Give me ideas for an anti-mage monk

[King of Nowhere]

Ok, I know, monks suck.

I also know that no matter how well I build an anti-mage monk, a sufficiently prepared caster will still mop the floor with me.

I don't care. We're not at one of those hyperoptimized tables anyway. And I got all those backstory ideas pointing to a monk who wants to fight wizards. ok, I'm sure those of you who had played dozens of characters will find them terribly cliched. Heck, they involve a killed family, and even I find that cliche. It involves sleeping on rough stones and wearing sandpaper panties in the name of stoicism and self-discipline, which cracks me up but I'm sure some of you already saw done several times; I learned that no matter how cool and original or just crazy and funny your idea may be, you'll always discover someone else had the same idea before.

Anyway, enough introduction. I want to build an anti-mage monk. We are not terribly optimized. We are mostly restricted to core, but only because of the lack of manuals; if I show something to the DM, most likely it will be allowed. So I prefer suggestions that are available on the internet, so I could link them to the DM.

Now, the way I see it, I should have enough damage to take a caster once I get in melee. Especially if I can make a grapple (I will take the relevant feat) or trip (again, monks can choose to get that feat for free) or use the stunning fist, which bypasses most immunities. And at high levels my fists will count as adamantine weapons, which should bypass damage reduction from stoneskin. main problem is to reach the caster in the first place.

I can use fast movement and tumble to make sure to always target the caster. I will need something to fly when I hit level 5 or so. I will get to dimension door once per day to bypass force walls, but I'd like more daily uses in case they cast forecage twice. Of course some way to see invisibility is mandatory. Monks have high saving throws, but against somebody who invested heavily on their casting stat, they give no better than 50% chance of saving, so I'll want to keep them as buffed as I can too. My hit roll will need some love, even at level 20 I may have troubles hitting a cleric in heavy armor. That's all I can think for now, and (except for the buffing of saves and flying, which can be done straightforwardly) I'm not really sure how to do the rest. Suggestions are welcome

[DMVerdandi]

Wait, so you use magic items?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok. You want the mage slayer line. 2 levels of fighter help you get there. 2 levels of swordsage for shadowhand teleports keeps you relevant in mid levels.

[King of Nowhere]

Wait, so you use magic items?

yes, even though I think those kind of shortcuts to power encourage complacency. I will have to compensate by wearing coarser sandpaper for panties. Maybe kneel on chickpeas a bit longer too.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How powerful are the mages you're planning on slaying?

[Psyren]

3.5 or Pathfinder?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Assuming 3.5, you might want to take the Mage Slayer feats from Complete Arcane; Pierce Magical Concealment is especially helpful for spells like Mirror Image.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Start as azurin with a level in ranger with Favoured Enemy (arcanists), taking Shape Soulmeld (Planar Ward) as starting feat, along with Power Attack, and Great Fortitude with a flaw (maybe Meager Fortitude?). Then take a level in City Brawler Whirling Frenzy/'crafty hunter' barbarian, with either Spirit Lion Totem or Spirit Bear Totem, and continue with paladin 2 (Anarch variant) with UE variant, taking Mage Slayer at level 3. Then take a level in 'swift and deadly hunter' druid and Fist of the Forest, with Pierce Magical Concealment as 6th-level feat, and continue that PrC.

Over a total of six levels, that gets you:

Favoured Enemy (arcanists) (ranger).
Track (ranger).
Shape Soulmeld (Planar Ward): immunity to possession and mental control, including [charm] and [compulsion] effects.
Power Attack.
Improved Unarmed Strike (barbarian).
Two-Weapon Fighting while using unarmed attacks (barbarian).
Whirling Frenzy or +1 Favoured Enemy (barbarian).
Pounce or Improved Grab.
+1 Favoured Enemy (paladin).
Mage Slayer.
Divine Grace (paladin).
+1 Favoured Enemy (druid).
WIS to AC (druid).
Animal companion (druid).
Druid casting.
Druid spell trigger items.
Ranger spell trigger items.
Paladin spell trigger items.
CON to AC (fist of the forest).
1d8 unarmed damage, same as monk 6 (fist of the forest).
Fast Movement (fist of the forest).
Pierce Magical Concealment.


Because you get so many Favoured Enemies, you should have +6 or +8 bonus against arcanists (depending on barbarian ACF choice). You're a master of unarmed and unarmoured combat, you have high saves, good grappling ability, even a flanking partner as well, though a squishy one (maybe best to take a scouting bird of some sort). Fist of the Forest carries the Primal Living downside, which is technically an (Ex) ability you can get rid of (trait removal, but no DM lets that fly), so you might want to replace it with something else.

Continuing from this, a level of swordsage is great, and a level of totemist or incarnate might make good use of your azurin essentia. The Planar Ward ability isn't bad, though (+1 on saves versus extraplanar creatures' Su/Sp abilities).

Race-wise, karsites are great for anti-magic flavour, though you lose your first-level druid spells, and it takes +2 LA. Good with buyoff, though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Start as azurin with a level in ranger with Favoured Enemy (arcanists), taking Shape Soulmeld (Planar Ward) as starting feat, along with Power Attack, and Great Fortitude with a flaw (maybe Meager Fortitude?). Then take a level in City Brawler Whirling Frenzy barbarian, with either Spirit Lion Totem or Spirit Bear Totem or 'crafty hunter', and continue with paladin 2 with UE variant, taking Mage Slayer at level 3. Then take a level in 'swift and deadly hunter' druid and Fist of the Forest, with Pierce Magical Concealment as 6th-level feat, and continue that PrC.

Over a total of six levels, that gets you:

Favoured Enemy (arcanists) (ranger).
Track (ranger).
Shape Soulmeld (Planar Ward): immunity to possession and mental control, including [charm] and [compulsion] effects.
Power Attack.
Improved Unarmed Strike (barbarian).
Two-Weapon Fighting while using unarmed attacks (barbarian).
Whirling Frenzy (barbarian).
Pounce or Improved Grab or +1 Favoured Enemy (barbarian).
+1 Favoured Enemy (paladin).
Mage Slayer.
Divine Grace (paladin).
+1 Favoured Enemy (druid).
WIS to AC (druid).
Animal companion (druid).
Druid casting.
Druid spell trigger items.
Ranger spell trigger items.
Paladin spell trigger items.
CON to AC (fist of the forest).
1d8 unarmed damage, same as monk 6 (fist of the forest).
Fast Movement (fist of the forest).
Pierce Magical Concealment.


Because you get so many Favoured Enemies, you should have +6 or +8 bonus against arcanists (depending on barbarian ACF choice). You're a master of unarmed and unarmoured combat, you have high saves, good grappling ability, even a flanking partner as well, though a squishy one (maybe best to take a scouting bird of some sort). Fist of the Forest carries the Primal Living downside, which is technically an (Ex) ability you can get rid of (trait removal, but no DM lets that fly), so you might want to replace it with something else.

Continuing from this, a level of swordsage is great, and a level of incarnate might make good use of your azurin essentia. The Planar Ward ability isn't bad, though (+1 on saves versus extraplanar creature's Su/Sp abilities).

Race-wise, karsites are great for anti-magic flavour, though you lose your first-level druid spells, and it takes +2 LA. Good with buyoff, though.



Cool build. :smallsmile:

You also want immunity to death effects, Freedom of Movement, and some form of flight.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Cool build. :smallsmile:

You also want immunity to death effects, Freedom of Movement, and some form of flight.
Thanks :smallsmile:. Just realized there's a mistake: barbarian Favoured Enemy replaces Whirling Frenzy, not one of the totems. That's significant, because without rage, a barbarian/druid can become LN/NG/NE without penalty. LN especially comes much closer to the usual ideal of a monk.

Death effects are stopped by soulfire armour, freedom of movement is a ring, and flight is available as a graft. As a mundane, you have to get your abilities somewhere, right?

[mabriss lethe]

I'm going to focus on some core-only ideas. None of these will be anything remotely like full builds, but relatively accessible with minimal forethought.

In a core-ish only game, Monk/Assassin/Dragon Disciple can be pretty fun. It gets a bit more streamlined if you're allowed to take the carmindine monk feat to switch your monk ability dependency over from Wis to Int. The exact build doesn't matter too much. More Assassin gives you better casting, skills and Sneak attack, More Dragon disciple gives you a generally better chassis, bonus spells for the levels you already have (useful for an assassin) and a crap breath weapon. I'd take at least 2 levels for the natural attacks, but it's generally a good finisher. If you have a level left over it's not too hard to finish off with Hide in Plain Sight via a level of Shadowdancer. You can swap Assassin for Sorcerer if you like, better spell selection that way, and keeps you out of the Evil alignment scale if that's a problem at the table, it also lets you save some cross class skill points on disguise if that's a worry.

In a similar vein, an entertaining and somewhat odd choice would be Monk/Blackguard. Again, more spellcasting and sneak attack alongside better BAB and HD and innate wisdom synergy. you also get a nice debuff aura and with a bump to Charisma you get a good boost to saves, both of which can help when knocking around a caster. It has some *meh* feat requirements for a monk, but they aren't your worst options. Evil, which can be a problem at some tables, but a solid improvement over just monk. I've been toying with the idea of one for a while now. Just haven't had a game that it would work well with.

In an interesting turn of events, Monk is probably the only class in the game with the baked in skill set to qualify that would actually benefit from an extended stay in Shadowdancer. Better skills, tactical teleport options, and built in buddy that can deal strength damage (and gains feats as you level) With some optimization, liberal use of ghost touch equipment, and splat support that shadow can be rather handy.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Thanks :smallsmile:. Just realized there's a mistake: barbarian Favoured Enemy replaces Whirling Frenzy, not one of the totems. That's significant, because without rage, a barbarian/druid can become LN/NG/NE without penalty. LN especially comes much closer to the usual ideal of a monk.

Death effects are stopped by soulfire armour, freedom of movement is a ring, and flight is available as a graft. As a mundane, you have to get your abilities somewhere, right?

Sounds good, you might want Moment of the Perfect Mind if you don't want that graft to turn you evil, though.

[Karl Aegis]

You want to be a decent archer so you can bait out wind walls and protection from arrows while you line up a charge.

[Thurbane]

The Arcanopath Monk PrC (Dragon Compendium p.68) is theoretically made to be exactly this (an anti-mage monk), but it isn't the greatest of PrCs.

[King of Nowhere]

How powerful are the mages you're planning on slaying? We start the campaign at level 1, and will go on for as long as we remain united. So, basically at any level.


Start as azurin with a level in ranger with Favoured Enemy (arcanists), ... Then take a level in City Brawler Whirling Frenzy/'crafty hunter' barbarian,... and continue with paladin 2 ...

I am sure this is a great build, but I did specifically say i wanted a monk. this also rules out prc that do not fit much with the "monk" concept.

Questions about the mage slayer feat:
1) I see that it lowers the caster levels of my spell-like abilities. The monk has several of those. How badly that will affect me?
2) now wizards can't cast near me without getting an aoo, but they still can move back (taking an attack, but i won't deal enough damage to oneshot them) and then cast freely. How can I stop that? using that aoo for a grapple attempt? what if they have freedome of movement? using the aoo for trip? what if they are flying? I can ready an action to make a partial charge at them and attack to disrupt when they attempt to cast, but if they don't cast I'll just stay there looking stupid.

Another few unrelated questions:
3) can I increase my spell resistance? i'm sure there was a feat for it, but have no idea on its name. How about items? are there some that stack or buff my natural spell resistance?
4) can I increase the DC against my stunning fists? again, I'm sure there must be a feat, not so sure about items.
5) how can I improve my odds at tripping and grappling to make sure those pesky wizards won't escape me?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I am sure this is a great build, but I did specifically say i wanted a monk. this also rules out prc that do not fit much with the "monk" concept.
It's a monk if you call it a monk. Who's going to find out it isn't, when you beat up everything with your fists?

[Hackulator]

Spec for grappling, get a contingent AMF put on you that goes off when you enter grapple with anyone who can cast spells.

[Rhyltran]

We start the campaign at level 1, and will go on for as long as we remain united. So, basically at any level.



I am sure this is a great build, but I did specifically say i wanted a monk. this also rules out prc that do not fit much with the "monk" concept.

Questions about the mage slayer feat:
1) I see that it lowers the caster levels of my spell-like abilities. The monk has several of those. How badly that will affect me?
2) now wizards can't cast near me without getting an aoo, but they still can move back (taking an attack, but i won't deal enough damage to oneshot them) and then cast freely. How can I stop that? using that aoo for a grapple attempt? what if they have freedome of movement? using the aoo for trip? what if they are flying? I can ready an action to make a partial charge at them and attack to disrupt when they attempt to cast, but if they don't cast I'll just stay there looking stupid.

Another few unrelated questions:
3) can I increase my spell resistance? i'm sure there was a feat for it, but have no idea on its name. How about items? are there some that stack or buff my natural spell resistance?
4) can I increase the DC against my stunning fists? again, I'm sure there must be a feat, not so sure about items.
5) how can I improve my odds at tripping and grappling to make sure those pesky wizards won't escape me?

The best way to make a mage slayer is to be a caster but barring that I don't think the mage slayer feats are the way to go. You're going to want a monk that can cast spells or spell like abilities at some point in the game because that will be your best bet. I would recommend a wild shape monk or a fist of zuoken. Zen Archer (pathfinder's variant) isn't a bad way to go either but you need versatility and tricks to avoid the common traps that you'll be nailed with. However, no matter how well built, and equally built caster is going to make your life difficult if he's come prepared.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Spec for grappling, get a contingent AMF put on you that goes off when you enter grapple with anyone who can cast spells.
Commonly suggested, but it's really not a great strategy for doing much of anything useful, because freedom of movement still beats it (as do things like celerity and Abrupt Jaunt, of course). Also, it's completely hilarious when you're facing a dragon :smallbiggrin:.

[ColorBlindNinja]

We start the campaign at level 1, and will go on for as long as we remain united. So, basically at any level.

I was thinking more about optimization level, but OK.



Questions about the mage slayer feat:
1) I see that it lowers the caster levels of my spell-like abilities. The monk has several of those. How badly that will affect me?

Standard Monk doesn't have any SLAs, just SU and EX abilities.


2) now wizards can't cast near me without getting an aoo, but they still can move back (taking an attack, but i won't deal enough damage to oneshot them) and then cast freely. How can I stop that? using that aoo for a grapple attempt? what if they have freedome of movement? using the aoo for trip? what if they are flying? I can ready an action to make a partial charge at them and attack to disrupt when they attempt to cast, but if they don't cast I'll just stay there looking stupid.

The major issue is that the mage can simply take a 5-foot step or cast a quickened spell with impunity. Thicket of Blades prevents the 5-foot step, but not the quickened spell. You can get Thicket of Blades by taking Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit maneuver) and then taking Martial Stance.


Another few unrelated questions:
3) can I increase my spell resistance? i'm sure there was a feat for it, but have no idea on its name. How about items? are there some that stack or buff my natural spell resistance?

Mantle of Spell Resistance can help with that, but I don't think it stacks with the Monk's own SR. Honestly, SR is of limited usefulness, as many good spells ignore it.


4) can I increase the DC against my stunning fists? again, I'm sure there must be a feat, not so sure about items.

I think Ability Focus might work, I'm not too sure about that.


5) how can I improve my odds at tripping and grappling to make sure those pesky wizards won't escape me?

I wouldn't bother with either, you're better off killing them then trying to trip them or grapple them. If you must do so, take Improved Grapple/Improved Trip, getting some sort of effect that boosts your size might help (Expansion power for instance).

Edit:

Spec for grappling, get a contingent AMF put on you that goes off when you enter grapple with anyone who can cast spells.


That won't work if you get dispelled.

[Hackulator]

That won't work if you get dispelled.

If you think there is a perfect plan for anything, you are mistaken.


Commonly suggested, but it's really not a great strategy for doing much of anything useful, because freedom of movement still beats it (as do things like celerity and Abrupt Jaunt, of course). Also, it's completely hilarious when you're facing a dragon :smallbiggrin:.

TFW Freedom of Movement doesn't work in an AMF.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you think there is a perfect plan for anything, you are mistaken.

It won't work at all on an intelligent mage of your CR.

[Hackulator]

It won't work at all on an intelligent mage of your CR.

You would need to set up the contingent spell intelligently and then get near them using mostly mundane skills, but it can work. I mean, it might not work in your world where all rules are adjudicated to make casters as broken as humanly possible, but in most tables I've been at it can work.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You would need to set up the contingent spell intelligently and then get near them using mostly mundane skills, but it can work. I mean, it might not work in your world where all rules are adjudicated to make casters as broken as humanly possible, but in most tables I've been at it can work.

I hope you have natural flight, because if the mage is flying you can't reach her with AMF up; then, you're a sitting duck for whatever Instantaneous Conjuration she chooses to use on you.

Edit: Also, the Wizard is better at using Contingency than you are.

[tyckspoon]

The Arcanopath Monk PrC (Dragon Compendium p.68) is theoretically made to be exactly this (an anti-mage monk), but it isn't the greatest of PrCs.

It's not great, but I have a soft spot for this class too. It progresses standard Monk features, which is nice, and gets a few kind-of-neat special features, like being able to punch a creature deaf, mute, or (my favorite and probably the main reason I like it) literally slap the spells out of a caster's head - their capstone ability lets you whack somebody so hard they actually forget how to use some spells. Deflect/Reflect spell are actually pretty nice, too, although not quite nice enough to justify the level investment in the rest of the PRC and/or being a Monk.

If you can swing access to the Dragon Compendium, Monk of the Enabled Hand is another not-entirely-horrible PRC in the book. Gives some neat stuff like being able to make attacks against Touch AC, make counter Attacks of Opportunity when things hit you, and smack people so hard you send them flying (mechanically, a bull rush with bonuses that inflicts damage based on how far you launch them. Could make a neat lower-optimization character with that and the Dungeoncrasher Fighter alternate class feature.)

[Mehangel]

I am sure this is a great build, but I did specifically say i wanted a monk. this also rules out prc that do not fit much with the "monk" concept.


It's a monk if you call it a monk. Who's going to find out it isn't, when you beat up everything with your fists?

I cannot agree more with ExLibrisMortis. Just as someone is not required to have levels in the knight class to be a knight, or levels in samurai to be a samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html), you are not required to have levels in monk to be a monk. Just as long as the fluff and roleplay matches the theme of the character you should be good.

[King of Nowhere]

arcanopath has some nice-looking stuff, but ultimately it does not inspire me; if I can hit a wizard, my problem is solved already, and if I want to keep him from casting, I can use a stunning fist, which has a higher save DC for most of my levels. The only feature I see as really useful is the capacity to deflect rays. On the down side, I'd lose spell resistance (say what you want against stuff bypassing it, it still protects against a wide array of effects, and at the levels of optimization we're using I can still expect a wizard of my level to fail his bypass roll one third of the time) and the adamantine ki strike, which is useful to bypass stoneskin. it also forces me to take a bunch of skills and feats I don't really want.
monk of the enabled hand doesnt have anything specific against casters that I see. in fact, with ignoring armor and better chance of disarming, it seems aimed at fighting warriors.
Still, dragon compendium seems to have many prc for monks AND be available online, I'll look it for more. Maybe it may have some useful feats or items.


I cannot agree more with ExLibrisMortis. Just as someone is not required to have levels in the knight class to be a knight, or levels in samurai to be a samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html), you are not required to have levels in monk to be a monk. Just as long as the fluff and roleplay matches the theme of the character you should be good.

Ok, I can agree with that in principle. However, I'm not playing at those levels of optimization, that build is way too complicated for me and I don't even know what most of that stuff actually does. Let's just say that at the level of optimization I play, you can't build a monk without giving it the monk class.

[mastermisha1]

4) can I increase the DC against my stunning fists? again, I'm sure there must be a feat, not so sure about items.

Increasing your wisdom helps with the DC. In the Magic Item Compendium there are the Ki Straps for 5k GP, which give a +2 enchantment bonus to the DC. From the same book you could also get 2 pieces of the Gharyn's Monastic Array for an additional, untyped +1 DC.

If you can spare the feat, Ring the Golden Bell from Dragon Compendium can be rather fun. As a monk, your wisdom should be high anyways so it gives you both more uses of the feat, and greater range on it. Nothing prepares a caster for being punched in the face from 30 ft away by an invisible ki fist that attempts to stun then. If by chance you manage to gain spellcasting and spell channeling it becomes even more fun (targeted prismatic spheres, AMF, Blade Barrier, etc).

Likewise, if you want to be more Wisdom SAD, grabbing Intuitive Attack from Book of Exalted Deeds may be worthwhile. Managing to get into Shiba Protector afterwards is also great for a single level dip just for the + Wis to attack and damage.

[Endarire]

What about a combination of Unarmed Swordsage, Wizard, and Jade Phoenix Mage?

[ExLibrisMortis]

TFW Freedom of Movement doesn't work in an AMF.
The way your contingency is worded, it doesn't go off until you grapple. Freedom of movement prevents that grapple from ever occuring, so antimagic field doesn't go off. It's funny :smallbiggrin:.

Apart from that, the point still stands that antimagic fields are a really unreliable way of shutting down spellcasters, because you lose a lot of your own abilities as well, typically flight/immunities/size boosts/strength boosts. Sure, you become immune to a bunch of things, but at least one type of caster (mailman) and one class of monster (dragon) is very amused at your antimagic field.

Don't forget that grappling in an antimagic field is a great way of making sure nothing and nobody can help you. Allies trying to help you kill the spellcaster have a good chance of hitting you, instead. Allies with healing spells or protective spells or debuff spells can't use them. Allies with a lot of magic items won't like to come close to you.


Ok, I can agree with that in principle. However, I'm not playing at those levels of optimization, that build is way too complicated for me and I don't even know what most of that stuff actually does. Let's just say that at the level of optimization I play, you can't build a monk without giving it the monk class.
Well, to be a mage-slayer, you need to optimize more than the caster you're fighting. If you're using straight monk as base, you need to optimize a lot more.

The build is a bit complicated at first, but in play, it's fairly straightforward. I'd recommend having a read in Unearthed Arcana, which has most of the variants I'm referring to. The paladin variant is in Dragon #310, Favoured Enemy (arcanists) in Complete Mage, City Brawler in Dragon #349, spirit totems and Fist of the Forest in Complete Champion. Oh, and Shape Soulmeld is in Magic of Incarnum.

[King of Nowhere]

Well what if the antimagic field wasn't triggered by grappling, but by a command word I would use?
So my tactic would be:
- take the mage slayer feat
- take the ring the golden bell feat, or some other feat that gives me reach
- use the monk dimensional door to go near a caster, then activate the amf.

At this point, they cannot move without triggering an attack of opportunity, which I can use to initiate a grapple attempt (I'll get imrpoved grapple).

I realize I can do that without amf too: I teleport near a wizard, and they can't cast a spell or move without triggering an aoo, which I would use to make a trip attempt (monks can get improved trip as one of their free feats) or maybe a stunning fist. they can cast quickened spells at me, but at least that rules out all the higher level stuff. they can use quickened dimension door to gt to safety, though, but it will at least work before level 15.

As I already said, I am fully aware that a well optimized wizard will defeat me anyway, but we are not playing at those levels of optimization.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well what if the antimagic field wasn't triggered by grappling, but by a command word I would use?
So my tactic would be:
- take the mage slayer feat
- take the ring the golden bell feat, or some other feat that gives me reach
- use the monk dimensional door to go near a caster, then activate the amf.

At this point, they cannot move without triggering an attack of opportunity, which I can use to initiate a grapple attempt (I'll get imrpoved grapple).

I realize I can do that without amf too: I teleport near a wizard, and they can't cast a spell or move without triggering an aoo, which I would use to make a trip attempt (monks can get improved trip as one of their free feats) or maybe a stunning fist. they can cast quickened spells at me, but at least that rules out all the higher level stuff. they can use quickened dimension door to gt to safety, though, but it will at least work before level 15.

As I already said, I am fully aware that a well optimized wizard will defeat me anyway, but we are not playing at those levels of optimization.

- What will you do if the Mage is flying?

- Dimension Door ends your turn, the Wizard can simply take the Withdrawal action and leave. Thicket of Blades solves that problem, but it won't stop her from casting a quickened spell.

Edit: I forgot you can't cast in an AMF at low Op, the rest stands, though.

- Anticipate Teleport shuts down all teleporting near the caster and lasts 24 hours.

[Endarire]

What about the feat Earth's Embrace? (Google it for more info.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

What about the feat Earth's Embrace? (Google it for more info.)

Why would you bother pinning the mage instead of just killing her?

[lord_khaine]

The major issue is that the mage can simply take a 5-foot step or cast a quickened spell with impunity. Thicket of Blades prevents the 5-foot step, but not the quickened spell. You can get Thicket of Blades by taking Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit maneuver) and then taking Martial Stance.
Alternatively just use a spiked chain. That at least covers the issue of a 5-foot step.


Ok, I can agree with that in principle. However, I'm not playing at those levels of optimization, that build is way too complicated for me and I don't even know what most of that stuff actually does. Let's just say that at the level of optimization I play, you can't build a monk without giving it the monk class.

I got a nice and simple Monk build you can use, as long as your not scared of mixing in some psionic.
Just mix levels of Monk and Ardent evenly for the first 8 levels or so. Use your feats on Monastic training, Tashalatoe and practiced manifester.

Practiced Manifester means you get to pick level 3 psionic powers at character level 5. Even if your a Monk 3/Ardent 2 here.
Then
A) Pick Dispel Psionic
B) Run down below a flying spellcaster of choice
C) Dispel his flight
D) Get an AOE on him to add insult to injury
F) Profit!!!

This will result in a simple build, that should remain effective at compating spellcasters at the level you descripe. And your psionic ability to dispel spells can easily be refluffed as using your KI to disrupt magic agressively.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Alternatively just use a spiked chain. That at least covers the issue of a 5-foot step.

How? 5-foot steps don't provoke Attack of Opportunity.

[Rhyltran]

Alternatively just use a spiked chain. That at least covers the issue of a 5-foot step.



I got a nice and simple Monk build you can use, as long as your not scared of mixing in some psionic.
Just mix levels of Monk and Ardent evenly for the first 8 levels or so. Use your feats on Monastic training, Tashalatoe and practiced manifester.

Practiced Manifester means you get to pick level 3 psionic powers at character level 5. Even if your a Monk 3/Ardent 2 here.
Then
A) Pick Dispel Psionic
B) Run down below a flying spellcaster of choice
C) Dispel his flight
D) Get an AOE on him to add insult to injury
F) Profit!!!

This will result in a simple build, that should remain effective at compating spellcasters at the level you descripe. And your psionic ability to dispel spells can easily be refluffed as using your KI to disrupt magic agressively.

Yeah, this is why I suggested psionics earlier in the thread but it was ignored. I also suggested a wild shape monk. I think these two are the best bet at "Dealing" with spellcasters. Psionics adds "magic" (or in this case psionics) of it's own and the other adds sheer versatility and power options. Want to compete with magic? You need magic of your own.

[lord_khaine]

How? 5-foot steps don't provoke Attack of Opportunity.

It dont do anything to take you out of reach either at that point.

[King of Nowhere]

- What will you do if the Mage is flying?


Magit items to fly aren't that rare. Grabbing one is one of the first things to do to fight a spellcaster. ok, activating the antimagic field will disable my flight, but it will disable the wizard's as well.



- Dimension Door ends your turn, the Wizard can simply take the Withdrawal action and leave. Thicket of Blades solves that problem, but it won't stop her from casting a quickened spell.

Thicket of blades is interesting, but I see it requires being a crusader. Do I have any way to get it otherwise? As for withdrawal, if the wizard does that, he won't cast a spell (except a quickened one, but I can't do much about it), and with my monk speed I will be able to reach him again the next turn. I should have enough jump to also reach him if he tries to fly after exiting the antimagic field


- Anticipate Teleport shuts down all teleporting near the caster and lasts 24 hours.

We're mostly restricted to core, and we have to ask permission to use other stuff. I doubt someone will have anticipate teleport. if they do, I'd just have to come close the old fashioned way.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It dont do anything to take you out of reach either at that point.

That depends how close you are to the mage.


Magit items to fly aren't that rare.

Which don't work in an AMF.


Grabbing one is one of the first things to do to fight a spellcaster. ok, activating the antimagic field will disable my flight, but it will disable the wizard's as well.

How are you getting to the flying mage if you have an AMF up?



Thicket of blades is interesting, but I see it requires being a crusader. Do I have any way to get it otherwise?

Take Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit Maneuver) and then take Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades).


As for withdrawal, if the wizard does that, he won't cast a spell (except a quickened one, but I can't do much about it), and with my monk speed I will be able to reach him again the next turn. I should have enough jump to also reach him if he tries to fly after exiting the antimagic field

You might not be able to reach the mage depending on the environment, and what spell she casts.


We're mostly restricted to core, and we have to ask permission to use other stuff. I doubt someone will have anticipate teleport. if they do, I'd just have to come close the old fashioned way.

Anticipate Teleportation is in the Spell Compendium, and you going to have a tough time if the mage is flying.

[King of Nowhere]

Grabbing one is one of the first things to do to fight a spellcaster. ok, activating the antimagic field will disable my flight, but it will disable the wizard's as well.

How are you getting to the flying mage if you have an AMF up?



Wait a moment, let me get this straight: I assumed that I could use abundant step to go close to the wizard and then trigger an anti magic field from some item. I cannot use abundant step into an antimagic field as supernatural abilities can't be used in amf. So if I can trigger the amf after I abundantly stepped, then I'm fine, and if I can't, then this strategy goes down the drain.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wait a moment, let me get this straight: I assumed that I could use abundant step to go close to the wizard and then trigger an anti magic field from some item. I cannot use abundant step into an antimagic field as supernatural abilities can't be used in amf. So if I can trigger the amf after I abundantly stepped, then I'm fine, and if I can't, then this strategy goes down the drain.

There are items that create an AMF, the issue with Abundant Stepping is that you can't take any actions after teleporting, and thus can't activate the AMF on that turn.

[lord_khaine]

That depends how close you are to the mage.

You dont pick a spiked chain to place people at the edge of your reach. Not without thicket of blades.


Magit items to fly aren't that rare. Grabbing one is one of the first things to do to fight a spellcaster. ok, activating the antimagic field will disable my flight, but it will disable the wizard's as well.

That is true, this tactic should remain viable until the Wizard begins to learn Tumble. Of course, the moment he does then this strategy more or less crashes to the ground.


Wait a moment, let me get this straight: I assumed that I could use abundant step to go close to the wizard and then trigger an anti magic field from some item. I cannot use abundant step into an antimagic field as supernatural abilities can't be used in amf. So if I can trigger the amf after I abundantly stepped, then I'm fine, and if I can't, then this strategy goes down the drain.

You cant use abbundant step while inside an antimagic field. This goes down the drain.

Best bet is to fly into range of the mage, and then activating the anti-magic field. Your monk speed bonus does also apply to the one you get from flying.

But this reminds me, if this is more or less a core build, then how will you get anti-magic field?
And also, then your kinda even more screwed.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You dont pick a spiked chain to place people at the edge of your reach. Not without thicket of blades.

How are you getting close to the mage in the first place?

[lord_khaine]

How are you getting close to the mage in the first place?

By placing one foot before the other.. and repeating..

[ColorBlindNinja]

By placing one foot before the other.. and repeating..

Good luck, most intelligent mages aren't going to let you get close enough.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hmmm. Creatures fall on their turn, don't they? So if you fly up to the wizard and activate your antimagic field, there will be a point in the initiative order where one of you has fallen, and the other hasn't (yet), so the antimagic field is, in fact, not covering both creatures at once, and it's the wizard's turn...

[King of Nowhere]

Hmmm. Creatures fall on their turn, don't they? So if you fly up to the wizard and activate your antimagic field, there will be a point in the initiative order where one of you has fallen, and the other hasn't (yet), so the antimagic field is, in fact, not covering both creatures at once, and it's the wizard's turn...

this is ridiculous. if you have two creatures flying, and you turn off the flight for both of them, both should fall at a similar speed, prividing similar mass and drag coefficient. the idea that the two would remain in midair like W.E. Coyote until suddenly noticing grvity at the beginning of their turn is just ludicrous. This is one of those instances where, as a DM, I would throw raw out of the window and go with what makes sense.
On the other hand, I will not be the DM in this game, so I can only hope my DM will share the same ideas...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Anchoring Blow feat from Dragon #306 (p. 53-54) requires Power Attack, Stunning Fist, and Str 15 / Wis 17 which is a lot unfortunately.
But it lets you burn a stunning fist to apply a dimensional anchor effect to your unarmed attack.

Pretty nice if you want to hold onto mages. Sadly it still does nothing about freedom of movement.

EDIT: Best to combine w/ Scorpion's Grasp feat, so immediately after you anchor-punch the mage you get a free grapple check.

[ExLibrisMortis]

this is ridiculous. if you have two creatures flying, and you turn off the flight for both of them, both should fall at a similar speed, prividing similar mass and drag coefficient. the idea that the two would remain in midair like W.E. Coyote until suddenly noticing grvity at the beginning of their turn is just ludicrous. This is one of those instances where, as a DM, I would throw raw out of the window and go with what makes sense.
On the other hand, I will not be the DM in this game, so I can only hope my DM will share the same ideas...
You forget that all turns technically happen during the same round, so they do fall at the same moment in time, just not on the same turn.

[King of Nowhere]

You forget that all turns technically happen during the same round, so they do fall at the same moment in time, just not on the same turn.

yes, and if they do fall at the same moment in time, then there is never a time when one is out of the amf and the other is.

[lord_khaine]

Good luck, most intelligent mages aren't going to let you get close enough.

Dont need luck. We are to start with talking about a Mage that wants to use his 5-foot step to get out of reach. That means he isnt some theoretical astral projection but an actual gameplay mage.


Hmmm. Creatures fall on their turn, don't they? So if you fly up to the wizard and activate your antimagic field, there will be a point in the initiative order where one of you has fallen, and the other hasn't (yet), so the antimagic field is, in fact, not covering both creatures at once, and it's the wizard's turn...

Do we have any source on this? because im pretty certain that the wizard would start falling the moment his fly spell stopped working. Thats btw falling damage for both of you.

But this isnt looney toons. If your are bull rushed into a pit trap you wont hang there in the air until it becomes your turn either.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dont need luck. We are to start with talking about a Mage that wants to use his 5-foot step to get out of reach. That means he isnt some theoretical astral projection but an actual gameplay mage.

- I'd expect any mage that can cast Astral Projection to use it, but a 5-foot step suffices 9 times out of 10 in they're in melee range.

- There always spells like Dimensional Jumper and Quickened Dimension Door that can get a mage to safety if you're too close.

[ExLibrisMortis]

yes, and if they do fall at the same moment in time, then there is never a time when one is out of the amf and the other is.
No, because antimagic field coverage is determined by tactical movement, not in-universe timing. Essentially, when you come down with your antimagic field active, you and the wizard tumble around a bit, during which the wizard finds a window to cast a spell (and their fly spell resumes, as well).


Do we have any source on this? because im pretty certain that the wizard would start falling the moment his fly spell stopped working. Thats btw falling damage for both of you.
Well, that's tricky. Rules on falling are notoriously thin, and neither DMG nor RC has anything on this specific situation. What is clear:
- Fly doesn't allow you to descend safely if it's suppressed by an antimagic field.
- If you lose your fly speed, you can't fly (obviously), but other than that, your actions are not impeded in any way.
- You fall only once per round. The distance is either 150' or 670' on the first round, and 300' or 1150' on the rounds after that, until you *splat*. The first numbers are for flying creatures who fail to maintain minumum forward speed, the second is the DMGII rule. The 'Battle in the Sky' section otherwise proves remarkably useless on the topic of falling (it even has a subsection "Bull Rush, Grappling, and Magic" which is totally useless).
- Presumably, gaining and losing flight multiple times per round doesn't cause you to fall multiple times. I'd houserule that you can fall no more than 670' total on any round where you start supported (non-falling).
- You can't normally move out of turn, unless another's special ability moves you (Bull Rush and stuff).
- Nothing suggests you can move out of turn to fall.
- I haven't checked every book that might have more falling rules, so if there's more info, there might be a better answer.

I'd suggest that you fall at the earliest moment during your turn, but after you complete your current action. For example, if you are full attacking and get hit by some reactive/immediate-action antimagic field, you can finish the full attack, then you fall (otherwise you could move 670' during a full attack, which would be odd). If you lose flight out of turn, you fall at the start of your next turn.

[lord_khaine]

- I'd expect any mage that can cast Astral Projection to use it, but a 5-foot step suffices 9 times out of 10 in they're in melee range.

- There always spells like Dimensional Jumper and Quickened Dimension Door that can get a mage to safety if you're too close.

That really depends on if the mage is the pc or the npc. Because a pc will take steps to make sure a simple 5-foot step wont suffice, since that will lead to a dead mage a lot more often. A npc will avoid taking those steps for the same reason. And partly because its going to be a little silly if every opponent is flying and wielding a reach weapon.


I'd suggest that you fall at the earliest moment during your turn, but after you complete your current action. For example, if you are full attacking and get hit by some reactive/immediate-action antimagic field, you can finish the full attack, then you fall (otherwise you could move 670' during a full attack, which would be odd). If you lose flight out of turn, you fall at the start of your next turn.

So there is indeed no rules to suggest that you can only fall in your own turn. And then logic would dictate that you would fall at the moment when something caused you to fall. That is normally in whoever are fallings turn, because the most regular cause for falling is a PC doing something stupid, or falling a jump/climp check.

But when your flight spell is dispelled, or you are bull rushed over a cliff, then you do not hang in the air for ½ a round before suddenly plummeting towards the ground. I know that d&d rules sometimes takes priority over realism, but when there isnt any rules then things are supposed to follow the laws of regular physics.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That really depends on if the mage is the pc or the npc. Because a pc will take steps to make sure a simple 5-foot step wont suffice, since that will lead to a dead mage a lot more often. A npc will avoid taking those steps for the same reason. And partly because its going to be a little silly if every opponent is flying and wielding a reach weapon.

How are you planning to keep the mage close enough that they can't get away?

[King of Nowhere]

How are you planning to keep the mage close enough that they can't get away?

At the level of optimization I am going to play, if I can make most saving throws, can fight a flying, invisible opponent, can bypass damage reduction from stoneskin and free myself from a forcecage, and can prevent a caster to cast without making an attack of opportunity once I get in melee, then I am a credible threat, and i consider my build fulfilled.

So, if I can get the mage slayer feat, find some way to get that other thing too make aoo on 5-feet-steps, and maybe also get ring the golden bell to make a ranged attack and stun my opponent while I get close, I will be happy. I need to see if the DM will allow all that.

As for quickened dimension door, by the time our opponents will have enough 8th level spells that they want to spare one for retreat, one of my caster will certainly have quickened dimensional anchor. And if my wizard needs only a swift action to help me, and then I can keep an enemy caster busy for a few rounds, I am pulling my weight in the team.

[ATHATH]

A Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 19 build with the Talashatora feat should mostly do okay.