well not be there, and just have an open doorway arch. No, we are here, so we get to decide. And I have decided. You do not get to enter today. Not today, not tomorrow.

Eddie the door. I always had a soft spot for him, unreliable fool that he is.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I believe that is intended to be a helmet of some sort, consistent with his wearing of chainmail.

Perhaps a magic helmet (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kH0Bag0akc)? (Would need a spear to go with it, though ...)

[Psyren]

"Door, what are you good for?"
"Aggravating vampires."

You'd think of all the undead creatures to understand how doors work, vampires would be it...

Actually, that just makes me wonder - even if the door were to open, how would they get in? Nobody would be inviting them. He was explicitly invited on board the Mechane and into the Godsmoot, but clearly not here. (Durkon is in fact free to come home, but Greg left before hearing that.) The teleport orb may have circumvented that restriction for getting them inside the complex, but it's been used up.

[anonynos]

Fiend: Ah, how cute, you get to WATCH HELPLESSLY as I do all the things you wanted to do and get all the pleasure of doing them. Being a passive and helpless observer will be so pleasant for you I'm sure!
.

While true that team evil isn't one happy family, this also seems to suppose that the vampire fiend thing is there to punish the soul. In a situation where the soul is already evil, and perhaps a willing participant in the depravity, the conversation is probably a lot more like...

Soul:What the what?
Fiend: MUHAH! I'm here to corrupt your virtues! Oh... wait... I see you are already corrupted... hmm. Well, this will be easier.
Soul: Oh, I'm a vampire now? This is weird... I didn't know it worked like this... so like, what now?
Fiend: Share your memories with me so that we may merge together and get on with this evil business.
Soul: Oh. Okay... lets get it on.
*Barry White starts playing*

[ManuelSacha]

..Are you just now getting that?
Rude.
I was just adding up to a pre-existant discussion between people who (through not fault of their own) were "just now getting" to know about the SoD prophecy, because they never read that book, and others who informed them of it without mentioning the second prophecy.
My comment was there for the sake of completion.
But congratulations for knowing all of it already.

[Cerlis]

You'd think of all the undead creatures to understand how doors work, vampires would be it...

Actually, that just makes me wonder - even if the door were to open, how would they get in? Nobody would be inviting them. He was explicitly invited on board the Mechane and into the Godsmoot, but clearly not here. (Durkon is in fact free to come home, but Greg left before hearing that.) The teleport orb may have circumvented that restriction for getting them inside the complex, but it's been used up.

i think across most media vampires need to be invited in private homes. the Mechane is not a home, the only "inside" is some cargo holds with a few latches. Of all the buildings out there churches and businesses are open to the public. in regards to magic one would find that any church being holy ground would be enough to deter most.

also while the insiraption for this story is D&D its not limited to it. However the genre does depict opposing forces (good, evil, stone, air ect) as being a contest of power. any undead stronger than a holy place would simply incur a disadvantage. depictions of Instantly turning to dust or whatever via getting on holy ground are from the horror genre.

obviously this is all theoretical. main point i guess it that those wards are probably the only thing keeping any evil entity from prancing in.

[Aeliren]

I think the future High Priestess of Thor is present at Durkon's ceremony. No scar, but the hair colour and light highlights in her hair seem to be the same.

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Thanks. Absolutely brilliant.

Incidentally, I am in the strip today. I am the old, fat, bearded, grumpy-looking dwarf with a cane sitting in the front seats. Perfect!

:smallsmile:
:smallbiggrin:
:smalltongue:

[137beth]

I honestly have no idea what deception Durkon is going for here. I can't wait to see how this Round turns out in the finished book.

[Jasdoif]

Actually, that just makes me wonder - even if the door were to open, how would they get in? Nobody would be inviting them. He was explicitly invited on board the Mechane and into the Godsmoot, but clearly not here. (Durkon is in fact free to come home, but Greg left before hearing that.) The teleport orb may have circumvented that restriction for getting them inside the complex, but it's been used up.Offhand guesses of possibilities....
If the sanctuary is normally open to the public, the exemption for public places would apply.
If holding a runestone is sufficient to justify entry, in the same vein as Roy bearing one is supposed to, HPoH could possibly enter on that basis.
If an off-panel victim with adequate authority was dominated into giving permission before being killed, we wouldn't see it.
Perhaps HPoH simply hadn't thought that far ahead, and expected to dominate someone on the other side of the door.

[Lordchoculla]

Hey, don't be hard on Gontor*. Dude was literally born yesterday.

Yeah... poor dude... :smallbiggrin:

[Lordchoculla]

I think the thing is that the temple was 'remodeled' after the initiation ceremony, in a way that removed or destroyed the wards.

I also suspect that the remodeling that occurred by Durkon's hand, and it was the reason for his exile.

My much more specific guess is that super-troll came back, and Durkon dropped the temple on it, in sort of a call-back to his father. Which means that Durkon saved the city, but in so doing committed a crime that demanded his exile.


Hmmm... my guess would be that the old highpriest saw that Durkon would bring destruction to the dwarven kingdom so to protect the kingdom, Durkon was expelled. However, that expulsion directly is what makes this destruction possible - if Durkon had not been expelled, he would not have been vampirized and thus would not have returned to bring doom and gloom.

Ironic, I think.

Just a thought.

[White Magic]

He's a Cleric of Earth, why wouldn't he be a bit rigid? Perhaps even hard-headed?

I imagine each of those three Earth Clerics (and all the ones back at the mountain) tied up giving just as much battle as Durkon is giving to Un*durkon. They're in for a rocky ride.

[Lordchoculla]

we know exactly why Durkon was exiled.

The High priest of Odin got a prophecy that "When next durkon returned home, he would bring death and destruction." He was banished out of fear that the next time he went grocery shopping or something equally meaningless, he would "return home" and spark doom somehow, but he wasn't told the real reason for his banishing.

Ah. Ninja'd. And with quotes even. Nice!

[Anymage]

While true that team evil isn't one happy family, this also seems to suppose that the vampire fiend thing is there to punish the soul. In a situation where the soul is already evil, and perhaps a willing participant in the depravity, the conversation is probably a lot more like...

Soul:What the what?
Fiend: MUHAH! I'm here to corrupt your virtues! Oh... wait... I see you are already corrupted... hmm. Well, this will be easier.
Soul: Oh, I'm a vampire now? This is weird... I didn't know it worked like this... so like, what now?
Fiend: Share your memories with me so that we may merge together and get on with this evil business.
Soul: Oh. Okay... lets get it on.
*Barry White starts playing*

At least early on, it would depend entirely on how well the original was interested in cooperation. Tarquin would probably be quite happy to play along with another evil, narratively obsessed character. Even as a backseat driver. Belkar, OTOH, would hate anything that impinged on his freedom and ability to get lost in the moment of slaughtering things.

There's the question of how long it'd take for the consciousnesses to merge into a single entity, if that happens at all. But that's trying to assume metaphysics with only the smallest amount of information to work on.


Hmmm... my guess would be that the old highpriest saw that Durkon would bring destruction to the dwarven kingdom so to protect the kingdom, Durkon was expelled. However, that expulsion directly is what makes this destruction possible - if Durkon had not been expelled, he would not have been vampirized and thus would not have returned to bring doom and gloom.

Ironic, I think.

Just a thought.

Prophecies tend to come with a good dose of irony. By their very nature.

Of course, prophecies are also a devil to try and get around. Anyone with a lick of sense would know that the exile would just kick the can down the road a bit.

[B. Dandelion]

I think the future High Priestess of Thor is present at Durkon's ceremony. No scar, but the hair colour and light highlights in her hair seem to be the same.

Well-spotted! Looking again I also see that she's the only other robed cleric in attendance to be openly smiling at the ceremony -- all the others either have a neutral expression or look outright annoyed at the noise Durkon's friends are making.

So of all the clerics present, the one we know will rise highest in the church of Thor is the one least perturbed by a little raucous celebrating. Yeah, that seems about right! :smallbiggrin:

[Manty5]

Well-spotted! Looking again I also see that she's the only other robed cleric in attendance to be openly smiling at the ceremony -- all the others either have a neutral expression or look outright annoyed at the noise Durkon's friends are making.

So of all the clerics present, the one we know will rise highest in the church of Thor is the one least perturbed by a little raucous celebrating. Yeah, that seems about right! :smallbiggrin:

She may be looking at the high priest worshipfully. I think this compares well with the scenes of young Bandanna watching Julio and deciding that she was going to do what it takes to be a captain.

[Blatt]

It's not clear what Durkula saw that he didn't like. Giant statue of Thor? Fifty clerics in one room including the High Priest? Writing on the floor?

And the temple isn't even the objective; it's just something to get through to reach wherever the council meets.

[Cazero]

Offhand guesses of possibilities....
If the sanctuary is normally open to the public, the exemption for public places would apply.
If holding a runestone is sufficient to justify entry, in the same vein as Roy bearing one is supposed to, HPoH could possibly enter on that basis.
If an off-panel victim with adequate authority was dominated into giving permission before being killed, we wouldn't see it.
Perhaps HPoH simply hadn't thought that far ahead, and expected to dominate someone on the other side of the door.
And most likely of all :

That restriction doesn't apply in OotSworld.


What kind of media do you guys watch? When was the last time this rule was enforced?

[factotum]

Why is Durkula hiding from the other vampires that he's asking his imprisoned soul for more information about this temple? They presumably know exactly how this whole vampirisation thing works, being vampires themselves...seems odd that he'd dissemble in this situation rather than just saying straight out he's asking Durkon for a memory.

[Unoriginal]

"That´s definitively a use fer it". Just me, or does it seem Durkon has his own reason to show Durkula this particular memory?
I guess as a Thor priest he visited the temple several other times. Maybe there were some new added features not shown in this scene (like extra wards)?

I'm guessing that there was actually MORE wards for the ceremony, so Durkon selected this memory to mislead the vampire.

On another subject, it's interesting Greg had partially chosen this location because he found it fun to battle there.


Why is Durkula hiding from the other vampires that he's asking his imprisoned soul for more information about this temple? They presumably know exactly how this whole vampirisation thing works, being vampires themselves...seems odd that he'd dissemble in this situation rather than just saying straight out he's asking Durkon for a memory.


He's not really hiding it, but I suppose he doesn't want to look like a fool for having been tricked by the soul of the body he inhabits.

[B. Dandelion]

She may be looking at the high priest worshipfully. I think this compares well with the scenes of young Bandanna watching Julio and deciding that she was going to do what it takes to be a captain.

Considering that that is almost certainly Hurak ordaining Durkon... I would actually prefer for this not to be the case.

I mean maybe she could have (or have had) a period of disillusionment with the guy or something, but I'd rather just see it as subtle evidence that she's, oh, a bit kinder and more patient than most. That would point to her being a likely improvement from her predecessor, who treated Durkon and his family so poorly.

[goto124]

The green-haired lady at the back trying to shush the children. Love the splash panels!

[woweedd]

Rude.
I was just adding up to a pre-existant discussion between people who (through not fault of their own) were "just now getting" to know about the SoD prophecy, because they never read that book, and others who informed them of it without mentioning the second prophecy.
My comment was there for the sake of completion.
But congratulations for knowing all of it already.
Wasn't trying to be rude. I was just confused. Sorry if I came across that way.

[Mad Humanist]

I think the future High Priestess of Thor is present at Durkon's ceremony. No scar, but the hair colour and light highlights in her hair seem to be the same.

A coincidence I suspect. She's sitting on the family side. That would make her related to Durkon, which would have completely changed the plot. She would immediately have known Durkon's name when his letter arrived. Also she does not look that similar.

[Ruck]

Prophecies tend to come with a good dose of irony. By their very nature.

Of course, prophecies are also a devil to try and get around. Anyone with a lick of sense would know that the exile would just kick the can down the road a bit.
This particular irony goes all the way back to at least Oedipus Rex, although it's no less effective for it.


And most likely of all :

That restriction doesn't apply in OotSworld.


What kind of media do you guys watch? When was the last time this rule was enforced?
Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff Angel both adhered to the rule about entry.


Why is Durkula hiding from the other vampires that he's asking his imprisoned soul for more information about this temple? They presumably know exactly how this whole vampirisation thing works, being vampires themselves...seems odd that he'd dissemble in this situation rather than just saying straight out he's asking Durkon for a memory.
I didn't read it as hiding anything, really. Just a little bit of villain flair, maybe even just for the reader's benefit.

[Themrys]

I just noticed all the angry priests in the back trying to shush Durkon's friends and family who are cheering him. Nice touch.

Looking at the scene, ALL the priests except the woman in the front look unhappy.

Is this just the default expression of dwarves, or is there something more to it?

[Wowlock]

At this point...I will be glad to see those vampires turn to ash by the end.

[Quebbster]

Considering we already know the scenes in Durkon's mind happens at the speed of thought (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html), I can't help but wonder why Greg wasted time explaining for his pack what he was going to to. The whole page in Durkon's mind probably passed by in less time than that one speech balloon.

[Laurana]

Lovely splash panel! Also, I'm highly amused by Gonthor* and highly intrigued by Durkon's ploy in showing that particular memory.

[warmachine]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

[Millstone85]

Evil people don't simply want evil things to happen, evil is not one big happy family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). Evil is not a team where you are happy if your team is doing well.

Evil people want things that benefit them or their cause to happen badly enough that they don't care about the consequences to others.Some evil people, at least in D&D, do simply want evil things to happen. They might even proclaim their cause as being the cause of Evil.

But that's not what I was talking about.


The vampire's evil may not be the same as the soul's evil, and even if it is, benefiting the vampire doesn't benefit the soul.The vampire begins its existence as "your worst day, personified (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html)" and then progressively turns itself into an evil version of all that you were, by absorbing your very soul into itself. What is interesting about that premise is that the vampire's evil is the soul's evil, and eventually the two entities will become one. More of a digestion than a fusion, yes, but what if there is very little to digest? With a sufficiently evil soul, all that would be missing in the final product would be their last remaining scruples. So it is possible the soul would embrace the change.


Plus, hey, it's entirely possible for even the most depraved individuals to have things they care about that the vampire may hurt. I mean, even Belkar has at least one creature he cares about. Vampire Belker would probably wiring Mr. Scruffy's neck.If Malack is any indication, even vampires have nurturing instincts, though it makes them no less evil. I do wonder how vampire Belkar would react to Mr. Scruffy if it did not see the cat as a potential alignment-shift catalyzer.


Can I quote these?I would rather you did not. Those two quotes in your signature would make it look like Doug shut me up. And if you think he did, then your signature would be all the more rude to me.

[Quebbster]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate.
Good thing it is not based on any sort of science then. Apparently this is how memories work in OOTS-World. Probably because it looks better in the webcomic that way.

[Werbaer]

How big is Durkon's family? He has a cousin, but is that the only one?
It's just Durkon and his mother (and in the past, his grandfather).

The other adults (Uncle Thirden, Uncle Hoskin, Aunt Shirra, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19437395&postcount=67) Uncle Kandro, (yet unnamed) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19438080&postcount=111)) became friends with his mother right before he was born (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html).
The so-called cousins are not related to Durkon.

[Alcore]

Someone has anger issues :smallbiggrin:


Hmmm.... I only see wards on the archway leading away. Though they could have covered some with the blue rug. And that old dwarf looks grumpy; dwelling on his future stay in Hel no doubt :smallwink:

[Lheticus]

I wonder, is the Giant TRYING to make a new version of the "stop oppressing my culture/suppressing our rupture" meme? Because I think he likely succeeded with "Do your job, you disobedient ingress!"

[Cazero]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff Angel both adhered to the rule about entry.
And I presume from the name of the first show that somehow the vampires weren't jokes.
But considering how that particular vampire weakness has no strong theme or symbolism going for it and is a real stopper for an entity that needs to murder people to live, it really is a weird restriction to put on yourself when you want to write vampires as threats.


Looking at the scene, ALL the priests except the woman in the front look unhappy.

Is this just the default expression of dwarves, or is there something more to it?
I suggest you look in a mirror and notice how you're probably not smiling. That expression you take for a frown is the default of the human face, not an expression of disatisfaction or unhappiness.

[Quebbster]

I keep being reminded of this old joke:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/03/0e/4d/030e4db243b1b176ee7f45538baa9893.jpg

[Unoriginal]

When was the last time this rule was enforced?

Not sure if it was the last time, but it was a plot point in an Adventure Time episode not too long ago.

Also, DnD 5e's vampires are unable to enter a home without being invited, too.


For a more personal anecdote:

A few years ago, when me and my old group were playing Pathfinder, the DM had the house we were in surrounded by a large gang of vampires. We were in "oh s**t" mode for a bit... until we realized that those vampires couldn't come in without being invited. Leading the head vampire trying to tell us to get out while we laugh at her face.

Then this happen:



Head Vampire: *taunt/threaten the PCs in a way everyone know won't be able to affect us*

One of the players, in-character: "Oh yeah? Why don't you come here and tell this to our face?"

Cue all the other players looking at the guy with the most flabbergasted expression ever as the DM grins.

[Quibblicious]

Increased use of half-page splash panels, mostly.

Well, it looks magnificent.

Thanks for all the hard work.

Q

[Unoriginal]

And I presume from the name of the first show that somehow the vampires weren't jokes.

Most of the vampires were mooks (or elite mook) compared to the super-powered protagonist, but for the average human they were more or less unbeatable and even the well-trained humans tended to have a tough fight against them (and had to rely on the vampires' weaknesses to do the kill). Several vampires were powerful enough to be deadly threats for whole seasons, tough.



But considering how that particular vampire weakness has no strong theme or symbolism going for it

Are you kidding?



and is a real stopper for an entity that needs to murder people to live, it really is a weird restriction to put on yourself when you want to write vampires as threats.

As it turns out, very powerful beings having some conditional limitations often increase the tension and helps the direction of how a scene goes.



I suggest you look in a mirror and notice how you're probably not smiling. That expression you take for a frown is the default of the human face, not an expression of disatisfaction or unhappiness.

In OoTS's artstyle, the default is not a frown. And most of those dwarves clearly look at the family with annoyance.

Unless you meant the dwarves who are just looking at the ceremony with a neutral expression that leaves the mouth's corners slightly dropping, but I wouldn't call that a frown.

[Millstone85]

And I presume from the name of the first show that somehow the vampires weren't jokes.
But considering how that particular vampire weakness has no strong theme or symbolism going for it and is a real stopper for an entity that needs to murder people to live, it really is a weird restriction to put on yourself when you want to write vampires as threats.I remember Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or maybe Angel, developing a bit on that rule. If a house had been left uninhabited, or only inhabited by beings without a soul, for a long time, then it was no longer warded against vampires. This a power souls have over the place they make their home, even if they do not realize it.

You could still ruin it all just by having a doormat with "Welcome" on it, or something like that.

Now, I don't remember Buffy's vampires having a problem with crossing running water or counting fallen grains (except for one who already had that OCD as a human).

[Goblin_Priest]

I love the image of Durkon's Mother in the audience, crying tears of pride.

A door is doing its job perfectly if it prevents ingress by those who are unwelcome.

I wonder why these new vampire spawn, who were part of the Creed of the Stone and obviously still have some spells left prepared (one casts dispel magic) don't have at least one stone shape prepared among them, to go in through a wall instead.

That depends on how high level they were. Under 5HD and they become vanilla vampire spawns with none of the abilities they had in life.

Also, wasn't there a line about how Durkon* waited for them to have used up all of their (high level) spell slots before acting against them?


Why is Durkula hiding from the other vampires that he's asking his imprisoned soul for more information about this temple? They presumably know exactly how this whole vampirisation thing works, being vampires themselves...seems odd that he'd dissemble in this situation rather than just saying straight out he's asking Durkon for a memory.

They are slaves, they lack a free will, and likely lack a negative energy soul thingny equivalent to Durkon*. There was a clear personality difference between vampire slave Durkon and vampire Durkon*, so I'm thinking the latter simply did not yet exist yet during the slave period.




Then this happen:



Cue all the other players looking at the guy with the most flabbergasted expression ever as the DM grins.

That's pretty hilarious.

[Unoriginal]

That's pretty hilarious.

Thanks. There were some memorable and spectacular instances of idiocy, in my old group.

Like that time that low-level sorcerer PC, completely alone attacked a Death Knight whose guards he was trying to fool... with a dagger. When he had his spells ready to use.

Or the time a PC who had charged at the hobgoblin chief on his own, before fleeing through burning benches, had to be reminded that moats didn't need to have a chief to kill the people who jumped into them from a wall while critically injured.

[i6uuaq]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

I'm not too sure about this. There are credible reports of some individuals who remember every day of their life in startling detail.

One plausible explanation is that some unknown condition gives them super-memory, but it seems more plausible that the memories are already there, and that the condition allows you to access them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

[citation needed]. I do look forward to seeing a paper by the name "Memory recall of previous life by Vampiric Spirits". The control group alone must have been hellish to set up.

GW

[goodpeople25]

A coincidence I suspect. She's sitting on the family side. That would make her related to Durkon, which would have completely changed the plot. She would immediately have known Durkon's name when his letter arrived. Also she does not look that similar.
She's sitting on the side where Durkon's family (and that dosen't equal relation anyway, I believe they're mostly unrealted by blood to Durkon) is sitting that's not quite the same thing. There are more people wearing priest robes in the front and back rows as well. Plus from my experience in churches it makes sense that only Durkon's immediate family (his mom and pretty sure that's his grandfather) were allowed in front while the rest were church related and could have had something to do during the ceremony. So yeah I think the people wearing priest robes are priests unrelated to Durkon outside the priesthood, not the type to speculate on identity though.


This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.
Pretty sure taking one example and declaring it inaccurate due to data that absolutely does not apply to all cases is unscientific. (As in scientific principles) And you also know how this "inaccuracy" could easily be resolved (well kinda I think needing a job to remember it is going too far, but knowing about them in a capacity beyond them just being there once) on your part, but you choose to think it wouldn't apply. Also why do you choose what is of emotional significance? The mundane parts of the church might be quite emotional considering his exile.

Oh and the whole vampire and magic thing might apply.

[Kardwill]

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

I'm one of those annoying guys who will whine "but orbital mechanics don't work that way!" when watching a SciFi movie, but since we're reading a comic where a vampire evil spirit is torturing the soul of the non-human corpse it possesses in order to bypass the magical defenses of the temple of Thor... Maybe, just once, I'll let the scientific inaccuracies slide :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

Fiend: Share your memories with me so that we may merge together and get on with this evil business.
Soul: Oh. Okay... lets get it on.
*Barry White starts playing* Snort.

if Durkon had not been expelled, he would not have been vampirized and thus would not have returned to bring doom and gloom. If one is going to borrow, borrow from the classics.
Oedipus, Greek mythology, Greek Tragedy.
Prophecy: he'll grow up to kill his dad
Action: get rid of him (but he survives)
Doom: he meets his dad on the road and, not knowing it's his dad, kills him in a fight/disagreement.
Prophecy fulfilled. (And yeah, he marries his mom).
From Britannica.com (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Oedipus-Greek-mythology): (summarized)

Laius, king of Thebes, was warned by an oracle that his son would slay him. When his wife, Jocasta bore a son, he had the baby exposed (a form of infanticide) on Cithaeron. A shepherd took pity on the infant, who was adopted by King Polybus of Corinth and his wife. He was brought up as their son. In early manhood Oedipus visited Delphi and upon learning that he was fated to kill his father and marry his mother, he resolved never to return to Corinth. Traveling toward Thebes, he encountered Laius, who provoked a quarrel in which Oedipus killed him. Continuing on his way, Oedipus found Thebes plagued by the Sphinx, who put a riddle to all passersby and destroyed those who could not answer. Oedipus solved the riddle, and the Sphinx killed herself. In reward, he received the throne of Thebes and the hand of the widowed queen, his mother, Jocasta. They had four children: Eteocles, Polyneices, Antigone, and Ismene. Later, when the truth became known, Jocasta committed suicide, and Oedipus after blinding himself, went into exile, accompanied by Antigone and Ismene, leaving his brother-in-law Creon as regent.

[Cazero]

Are you kidding?
Being unable to enter somewhere without being invited makes you polite and respectful, wich is at complete odds with the usual characterization of vampires as villains. If there is actual symbolism making them eeeevil for respecting my boundaries, I'm not seeing it.


Unless you meant the dwarves who are just looking at the ceremony with a neutral expression that leaves the mouth's corners slightly dropping, but I wouldn't call that a frown.
Yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html), that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html) is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html) what (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html) I (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html) was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html) going (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0728.html).
I litteraly picked pages at random to make that point right now.

[hamishspence]

Also she does not look that similar.


She's sitting on the side where Durkon's family (and that dosen't equal relation anyway, I believe they're mostly unrealted by blood to Durkon) is sitting that's not quite the same thing. There are more people wearing priest robes in the front and back rows as well. Plus from my experience in churches it makes sense that only Durkon's immediate family (his mom and pretty sure that's his grandfather) were allowed in front while the rest were church related and could have had something to do during the ceremony.

My guess is that the clergy of Thor are seated by rank - most important at the front (except for the High Priest, who's performing the ceremony).

Thus, it makes sense for the next in line to be High Priest, to be up at the front.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html

The hair color seems like a close match.

[Keltest]

Being unable to enter somewhere without being invited makes you polite and respectful, wich is at complete odds with the usual characterization of vampires as villains. If there is actual symbolism making them eeeevil for respecting my boundaries, I'm not seeing it.

My recall is that it was originally a facet of their supreme OCD. It wasn't that they literally were physically unable to because of a magic barrier or something, simply that they were unable to bring themselves to force entry into a home where they weren't invited to.

[goodpeople25]

My guess is that the clergy of Thor are seated by rank - most important at the front (except for the High Priest, who's performing the ceremony).

Thus, it makes sense for the next in line to be High Priest, to be up at the front.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html

The hair color seems like a close match.
Yeah I was thinking the higher ranked (and/or relevant, like being heavily involved in training or the like) would be at the front, (though not necessarily ordered all the way to the back but that's not really relevant) combined with my point of making it easier to get up and speak if that was a part of it. But yeah I'm leaning towards the side of it being her, just not the type confident in his abilities to recognize people in different images or speculate that much.

[Kardwill]

I remember Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or maybe Angel, developing a bit on that rule. If a house had been left uninhabited, or only inhabited by beings without a soul, for a long time, then it was no longer warded against vampires. This a power souls have over the place they make their home, even if they do not realize it.

You could still ruin it all just by having a doormat with "Welcome" on it, or something like that.


Ans as a narrative tool, it's quite handy. It means the evil bad guy that can turn into smoke won't enter your house to kill you in your sleep... But it also mean that nice stranger asking for a shelter from the storm might be an undead horror trying to slaughter your whole family. That gives a nice paranoid mood, with villagers hiding behind their doorstep duringt the night, and give a small chance to the hero (until he accepts the invitation from the nice baron to eat and sleep in the old castle, of course. Then things get interesting ^^)
It allows all kind of ruse and loopholes for a smart undead to show he's still the master around there, allows stories about what is a threshold and what is not, etc...
A very nice narrative tool, and a pretty small chink into the armor of one of the most overpowered critters ever invented by mankind. Buffy/angel played with the idea for some of their stories (like what happens when a "nice vampire" you invited in turns evil in a later episode), and I like it :)


As for the "powered by souls" idea... Dresden files also played with the concept : In the setting, Homes (personnal places where people and families live) are a powerful defense against the forces of the supernatural. A hotel room won't have a Threshold, and a student-appartment changing inhabitant every other year will be a wet paperbag, but the house you inherited from your granma and where you've been raising your kids? Unless an invitation has been extended, it's a fortress that will have its own defensive magic, stop a spell cold, protect a ghost from the devastating energy of sunrise, and block fallen angels and vampires in their tracks, or at least rip their powers from them so that they're as weak as any human.
Which is why the vampire will send human mercenaries with flamethrowers and Molotov cocktails to flush you out of your home if he really wants your hide. Nobody said that live is fair ^^

[hamishspence]

My recall is that it was originally a facet of their supreme OCD. It wasn't that they literally were physically unable to because of a magic barrier or something, simply that they were unable to bring themselves to force entry into a home where they weren't invited to.

TV Tropes suggests it debuted with the Dracula novel:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MustBeInvited

with it not being a thing for Varney and Lord Ruthven. Not sure if it cropped up much in folklore.

[FlawedParadigm]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

Clearly your definition of science doesn't account for eidetic memory. As someone who has one, I can tell you I remember details at a photo-quality level when it comes to any important days or events in my life, including what everyone present was wearing, how their hair was done, et cetera. I had a job at one point with 400+ employees and knew every last one of my co-workers by name, spanning at least six different cultures of names. Now it hasn't been established that either dwarves in general or Durkon in particular has such a memory, but then the converse hasn't been established either. As Durkon is unmarried, I imagine this would count as probably the most important day of his life. I could easily see him remember every detail.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Being unable to enter somewhere without being invited makes you polite and respectful, wich is at complete odds with the usual characterization of vampires as villains. If there is actual symbolism making them eeeevil for respecting my boundaries, I'm not seeing it.

It has to do with the rituals regarding hospitality, backed and enforced by the household spirits. It isn't a specifically vampire thing (unlike their vulnerability to healing herbs such as garlic), but applies to a lot of creepy crawlies.

If you recall your mythology, the most powerful deities are associated with hospitality (for the Hellenes, Zeus and Hestia, who was so busy with it she rarely bothered with the rest of the pantheon).

[Alcore]

I remember Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or maybe Angel, developing a bit on that rule. If a house had been left uninhabited, or only inhabited by beings without a soul, for a long time, then it was no longer warded against vampires. This a power souls have over the place they make their home, even if they do not realize it.

You could still ruin it all just by having a doormat with "Welcome" on it, or something like that.

Now, I don't remember Buffy's vampires having a problem with crossing running water or counting fallen grains (except for one who already had that OCD as a human).Was a fan of both for the first three seasons of each.


A business does not count (sacred ground too, oddly), even if someone lives there full time. Adverted in the movie (pikes vampire friend floating out his window complaining of thirst. This was an 'apartment' above pikes workplace) and again in angel (he walks into apartment buildings uninvited but can't enter an apartment). So what constitutes a business and home is nuanced.


As soon as owner(s) die protection ends. No known case of what happens if other humans are still hiding inside. Only remembering Angel or the occasional demon, who did not count. Angel is an obvious answer as to why


Cars might count. Cordelia invited Angel into her car. Angel turned evil and she feared he could take her car. When it was (re)warded later it was off screen. Cars were usually a method of movement but battle sites.


Once invited can't be uninvited. Special wards need to be placed.


Can't think of any more but i know there was more.

[137beth]

And most likely of all :

That restriction doesn't apply in OotSworld.


What kind of media do you guys watch? When was the last time this rule was enforced?

Well, since OOTS is sort-of-kind-of using D&D 3.5 rules,

They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, since OOTS is sort-of-kind-of using D&D 3.5 rules,

A better way of describing it is "it can be assumed that OotS follows D&D rules, until the canon shows otherwise". Given that vampires so far have stuck to the established rules (and when the rules have been broken - such as when they awoke at once without a coffin - it was due to external items and forces), such assumption is solid.

Grey Wolf

[Doug Lampert]

Can I quote these?

Feel free to quote me.

[LasVegasLawyer]

So, I see two rooms that are potentially responsive to Greg's order. The first is the sanctuary, where you can see a door in the back. The second is the hall adjacent to the sanctuary in panel #7. By starting his memory *before* he walked into the hall, Durkon may have convinced Greg the door opened into a dangerous, warded sanctuary, rather than a relatively unguarded hallway.

It may not matter in the least (Greg may have chosen not to enter specifically because the wards would make it difficult to defeat any clerics inside the sanctuary), but, well, Chekhov's Door, and all that.

[Themrys]

The vampire begins its existence as "your worst day, personified (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html)" and then progressively turns itself into an evil version of all that you were, by absorbing your very soul into itself. What is interesting about that premise is that the vampire's evil is the soul's evil, and eventually the two entities will become one. More of a digestion than a fusion, yes, but what if there is very little to digest? With a sufficiently evil soul, all that would be missing in the final product would be their last remaining scruples. So it is possible the soul would embrace the change.

What about people who never had a really bad day? Who are all sunshine and happyness and don't have much evil in their souls? Would they simply resist the vampirization process for longer, or would they possibly be able to resist it?

[Lord Torath]

What about people who never had a really bad day? Who are all sunshine and happiness and don't have much evil in their souls? Would they simply resist the vampirization process for longer, or would they possibly be able to resist it?It would be pleasant to think so.

They would still have a "least good" day, which is the same thing as a worst day. Also, the day they were attacked and killed by a vampire would probably be a pretty bad day in anyone's book.

[Kish]

Good thing it is not based on any sort of science then. Apparently this is how memories work in OOTS-World. Probably because it looks better in the webcomic that way.
More than that, work for dwarves, in a webcomic by an author who's explicitly mentioned disliking when nonhuman races are treated as human with purely cosmetic differences.

And I presume from the name of the first show that somehow the vampires weren't jokes.
But considering how that particular vampire weakness has no strong theme or symbolism going for it
The fact that you cannot see any symbolism in home being a sanctuary against a particular form of evil unless and until you invite that evil in does not mean such is not there.

What about people who never had a really bad day? Who are all sunshine and happyness and don't have much evil in their souls? Would they simply resist the vampirization process for longer, or would they possibly be able to resist it?
...given that anyone who never had a really bad day* is vastly less plausible than dwarves whose memories are movies, elves who don't reach half their adult growth until they've past thirties, or bloodsucking negative energy spirits, I'd say that's up to the author, who has the task of making the character in question anything close to believable.

*Subject to debate based on where one puts down the vague term "really," but I'll stick to my response for putting it down anywhere it makes sense to suggest anything unusual for the vampirization process.

[Keltest]

What about people who never had a really bad day? Who are all sunshine and happyness and don't have much evil in their souls? Would they simply resist the vampirization process for longer, or would they possibly be able to resist it?

They would probably be a really petty, small time vampire that runs around putting tape on the whiskers of kittens and playing pranks on old people in between consuming the blood of the innocent.

[pendell]

We interrupt this thread for an important health announcement.

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/b/be/God_kills_catgirl.gif/revision/latest?cb=20060605112731

The same applies to biology. At least, when it's argued vehemently as opposed to in fun.

Thank you for your attention.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[8BitNinja]

I believe that is intended to be a helmet of some sort, consistent with his wearing of chainmail.

It's a pretty small helmet. But I guess if it was magical it would provide ample defense

[hroþila]

It's a pretty small helmet. But I guess if it was magical it would provide ample defense
I always thought it represented something like this (https://www.battlemerchant.com/Helmets/Battle-ready-helmets/Secret-helmet-2-mm-steel::26328.html?language=en). Note that the High Priest of Thor is only seen wearing it when she's also wearing armour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html).

[Mr_Ratatosk]

Didn't what's-his-name break into the ship to steal the orb? Wouldn't that invalidate the idea that they need permission to enter anywhere in this world? I mean, I guess Greg could have given permission, but would that count? (I'm a bit green on the D&D rules, especially for vampires)

[JumboWheat01]

You know, I've silently cursed a few doors through my life, but I've never grabbed onto them and starting shouting insults at the door in question. It's just absolutely silly. And I love it.

I'll also admit it's kinda weird seeing so many dwarven men with hair in this page alone.

[Ruck]

Didn't what's-his-name break into the ship to steal the orb? Wouldn't that invalidate the idea that they need permission to enter anywhere in this world? I mean, I guess Greg could have given permission, but would that count? (I'm a bit green on the D&D rules, especially for vampires)

I'm not sure the rules apply to vehicles in the same way they do to homes. At least, that's the best explanation I can offer.

Onto another topic I was thinking of: It makes a lot of sense that Deep Fang Friar is obsessed with Roy, and I also suspect that may be what brings him down. If it's true that the vampire spirit "was created to fill the hole in your heart," it also makes sense that Durkon's loyalty to Roy would be twisted into Leechy Veinquaff's overriding hatred of him. We've already seen a couple of examples that Nega-Dwarf is willing to put his mission at risk to kill Roy, and while I'm sure he thinks it would be "fun" to fight in Thor's temple (after all, that would be another chance to desecrate something Durkon holds dear), he also seems more intent on fighting Roy than on simply keeping him at bay until the task is completed. I wouldn't be surprised if this leads to a fatal mistake on his part, especially with the Giant's previously mentioned stance that characters ought to meet their fates through their own actions in some way (which is also my stance on what makes good drama).

(No, this post was not an excuse to run through a bunch of nicknames for The Corpse Formerly Known as Durkon.)

[mr-mercer]

I do think you're on to something there: as you say it would certainly be in keeping with the themes presented, and it would make sense for a newly-minted vampire's former closest friends to become its most bitter enemies.


(No, this post was not an excuse to run through a bunch of nicknames for The Corpse Formerly Known as Durkon.)

Even so, I can respect your bravery in fighting the good fight on finding new names for Kyle, even if none of them will ever top Gareth.

[Ruck]

Even so, I can respect your bravery in fighting the good fight on finding new names for Kyle, even if none of them will ever top Gareth.

I did, at least, stick with names used in #1030. :smalltongue:

[dtilque]

We interrupt this thread for an important health announcement.

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/b/be/God_kills_catgirl.gif/revision/latest?cb=20060605112731


So it's time for a discussion of the physical effects of the Meld into Stone spell?

[Reboot]

I remember Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or maybe Angel, developing a bit on that rule. If a house had been left uninhabited, or only inhabited by beings without a soul, for a long time, then it was no longer warded against vampires. This a power souls have over the place they make their home, even if they do not realize it.

You could still ruin it all just by having a doormat with "Welcome" on it, or something like that.

Now, I don't remember Buffy's vampires having a problem with crossing running water or counting fallen grains (except for one who already had that OCD as a human).

Well, it was never quite clear what the powers of Buffyverse vampires were. They could shift between the face of the original human they inhabited and a "demon face" (with fangs); they were super-strong (though as with most live-action shows where the stunts were done in-camera by actual stuntmen how-strong-is-strong wasn't clear since the stuntmen weren't super-strong); they healed quicker/better than humans, although not instantly, and that was about it. I think there may have been one or two spider-climb instances, and there were one-off vamps with extra powers (Drusilla, Dracula - yeah, they went there).

[Mandor]

....
The vampire begins its existence as "your worst day, personified (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html)" and then progressively turns itself into an evil version of all that you were, by absorbing your very soul into itself. What is interesting about that premise is that the vampire's evil is the soul's evil, and eventually the two entities will become one. More of a digestion than a fusion, yes, but what if there is very little to digest?
....


This is highly probable to be accurate. But I always approach things explained by evil characters in a webcomic who thrive on being a distortion of the truth with a few grains of salt. Greg said this to Durkon in part to browbeat Durkon into just surrendering. Now, it may have been absolute pure unstilled truth. Or, it may not have been, and just a convienent lie for the vampire to torment his host with.

Now it's probably true, because, if nothing else, it also lets Rich give us some exposition into how these things work in Stick-verse without having to go totally fourth wall on us, or without having to post the Technical Specs of Vampirism, as a forum thread. But, you never know when a character in a story is choosing to simply LIE. We have very small statistical samples to work with, so a degree of doubt or mental hedging is not entirely unwarranted.

[nbLurkerAbove]

What if this room isn't on the other side of that door? The way I see it, Durkon didn't like the first request ("Show me a memory that gives me a good view of the room on the other side of this door") so he tricked the spirit into giving him a new request ("Give me a useful memory"). This would also explain Durkon's comment ("Thar's definitely a use fer it").

So my theory is that instead of showing the, for example, unguarded and unwarded room on the other side, Durkon showed him the most warded room in the temple. Does this make sense?

[danielxcutter]

What if this room isn't on the other side of that door? The way I see it, Durkon didn't like the first request ("Show me a memory that gives me a good view of the room on the other side of this door") so he tricked the spirit into giving him a new request ("Give me a useful memory"). This would also explain Durkon's comment ("Thar's definitely a use fer it").

So my theory is that instead of showing the, for example, unguarded and unwarded room on the other side, Durkon showed him the most warded room in the temple. Does this make sense?

Huh... that works too. I suppose that whatever the truth is, we all believe that Durkon is abusing the exact wording then?

[Keltest]

Well, it was never quite clear what the powers of Buffyverse vampires were. They could shift between the face of the original human they inhabited and a "demon face" (with fangs); they were super-strong (though as with most live-action shows where the stunts were done in-camera by actual stuntmen how-strong-is-strong wasn't clear since the stuntmen weren't super-strong); they healed quicker/better than humans, although not instantly, and that was about it. I think there may have been one or two spider-climb instances, and there were one-off vamps with extra powers (Drusilla, Dracula - yeah, they went there).

They were also unkillable if you didn't use one of their metaphorical silver bullets and generally immune to anything that targets a soul.

The biggest danger from them is that if they don't do something stupid, like pick a fight with a Slayer or Vampire Hunter, they could live hundreds or even thousands of years, and develop hundreds of years worth of resources and contingency plans to bring against you.

[ReturnOfTheKing]

Late, but wow, Rich has been on fire lately! It's like his update rate has just skyrocketed in the past two weeks or so. I hope this streak lasts!

[goto124]

I'll also admit it's kinda weird seeing so many dwarven men with hair in this page alone.

It occured to me that while dwarven men may lack hair on the top side of their heads, none of them lack hair on their chins. Even the young boys.

[JumboWheat01]

It occured to me that while dwarven men may lack hair on the top side of their heads, none of them lack hair on their chins. Even the young boys.

Knowing dwarves, they were probably born with beards. Which would be both weird and awesome at the same time.

[137beth]

What if this room isn't on the other side of that door? The way I see it, Durkon didn't like the first request ("Show me a memory that gives me a good view of the room on the other side of this door") so he tricked the spirit into giving him a new request ("Give me a useful memory"). This would also explain Durkon's comment ("Thar's definitely a use fer it").

So my theory is that instead of showing the, for example, unguarded and unwarded room on the other side, Durkon showed him the most warded room in the temple. Does this make sense?

Interesting. It's also possible that the room we just saw is the one HPoH wanted, but the wards on it in the memory were mostly temporary. If Durkon knows the room is usually not as well defended as it is now, he could have picked a memory that he knew would fool HPoH while still technically showing him the correct room.

[SaintRidley]

Presumably, all the Creed vampires are Durkon's thralls. He spawned all of them, so they'll remain under his control until his own destruction. According to the SRD, a vampire can control as many spawn as they have hit dice times 2 and, given that a high-level Cleric like Durkon would already have quite a large amount of hit dice, a number that would only be increased by becoming a Vampire, he has quite a lot of those.

The Vampire template adds no hit dice.

[Quebbster]

What if this room isn't on the other side of that door? The way I see it, Durkon didn't like the first request ("Show me a memory that gives me a good view of the room on the other side of this door") so he tricked the spirit into giving him a new request ("Give me a useful memory"). This would also explain Durkon's comment ("Thar's definitely a use fer it").

So my theory is that instead of showing the, for example, unguarded and unwarded room on the other side, Durkon showed him the most warded room in the temple. Does this make sense?

I was thinking the same thing, but couldn't quite express it in a concise manner.
We already know Durkon can tell the truth in a deceptive manner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html), so it does seem likely Greg just got tricked.

[factotum]

I'm not sure the rules apply to vehicles in the same way they do to homes. At least, that's the best explanation I can offer.

The cabin Vaarsuvius etc. were housed in was presumably a guest cabin aboard the Mechane, so it would really count as a public area. The vampire might not have been able to enter, say, Bandana's cabin because that really is her home. That's how I see it, anyroad.

[Kantaki]

It occured to me that while dwarven men may lack hair on the top side of their heads, none of them lack hair on their chins. Even the young boys.

A dwarf without beard is a dwarf without honour.
Wait, no, that was another universe. And possibly the other way around.

[factotum]

A dwarf without beard is a dwarf without honour.

...or a woman? :smallsmile:

[goto124]

...or a woman? :smallsmile:

Not in OotS, at least...

[Toofey]

I like the detail of the on Vampiric Dwarf still being a Dwarf and getting angry at the door for not serving it's function.

[Keltest]

Not in OotS, at least...

Without. Not with.

[Bedinsis]

I wonder if we'll soon see the room where Miko entered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html). Or if that was a different place then the one they are at now. Different hinges in that case.

If it is true that Durkon is trying to trick Durkon* by showing a memory when there were different wards, is it more likely that they would have laxer control on the day that outsiders(in this case, Durkon's extended family) came to visit (since they don't want to accidentally hurt someone there unfamiliar with how things usually work) or harder control (since they want to show their church on its best side when they have strangers to impress/when an initiation ritual is in place).

[wumpus]

Door, huh! (North Gods, y'all!) What is it good for? Aggravatin' vampires!

Supposedly taking languages such as "door" was a thing in 0e D&D (or at least mentioned in a classic Dragon reprint*). One DM recounted a player taking "wall" to ask what was on the other side in dungeons. The only response he gave was "I don't know, I'm plastered".

* Best of Dragon vol 1. One of my favorite TSR products since you could see how AD&D went together in a way previously lost to those who missed it.

[Quebbster]

I wonder if we'll soon see the room where Miko entered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html). Or if that was a different place then the one they are at now. Different hinges in that case.

If it is true that Durkon is trying to trick Durkon* by showing a memory when there were different wards, is it more likely that they would have laxer control on the day that outsiders(in this case, Durkon's extended family) came to visit (since they don't want to accidentally hurt someone there unfamiliar with how things usually work) or harder control (since they want to show their church on its best side when they have strangers to impress/when an initiation ritual is in place).
Miko probably didn't enter through the door the vampires are at. For one thing, the High Priest of Thor may not be based in Firmament. And even if Miko was in Firmament, the High Priest mentions that it's a private exit for the priests of Thor to observe the weather - as Miko came there in an official capacity she likely used the main gate. The private exit does seem like an excellent place for the vampires to try to sneak into the temple though.

[8BitNinja]

I always thought it represented something like this (https://www.battlemerchant.com/Helmets/Battle-ready-helmets/Secret-helmet-2-mm-steel::26328.html?language=en). Note that the High Priest of Thor is only seen wearing it when she's also wearing armour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html).

I think that you are right and that I am misinterpreting things

[mistersticky]

It's a door that want's to be a wall!
As the trans community has taught us, that means it actually is a wall :amused:

[Roland Itiative]

This strip made me wonder if Durkon giving up would accelerate the process of him being completely absorbed, as opposed to trying to resist at every point and assert his own personality.

Also, great comic, as always :P

[factotum]

This strip made me wonder if Durkon giving up would accelerate the process of him being completely absorbed, as opposed to trying to resist at every point and assert his own personality.


I don't think he gets "absorbed". From what Durkula has said in the past, once he's extracted all the useful memories Durkon will go into a state of "eternal quiescence" which would presumably end if the vampire were destroyed, releasing Durkon's spirit to its proper afterlife. He remains a separate entity throughout.

[Ruck]

The cabin Vaarsuvius etc. were housed in was presumably a guest cabin aboard the Mechane, so it would really count as a public area. The vampire might not have been able to enter, say, Bandana's cabin because that really is her home. That's how I see it, anyroad.

That makes sense, too.

[wumpus]

As the trans community has taught us, that means it actually is a wall :amused:

Well at least opening the door is a profoundly evil act. Presumably while Greg & Grumpy are so eager to open it.

[Ruck]

Don't feed the "registered an account today to do nothing but complain about trans people" troll.

[anonynos]

Don't feed the "registered an account today to do nothing but complain about trans people" troll.

The report post button is so much less aggravating...

[toapat]

Greg really really should have specified to whom the memory would be useful. Looks like Durkon's memory was more useful to Teams Thor and Stick than Team Hel.

it also looks like Durkon has learned to paint details. im pretty sure thats the current High Priestess of Thor at the ceremony as well

[AuthorGirl]

Ah. I think I see.

The memory was useful, but not to Darkon (fusion of "dark" and "Durkon" - everyone else is making up names so I might as well). The obvious wards in the memory were useful as a deterrent to Darkon and to Hel's other clerics.

On a lighter note: that guy has quite a problem with the door, doesn't he? I'm loving that side joke!

[8BitNinja]

Ah. I think I see.

The memory was useful, but not to Darkon (fusion of "dark" and "Durkon" - everyone else is making up names so I might as well). The obvious wards in the memory were useful as a deterrent to Darkon and to Hel's other clerics.

On a lighter note: that guy has quite a problem with the door, doesn't he? I'm loving that side joke!

Darkon? I thought it was Durkula.

[White Magic]

How in Thor's name do Durkon's memories include the expressions of the people he couldn't see behind him?

For that matter, why do so many of those memories include Durkon's own face?

Can it be "vampire magic" calling up past events from a point-of-view outside Durkon's body and not memories in the exact sense?

No matter what it is, I've never seen anything like Rich's narrative tool of victim memories informing the vampiric soul on demand, allowing the undead to mimic the old life. It's brilliant: exposition and plot forwarding in one stroke.

[BriarHobbit]

My effort at a "no prize" for how Durkon can see himself in his memory is that there is a mirror. Great comic. Interesting that some of the dwarves are frowning on what should be a happy occasion. I bet that Durkon did put some extra clarity on his memory of the wards to move the vampire hit squad away.

[Mandor]

How in Thor's name do Durkon's memories include the expressions of the people he couldn't see behind him?

For that matter, why do so many of those memories include Durkon's own face?
....

A memory is not necessarily just a photographic recall of what your eyes saw, and a phonographic recall of what your ears heard.
You can very easily argue that a memory is how you believe the events unfolded.
Easily illustrated by just how bad eyewitness testimony can be compared to a video record, or how an individuals memory of an event can literally change over time.

(don't think that last one can happen? Compare what someone who is 70 years old thinks of something now, vs what they thought of the same event 10 years before)

[Goblin_Priest]

How in Thor's name do Durkon's memories include the expressions of the people he couldn't see behind him?

For that matter, why do so many of those memories include Durkon's own face?

Can it be "vampire magic" calling up past events from a point-of-view outside Durkon's body and not memories in the exact sense?

No matter what it is, I've never seen anything like Rich's narrative tool of victim memories informing the vampiric soul on demand, allowing the undead to mimic the old life. It's brilliant: exposition and plot forwarding in one stroke.

He could have turned at some point to glance at them. Mostly I'd imagine it's how he presumed they were.

[Xyril]

Ah. I think I see.

The memory was useful, but not to Darkon (fusion of "dark" and "Durkon" - everyone else is making up names so I might as well). The obvious wards in the memory were useful as a deterrent to Darkon and to Hel's other clerics.


If this is true, I've got to say that I love how this situation has forced Durkon to develop something resembling a sense of guile, something he was sorely lacking before. Before his vampirism, the closest I can remember him coming to rules-lawyering was his acceptance of the dwarven tradition of suicide-by-tree as a way to circumvent a dishonorable death by old age.

[TaRix]

On a different tack, why not ask the more freshly-drained dwarfs in the previous comic about the rooms beyond? Surely they'd have more up-to-date memories. Were they just eaten, not turned?

[Jasdoif]

Before his vampirism, the closest I can remember him coming to rules-lawyering was his acceptance of the dwarven tradition of suicide-by-tree as a way to circumvent a dishonorable death by old age.I think #264 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html), meaningfully titled "I Cannae Tell a Lie", is as close as we've seen.


On a different tack, why not ask the more freshly-drained dwarfs in the previous comic about the rooms beyond? Surely they'd have more up-to-date memories. Were they just eaten, not turned?Without Malack's staff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html), the normal delay of three days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html) would be required before they could rise as vampires.

[Riftwolf]

Interesting side note: the red haired dwarf asking Durkon to perform at his wedding is Uncle Hoskin. Guess he gave up on asking Sigdi to marry him.

[GreatWyrmGold]

On vampire personalities:


It's clear that not all new vampires are as smart as they were before they were made undead. Geez.
I would have gone with "mature" before "smart". Gontor/Craig is acting more like a child than an idiot.



Yes, they were religious, but very prominently, chose to NOT follow a god, but a force of nature (stone), even though it meant not having a voice or a vote in the moots. Their vampire spirits could easily decide to eschew Hel and worship the dark energy instead.
You know, when they get to that rebellious teenager phase.



Because the vampire wanted a dramatic confrontation with Roy in the desecrated remains of the Temple of Thor. It's like the bloodsucker read Tarquin's book or something.
I can think of few things more horrifying to most members of the order than an eternity trapped with someone who takes Elan's thoughts on dramatic suitability seriously.



Belkar, OTOH, would hate anything that impinged on his freedom and ability to get lost in the moment of slaughtering things.
"Once I'm free of this weird red stuff, I'm gonna strangle you with it!"
"Joke's on you. That red stuff is part of your own mind. If you break it, you'll give yourself brain damage."
"Worth it!"
"I suppose it would be. You don't seem to use that mind of yours too often..."
"Sure, keep talking. Every word you say makes your eventual demise that much more satisfying."

Other vampire stuff:


A few years ago, when me and my old group were playing Pathfinder, the DM had the house we were in surrounded by a large gang of vampires. We were in "oh s**t" mode for a bit... until we realized that those vampires couldn't come in without being invited. Leading the head vampire trying to tell us to get out while we laugh at her face.

Then this happen[ed]:

Head Vampire: *taunt/threaten the PCs in a way everyone know won't be able to affect us*
One of the players, in-character: "Oh yeah? Why don't you come here and tell this to our face?"
Cue all the other players looking at the guy with the most flabbergasted expression ever as the DM grins.
Vampire Underling: "I can't believe that worked."



Being unable to enter somewhere without being invited makes you polite and respectful, wich [sic] is at complete odds with the usual characterization of vampires as villains. If there is actual symbolism making them eeeevil for respecting my boundaries, I'm not seeing it.
...Vampires were not just "eeeevil". Symbolism is about what goes beyond their plot purpose as villains, e.g. the aspects which make them capable of representing upper-class greed and gluttony, disease, or our baser vices. More here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mHCG4zbCPM?t=2m43s) As to how the can't-come-in-without-invitation thing works...you need to give the upper class a reason or opportunity before they target you with their greed, older understandings of disease (and, to an extent, modern ones) said you'd be safe if you avoided tainted areas and didn't let anything tainted in, and obviously vices don't affect you if you don't "let them in". (There are probably better explanations from people who spent more than a minute total thinking about this.)



Darkon? I thought it was Durkula.
That's the most-accepted name. (Or tied with Greg, I'm not keeping track. But Greg is so random that I can't take it seriously.)

Other:


Oh, prophecies. Why are you always so ironic?
Because non-ironic prophecies are usually either boring or wrong.



If a door that wants to be closed is a wall, what is a door that wants to be opened?
You messed up the BBcode. But I appreciate your choice of answer.



A coincidence I suspect. She's sitting on the family side. That would make her related to Durkon, which would have completely changed the plot. She would immediately have known Durkon's name when his letter arrived. Also she does not look that similar.
Aside from Durkon's mother and probably-grandfather, everyone in the front row on that side is wearing the same vestments as those on the other side. Seating arrangements are clearly not that simplistic.

[Quebbster]

Interesting side note: the red haired dwarf asking Durkon to perform at his wedding is Uncle Hoskin. Guess he gave up on asking Sigdi to marry him.

Or she said "yes". Or he keeps asking her and assumes she'll say "yes" sooner or later.

[AuthorGirl]

Darkon? I thought it was Durkula.

Good idea. That would be more difficult to type accidentally when trying to refer to Durkon.

[Throknor]

How in Thor's name do Durkon's memories include the expressions of the people he couldn't see behind him?

For that matter, why do so many of those memories include Durkon's own face?

Can it be "vampire magic" calling up past events from a point-of-view outside Durkon's body and not memories in the exact sense?

No matter what it is, I've never seen anything like Rich's narrative tool of victim memories informing the vampiric soul on demand, allowing the undead to mimic the old life. It's brilliant: exposition and plot forwarding in one stroke.

We know from references to panels and time between that the characters know they are in a comic. He's not remembering the scenes as he saw them but as what the scenes would have been depicted as had they been read.

[Kantaki]

Or she said "yes". Or he keeps asking her and assumes she'll say "yes" sooner or later.

Or he's talking about the dwarf woman- who definitely isn't Sigdi -he's walking arm in arm with.

[Matt620]

Now this is character development done well. The plot still moves forward, it's believable, and it stays long enough to move your heart, but not long enough as to be tiresome.

As for the splash panel of the people behind Memory!Durkon, they appear to be making noise (one of them is shush-ing). Durkon could very easily have pictured it in his mind. Given that the only annoyed people are clergy folk, Durkon probably knows them (and would know they wouldn't approve of such rowdyness).

Memory is a funny thing: They don't have to be everything seen through Durkon's eyes. Hell, they might not even be factually true, only that Durkon believes it happened that way.

Bonus points if that is the way Durkula is beaten. Extra bonus points if the blessed dolly is involved.

[Draconi Redfir]

all this talk of memmories and knowing what's behind you etc just makes me want to set up an elaborite set of occourances, that i reccord on flm, then reccord myself recalling what happened and when from memmoy every year or so, to see how it changes with time.

[Snails]

Being unable to enter somewhere without being invited makes you polite and respectful, wich is at complete odds with the usual characterization of vampires as villains. If there is actual symbolism making them eeeevil for respecting my boundaries, I'm not seeing it.


My recall is that it was originally a facet of their supreme OCD. It wasn't that they literally were physically unable to because of a magic barrier or something, simply that they were unable to bring themselves to force entry into a home where they weren't invited to.

Nah. I am going with literally physically unable to cross the magic barrier.

Vampires of old Christian mythology are basically in-league-with-Satan-himself evil spirits. Whether this was a somehow acquired property of the soul of the dead person that imbues the corpse with evil or some demon that infected the corpse after death was rather ambiguous.

Keep in mind that every important building would have been blessed by the priest, most especially the dwellings of those with real money. So in a weak sense, they are all "holy ground". That would not really matter for the usual day to day events, but would be expected to keep real devils from simply waltzing in. To suggest otherwise implies that those priests you paid coin to did not know how to splash their holy water around and speak their prayers in latin, which is a borderline blasphemy because it denigrates their competence at the Seven Sacraments, too. ("Excuse me, m'lord, but you are two centuries too early to Protestant Reformation. The Inquisition is here to rip out your entrails to help you confess your trespasses, so they can save your soul before your imminent expiration.")

Thus the politeness act is not a requirement, but a convenient subterfuge. A person of noble bearing with the right manners who appears at the door of the aristocrat would not ask to be invited or barge in; he would be "correct" to expect an invitation for a meal and lodging in return for entertaining conversation and news about the world.

As for whether peasant dwellings afford such protection, I would say...I dunno. Even most poor homes were permanent structures that passed through generations, and some poor traveling priest who wanted to encourage religious spirit in the poor would probably do such things on the cheap. The poorest of the poor were fodder for the evil spirits, as their rickety hovels were unblessed and their dead to interred in graves without the money to pay for priestly blessing.

To explicitly address Cazero's point, it is exactly because vampires are eeeeevil that they are physically required to respect certain boundaries. So they make a show of being oh so polite both as a ploy to hide their embarrassing little problem and a tactic to gain invitations.

[8BitNinja]

Good idea. That would be more difficult to type accidentally when trying to refer to Durkon.

Thanks, but it wasn't my idea. The term Durkula was thrown around on the forum a lot when the party was at the godsmoot.

[factotum]

Thanks, but it wasn't my idea. The term Durkula was thrown around on the forum a lot when the party was at the godsmoot.

I'm pretty sure somebody came up with that name approximately 0.03 seconds after Durkon was first made a vampire, to be honest, it certainly didn't start up when they got to the Godsmoot.

[hamishspence]

I was using it in 876, around about the time he was first grappled by Malack:


I've been wondering that. Maybe Durkula will be initiated into the clergy of Nergal by Malack, and go back to the Eastern Continent, then North and "bring death and destruction for us all".

[Basement Cat]

How in Thor's name do Durkon's memories include the expressions of the people he couldn't see behind him?

For that matter, why do so many of those memories include Durkon's own face?

Can it be "vampire magic" calling up past events from a point-of-view outside Durkon's body and not memories in the exact sense?

No matter what it is, I've never seen anything like Rich's narrative tool of victim memories informing the vampiric soul on demand, allowing the undead to mimic the old life. It's brilliant: exposition and plot forwarding in one stroke.

It's the Fourth Wall making an appearance--pun intended. :smallbiggrin: