How much fighter/wizard for this build?

[Chronos Flame]

So I am starting a new game in a couple weeks and I have the first few levels of the character I want to play fleshed out, and while I feel I know 5e pretty well, I've never played an eldritch knight and am a bit confused on it's usefulness. Maybe it just isn't made for my concept is all.

So the character is going to start fighter and then immediately take 5 levels of bladesinger for haste. For roleplay reasons she has to be a dual wielder. My original plan was to pump dex and then it and go straight fighter after those 5 wizard levels but will that even make the character much better off a melee combatant or solely a worse caster? I was planning on wiz5/EK11 (only planning through16) but would EK2-3 and the rest wizard be just plain better?

[RulesJD]

Strictly speaking, don't bother with Fighter 3 if you want a melee wizard. You only want Fighter 2 for Action Surge.

Abjuration Wiz is hands down the best for melee wizard builds. The Ward alone beats every other possible option. Bladesingers are too squishy against anything except AC based attacks.

[djreynolds]

How many levels will this go? You said 16?

18 wizard has a huge perk

Aside from that, bladesinger is already giving you good weapons to use

Maybe just 2 fighter/ x wizard as RulesJD suggests, bladesong coupled with the shield spell is awesome and at 10 bladesinger you can use spell slots to eat damage

Though I think for you rogue/bladesinger could provide more oomph.

[Chronos Flame]

Does rogue give much? Fighter1 gives fighting style, 2 gives action surge, 3 a caster level and weapon bond (which is thematic for the character but also not bad) and 4 a feat or 2 dex.

What level would you suggest to take a skirmisher type rogue? 3 for some sneak attack when applicable and a subclass?

I was considering taking mobile to give speed and emulate cunning action without sacrificing the of hand attack. Is that a good idea? Less so as a rogue?

[HidesHisEyes]

I'm creating an Eldritch Knight at the moment and I think it's definitely meant for "fighter who supplements swordplay with a little magic", not "fighter/Mage". For an agile skirmisher with magic you probably want to start with bladesinger, and mix in either fighter (Eldritch Knight) or rogue (arcane Trickster). Not sure what the best level split would be though. For a more tanky Strength-based gish you would want abjurer rather than bladesinger, I'm pretty sure.

Edit: of course there are other very safe-bet ways to do sword fighting spellcaster. Valour bard is probably the most straightforward, but obviously that's quite conceptually loaded.

[djreynolds]

Does rogue give much? Fighter1 gives fighting style, 2 gives action surge, 3 a caster level and weapon bond (which is thematic for the character but also not bad) and 4 a feat or 2 sex.

What level would you suggest to take a skirmisher type rogue? 3 for some sneak attack when applicable and a subclass?

I was considering taking mobile to give speed and emulate cunning action without sacrificing the of hand attack. Is that a good idea? Less so as a rogue?

3 levels of swashbuckler gives rakish audacity (no advantage or melee buddy needed if a lone opponent) and fancyfoot work-- as good as mobile and 2d6 SA every turn

2 levels gives you uncanny dodge, BA disengage freely

1 level gives you 1 skill, and 2 skills expertise--- like stealth or arcana or investigation, 1d6 SA

A fighting style is nice, and you can grab just 1 level of fighter for that.

Its just IMO since bladesinger is dex based, rogue might be a better choice

Bladesinger has some nice perks at 2, 5, 10 and 14.... you need to know which you want

Also you have decide how you are fighting?

If you are running around using BB/GFB you only have one attack anyhow, no BA from TWF since it is a spell attack and not the attack action you are taking. So here you can still use cunning action after this cantrip but no off-hand attack

At 14th level bladesinger, way off in the distance, that's where TWF is awesome because you are adding dex and int to every swipe. So if you plan 14 levels of bladesinger then 2 levels of fighter is nice since your campaign is to 16th

Now EK7 war magic will allow you to cast a cantrip and BA attack, here mobile is nice to have. But then you may never get to bladesinger 5 or 10 or 14 and you are really just grabbing 2 levels for bladesong and some extra spells and spell slots

So are you a EK with extra magic and bladesong

Or are you a bladesinger, who if using GFB/BB the extra attack is not as effective

IMO bladesinger is still a wizard and your spells are your power, just snag 2 of rogue get cunning action and max out dex and intelligence asap

[ruy343]

Might I suggest a different direction? If you're looking for a good "gish" concept, perhaps you might consider starting off with 1 level of fighter (for armor proficiencies), and then multiclass into Warlock? The warlock gets a lot more useful spells that can be used to buff you in melee combat, but which don't necessarily require opponents to make saving throws (see Armor of Agathys, Hex, and others). I was planning to take this route for my next warrior-type character because there's a number of good upgrades for doing so (including the 12th level invocation that lets you add Cha to damage with pact weapon attacks).

Sure, your hit point dice is a little lower for any warlock levels you may take, but a few daily spell slots of Eldritch Knight (note: you don't need a high int if you're just taking EK for a few extra shield spells and the like) to fill in between your per-short-rest spells from warlock could really help to make the character feel more versatile/powerful.

Since you're going for a melee build (I think), you can even skill out on the "invocation tax" on the eldritch blast boosts - just get stuff that benefits you in melee or out-of-combat.

[Relbin]

I am playing a fighter wizard in AL. I started with 5 levels of Eldritch Knight, then took 2 levels of bladesinger, then took EK to 7 for war magic and then plan on continuing Bladesinger going forward. This build is fun and versatile. He is essentially an Indiana Jones/Nathan Drake style treasure hunter with a custom scholar background giving him Arcana, Investigation and thieves' tools. With rituals, he is useful in any situation. War Magic is competitive with triple attack, meaning you really only need 7 levels of fighter. While you do delay access to third level spells until 12, casting good low level concentration spells (e.g. Tasha's, Hold Person, blur, expeditious retreat) and then relying on your good melee attacks gives a very fun hybrid caster feel. 3rd level hold person plus action surge is a good combo. You definitely feel on par with half casters and your spell selection allows you the ability to have access to a variety of useful effects. Prioritize Dex and then Int to maximize the benefit from Bladesong. You don't need warcaster as you can just keep a hand free.

The issue with Fighter 1/bladesinger 5 to Fighter 11 is that you don't get extra attack until level 10 and your stats won't be good enough to take advantage of bladesong until very high level, meaning you will be quite vulnerable on the front line. Haste is amazing but not enough to delay survivability and extra attack. You would really be more of a wizard with increased survivability than a front liner which is a very different feel and you are probably better off taking different spells than haste at that point.

Also, look at what your party expects from you. If you are the main tank and most of the party is ranged, you likely want at least 5 levels of fighter. If you are the only caster, straight blade singer is probably the way to go.

Edit: Didn't see the dual wield. Dual wield is a bad fit for eldritch knight/bladesinger due to war magic taking a bonus action. In addition, you need to take warcaster which kind of defeats the purpose of bladesinger. You may be better off going Abjurer or Diviner and just sticking with heavy armor at that point. Alternitively, go pure bladesinger, use haste to get your off hand attack and play cautiously, relying on other party members to protect/heal you as you are squishy, your stats are worse and your spells will quickly outpace your martial abilities.

[Chronos Flame]

Okay, sorry for not being able to accurately post both what I was thinking and what I was asking. I have been working 10 hour shifts and had only time to post this on my phone for a few days.

Thanks for all the helpful advice. In particular I am now considering rogue instead of fire, but one of the reasons for that relates to an original question that I did not ask as clearly as I'd liked: Is the fighter so much better at fighting than the bladesinger? At the cost of 2hp per level (no small amount, I know, assume I can supplement that a bit) if the focus is dex, how much are you losing, especially while multiclassing or at mid levels? Bladesinger gives multiattack. Haste as a buff spell makes up some of the ground, even giving you war magic (that, albeit, stacks with war magic). 1-4 levels of fighter give a big load of the goodies.

What I am wondering is the idea that people keep saying a bladesinger is just a wizard and shouldn't spend too much time up front. Is that just the HP? Is there some source of melee damage I am missing (over another duel wielder especially, considering I know they are right around the bottom of the DPR ladder)?

Also, as a final note, I am dead set on bladesinger in some capacity. It is thematically appropriate, I have wanted to play one for a while, and the character just isn't a warlock.

[JBPuffin]

What I am wondering is the idea that people keep saying a bladesinger is just a wizard and shouldn't spend too much time up front. Is that just the HP? Is there some source of melee damage I am missing (over another duel wielder especially, considering I know they are right around the bottom of the DPR ladder)?

Besides the major drop in hit points (it's 4 less HP at the start, then about 2/level, ends up being a full 42 HP less if using averages), the lack of fighting style, UD kicks in level 2 so that first level is definitely less swordy than you'd like and your AC's down about 2 or 3 points for several levels, no action surge/second wind/extra attack (okay, sure, Haste, but still not as much)...it's just not designed for full-on melee combat, more rogue-level combat. Multiclassing Fighter and Bladesinger and dual-wielding messes with some of your features no matter how you slice it; the question becomes which is more crucial to you. Do you need spellcasting at level 1? Start with Bladesinger, invest more in Con than you might normally, and play carefully. If the melee matters more, start with Fighter (High Elf or Magic Initiate for level 1 spellcasting, Dual Wielder for proper TWF), wear the best light armor you can find, and be a dervish of death. Bladesong means you won't be TWFing first round, and War Magic means you have to choose every turn between cantrip+main hand or main(x2 at higher levels)+offhand. Picking up Lightning Lure as one of your cantrips helps and gives you a 4e Swordmage flavor (drag them to you, then swing - had a tug of war with an EK and a Warlock once, that was entertaining). GFB and BB are less useful for you, since you're already throwing out an extra die of damage with every swing and they take up that BA slot.

As someone who keeps accidentally TWFing during fights (last two characters both have spells, one being a Dwarf Valor Bard and the other a Magic Initiate VHuman Rogue), in play it feels quite nice. I roll my attacks and damage simultaneously with color-coded dice, so every turn was just a fistful of dice hitting the table and, sometimes, being incredibly epic (once crit with sneak attack and got snake eyes on my extra damage...that felt bad). Especially if the rest of the party is low/mid-OP, a well-played TWFighter is something scary to watch; have a buddy with a Champion Fighter 9, and the damage he'd deal on a regular basis not-quite matched our high-op Archer Ranger. My current character is an odd duck; he's a normal Dex-focused rogue with Magic Initiate (Fire Bolt, Mage Hand [will retrain at 3], and Shield), so normally he sticks to fire bolt or shortbow. However, in his second fight, he got cornered by a bear, and I switched to base-mechanics TWF (no attribute mods on offhand, which had to be a dagger) and ended up shredding what was left of the bear's HP (about half health, was the only party member standing at the time). This means that every round, now, I'm choosing between making a proper ranged attack (usually fire bolt, honestly - I've got an acquired taste for burning shrubs when my attacks miss :smallcool:) and running in like a madman, taking cover, and filleting some fools, and it's been a harder choice than I anticipated. I've Expertised performance, though, so I might try going Bladesong myself...

If you're considering Rogue, as my Rogue is considering Bladesinger, then you can hypothetically go TWF Dex Focus. Keep in mind that you either need to practice more guerrilla tactics, less guerrilla tactics (either always be next to your melee compadre or use Cunning Action to set up ambushes), or go Swashbuckler as your roguish archetype which promotes less guerrilla tactics.