Vampires and tactical options [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

goodpeople25

2017-07-27, 08:49 PM

DR 5 is for spawn, full vampires have DR 10. Of course the question then is if any of the weaker ones are spawns, how many creeders would have had 4 or less HD to start with and then how many would have survived the culling to get here. (I somewhat doubt they went for energy drains to not get full vampires, but it's possible)

Combat wise (though I have no practical experience) I think DR and cold resistance plus undead traits coupled with healing and fast healing could make this hinge on mostly just V and Roy in a damage race, but that's at the others worst. (And me lowballing due to not knowing that much about damage) Elan and Haley have spells to burst (heh) out and Elan and Belkar I'm not exactly sure on what they have in damage (What the Chaos Saber does as well as his puns not being a sure thing and if Belkar is hindered by his protection or has a favoured enemy boost.) But really I don't think either side should make this close to a damage contest or fair fight. So yeah dominations, (and tricks to combat it) attrition, (I don't think the order has negative level help except maybe Roy?) ambushes, focused attacks, other vampire abilites, anyway to bring sunlight into/out of the equation ect, ect.

Random Sanity

2017-07-27, 09:21 PM

What about that Chaos Saber Julio loaned him?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You mean the one that got launched into open space when Roy nearly went overboard dealing with the giantess? Unless it has the same returning property as Roy's ancestral sword, it's still at the bottom of that box canyon.

goodpeople25

2017-07-27, 10:06 PM

You mean the one that got launched into open space when Roy nearly went overboard dealing with the giantess? Unless it has the same returning property as Roy's ancestral sword, it's still at the bottom of that box canyon.
No, pretty sure that is random behind the door pirate sword, you can see the differences in that one and Elan's saber around the #1070 mark. (Not sure if/where to find a new art-style chaos saber outside this fight, but you can see it in the old around #930)

(Also general frustration at the mention of the returning property, but that's on me)

goto124

2017-07-28, 04:43 AM

and Belkar needs to subject himself to constant harm to avoid joining them.

I kept hearing that Belkar now has protection from Domination. If it refers to the Protection From Evil ring he bought at the shop, he indeed can't wear it without getting hurt, which rather confused me...

If Belkar actually bought that ring, can't he give it to Elan or Haley?

Storm_Of_Snow

2017-07-28, 05:51 AM

You mean the one that got launched into open space when Roy nearly went overboard dealing with the giantess? Unless it has the same returning property as Roy's ancestral sword, it's still at the bottom of that box canyon.
Elan drew his sabre to cut the rope in #1070 so he could swing down and heal Roy, he's still holding it when he casts Confusion and runs after the giantess, but he's no longer holding it in #1073 when chasing back down the Mechane's deck after her, so presumably he sheathed it again.

Vampires DR is negated by silver and magic, plus the Chaos Sabre does extra damage against lawful creatures, which may mean some of the vampires (including Durkula) are taking extra damage. Plus he's got the cure wounds wand to potentially cherry tap them.

On the downside, Elan vs vampiric domination will probably be something akin to the life expectancy of a prawn cracker vs a sandblaster. :smallamused:

Haley and V can potentially reuse Pointy Death Incarnate to allow Haley to get sneak attacks, although given Hel was watching the fight with the Frost Giants, Durkula or one of the others is probably getting Invisibility Purge in his nightly spells (and the order's arriving after spell refresh), so it may not last. Haley's also got the selection of wands to use, although the Adamantine dagger's no extra help.

Assuming the IFCC don't burn one of their time outs, V's got Forcecage and Resilent Sphere, which can potentially take some of the vampires out of the fight.

Goblin_Priest

2017-07-28, 09:14 AM

So DR 10/silver+magic and fast healing 5 for the full vampires? Big whoop.

There are four vampires. One of them is high level, but despite all these buffs he wasn't exactly overwhelming Roy. One of them is probably highish level, though presumably lower level than Durkon*. The two others, I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised if they were low leveled, perhaps even low enough to be mere spawns.

Against: Roy, V, Elan, Haley, and Belkar, 5 high level adventurers, who are at least the same level as the vampires' highest level cleric.

Just the numbers makes a huge difference, 5vs4. The levels too. Vampires have no constitution modifier to HP, which becomes increasingly problematic at high levels (where you'd expect living characters to have HP(/con) boosting feats and magical items). Add on top of that the HD differential, then the order has way larger a HP pool, which I'd say is even better than the DR and fast healing.

The HD differential has many effects. With blast spells, V's will ignore all of that DR, whereas the clerics' will be targeting a larger pool of HP. And with all spells, the order's saves and DCs will be higher than the vampires'. The vampires' spells also have less powerful effects, both as limited by spell level and by caster level. A CL 10 Flame Strike doesn't dish out the same damage as a CL15+ Cone of Cold, even if they use the same spell level slot. Even when considering cold resistance (or electricity resistance for Chain Lightning, though empowered fireballs would be an even simpler fix).

Remember "Xykon is feeling chilly tonight", out in the desert? If all five of the order focused on Durkon*, he probably wouldn't last more than two or three rounds, if even one. With him gone, the rest become free willed, and will likely flee, or otherwise be easy to deal with.

Now, let's be clear, this is all assuming a simple fight with no surprise and no pre-buffing over a large flat battleground. I don't expect things to turn out like this in comic, because it'd make for an underwhelming (anti-)climax. I expect team vampire to have some tricks up its sleeves, but in an arena-style versus? They'd stand no chance.

Goblin_Priest

2017-07-28, 09:16 AM

Elan drew his sabre to cut the rope in #1070 so he could swing down and heal Roy, he's still holding it when he casts Confusion and runs after the giantess, but he's no longer holding it in #1073 when chasing back down the Mechane's deck after her, so presumably he sheathed it again.

Vampires DR is negated by silver and magic, plus the Chaos Sabre does extra damage against lawful creatures, which may mean some of the vampires (including Durkula) are taking extra damage. Plus he's got the cure wounds wand to potentially cherry tap them.

On the downside, Elan vs vampiric domination will probably be something akin to the life expectancy of a prawn cracker vs a sandblaster. :smallamused:

Haley and V can potentially reuse Pointy Death Incarnate to allow Haley to get sneak attacks, although given Hel was watching the fight with the Frost Giants, Durkula or one of the others is probably getting Invisibility Purge in his nightly spells (and the order's arriving after spell refresh), so it may not last. Haley's also got the selection of wands to use, although the Adamantine dagger's no extra help.

Assuming the IFCC don't burn one of their time outs, V's got Forcecage and Resilent Sphere, which can potentially take some of the vampires out of the fight.

Can't sneak attack undead in 3.5 iirc. You can still ready attacks for when they try to cast spells, though, to force concentration checks. Or just pepper them with arrows despite lacking the extra damage.

Silver arrows are cheap, too.

pendell

2017-07-28, 09:37 AM

If part of the IFC's plan is to assist Hel in ending the world, they will call in their marker. 23 minutes -- round up to 24 minutes -- a turn is ten minutes, and a round is six seconds? So we're looking at him being out for about 240 rounds.

So. Let's assume we fight this battle with Vaarsuvius out. We have Roy with his sword, haley with her arrows, Belkar with his daggers, Elan with his saber and prestige class. The critical issue I'm seeing is that, unless we can find some way to get Haley and Elan some immunity to mind-affecting, the only person we can really count on in this fight is Roy.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The MunchKING

2017-07-28, 09:56 AM

On the downside, Elan vs vampiric domination will probably be something akin to the life expectancy of a prawn cracker vs a sandblaster. :smallamused:

Or will he do that "I'm so stupid, me trying to follow Domination orders somehow loops back around to being helpful to the OotS" gimmick? I mean he's no Belkar in terms of combat proficiency, and he really cares about 2 out of those 4. Which IIRC gives him another save if he's ordered to attack them.

pendell

2017-07-28, 03:07 PM

Here's another tactical observation: The High Priest is fixated on Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html).

In that panel he decided against the tactically smart thing to do in order to engage Roy in combat, precisely because he hates Roy. Absolutely loathes and despises him.

That isn't the only time. Hel specifically warned him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html) that she doesn't care at all whether Roy lives or dies. But the vampire leader is absolutely determined to have a climactic duel with Roy even if it isn't tactically sound.

Odd, that. Aren't vampires supposed to inherit the original host's stats, with plusses to things like Int? I can't see the original Durkon letting his passions get the better of him to this extent.

In any event, it does seem like Roy may be able to make use of that somehow; get the vampires to focus on and attack him, rather than doing something more important like say, actually dominating the council of elders.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Sprütche

2017-07-28, 03:59 PM

Can Elan use his song of freedom to break Belkar or some dwarves out of domination? Girard's illusion and vampire domination both create swirley eyes.

pendell

2017-07-28, 06:28 PM

Jasdoif

2017-07-28, 07:49 PM

I suspect I'm going to mess something up with this...but it might be fun to try anyway :smalltongue:
Step one: what levels am I going to guess comprise our Vampiric Cabal?

HPoH, whose attempt to cast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html) the 7th-level destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) puts him at least at 13th level.
The Token Non-Dwarf Vampire (TNDV), whose greater dispel magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1085.html) puts her at least at 11th level.
The Exarch, who we don't have any real basis for other than a mention of high-level slots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).... OK, I see ten incoming vampires here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html), so if I were to assume all but TNDV were vampire spawn, that'd make 47 HD of vampires; and if I were to assume they were all created by HPoH or the Exarch (explaining why HPoH needed the Exarch) that'd require 24 levels between them to keep them enslaved, and HPoH I already gave 13...so sure, the Exarch also has 11 cleric levels.
The Vampire That Stands Alone (VTSA) is a vampire spawn under the above assumption, and thus has 4 hit dice and has no cleric spellcasting.

Works for me....

Now I'm assuming that retreat is exactly as a bad as a loss (so dispatching HPoH after the Gate isn't viable), and that if actually defeating the OotS isn't an option than weakening them as much as possible is still the goal. As in, even though this looks like a losing battle for the Vampiric Cabal, maximizing their chances of success is still the goal.

So the first order of business is obvious: remove Vaarsuvius, who can reliably one-shot vampires from range with distintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm), and could wipe out VTSA while damaging everyone else with a basic fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm).

An ambush is of course preferable on that point, since it would be ideal to deny Vaarsvuius the chance to wreak any vampires. So for opening, ideally as a surprise round....

HPoH: Destruction cast on Vaarsuvius. Fort save or die (and be really hard to resurrect), still does a small bunch of damage on a failed save, and works outside melee range.
TNDV/Exarch: Flame strike on Vaarsuvius, if necessary. Bunch of damage, Reflex save for half, possiblity to hit multiple targets. Frankly, if it wasn't for the level difference I'd prefer greater dispel magic in case Vaarsuvius had defensive spells up; but the level difference pushes the chance of successful dispelling so far down it doesn't make sense.
VTSA (or if available, TNDV/Exarch): Dominate Belkar, if not already dominated. HPoH has seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html) Belkar use his protection from evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) item; he knows it's not constantly on. Even if HPoH doesn't know precisely what it does, dominating Belkar before he has a chance to activate it makes sense.
If available, TNDV/Exarch: Dominate Elan. It's a tossup between Elan and Haley, really; but if Elan gets off inspire courage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireCourage) then everyone in the Order gets a boost on attacks and saving throws for at least five rounds.

If they're lucky, they've taken out Vaarsuvius by this point and they get to go first again in the next round of combat thanks the Improved Initiative bonus feat vampires (including vampire spawn) get....Because every action the Order gets brings the Cabal closer to defeat; Roy already showed he can fight HPoH into a retreat one-on-one back at the Godsmoot, and Roy has a much better entourage.

HPoH will move to engage Roy at this point...largely because HPoH hates Roy with a passion, but also because Roy could mop the floor with any of the others if given the chance.

Standing recommendations for the rest:
Keeping the rest of the Order dominated is supremely unlikely, with the new save given for forcing them to take actions against their nature; but it's at-will, turns the Order's strength against them, and VTSA has nothing better to do (unless Blackwing or Mr. Scruffy let her initiate a grapple, possibly).
If Elan's dominated, having him use lesser confusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusionLesser.htm) on undominated members of the Order, or greater dispel magic against Roy's/Haley's weapon, is probably the best use of him. If Vaarsuvius is still alive, using greater dispel magic against Vaarsuvius takes priority.
Everyone else who's been dominated should be ordered to attack Roy.
Flame strike should only be used on Vaarsuvius or when multiple targets can be hit; Haley, Belkar, Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy all have evasion or improved evasion by this point. If finishing any of them off at range after harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm) leaves them at one hit point, spontaneously converting it to mass inflict light wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWoundsMass.htm) will bypass evasion and do at least 6 damage even on a passed save.
Desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) gives undead like vampires a small boost on their attacks and saving throws in an area. If they end up with nothing better to do with their actions or 2nd-level slots, handing a bonus to HPoH is an option.

By SRD, Vampire dominate functions equivalent to the Spell Dominate Person, so Song of Freedom, which functions as Break Enchantment, should be sufficient to dispel the dominion.Absolutely. Song of freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#songofFreedom) takes one minute to use though, making it rather ineffective in the middle of combat.

goto124

2017-07-28, 08:28 PM

Wait, Song of Freedom is RAW? I thought that panel was just a joke!

The MunchKING

2017-07-29, 12:44 AM

Wait, Song of Freedom is RAW? I thought that panel was just a joke!

Oh no, it is totally a real thing.

pendell

2017-07-29, 08:24 AM

I suspect I'm going to mess something up with this...but it might be fun to try anyway :smalltongue:

Excellent analysis, and just what I was looking for. Question, though: Where do the other six vampires come from? They don't have the staff any more, so I don't think they can quicken the rising of those they killed short of the three day period.

They could bring in a planar ally or two, though, if they were willing to burn a spell slot to do so. What does an extra fiend add to this calculation?

So the first order of business is obvious: remove Vaarsuvius, who can reliably one-shot vampires from range with distintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm), and could wipe out VTSA while damaging everyone else with a basic fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm).

An ambush is of course preferable on that point, since it would be ideal to deny Vaarsvuius the chance to wreak any vampires. So for opening, ideally as a surprise round....

HPoH: Destruction cast on Vaarsuvius. Fort save or die (and be really hard to resurrect), still does a small bunch of damage on a failed save, and works outside melee range.

What about anti-magic field? To paraphrase mama black dragon, in an AMF field an elven wizard is a silly little monkey in a robe, while vampires are still vampires.
Does Roy's ancestral weapon retain it's magical properties in an AMF?

If the vampires retain their vampire abilities while the OOTS lacks any way to overcome vampiric damage reduction, then an AMF would seem to be the way to go.

Problem with this strategy is that AMF is Cleric 8, so the vampires can't just be granted it. Perhaps one of the dwarves has a wand or an artifact that will generate one? Or maybe there's an AMF field in the fortress that original-Durkon will know about?

[list] VTSA (or if available, TNDV/Exarch): Dominate Belkar, if not already dominated. HPoH has seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html) Belkar use his protection from evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) item; he knows it's not constantly on. Even if HPoH doesn't know precisely what it does, dominating Belkar before he has a chance to activate it makes sense.
If available, TNDV/Exarch: Dominate Elan. It's a tossup between Elan and Haley, really; but if Elan gets off inspire courage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireCourage) then everyone in the Order gets a boost on attacks and saving throws for at least five rounds.

If this is the case then I submit that dominating the weak-minded should be their first move. Have them under control before they even know combat has started. Then have them make their attack from inside the party at the same time we hit Vaarsuvius.

Would it make sense to hit BOTH Roy and Vaarsuvius in the surprise round? Or is that dividing our attentions and wasting our energy? The reason I ask is that part of the reason Roy won in the temple was because he could use his anti-spellcaster feat against the HPOH in close-range melee combat. If the HPOH can zap Greg from range, before he can use his feat, or co-ordinate a multiple aspect attack where Roy can't block them all, this is going to be a much tougher fight for the order.

So how about this plan:

Before combat starts: Set up a situation where you can sneakily get eye contact with all the heroes before they are aware of it. Establish eye contact and dominate Elan, Belkar, and Haley.
Round 1: Plane Shift Vaarsuvius. One round save-or-suck, and we already know he failed against Zz'dtri.
Rounds 2..N: Converge and attack Roy from multiple aspects. Hit by casters from all directions and attacked by the rest of the now-Dominated Order, Roy will soon fall. Then the OOTS becomes the Order of the Fang.

I kinda hope that Rich can give us a what-if cutaway panel (not the real in comic thing; a dream sequence or possible future) with the entire order as vampires. They'd look cool, I think.

If the initial plan fails and Vaarsuvius remains in the fight, use change to mist to evade Roy's melee attacks while using bat-form to close to melee with Vaarsuvius. Once in melee with a wizard V will be neutralized in short order. Then it's back to the multiple-casters-engaging-one-fighter from range.

Plan 2: Guerrilla warfare. Before the actual battle starts, find pretexts to dominate and attrit the weak-minded by compelling them to do something foolish. Then withdraw to another prepared position and do it again until the party is down to only V and Roy. Problem with this plan is that the heroes know what's happening after the first attack, so they've got to hit Belkar first.

Standing recommendations for the rest:
Keeping the rest of the Order dominated is supremely unlikely, with the new save given for forcing them to take actions against their nature; but it's at-will, turns the Order's strength against them, and VTSA has nothing better to do (unless Blackwing or Mr. Scruffy let her initiate a grapple, possibly).

What if you tell them to just sit on their hands and take no action except those specifically ordered? Would that be against their nature?

From the other side of the table, the most important thing the order has to do is defeat those domination effects. Belkar has his toy, what about Elan and Haley? They're going to need protection as well, will they not? Protection from Evil is a Wiz 1 spell; can V cast it?

Really great thoughts here, Jasdoif. Thanks.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2017-07-29, 08:26 AM

Um... I don't know what happened with that last post. I'm going to clean it up after I have the mods look at it. Some kind of format error?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-07-29, 11:04 AM

I don't know what you did here, but I'm blaming Hel.

137beth

2017-07-29, 01:25 PM

I suspect I'm going to mess something up with this...but it might be fun to try anyway :smalltongue:
Now I'm assuming that retreat is exactly as a bad as a loss (so dispatching HPoH after the Gate isn't viable), and that if actually defeating the OotS isn't an option than weakening them as much as possible is still the goal. As in, even though this looks like a losing battle for the Vampiric Cabal, maximizing their chances of success is still the goal.

Of the assumptions you've made, I think this one is the least likely to be true. Dominating the dwarf council is Hel's plan B. I can completely see that if it fails, her Plan C will be to send HPoH to destroy the gate. Once the last gate is destroyed, the remaining gods may decide to destroy the world anyways, and so Hel will still win. Now that the other Northern gods know Hel's plan, some of the good gods may want to make a last-ditch effort to save the world, but they may still view the Snarl as a bigger threat, the evil gods probably wouldn't care, and the fact that the world is much closer to being unmade by the Snarl would probably sway several previous no-votes to yes.
Even in the unlikely event that a majority of the Northern pantheon still decides to keep the world after the last gate is destroyed just to stop Hel from gaining more power, she only needs two pantheons to vote Yes for the world to be destroyed. I doubt the Western or Southern gods would care about Hel's plan, since ultimately all she wants to do is reshuffle power within the Northern pantheon. So Hel may well expect that if the last gate is destroyed, she can count on at least the two other pantheons to vote to destroy the world, giving her dominance in the Northern pantheon in the next game world.

Jasdoif

2017-07-29, 03:37 PM

Question, though: Where do the other six vampires come from? They don't have the staff any more, so I don't think they can quicken the rising of those they killed short of the three day period.I mentioned the ten vampires at the Godsmoot as the basis for my guess of the Exarch's level. (I believe the others have dissipated at this point, being coffinless and it having been more than an hour since the Godsmoot).

They could bring in a planar ally or two, though, if they were willing to burn a spell slot to do so. What does an extra fiend add to this calculation?Convincing a fiend to risk its own existence would be the biggest issue, I suspect.

If the vampires retain their vampire abilities while the OOTS lacks any way to overcome vampiric damage reduction, then an AMF would seem to be the way to go.That's just it, though. Even if I'm underestimating HPoH and he's got eighth-level spells for it....A vampire's dominate, energy drain, alternate form, damage reduction, fast healing, and gaseous form are all supernatural abilites (marked with "(Su)" in the template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)); they don't function in an antimagic field. To say nothing of their own spellcasting....It'd certainly mess with Vaarsuvius, but make Roy and Belkar's job a lot easier.

Would it make sense to hit BOTH Roy and Vaarsuvius in the surprise round? Or is that dividing our attentions and wasting our energy? The reason I ask is that part of the reason Roy won in the temple was because he could use his anti-spellcaster feat against the HPOH in close-range melee combat. If the HPOH can zap Greg from range, before he can use his feat, or co-ordinate a multiple aspect attack where Roy can't block them all, this is going to be a much tougher fight for the order.If Roy and Vaarsuvius are positioned where flame strike could hit them both, sure. Otherwise...well, disintegrate has a good chance of removing any of the vampires all the way down from full health with a single cast. Including HPoH. It's a severe risk.

Plane Shift Vaarsuvius. One round save-or-suck, and we already know he failed against Zz'dtri.Save-or-lose, really; but it's a Will-negates spell with a touch range, and Vaarsuvius is going to have a high Will save and does a lot of flying these days. If an opportunity does exist to attack from the floor or ceiling, slay living (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slayLiving.htm) would be a better choice against Vaarsuvius for the same slot.

Converge and attack Roy from multiple aspects. Hit by casters from all directions and attacked by the rest of the now-Dominated Order, Roy will soon fall. Then the OOTS becomes the Order of the Fang.That would be the general approach once Roy's effectively the only member of the Order, yes.

Once in melee with a wizard V will be neutralized in short order.That would depend on how Vaarsuvius' Concentration check is, really. Not to mention getting that far would be a challenge; a vampire's alternate form and gaseous form are both standard actions so they can't start flying and attack/grapple/cast-at Vaarsuvius in the same round.

What if you tell them to just sit on their hands and take no action except those specifically ordered? Would that be against their nature?"Do nothing while we kill the rest of the Order" might be OK with Belkar, but it wouldn't go over well with Haley or Elan. Better to have them contribute to the overall battle and/or deplete their own resources instead, I'd think.

From the other side of the table, the most important thing the order has to do is defeat those domination effects. Belkar has his toy, what about Elan and Haley? They're going to need protection as well, will they not? Protection from Evil is a Wiz 1 spell; can V cast it? Yes, but it's also one target and one minute per level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm), so Vaarsuvius would have to cast it around twenty times per hour to keep coverage up. Its big brother magic circle against evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm) could work though...In that case, opening with the area version of greater dispel magic would be called for rather than one of the flame strikes. I'd still have low bets on its overall effectiveness; but with enough potential targets and the value of dominating, it's still worthwhile. (Neither spell actually prevents domination from hitting, but it stops control from being exercised; so in a downhill struggle dominating them before dispelling the magic circle/protection could still work).

Now I'm assuming that retreat is exactly as a bad as a loss (so dispatching HPoH after the Gate isn't viable), and that if actually defeating the OotS isn't an option than weakening them as much as possible is still the goal. As in, even though this looks like a losing battle for the Vampiric Cabal, maximizing their chances of success is still the goal.

Of the assumptions you've made, I think this one is the least likely to be true. Dominating the dwarf council is Hel's plan B. I can completely see that if it fails, her Plan C will be to send HPoH to destroy the gate. Once the last gate is destroyed, the remaining gods may decide to destroy the world anyways, and so Hel will still win.Oh absolutely, I've been pushing that view myself for months.

But without that assumption, the battle looks a lot like "TNDV, VSTA and the Exarch are efficiently slaughtered because HPoH is going after the Gate and left them as a distraction; and they don't have enough power to really expect to inconvenience the Order", which kind of defeats the purpose of outlining the tactics :smalltongue:

Goblin_Priest

2017-07-29, 06:52 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't V cast anti-magic field on the familiar, and send it flying to the vampires? It would completely neutralize the vampires as they get hacked to bits by the OotS.

Jasdoif

2017-07-29, 07:39 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't V cast anti-magic field on the familiar, and send it flying to the vampires? It would completely neutralize the vampires as they get hacked to bits by the OotS.Antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) is a 10-foot-radius field that follows the caster around, so casting it "on" something doesn't even make sense. Even if it did, and share spells with familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiarShareSpells) was in play, it'd stop once Blackwing got more than five feet away from Vaarsuvius.

Even if it did, Blackwing's durability is severely lacking, with 50% as many hit points and 0% as many spells as Vaarsuvius; you're looking at a smashed raven and a lot of lost XP for Vaarsuvius at that point.

The MunchKING

2017-07-29, 08:12 PM

What if you tell them to just sit on their hands and take no action except those specifically ordered? Would that be against their nature?

Belkar REALLY likes killin' things.

That said he can put up with it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html) when he has to.

From the other side of the table, the most important thing the order has to do is defeat those domination effects. Belkar has his toy, what about Elan and Haley? They're going to need protection as well, will they not? Protection from Evil is a Wiz 1 spell; can V cast it?

If it's in her book. She's cast loads of other Abjurations, so game mechanics wise there's nothing from stopping her.

That's just it, though. Even if I'm underestimating HPoH and he's got eighth-level spells for it....A vampire's dominate, energy drain, alternate form, damage reduction, fast healing, and gaseous form are all supernatural abilites (marked with "(Su)" in the template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)); they don't function in an antimagic field. To say nothing of their own spellcasting....It'd certainly mess with Vaarsuvius, but make Roy and Belkar's job a lot easier.

I was going to point that out. That said, it would also stop everyone's magic weapons, and Roy's stat boosting gear.

That would depend on how Vaarsuvius' Concentration check is, really. Not to mention getting that far would be a challenge; a vampire's alternate form and gaseous form are both standard actions so they can't start flying and attack/grapple/cast-at Vaarsuvius in the same round.

She's also OK at casting defensively (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html).

"Do nothing while we kill the rest of the Order" might be OK with Belkar, but it wouldn't go over well with Haley or Elan. Better to have them contribute to the overall battle and/or deplete their own resources instead, I'd think.

I wonder if it could get around Haley's resistance the same way Tsukino got around Thanh's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html)? Just tell her "steal the Magic items from the fighter" or something, and neglect to mention the Fighter in question is Roy.

Yes, but it's also one target and one minute per level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm), so Vaarsuvius would have to cast it around twenty times per hour to keep coverage up.

Well it would be something you'd want to deploy right before the battle if at all possible.

Goblin_Priest

2017-07-29, 08:25 PM

Antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) is a 10-foot-radius field that follows the caster around, so casting it "on" something doesn't even make sense. Even if it did, and share spells with familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiarShareSpells) was in play, it'd stop once Blackwing got more than five feet away from Vaarsuvius.

Even if it did, Blackwing's durability is severely lacking, with 50% as many hit points and 0% as many spells as Vaarsuvius; you're looking at a smashed raven and a lot of lost XP for Vaarsuvius at that point.

Share Spell is what I had in mind. Thank you for the link, it doesn't work like I thought it did. I don't remember ever actually using a familiar in combat. XD

Goblin_Priest

2017-07-29, 08:27 PM

Well it would be something you'd want to deploy right before the battle if at all possible.

Even better, Magic Circle Against Evil would affect many people and lasts 10 mins per level.

goto124

2017-07-29, 10:41 PM

Belkar REALLY likes killin' things.

"Try to cut off V's hair, it'll annoy them a lot."

The MunchKING

2017-07-29, 10:52 PM

"Try to cut off V's hair, it'll annoy them a lot."

One cut, right below the chin. :p

CletusMusashi

2017-07-30, 02:53 PM

By far, the greatest weapon that the OOTS will have at their disposal for this coming battle will be Elan himself.
Because cheesey vampire puns? Are awesome.

Otomodachi

2017-07-30, 04:02 PM

Worth noting (noone SEEMS to have specifically mentioned here) that the dominating gaze of a vampire only has a range of 30 feet. Since undead can't be Sneak Attacked anyhow, Haley can just hang out at a decent range and be fairly safe from that specific attack. It's also a standard action. A GOOD standard action, but not as good as casting a spell in a lot of cases.

Belkar does indeed have a ring to protect; it "hurts" him but... well, that's something Rich came up with. Whether the pain does damage, or gives him combat penalties... we have no idea. But he should be dominate-proof as long as he wears it.

As for Elan... well, it all comes down to the phrase that the victim follows orders "to the best of their abilities". There is indeed comedic potential to a dominated Elan being a total failure, and so I have a hunch we'll see at least a little of that... but on the other hand the E-man is a lot more competent than he used to be. Who knows.

The MunchKING

2017-07-30, 07:52 PM

By far, the greatest weapon that the OOTS will have at their disposal for this coming battle will be Elan himself.
Because cheesey vampire puns? Are awesome.

He could also use his bard songs, singing such classics as "Hemoglobin Highway" or "Monster Mash"? OK the number of blood or vampire related songs isn't as good as I thought. :p

Talion

2017-07-30, 08:03 PM

He could also use his bard songs, singing such classics as "Hemoglobin Highway" or "Monster Mash"? OK the number of blood or vampire related songs isn't as good as I thought. :p

If anything, he should be singing "Highway to Hel"

Storm_Of_Snow

2017-07-31, 07:36 AM

Can't sneak attack undead in 3.5 iirc. You can still ready attacks for when they try to cast spells, though, to force concentration checks. Or just pepper them with arrows despite lacking the extra damage.

Silver arrows are cheap, too.
True about no sneak attacks (it's on the Rogue rules in the SRD), but thanks to the Icy Burst bow, Haley's arrows count as magical anyway.

If part of the IFC's plan is to assist Hel in ending the world, they will call in their marker. 23 minutes -- round up to 24 minutes -- a turn is ten minutes, and a round is six seconds? So we're looking at him being out for about 240 rounds.

So. Let's assume we fight this battle with Vaarsuvius out. We have Roy with his sword, haley with her arrows, Belkar with his daggers, Elan with his saber and prestige class. The critical issue I'm seeing is that, unless we can find some way to get Haley and Elan some immunity to mind-affecting, the only person we can really count on in this fight is Roy.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Isn't their plan to sow discord and promote evil? Wouldn't the world being unmade kind of put a stop to that?

Plus Haley's got the wands, and possibly whatever scrolls V's been scribing for magical support if V does get timed out.

Or will he do that "I'm so stupid, me trying to follow Domination orders somehow loops back around to being helpful to the OotS" gimmick? I mean he's no Belkar in terms of combat proficiency, and he really cares about 2 out of those 4. Which IIRC gives him another save if he's ordered to attack them.
Given we had Elan getting mind-controlled by the absurdly templated snail in one of the Dragon strips and shaking it off as part of a joke around dramatic conventions, and as a way of showing his character growth and maturity when he did it again in Girard's pyramid, I can't see the Giant using it a third time.

He could also use his bard songs, singing such classics as "Hemoglobin Highway" or "Monster Mash"? OK the number of blood or vampire related songs isn't as good as I thought. :p
What about Iron Maiden's song, Blood Brothers?

Or he could go back to his earlier dalliance with The Beatles, and sing (Plate)let it be? :smallamused:

pendell

2017-07-31, 01:40 PM

Isn't their plan to sow discord and promote evil? Wouldn't the world being unmade kind of put a stop to that?

The world will be remade though. Maybe a better world (from their perspective). In any event the world being remade is a far better deal than the world destroyed by the Snarl, in which there will be no good or evil forever.

So I can see them intervening if they decide they want to take a sure bet (a remade world safe from the snarl) instead of the risky one (letting our meddling kids sort out the problem).

Given we had Elan getting mind-controlled by the absurdly templated snail in one of the Dragon strips and shaking it off as part of a joke around dramatic conventions, and as a way of showing his character growth and maturity when he did it again in Girard's pyramid, I can't see the Giant using it a third time.

How is he not going to use it, given Elan has no known protective items and the mental breaking strain of a loaf of bread? The only we way we can avoid domination as an issue is if Elan is out of the party when the fight happens.

Surely someone in the order is thinking about this? Roy putting his 16+ int and MBA to use?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Otomodachi

2017-07-31, 04:21 PM

OK, so I'm gonna throw something a bit controversial out here and say... Vampiric Dominate should not be THAT big a problem for Elan. Even if his wis is 6. Class/level geekery feels he's at least a level 14 bard, so that's a +9 on will saves, making it a +7 total even if his wisdom is seriously that bad. I... have a hard time believing it's lower than six, due to how hard it is to get a stat THAT low at creation.

The save on a vampire dwarf's dominate person is going to generally by a difficulty of 16; dwarven -2 to charisma, +4 for vampire will generally mean these clerics are getting a +1 to the DC which is natively 15. So, like, you know... slightly better than a 50/50 chance of initially saving (55%) and as soon as the vampire orders him to go after an ally (I think even attacking BELKAR would be "against Elan's nature") he gets another save at a 65% chance. So, less than a 1/4 chance, per use, of successfully getting Elan to do anything actively detrimental to his party. "The bonds of friendship" seem like a BIG DEAL to Elan. I could see getting him to buff Durkula being a solid choice, but probably not other strange vampires.

That's all aside from any protection from evil spells that get cast. It's a pretty efficient spell for V to drop a bunch of, and it seems like only Durkula would have a real chance of passing the caster level check to dispel it.

pendell

2017-07-31, 05:29 PM

Otomodachi

2017-07-31, 05:35 PM

By that same logic, Belkar should be difficult to dominate , since he has comparable wisdom and intelligence and class levels. Yet Malack did so effortlessly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Two big factors that make a difference! One, rangers as a class don't get as good a willpower defense as bards- roughly half as good, at their level. So Belkar (assuming probably rightly that they have the same Wisdom stat minusing out) has a 20 or 25% LOWER chance of resisting.

Smaller but also worth pointing out is Malack wasn't a dwarf before being vampire. The lizard folk entry on the SRD has a base 10 as their charisma instead of an 8, so that's another 5% in favor of the vampire, in that scenario.

I'm not saying Elan can IGNORE the dominate, but he's not as vulnerable as Durkon implied, while still alive. Probably it was coloured by Durkon's impression of Elan as a childish moron. Which... well, YMMV! :)

Ehcks

2017-07-31, 05:48 PM

On the downside, Elan vs vampiric domination will probably be something akin to the life expectancy of a prawn cracker vs a sandblaster. :smallamused:

Now I don't get that part. Dominate is a CHA save, and that's easily Elan's best score, along with Will being his higher save.

Yeah, yeah, the story is more important than D&D rules, but I think at least someone in the party should be able to resist that. Elan doing it would be funny enough.

The MunchKING

2017-07-31, 06:16 PM

Now I don't get that part. Dominate is a CHA save, and that's easily Elan's best score, along with Will being his higher save.

CHA save in this case means it adds the Vampire's CHA to the save difficulty. It still uses Elan's WIS to resist it.

While Durkon had a low CHA (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), the others might not.

Also I can't recall if vampire-ing gives someone a CHA boost or not.

Yeah, yeah, the story is more important than D&D rules, but I think at least someone in the party should be able to resist that. Elan doing it would be funny enough.

It would also be pretty crazy-far from the D&D rules though, so while it would be FUNNY, it wouldn't make sense, and it definitely wouldn't be DRAMATIC.

Otomodachi

2017-07-31, 06:23 PM

CHA save in this case means it adds the Vampire's CHA to the save difficulty. It still uses Elan's WIS to resist it.

While Durkon had a low CHA (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), the others might not.

Also I can't recall if vampire-ing gives someone a CHA boost or not.

Becoming a full-on, non-"slave"-spawn vampire gives all KINDS of bonuses, including +4 Cha. But dwarves natively get -2, which dilutes that a bit.

You're right that the others MIGHT have better CHA stats. Charisma isn't SUPER useful to a cleric, but it DOES give them more turn undeads per day, so it'd be silly to just assume NONE of these clerics invested in that stat. Especially the halfling, if he's playing to type. They are also more likely to USE Dominate gaze attacks, because they're likely not as highly leveled as Durkon. Darkon is almost always going to be better off using his standard action-per-round casting a cleric spell as opposed to a middling gaze attack.

Someone mentioned earlier (sorry someone, I am tired and don't wanna go find you in the thread) that Durkon seems to be a bit unhealthily obsessed with "showing up" Roy. At the end of the day, THIS is probably going to be the Order's best tactical asset.

Iago

2017-07-31, 06:58 PM

Even better, Magic Circle Against Evil would affect many people and lasts 10 mins per level.

As a pre-emptive defensive spell, yes. However, as an offensive option, I would expect V (a 16th level Evoker) to use Sunburst. Long range, enormous 80-foot radius, 16d6 damage to vampires (save for only 8d6), and depending on your interpretation of whether vampires are vulnerable to bright light, kills them outright on a failed save. If V gets that off at the start of the fight, it could be straight to Miller Time.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm

Goblin_Priest

2017-07-31, 08:08 PM

Now I don't get that part. Dominate is a CHA save, and that's easily Elan's best score, along with Will being his higher save.

Yeah, yeah, the story is more important than D&D rules, but I think at least someone in the party should be able to resist that. Elan doing it would be funny enough.

Wha?

Dominate is as per the Dominate Person spell, which forces a will save, which is wisdom based.

Dominate (Su)

A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

Also, on gazes

An opponent can avert his eyes from the creature’s face, looking at the creature’s body, watching its shadow, or tracking the creature in a reflective surface. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance of not having to make a saving throw. The creature with the gaze attack gains concealment relative to the opponent. An opponent can shut his eyes, turn his back on the creature, or wear a blindfold. In these cases, the opponent does not need to make a saving throw. The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment relative to the opponent.

If Elan just wanted to buff, he could just turn his back to the vampires and do his support stuff.

What's the DC on that anyways? Dominate is a lvl 4 or 5 spell, depending on the spell list it is taken from. The Vampire Spawn entry says the save DC is charisma-based, but its stat block has 14 charisma and the DC is 14, which makes no sense. Are spell DCs not spell level + ability modifier?

Jasdoif

2017-07-31, 08:31 PM

What's the DC on that anyways? Dominate is a lvl 4 or 5 spell, depending on the spell list it is taken from. The Vampire Spawn entry says the save DC is charisma-based, but its stat block has 14 charisma and the DC is 14, which makes no sense. Are spell DCs not spell level + ability modifier?Standard DC for a special ability is 10 + half hit dice + ability modifier; vampire spawn have 4 hit dice, so that fits.

Otomodachi

2017-07-31, 08:54 PM

Standard DC for a special ability is 10 + half hit dice + ability modifier; vampire spawn have 4 hit dice, so that fits.

OMG, egg on my face and everything- YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT. All my math is off, on the "danger" of Dominate Gaze to Elan.

I take back EVERYTHING I said. With the +7 or so Durkon is getting from HD, and the +4 or so the rest of them are probably getting... That is DANGEROUS.

The MunchKING

2017-07-31, 10:56 PM

If Elan just wanted to buff, he could just turn his back to the vampires and do his support stuff.

And give them free backstabbing bonuses? :p

Quebbster

2017-08-01, 02:05 AM

Goblin_Priest

2017-08-01, 06:56 AM

And give them free backstabbing bonuses? :p

Partial to total concealment against him? Sure, why not. It only gives them a bonus on their melee attacks (if he lets them get close and if they waste their time doing so) and on attack roll spells (typically ranged touch attacks that are almost sure to hit anyways). They aren't rogues, after all, it's not like it would suddenly give them +10d6 to every attack.

The MunchKING

2017-08-01, 09:10 AM

Partial to total concealment against him? Sure, why not. It only gives them a bonus on their melee attacks (if he lets them get close and if they waste their time doing so) and on attack roll spells (typically ranged touch attacks that are almost sure to hit anyways). They aren't rogues, after all, it's not like it would suddenly give them +10d6 to every attack.

My point was clunking him over the head with a mace will take him out of the fight as surely as Dominate. And it would mean he can't hit ANYONE, because he won't know where they are, so yeah, that's going to limit his bardic healing too.

Goblin_Priest

2017-08-01, 09:50 AM

My point was clunking him over the head with a mace will take him out of the fight as surely as Dominate. And it would mean he can't hit ANYONE, because he won't know where they are, so yeah, that's going to limit his bardic healing too.

Turning your back to the vampire(s) doesn't make you blind. It just gives total concealment for the vampire(s). Averting one's eyes gives only partial concealment, and gives a 50% chance to avoid making a save altogether.

Low to mid level clerics with partial to total concealment wielding maces are not a huge threat to Elan or anyone else in the OotS. They'd need to greatly buff themselves before even being mildly effective in melee combat. And them meleeing Elan means all the other (typically more effective) martials can retaliate with impunity.

And even if he were made blind (closing one's eyes, for example), Inspire Courage does not require sight, nor does Inspire Greatness or Inspire Heroics. A number of spells can be cast without sight. And even spells that would typically use sight for targeting can still be attempted. And besides, most of his spells and abilities that would require sight on the victim are mind-affecting, which undead are immune to.

But there's really no reason to close his eyes.

If he was really at that much of a risk from Dominate, V could just cast Magic Circle Against Evil on him.

The MunchKING

2017-08-01, 10:01 AM

Turning your back to the vampire(s) doesn't make you blind. It just gives total concealment for the vampire(s). Averting one's eyes gives only partial concealment, and gives a 50% chance to avoid making a save altogether.

You're right about that. I was reading the rules and going with the "shut eyes or wear a blindfold" bit.

Low to mid level clerics with partial to total concealment wielding maces are not a huge threat to Elan or anyone else in the OotS. They'd need to greatly buff themselves before even being mildly effective in melee combat. And them meleeing Elan means all the other (typically more effective) martials can retaliate with impunity.

Depends on how "Low level" the clerics are. I mean one of them was the Exarch of the whole religion, and angry-chick could cast Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1085.html). I'm thinking they are reasonably high-level clerics. And that was before they got the Vampire buffs.

And even if he were made blind (closing one's eyes, for example), Inspire Courage does not require sight, nor does Inspire Greatness or Inspire Heroics.

Nope, but we've seen how useful those songs are in Elan's case. (Not Very)

A number of spells can be cast without sight. And even spells that would typically use sight for targeting can still be attempted.

Well any spell that requires a touch or target (like his healing) would have a high automatic miss chance even if he could target the right hex.

jidasfire

2017-08-01, 10:03 AM

In a toe-to-toe fight, even for all their raw power, I think the vampires are at a disadvantage. Roy proved he was tough enough alone to put their leader on the defensive in an actual sustained melee. However, I don't think it's going to come to that. No, the smart thing is for the vampires to play sneaky and dirty, which is something they as a species happen to be good at. The smart move in such a battle would be to summon hordes of beasts through innate abilities and devils through spells, as well as dominate not the Order, but as many innocents as they possibly can to slow the Order down, all while engaging in hit and run tactics of biting or casting and then misting away before fatal amounts of damage can be done. Also, we can probably assume that since Durkon had access to Holy Word, his vampire equivalent has the reverse, so could at the very least disorient the Order with that. We know vampire Durkon is a powerful cleric, and we can assume Gontor is as well, while the other two are probably weaker clerics. Still, even given my somewhat limited knowledge of how to game magical systems, there is a reason clerics are a feared class, and I think it's this skillset, on top of being vampires, that will allow them to make the upcoming battle with the Order into a living nightmare.

Jasdoif

2017-08-01, 02:42 PM

If Elan just wanted to buff, he could just turn his back to the vampires and do his support stuff.I'm pretty sure we're not using the optional facing rules, though.
If you're going to get into the technicalities of D&D 3.5 rules, then technically, there is no such thing as "having your back turned."

Drew's Alias

2017-08-01, 03:49 PM

By SRD, Vampire dominate functions equivalent to the Spell Dominate Person, so Song of Freedom, which functions as Break Enchantment, should be sufficient to dispel the dominion.

Unless Elan himself is dominated, of course. A challenge not akin to smashing a glass jar with a rock :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.I keep seeing everyone suggest this, but I don't see it. Yes, Elan has a wisdom penalty, but he's a high level bard with full will save progression. Even with his 1 or 2 point penalty, Elan will have a better will save then Haley and Belkar, and is probably about on par with Roy.

pendell

2017-08-01, 04:42 PM

I keep seeing everyone suggest this, but I don't see it. Yes, Elan has a wisdom penalty, but he's a high level bard with full will save progression. Even with his 1 or 2 point penalty, Elan will have a better will save then Haley and Belkar, and is probably about on par with Roy.

Okay, let's math it out. I'll use the numbers from Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485983-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIV-We-are-the-Geek-Pantheon)

Elan: Level 14+, Wisdom < 10.

Let's assume Wisdom 9, level 14.
Durkon is level 14 -- and he's going to still execute dominate person as a level 14, isn't he? He has some ECL plus levels because of the vampire template, but that's only for calculating CR, right? It doesn't impact the level of his gaze?

So -- wisdom 9 gives us a modifier of -1.

HPOH, meanwhile, has level 14 and a charisma boost. -2 for being a dwarf, +4 for being a vampire, for a total of +2, right?

So ... the check for a saving throw against a spell is 10+the level of the spell+the cleric's charisma modifier. According to the entry for vampire in SRD, the level of the gaze attack is 12, despite the HPOH's class level being higher SO that gives us

DC 10 + 12 + 2 = 24.

So what about Elan? He's got a will save of +9 at level 14 as a bard. Take away 1 for charisma, that gives us +8.

DC 24 - 8 = DC 16.

So he has to roll 16 or better on a d20. 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 -- that's 5 faces on a 20-sided die.

So I calculate he has a 25% chance -- one out of 4 -- of successfully making a will save against the HPOH's gaze attack.

I have shown my work. I invite checking, feedback, and correction.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Chei

2017-08-01, 04:55 PM

I'm pretty sure we're meant to assume from that Greater Dispel Magic cast on the door that all of those vampires, including the ones that haven't explicitly shown any abilities, are high-level clerics. That one Halfling vampire should not be just a spawn, if only because we saw Roy mowing them down earlier. Inverse ninja rules and what not say that these remaining four are the real deal. I know that's going by Elan rules of drama and not reason, but I wouldn't bet against it.

I think the dwarven population is going to come into play here in Firmament in a big way, not least because we know a temple of clerics is still thankfully alive. I could see V or another member like Elan being tied up (figuratively) by dominated dwarves that the Order would be unwilling to kill. In fact, if I were Durkula, I'd put one of those vampires on that job right now. Build up a sizable force of dwarves. They don't even need to be warriors; innocent people would be almost as good a deterrent, plus valuable hostages. Durkula should know how heroes work.

A "safe" battleground would be something like a mine or the like, which would seriously harm the heroes if collapsed but be far more navigable to a cloud of gas. Incidentally, an underground room lit only by smoky torches would be a good place to hide in plain sight for an ambush, but I expect the Order would be wise to that now.

luagha

2017-08-01, 05:38 PM

mikelibrarian

2017-08-01, 06:09 PM

Even better, Magic Circle Against Evil would affect many people and lasts 10 mins per level.

Even if Varsuvius has it in her spell book, it may be slightly less robust.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html

pendell

2017-08-01, 06:19 PM

I have an idea. Can Elan perform a song that will boost everyone's Will saving throw? That would enable him to participate in the battle as a useful member while nullifying the gaze, and perhaps other issues as well.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Chei

2017-08-01, 06:53 PM

Against vampires in general, start with Greater Dispel Magic to remove their Protection from Sunlight special-spell, then Vaarsuvius hits them with a 8th level Sunburst. It has an incredibly wide area, and if a vampire fails the save it's an instant kill. (And clerics have bad reflex saves.) The HPoH only has the one staff with the spell on it, plus his own memorizations; a blanket Dispel may get several minions and then clear them off the board while the HPoH puts up his defense again. Unfortunately, V probably only has one of those - but it's an evocation and he's an evocation specialist, so he could have two.

As for Haley, I'm surprised no one mentioned the most obvious use of her archery capabilities - called shots to stake the heart. Whatever rules one intends to use for such things it would be a difficult shot and would probably require some kind of set-up or method that holds one of the minions still for her to line up dramatic shot, but there it is. To say nothing of Belkar with a stake in each hand two-weaponing for five called shot possibilities.

Clerics have bad Reflex saves, but vampires get a +4 from the base creature (+2 Dex Modifier, +2 from Lightning Reflexes). That said, I approve of the tactic. Its only weakness is that V will be the primary target for that GDM round, and four Flame Strikes would put them down.

I think if Elan was willing to sink a bunch of charges from his CMW wand, he could do some substantial damage to the lesser vampires - more than his rapier damage, at least. Or, he could relegate the wand to healing only and burn his spell slots on offensive healing, which would let him use his far superior caster level and Cha bonus for the saves.

Elan using Cure Critical Wounds would put him at about third place among the party in terms of damage-dealing.

luagha

2017-08-01, 08:34 PM

There's also a rarely-used spell called 'Halt Undead.' Holds three undead motionless (intelligent undead get a save, they come free upon taking damage.) It's a good set-up for a staking attempt.

Jasdoif

2017-08-02, 11:58 AM

Durkon is level 14 -- and he's going to still execute dominate person as a level 14, isn't he? He has some ECL plus levels because of the vampire template, but that's only for calculating CR, right? It doesn't impact the level of his gaze?ECL and CR measure different things; but his actual levels are the only thing that are going to influence his options, yes. (ECL only really effects how much experience he'll get if he overcomes the encounter)

HPOH, meanwhile, has level 14 and a charisma boost. -2 for being a dwarf, +4 for being a vampire, for a total of +2, right?

So ... the check for a saving throw against a spell is 10+the level of the spell+the cleric's charisma modifier. According to the entry for vampire in SRD, the level of the gaze attack is 12, despite the HPOH's class level being higher SO that gives us

DC 10 + 12 + 2 = 24....no. First, feel free to throw a random edible object at WotC for using "spell level" and "caster level" as terms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) so close together :smalltongue: The effect works similarly to dominate person cast as a 12th level caster, meaning it'll last twelve days without the vampire needing to renew it. The spell level would depend on which class list it was being cast as a spell from...well, except we're not talking about casting a spell or using a spell-like ability here.

Domination is a supernatural special attack. As explicitly mentioned in the template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), all of the vampire special attacks that have saves have a save DC of 10 + half hit dice + Charisma modifier. (Basicially they didn't want to say "The save DC is Charisma-based" a bunch of times so they put that right under "Special Attacks" when they wrote it).

And finally, you'd apply the Charisma modifier, which is half of (Charisma-10), rounded down.

So with your assumptions, that's

10 + 7 (half of 14) + 1 (Cha modifier).

For a DC of 18.

So what about Elan? He's got a will save of +9 at level 14 as a bard. Take away 1 for charisma, that gives us +8.I'm guessing you mean -1 for an optimistic guess of his Wisdom, there?

Anyway, assuming the Dashing Swordsman class doesn't have a good Will save progression and Elan only has one or two levels in it, that sounds about right.

So, DC 18 on a 1d20+8 roll....Elan passes on 10 or higher, so 55% chance he succeeds, so 45% chance he fails. Dominating Elan is doable, to be sure, but probably not something to expect to work with only a single vampire trying it.

pendell

2017-08-02, 12:59 PM

I'm guessing you mean -1 for an optimistic guess of his Wisdom, there?

Correct. We've seen evidence wisdom of lower than 10 so I chose wisdom 9 because it's the most optimistic scenario in this case. If his wisdom was 4 or so the numbers would be a little different, so I'm looking at a best-case scenario.

So, DC 18 on a 1d20+8 roll....Elan passes on 10 or higher, so 55% chance he succeeds, so 45% chance he fails. Dominating Elan is doable, to be sure, but probably not something to expect to work with only a single vampire trying it.

Hm... I'll concede a 45% of failing his save versus domination. But a vampire can do this once per round on an unlimited basis, can he not? So that means we should have elan dominated in approximately 2-3 rounds -- provided the vamp is able to spend his action during those rounds on that alone, which he probably won't. V and Roy are the greatest threats here.

So I'll concede Elan will probably be able to keep his will for at least some of the early fight, because the vampires will be trying to take out the higher level threats first. So it's not as bad for him as I had thought.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Jasdoif

2017-08-02, 02:06 PM

Hm... I'll concede a 45% of failing his save versus domination. But a vampire can do this once per round on an unlimited basis, can he not? So that means we should have elan dominated in approximately 2-3 rounds -- provided the vamp is able to spend his action during those rounds on that alone, which he probably won't. V and Roy are the greatest threats here.There's no reason only one vampire can be trying to dominate Elan at a time. Going after Haley might be easier (I seriously doubt she's carting around average-or-worse Wisdom), but Elan's a high value target: he's got spellcasting, and if he gets the chance to start a bard song for the Order the effects will last at least five rounds...which could outlast the encounter itself. (And no; those songs are mind-affecting, so they won't work on the undead vampires)

I suspect the Vampiric Cabal's only shot at winning this battle requires both neutralizing Vaarusuvius, and aiding HPoH more than the Order aids Roy. Which is still a tall order, of course, but one that can be worked towards; and keeping Roy from getting boosted is working towards it.

Chei

2017-08-02, 03:22 PM

That's definitely their best bet, which is why it won't be what they do. My guess is that Durkula wants to rub some more "heroic guilt" into Roy's face, by mostly targeting the other members, before actually killing him. If I was him, I definitely wouldn't want an open battle. Hit-and-run and attrition tactics are a vampire's natural forte, to say nothing of the fact that they're all undead clerics. Fighting in the main hall of Thor's temple is a recipe for failure. Mineshafts and low-light tunnels are where it's at. Like over half the current Order is human.

Jasdoif

2017-08-02, 04:22 PM

That's definitely their best bet, which is why it won't be what they do.Or alternatively, exactly why it will be what they do. A fast victory against the undead monster holding Durkon's body and soul hostage isn't going to be narratively satisfying; nor is a drawn-out one-sided battle. It's got to look like both sides have a good chance of winning, trading small victories on either side, up until Durkon's efforts pay off and HPoH screws up his chances of victory and everything follows from there.

So the first part is the Vampiric Cabal starting with a plan that could conceivably work :smalltongue: And if the IFCC decides to take Vaarsuvius out of the fight rather than risk Vaarsuvius being killed at this juncture, the Vampiric Cabal isn't going to have much opportunity to question their good fortune; it'll have the same short-term effect on the battle without the long-term consequences on the story. Convenient!

pendell

2017-08-02, 04:52 PM

There's no reason only one vampire can be trying to dominate Elan at a time.

True, but the issue is that the other vampires probably do not have the HPOH's level and hit dice. The one impersonating Guntar (or whatever the stone high priest's name is) is probably comparable to the HPOH, but the other two are probably lower level and will have more problems trying to dominate Elan.

And while they are doing this, what are they doing about the rest of the Order?

I'm just not seeing how they have time in the first few rounds to dominate Elan and have some convincing line of attack against Roy and V. What I'd want to do in their shoes is to see if I could find a way to dominate him before the battle even started.

Maybe guerrilla tactics are the way to go -- pick off one weak-willed member at a time using domination, have a light pre-battle snack, then go into action against the main force.

The only problem with that plan is that it leaves Vaarsuvius free to act and that is never a good idea when facing a high-level wizard.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Chei

2017-08-02, 05:18 PM

Or alternatively, exactly why it will be what they do. A fast victory against the undead monster holding Durkon's body and soul hostage isn't going to be narratively satisfying; nor is a drawn-out one-sided battle. It's got to look like both sides have a good chance of winning, trading small victories on either side, up until Durkon's efforts pay off and HPoH screws up his chances of victory and everything follows from there.

I don't think either team is going to roll the dice quite as intelligently as you and others have predicted :smalltongue:. I am, however, very interested in the idea of the Fiends putting V down for, what was it, about 3 minutes? To save their life. That's one of those forward-thinking villain moves that makes me like those jerks so much. Also, we might get hints about what Sabine has been up to for the last week or two.

I'm hyped to see how Durkon gets out of this. Or at least gets the vampire put down. Heck, maybe Durkon's been the one fostering all this hatred the vampire has for Roy in preparation for goading him into a costly tactical overreach. Well, another costly tactical overreach.

luagha

2017-08-02, 06:23 PM

Oh, and since someone mentioned the use of darkness, I should mention that Sunburst is an 8th level Evocation (Light) spell, and counters and dispels all Darkness spells of equal or lower level within its area.

Jasdoif

2017-08-02, 06:39 PM

I'm just not seeing how they have time in the first few rounds to dominate Elan and have some convincing line of attack against Roy and V.Well the time part is easy enough if they pull off an ambush: HPoH hits Vaarsuvius with destruction (and Vaarsuvius is either obliterated or the IFCC intercedes), the first or second of TNDV/Exarch/VTSA dominates Belkar before he has a chance to activate his protection item, the rest try to dominate Elan....And that's just the surprise round; being vampires they'll have the Dexterity boost and the bonus Improved Initiative feat; they have an excellent chance of going first in the normal round of combat too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html). HPoH moves to engage Roy, and TNDV/Exarch/VTSA try to dominate Elan or Haley.

The odds of it going that way so cleanly are rather slim, but they can't help that. They're outnumbered and outleveled. They'd love to have had the chance to quit while they were ahead, as that would mean they were ahead at some point. :smalltongue: As the scenario is, though, trying to maximize their chance of success and hoping it works out is what they've got to work with. And they're on an undeadline; they're there to rig the Godsmoot tiebreaker, and if they spend too much time or too many spells on the Order to pull that off...they're even bigger still losers.

As for dominate DCs....
TNDV cast greater dispel magic and is therefore at least 11th level, and not a dwarf so she lacks the Charisma penalty; she could well be able to dominate as well as HPoH can.
The Exarch isn't going to be that much lower level than HPoH, a five-or-ten percentage point difference isn't going to be a deal breaker.
VTSA is a vampire spawn: she has four hit dice, didn't retain her spellcasting, and would lose a melee competition with any of the Order (including Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing)*; attempting her lower-DC dominate against one of the much-higher-level Order members is probably the only meaningful action she can attempt.

* Okay, an actual melee one-on-one against Mr. Scruffy or Blackwing would drag on but ultimately result in a victory for VTSA, since she has damage reduction and fast healing. But she'd need a roll of 16 or higher to hit either of them; melee is not going to be an effective use of her time.

The MunchKING

2017-08-02, 10:24 PM

Well with everything except Magic, wouldn't turning into a gaseous form and hovering out of range of everyone's attacks, but in range of their vampire powers/Cleric Magic work pretty well?

I mean Hailey might get lucky with the Icy Burst, but other than that, I wouldn't think any of the fighting people could do anything about it. Then they focus firepower on V to keep Magic from hitting them, and then grind the rest of the Order of the Stick down with Attrition.

Jasdoif

2017-08-02, 10:40 PM

Well with everything except Magic, wouldn't turning into a gaseous form and hovering out of range of everyone's attacks, but in range of their vampire powers/Cleric Magic work pretty well?The gaseous form ability works as the gaseous form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm) spell; they couldn't attack, use their supernatural vampire abilities, or cast spells with verbal/somatic/material/focus components.

The MunchKING

2017-08-02, 11:54 PM

The gaseous form ability works as the gaseous form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm) spell; they couldn't attack, use their supernatural vampire abilities, or cast spells with verbal/somatic/material/focus components.

Oh. Never mind then, that would be quite stupid of them.

Goblin_Priest

2017-08-03, 08:13 AM

I still don't really feel like Elan is even all the important in such a said fight (just tips the favors even more in their favor), much less that vampires dominating him would be much of a game changer.

drazen

2017-08-03, 09:20 AM

Elan doesn't have a weapon to do it with, though.

Also, the vampires can heal themselves/each other pretty much at will, whereas the Order collectively only has a handful of spell slots available for healing. The longer the fight drags out, the more the advantage will slide toward Team Hel, and that's before you take potential dominations into account. Roy is unusually resistant for his class, and Vaarsuvius has a solid Will save - but Elan and Haley are one second of eye contact each away from dancing on puppet strings, and Belkar needs to subject himself to constant harm to avoid joining them.

Why is Haley considered weak-willed? Other than Durkon's off-hand comment, which obviously referred to Elan and Belkar as those most likely to be dominated, what about Haley makes her susceptible to this? She seems to be fairly strong-willed (metaphorically, if not statistically) in her own right. And unlike Roy, Elan, or Belkar, I do not recall seeing Haley (along with Durkon or Vaarsuvius) ever being mesmerized by a mind-affecting enemy. I'm not a D&D player or RPG player (other than a few computer RPG's: Wizardry, Tunnels of Doom, and Kingdom of Loathing, but none of them for many years), I just enjoy the story. So I looked up Rogue will saves via Google, and according to the chart, Haley's is at least +5 at 15th/16th level. Class and level geekery has no Wisdom score for her, but she has generally conducted herself quite shrewdly, other than when Nale was impersonating Elan.

Chei

2017-08-03, 11:07 AM

Well, +5 at level 15 is a pretty bad progression. As folks here have noted, a bard like Elan has a good progression and a +9 base save at his estimated level. I do think that, story-wise, Haley would be harder to dominate than Elan, so it might be prudent to leave those numbers aside (Haley is confirmed to not have the 20+ Wisdom score she'd need to have a Will save stronger than Elan's base). With all that said, Roy's Will save has been talked up quite a bit, and he was shown having trouble, especially after a level drain or two.

If I was going to point to an example of Haley being 'weak-willed' enough to fall to the vampire gaze, it wouldn't be the not-nale fiasco but the general breakdown where she couldn't speak for however many dozens of pages. That was a long time ago and she has had character development since then.

luagha

2017-08-03, 11:16 AM

Reddish Mage

2017-08-03, 11:18 AM

Gaseous Form is great against Roy, but theoretically Vaarsuvius should still be able to damage them with magic. And if he can out damage their fast healing, they should die at 0 hp because no coffins.

I thought Roy demonstrated he can damage vampires in gaseous form when his sword glows, and now that Roy knows how to use his sword (and can throw it and recall it), gaseous form is probably a tactical error that just wastes actions.

Chei

2017-08-03, 11:38 AM

VTSA is a vampire spawn: she has four hit dice, didn't retain her spellcasting, and would lose a melee competition with any of the Order (including Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing)*; attempting her lower-DC dominate against one of the much-higher-level Order members is probably the only meaningful action she can attempt.

I mean I agree there's room for her to be a spawn since she hasn't cast a spell on-screen, but on the first panel of #1086 she says "Master, we already tried scrying inside." I take this to indicate that she and the non-dwarf vampire did so between pages. Unless "we" has taken on a new meaning of "she did it while I watched", she must be capable of some kind of scrying spell, which makes her a full vampire.

Jasdoif

2017-08-03, 11:51 AM

I mean I agree there's room for her to be a spawn since she hasn't cast a spell on-screen, but on the first panel of #1086 she says "Master, we already tried scrying inside." I take this to indicate that she and the non-dwarf vampire did so between pages. Unless "we" has taken on a new meaning of "she did it while I watched", she must be capable of some kind of scrying spell, which makes her a full vampire.One, it's probably the mildest assumption I made just so I'd have something to brainstorm potential tactics from :smalltongue:

Two, "we" could just as easily refer to the Vampiric Cabal as a whole.

Chei

2017-08-03, 12:19 PM

One, it's probably the mildest assumption I made just so I'd have something to brainstorm potential tactics from :smalltongue:

Two, "we" could just as easily refer to the Vampiric Cabal as a whole.

It could refer to the coven, sure, if we didn't know that one member was arguing with his dwarf and the other was arguing with a door. :smallbiggrin:

Even assuming VTSA did have any scrying spells, I don't even know enough about Divination to tell what the popular spells are, and therefore how powerful she might be. For all I know she cast some limp level 3 spell and is literally just 5 HD rather than 4.

Jasdoif

2017-08-03, 12:58 PM

It could refer to the coven, sure, if we didn't know that one member was arguing with his dwarf and the other was arguing with a door. :smallbiggrin:If you assume they didn't try scrying until after the runestone crumbled, sure. :smalltongue:

Even assuming VTSA did have any scrying spells, I don't even know enough about Divination to tell what the popular spells are, and therefore how powerful she might be. For all I know she cast some limp level 3 spell and is literally just 5 HD rather than 4.The basic scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) would require 9 levels for a cleric...and also take an hour to cast. Greater scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scryingGreater.htm) would only take a standard action to cast, but also require 13 levels for a cleric. As in, HPoH would be the one casting it (under my earlier linked assumptions that he's the minimum 13th it'd take to explain the spells we've seen him cast) and dedicating one of his highest-level spell slots to it. I suppose it's possible, particularly if he cast it before refreshing spells at dusk (as in, he had it prepared on Godsmoot day on the assumption he wouldn't need the slot for anything or anyone else)...but in that case we're back at it happening well before the door debate :smalltongue:

Chei

2017-08-03, 01:36 PM

If you assume they didn't try scrying until after the runestone crumbled, sure. :smalltongue:

I do, in fact.

The basic scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) would require 9 levels for a cleric...and also take an hour to cast. Greater scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scryingGreater.htm) would only take a standard action to cast, but also require 13 levels for a cleric. As in, HPoH would be the one casting it (under my earlier linked assumptions that he's the minimum 13th it'd take to explain the spells we've seen him cast) and dedicating one of his highest-level spell slots to it. I suppose it's possible, particularly if he cast it before refreshing spells at dusk (as in, he had it prepared on Godsmoot day on the assumption he wouldn't need the slot for anything or anyone else)...but in that case we're back at it happening well before the door debate :smalltongue:

As much as it amuses me to imagine Ex-Arch railing at a door for over an hour, I concede that it probably didn't happen between pages. Perhaps the coven tried scrying the temple before they began their assault on the outside, in which case this would indeed be the full four-membered 'we'. Even then, I don't feel like the vampires will dedicate a full hour to scrying. They're in a rush. I think it's possible that 1. the Scrying spell is a standard action in the OOTS-verse, like Break Enchantment, or 2. scrying is a general term for a larger list of divination spells, making it impossible to pin down the actual spell.

KorvinStarmast

2017-08-03, 02:00 PM

The HPoH only has the one staff with the spell on it, plus his own memorizations; No he doesn't. It was snapped over Roy's knee.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html)

unbeliever536

2017-08-04, 01:03 AM

As much as it amuses me to imagine Ex-Arch railing at a door for over an hour, I concede that it probably didn't happen between pages. Perhaps the coven tried scrying the temple before they began their assault on the outside, in which case this would indeed be the full four-membered 'we'. Even then, I don't feel like the vampires will dedicate a full hour to scrying. They're in a rush. I think it's possible that 1. the Scrying spell is a standard action in the OOTS-verse, like Break Enchantment, or 2. scrying is a general term for a larger list of divination spells, making it impossible to pin down the actual spell.

They know they've got a day or so at least until the Order shows up, and the council isn't even present yet. They can easily spare an hour to (try to) figure out if the place where they want to set their big ambush is actually usable for that purpose.

Storm_Of_Snow

2017-08-04, 04:28 AM

They know they've got a day or so at least until the Order shows up, and the council isn't even present yet. They can easily spare an hour to (try to) figure out if the place where they want to set their big ambush is actually usable for that purpose.
The Mechane's arriving at Firmament before midnight - as per Hel's comment to Durkula in the third panel of #1084.

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned as an option is what Durkon was going to use in Girard's Pyramid - Planar Ally.

Chei

2017-08-04, 10:20 AM

The Mechane's arriving at Firmament before midnight - as per Hel's comment to Durkula in the third panel of #1084.

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned as an option is what Durkon was going to use in Girard's Pyramid - Planar Ally.

That has come up in a previous chapter's thread, I believe. A few people who posited that Durkula might have 8th-level spells suggested that his best use for them would be to use Create Greater Undead or Greater Planar Ally.

Drew's Alias

2017-08-09, 01:56 AM

Okay, let's math it out. I'll use the numbers from :Link:

Elan: Level 14+, Wisdom < 10.

Let's assume Wisdom 9, level 14.
Durkon is level 14 -- and he's going to still execute dominate person as a level 14, isn't he? He has some ECL plus levels because of the vampire template, but that's only for calculating CR, right? It doesn't impact the level of his gaze?

So -- wisdom 9 gives us a modifier of -1.

HPOH, meanwhile, has level 14 and a charisma boost. -2 for being a dwarf, +4 for being a vampire, for a total of +2, right?

So ... the check for a saving throw against a spell is 10+the level of the spell+the cleric's charisma modifier. According to the entry for vampire in SRD, the level of the gaze attack is 12, despite the HPOH's class level being higher SO that gives us

DC 10 + 12 + 2 = 24.

So what about Elan? He's got a will save of +9 at level 14 as a bard. Take away 1 for charisma, that gives us +8.

DC 24 - 8 = DC 16.

So he has to roll 16 or better on a d20. 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 -- that's 5 faces on a 20-sided die.

So I calculate he has a 25% chance -- one out of 4 -- of successfully making a will save against the HPOH's gaze attack.

I have shown my work. I invite checking, feedback, and correction.

Respectfully,

Brian P.I think you may have missed my point. Elan has been described as the weakest link against spells requiring a will save despite having a full save progression paired with a relatively paltry wisdom penalty. My point is not that he will save against Durkon, but that he is more likely to save than Haley (if she took slippery mind, she'll just get the opportunity to fail her saving throw twice) or Belkar. If Roy has taken Iron Will (probable), his saves are likely a bit better than Elan's saves. If he hasn't, than his own saves will be about on par.

Do that same work on the Roy, Haley, and Belkar, and let me know if you still think Elan is the one we need to worry about failing his save.

Storm_Of_Snow

2017-08-09, 04:33 AM

We've already seen Roy resist the effects of Durkula's domination (by level he's up at +4, maybe +5 on will save, but has a decent Wis and should probably have a circumstance bonus if it's tried again), and Belkar's got his magical protection, so should be immune.

Haley could well be susceptible (for reference, Haley's will save modifier will also be about +5, and the C&L thread doesn't mention her wisdom, so probably average and no modifier), but Elan can break it with Song of Freedom, while dominating Elan stops that and makes it easier to shut down Haley and any other allies in subsequent rounds. Plus there's a chance Haley would react emotionally and go away from whatever plan Roy's worked out if Elan's dominated (and yes, Elan would probably have a higher chance of doing so, but SoF still applies).

It's also likely that as an archer/wand user, Haley will be out of domination range - Elan's either fighting in melee, or close to Roy and Belkar to boost their abilities with bardic song, so more likely to be in range.

So yes, we probably should worry more about Elan failing his save than the rest of the order.

luagha

2017-08-14, 05:29 PM

As per today's strip, two 8th level Mind Blanks means only one possible Sunburst in the evocation specialist slot.

Sermil

2017-08-14, 09:27 PM

Chei

2017-08-14, 11:04 PM

So, what do people think about V casting one of the Mind Blanks on vimself? On the one hand, V seems like ve would be pretty difficult to dominate, and so doesn't really need the protection. On the other hand, given V's power level, having V dominated would "Game over, man"-level bad. Maybe it's better to protect your most valuable unit a little than a less-valuable unit a lot.

And who should V cast the second Mind Blank on? What's the tactically best option? Roy since he has the sword-of-green-flaming-vampire-death? Elan since he's (storywise) the least likely to resist (esp. if Belkar has his protection charm)?

I'm sort of of the opinion that the Mind Blanks are essentially wastes of spell slots that ensure V can't just roll in and butcher the vampires with Sunburst. From my perspective, the use of an 8th-level spell just to get past the dominating gaze, which is basically the barrier to entry to fight any vampire at all, is an enormous waste.

I think the second Mind Blank won't actually be cast at the expected time and place. I think the dwarves will offer some protection good enough that Roy asks V to hold it in reserve. Then something will happen where it comes in handy in an unexpected way - Mind Blank is an 8th-level spell and can nullify a lot more than a vampire's gaze.