What would a magically advanced society be like?

[Jaxter Gronaldi]

We have all sorts of neat doodads like phones, and airplanes, week are technologically advanced, what would a civilization with magic for the same amount of time look like?

[Unoriginal]

We have all sorts of neat doodads like phones, and airplanes, week are technologically advanced, what would a civilization with magic for the same amount of time look like?

With DnD rules of magic? Without improving in technology at all?

Significantly less advanced than our world.

5e's magic items are hard to craft, and you need pretty rare individuals for spells and other magical effects, meaning it's impossible to have a large-scale magic industry, let alone reliable access on magic.

[Kuulvheysoon]

While not quite what you're looking for, try the Eberron Campaign Setting.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

With DnD rules of magic? Without improving in technology at all?
Significantly less advanced than our world.
5e's magic items are hard to craft, and you need pretty rare individuals for spells and other magical effects, meaning it's impossible to have a large-scale magic industry, let alone reliable access on magic.
You could still get a world that looked pretty different from the standard medieval model, though. Long distance communication via sending spells, impossible to forge signatures/id through Arcane mark, low level clerics providing healing (and being able to create water during droughts), just having people who can cast first through third level spells in most towns would have economic and societal effects.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Economically you'd have people making money off their spells. How much depends on how common spellcasters are. Think about those with the most unique abilities here. A 5th level whoever could make a living like a heart surgeon I would imagine.

A Lore Bard with some skills would be a virtual rock star!

[Kane0]

Paladins would virtually eradicate disease, and working with clerics would make hospitals pretty much needless.
Plant growth, goodberry and create water could almost negate the need for heavy agriculture and waterwork, as well as costly fertilizer and irrigation.
Prestidigitation would destroy the spice trade and almost negate the need for heating/cooling in kitchens.
Mending would vastly improve the longevity of almost all products and anybody making a business of repairs would have no work. Similar story for fabricate though you still need to be trained to.
You know what would become a major source of trade? Spell components and foci.

[Tetrasodium]

We have all sorts of neat doodads like phones, and airplanes, week are technologically advanced, what would a civilization with magic for the same amount of time look like?

A lot like the 6 nations in Eberron, khorvaire is kind of around the point of industrial revolution technologically. more advanced in some ways, less so in others.

Tippyverse is another somewhat darker version with different baseline assumptions.

[Tetrasodium]

Paladins would virtually eradicate disease, and working with clerics would make hospitals pretty much needless.
Plant growth, goodberry and create water could almost negate the need for heavy agriculture and waterwork, as well as costly fertilizer and irrigation.
Prestidigitation would destroy the spice trade and almost negate the need for heating/cooling in kitchens.
Mending would vastly improve the longevity of almost all products and anybody making a business of repairs would have no work. Similar story for fabricate though you still need to be trained to.
You know what would become a major source of trade? Spell components and foci.

You assume those are all common things. Take Eberron where there just are not that many people available for many of the things you list, yea there are things like House Jorasco & the dragonmark of healing. Those folks are only so common & their strength comes not from what the dragonmark lets them do (cure wounds & spare the dying 1/long rest); but in all the things their dragonmark focus devices let them do an unlimited number of times per day

[Unoriginal]

You could still get a world that looked pretty different from the standard medieval model, though. Long distance communication via sending spells, impossible to forge signatures/id through Arcane mark, low level clerics providing healing (and being able to create water during droughts), just having people who can cast first through third level spells in most towns would have economic and societal effects.

Low-level clerics won't become more numerous, and due to the nature of magic there won't be people who can cast third level spells in most towns.

[StoicLeaf]

The true worth of any so called advanced society can be summed up in two words:

Flushing. Toilets.

[RedMage125]

While not quite what you're looking for, try the Eberron Campaign Setting.

While this was my first thought as well, I also recommend the Xcrawl setting.

It was initially designed for 3.0, but they recently did "Maximum Xcrawl", which updates the rules to the Pathfinder RPG.

It's basically set on Earth, but if magic and D&D stuff were always real.

The existence of magic re-enforced the class system, so even in modern times, there are aristocrats and commoners. Most commoners can't afford magic. So Democracy is not a big thing.

When the Revolutionary War went down, instead of the United States, we got the north American Empire, under Emperor George I.

Monotheistic religions, like Judeo-Christian ones never took off, after all, the Roman gods appeared before their followers and even granted spells.

During WWII, Hitler allied with hobgoblins, calling them "the green Aryans".

Travel between city-states is rare, because of monsters, and ESPECIALLY dragons. Only aristocrats can get drivers licenses, or afford cars.

It's a pretty amazing setting, actually.

[Koren]

did you want to build a world like this or are you asking out of curiosity?

idealistically, magic would become the standard and while higher level spells would probably be a rare capability, Cantrips like Prestidigitation and Mending would be basic education. Casters capable of making magic items may be rare now but if we use modern education as a comparison, the more important it becomes to standard living the more people will learn how to do it.

realistically it would probably look more like the xcrawl setting mentioned previously. magic will become a symbol of status. Sorcerers would either be Nobles (having Dragons in their ancestry) or criminals (I can't really imagine Wild magic being viewed as okay by the Magical Elite. if anyone could just suddenly BE magic, what's so special about them?)

I could probably go on and on and on, implementing the Warlocks, half casters and third casters, etc. but I will get very long winded and you get the idea.

I would love to do a unique setting like this though. I imagine a Dragon Age 2 type plot with a Wild Magic Sorcerer fighting against the Dragon Sorcerer and Wizard Elites. very Dystopian.

[Socratov]

I'd say something like Shadowrun is very possible...

[Steampunkette]

The first thing I would remind you of is that technology and scientific advancement are not a linear progression from A to B with a clear and simple line. Oftentimes A combines with F through K before reaching B and only reaches B because C is impractical.

Let me give you an example by explaining why the Two Handed Sword is responsible for Space Travel. And no. That's not a joke.

During the Napoleonic Era, Two handed swords were used to DEVASTATING effect against Cavalry Charges, making one of the oldest and most effective military tactics costly to employ. Napoleon, recognizing this, instead focused on getting himself a MASSIVE army. One of the largest the world had ever seen, so that his infantry and cannons could be used to great effect.

However since the army was massive and the supply lines from France were thin, he encouraged the common people to send food to their family members in his army. Unfortunately large portions of the food rotted long before it reached the front lines. It was assumed (Wrongly) that the Swamp Gasses had ruined the food in transit (France has a bunch of swamps, but had even more at the time).

So the common folk started putting food in wine bottles and corking them shut. Mostly hard bread baked in the bottom of the bottle with soup poured into the bottle once it cooled. Once it reached the lines the soldier poured the soup into a bowl, broke the bottle, and had a nice meal. Isn't that innovative?

But it wasn't perfect. Sometimes "Bad Air" got into the bottle anyhow. So they started jarring. And then canning with tin. But it still wasn't perfect. Decades later it lead to the study of "Bad Air" and how Bad Air was probably responsible for Malaria. After all: People in Cold Climates don't get Malaria. Of course they were wrong about the cause, but that didn't stop John Gorrie from making the world's first mechanical air conditioner to try and treat Malaria Patients by making their rooms cooler. Which of course lead to more modern Refrigeration Units to keep food cool and extend its shelf life.

Sir James Dewar, working with experiments in keeping things hot or cold based on what he knew of the AC unit (in 1892 mind you) wound up realizing that materials and air are what heat transfers through. So he created the world's first Thermos by making a vacuum-chamber around a central cannister which held heated or cooled material. It worked, of course, because it minimized the amount of heat-transference to or from the substance. Based off his designs, however...

Tsiolkovsky, Goddard, and Oberth would create massive canisters of liquid hydrogen or oxygen, kept cold enough by thermos style vacuum chambers to remain in a liquid state, which were the basis of the V-2 and Saturn V rockets that eventually put a man on the moon.

All because someone started using a bigger sword to kill horses.

A world in which magic is the basis of technology and scientific advancement would almost certainly not resemble our own in any meaningful way. Especially if that world also had Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs in it.

[LordNibbler]

First you'd need a school to teach the responsible use of magic to the population. Let's call it, for example, Hogwarts...

[Yagyujubei]

i think a setting like the kingdom of zeal in chrono trigger would be pretty awesome. i would describe it but im pretty sure everyone knows what im talking about

[Citan]

We have all sorts of neat doodads like phones, and airplanes, week are technologically advanced, what would a civilization with magic for the same amount of time look like?
My take is that, the only true requirement for having an "advanced" civilization would be that someone found a way to make magic "stick" for extremely longer times and shared it worldwide.
Then you could have all the Middle-Age and Renaissance technologies exploited (water, air or coal-powered motors) thanks to perpetual subsistance (fire) or creation (coal or other carburant).

You could even imagine some tourist trips between Planes. XD

Without changing anything to current state though, I'd say you could imagine some things like that but on a much smaller scale because it would require usually one or more casters dedicated to the perpetuation of a particular effect.

[Sigreid]

If it comes with everything it could be terrifying. Right now that satanic cult down town is a bunch of loonies that may or may not actually hurt someone. In a D&D Magic world, demons and devils may actually be unleashed by them upon the neighborhood.

[Steampunkette]

Since I have a bit more time I'll try to explain the comment, above, about different racial ideologies and their social impact and how drastically that would change any developing society -away- from anything resembling ours.

Elves are, perhaps, the single best example. They're often Chaotically aligned, favoring personal freedoms above basically anything, which is all well and good, but there are two major implications to a portion of society that lives for literally centuries (And in many settings up to a millenium if they even die of old age, at all): Extreme Social Conservatism, and Extreme Wealth Inequity.

An elf becomes an "Adult" within society shortly after 115 years have passed. So after you were born, constructed your social values, tested them, reiterated them, tested the new ones, and settled into a static mindset of the way things "Should Be", then died of old age, that Elf finally got out of High School and is ready to start testing her own social values for the first real time with no safety net.

Over the course of HALF her lifespan she'll learn more than you could possibly hope to simply because she's got more time to learn it in. And when she finally settles into the social value she considers appropriate and time-tested, she'll hold onto them for another 600 years or more. Over the course of her lifespan she'll accomplish far more than you ever will and will, eventually, almost certainly, attempt to hold political office. Only her ideals will have been formed 200 years before she got elected. Try to imagine someone who thinks Victorian England is the height of social order presiding over modern America.

Her values will be wildly out of touch with most humans who have had their society advance significantly in the past 200 years. But thanks to the -very- old population of Elves in the world she'll have a massive constituency that either thinks her appropriate... or -too- liberal and progressive but at least she's not as far off her rocker as any human that runs against her in an election. Y'know, depending on when their ideals of society solidified (Tudors, Renaissance, Late Middle Ages).

And it's not like Dwarves would be too far off the mark, either, with their extreme lifespans that often last through 5 generations of humans from birth to death. Especially in their fairly xenophobic and insular society based in great part on Traditional ideals. Gnomes, too, though their ideals are less Traditional, their massive lifespan would probably put them at odds with modern human society in great part.

Halflings would be right there with Humans, of course. But Orcs? They reach adulthood at 12. They're wild and chaotic and would probably bounce between social ideologies pretty hard throughout their short lives, constantly pushing the border of good taste and what is or isn't socially acceptable. They'd be the kind of neighbors who can't make up their minds about what sort of politics to support until they most likely cemented themselves in extreme progressive ideologies in their late 20s to mid 30s and stay there until they die around 50, constantly protesting -everything-.

You'd have a world where power, political and economic, would probably be centered in Elven and Dwarven hands, just due to their massive lifespans and how much money they can earn and save over the centuries. Even if through some quirk (or deific fiat) Technology mirrored our world the political climate would, most likely, still lean hard towards Feudalism and Monarchies with Democracies being fledgling attempts at a turmoil-ridden political system...

So it'd be interesting? But it might be better to look at a world far different from our own.

[Thrudd]

This thought exercise needs more agreed-upon specifics for the laws of magic. How many people can wield it? What exactly can it do, and what is required to make it work? How long do its effects last?

[Tetrasodium]

Since I have a bit more time I'll try to explain the comment, above, about different racial ideologies and their social impact and how drastically that would change any developing society -away- from anything resembling ours.

Elves are, perhaps, the single best example. They're often Chaotically aligned, favoring personal freedoms above basically anything, which is all well and good, but there are two major implications to a portion of society that lives for literally centuries (And in many settings up to a millenium if they even die of old age, at all): Extreme Social Conservatism, and Extreme Wealth Inequity.

An elf becomes an "Adult" within society shortly after 115 years have passed. So after you were born, constructed your social values, tested them, reiterated them, tested the new ones, and settled into a static mindset of the way things "Should Be", then died of old age, that Elf finally got out of High School and is ready to start testing her own social values for the first real time with no safety net.

Over the course of HALF her lifespan she'll learn more than you could possibly hope to simply because she's got more time to learn it in. And when she finally settles into the social value she considers appropriate and time-tested, she'll hold onto them for another 600 years or more. Over the course of her lifespan she'll accomplish far more than you ever will and will, eventually, almost certainly, attempt to hold political office. Only her ideals will have been formed 200 years before she got elected. Try to imagine someone who thinks Victorian England is the height of social order presiding over modern America.

Her values will be wildly out of touch with most humans who have had their society advance significantly in the past 200 years. But thanks to the -very- old population of Elves in the world she'll have a massive constituency that either thinks her appropriate... or -too- liberal and progressive but at least she's not as far off her rocker as any human that runs against her in an election. Y'know, depending on when their ideals of society solidified (Tudors, Renaissance, Late Middle Ages).

And it's not like Dwarves would be too far off the mark, either, with their extreme lifespans that often last through 5 generations of humans from birth to death. Especially in their fairly xenophobic and insular society based in great part on Traditional ideals. Gnomes, too, though their ideals are less Traditional, their massive lifespan would probably put them at odds with modern human society in great part.

Halflings would be right there with Humans, of course. But Orcs? They reach adulthood at 12. They're wild and chaotic and would probably bounce between social ideologies pretty hard throughout their short lives, constantly pushing the border of good taste and what is or isn't socially acceptable. They'd be the kind of neighbors who can't make up their minds about what sort of politics to support until they most likely cemented themselves in extreme progressive ideologies in their late 20s to mid 30s and stay there until they die around 50, constantly protesting -everything-.

You'd have a world where power, political and economic, would probably be centered in Elven and Dwarven hands, just due to their massive lifespans and how much money they can earn and save over the centuries. Even if through some quirk (or deific fiat) Technology mirrored our world the political climate would, most likely, still lean hard towards Feudalism and Monarchies with Democracies being fledgling attempts at a turmoil-ridden political system...

So it'd be interesting? But it might be better to look at a world far different from our own.

Since you mention Orcs, it seemed relevant that Keith Baker wrote about Orcs & goblinoids as nonhuman didividuals the other day http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-orcs-and-goblins/

[8wGremlin]

Thought Experiment - in 3 parts.

You have 50 1st level cave-elves (cavemen didn't work) in a world with little or no other threats (YET)
focusing on the first 2 levels of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.



food, water, warmth, rest
security, safety
relationships, friends
prestige feeling of accomplishments
self-actuation


How does the clan of cave-elves, each with a single wizard cantrip develop strategies to cope for those levels.

Part 2
Do the same for You have 50 1st level cave-variant-humans (each with a feat)
and the same with 50 1st level cave-gnomes, with Minor illusion

Part 3
What happens when the 3 clans interact?
What happens when food, or water resources are limited.

Thoughts?

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm presently DMing a game that has turned into a rather interesting social experiment. All of my players are aware of who they are and can bring their own knowledge to their interactions in-game (including rules exploitation), are completely immortal, and can gift magic very easily. They were also given a small kingdom to manage, with incentive to grow it.

They've made a trade deal with a neighboring hobgoblin nation to send a few low-level druids every now and then to enhance all their fields, making for exceptional crop growth that requires very little management. In return, they market these same foods cheaply to the other nation. This symbiosis led to peace and friendly acceptance between humans and hobgoblins on a personal and social level. On top of that, the magical enhancements mean very few farmers are actually needed to supply all the food required. This means there are more skilled artisans and a more intelligent society on the whole.

They also created a few low level clerics for the purpose of healing injuries and treating disease, intending to eventually get a core few access to resurrection magics if they can locate a decent diamond mine/trade for diamonds. This dramatically increased the life expectancy of their population, though it's also made them less cautious in return. If anything ever happened to these clerics, there'd be mass hysteria. For now, though, morale is high, people are more likely to achieve greater mastery and skill in their lifetime, and threats from plagues and the like are minimized. People started flocking to the country for their free health care system, rapidly increasing the population.

To settle the political troubles that came from old nobility returning to their nation and a populist government that had recently risen, they formed a senate council of equals that is overseen by rogues acting as a kind of CIA and paladins working as a kind of FBI. The players are the leaders of the country, without dispute, but the senate tends to be responsible for the day-to-day governance. Meanwhile, there's a strong cult of personality that's been in place since before the players even arrived, but so far the players haven't enforced themselves as the state religion. They've been... side stepping the issue. Education and the arts have been heavily supported and financed, with some of the players even occasionally making some of the art/teaching classes.

They've been making a habit of forming alliances and deals with basically everything that shares a language. They've got an adult black dragon living in a tower they constructed expressly for her, whom they've named state treasurer. She's been making sport of the nearby orcish nation which is about to become a serious issue, but hasn't come up yet. A well-organized nation of duergar are now their underground allies, there's a tribe of troglodytes, a handful of ogres, even orcs, their erst-while enemies to the east, who skipped the border and found welcoming arms in what's quickly becoming a small utopia.

Things aren't all peachy. Their orcish neighbors are furious and have a much larger army, poised to invade soon. The gold required to keep a nation like this running has been absolutely staggering, and will be until it reaches a certain zenith. The party has spent tens of thousands of gold already. Some of their projects have hit snags- a new village has had a huge influx in crime, racial tensions are starting to bubble up, a new harbor meant to bring in vast riches and trade has been extremely slow coming (unbeknownst to the part, it's due to a local kraken influencing events). The amount of magic they've been messing with was recently co-opted by an opposition regime financed by an enemy country, raising all of the dead in the entire country, much to everyone's horror. Martial law had to be declared to fix that, and no one liked it.

The proliferation of magic items has been widely constrained by the players so far. They know what kind of changes they might make, and they're not sure their country is ready for them yet. Until then, they've been selling them off to their duergar allies in exchange for gold and rare materials. Before anyone points out what a terrible idea this would normally be, a major discovery in this world is that the duergar and drow aren't actually evil, but are often attacked as such and have become heavily militarized as a result. Still, them having access to plentiful magical items is going to have an impact. They're getting dangerously close to a military coup.

It's been fun watching the players try to use magic to solve issues. It's so far led their society to be a very friendly, inviting, intelligent, and artistic community with a lot of pride and not a lot of hardship. Those same decisions are about to cause a few hammers to fall, of course, but that's the funny thing about power of any sort- there's always consequences.

[furby076]

Since I have a bit more time I'll try to explain the comment, above, about different racial ideologies and their social impact and how drastically that would change any developing society -away- from anything resembling ours.


Out of curiosity, whats your educational background. I've been reading a number of your posts, and you tend to write with conviction. Also, your above 2 posts imply a strong background in history, economics, sociology, political and societal theory. Not saying i agree or disagree with the above, but i am curious about you :)

[Steampunkette]

Out of curiosity, whats your educational background. I've been reading a number of your posts, and you tend to write with conviction. Also, your above 2 posts imply a strong background in history, economics, sociology, political and societal theory. Not saying i agree or disagree with the above, but i am curious about you :)

High school dropout.

Huge nerd, though. Lots of wandering around educational sites, forums of discussion, and a general history of geeky and gaming have given me a lot of information. Add to that a strong focus during schooling and home life on critical thinking and empathy, and being so bored one summer that I read the whole Encyclopedia Britannica...

Also PBS? As a kid we didn't have Cable, so I watched loads of PBS educational material. Cosmos. Connections. Cousteau. That kinda thing!

[Slayn82]

Going beyond Tippyverse, you have Cthullupunk.

Ancient beings migrating from world to world, dimension to dimension, ravaging all the valuable and limited resources (like slaves, souls, magic energy), before migrating somewhere else leaving the remains of the places pillaged to slowly recover by themselves (as in countless Aeons even Death may die...), leaving some servants and devices to keep watch on things until the next time the stars are right for their return.

Those ancient ruins you find that show signs of occupation of extinct civilizations are their vaults, periodically discovered by natives until the Old Ones return (like the Citatel in Mass Effect).

[KorvinStarmast]

What would a magically advanced society be like?
High magic world or low magic world?
Magic User magic only, or divine magic as well?

There are a lot of variations on the theme, so I'll share something we tried in a campaign from (a long time ago, 1e years)
--------------------------------------

We played in a DM's world that was kind of neat: magic was illegal unless you belonged to the cleric class, and an established temple/cult at that.
Druids were mostly excepted as being a cleric sub class.
Paladins and Rangers could, depending upon which temple held sway in a given region, get into trouble using magic in certain circumstances.

This meant that in urban/civilized areas, clerical magic was alive and well. While we played a low magic world (a 7th level cleric was considered quite rare and powerful, 9th levels were maybe one or two in a region, if there was one).

This made magic users an intriguing class to play: you had to be very reserved/careful about magic use in public. (The DM was good at games where politics/relationships were a big deal. Who you knew mattered).

We had a blast. Half of our motive for adventuring was to find magical items to use, or for our magic user to use, and another part was to keep the magic user's use of magic low key or undiscovered. (We were wanted men (and one woman) in three duchies before the campaign ended due to people moving IRL).

The premise of the campaign was that there had been a lot more magic use in the centuries previous, but (hey, we lived during the cold war, and the threat of nuclear destruction was sort of a daily deal) a cataclysm had occurred. Called, The Mage Wars. (Gee, who saw that one coming?)

For a long time "witch burning" and "wizard drowning" had become societal norms and habits. I had to kill (assassinate) a local sheriff who had it in for our magic user. (Well, that's how we chose to kiss that city good bye ...)

There was magic and old knowledge lurking about beyond the edges of civilization, but nothing open unless one was affiliated with a temple/clerical order, or druidical circle. The only magic users we met were out in the boonies, and they all had people, beasts, or monsters serving them for protection. Closer to civilization a few illusionists were around.

It was a really fun campaign.

What was the magic society like?
Disease free.
Full prisons. (Good luck with lying to the clerics in that world once you got interrogated. One of our best raids was the jail break for me ... grrr ).
Crops usually bountiful.
Politics? Heavily influenced by the local clergy, to the point that a couple of the duchies were theocracies, or near to it.
Paladins/clerics from the same temple were a seriously difficult group of people to deal with.

[Naanomi]

Magic has a tendency of going wrong... so most magic civilizations end up as fancy ruins for adventurers to explore. Read the history of Athas sometime if you want to see how that might play out

[furby076]

High school dropout.

Huge nerd, though. Lots of wandering around educational sites, forums of discussion, and a general history of geeky and gaming have given me a lot of information. Add to that a strong focus during schooling and home life on critical thinking and empathy, and being so bored one summer that I read the whole Encyclopedia Britannica...

Also PBS? As a kid we didn't have Cable, so I watched loads of PBS educational material. Cosmos. Connections. Cousteau. That kinda thing!

Wow. Interesting and definitely different. Good to read a HS dropout who continued to learn. Most dont. Thks for sharing

[Steampunkette]

Wow. Interesting and definitely different. Good to read a HS dropout who continued to learn. Most dont. Thks for sharing

Dropped out because of serious family issues, not because I wanted to. PM me if you wanna, but I'mma stop derailing the thread, here!

[RedMage125]

Since I have a bit more time I'll try to explain the comment, above, about different racial ideologies and their social impact and how drastically that would change any developing society -away- from anything resembling ours.

Elves are, perhaps, the single best example. They're often Chaotically aligned, favoring personal freedoms above basically anything, which is all well and good, but there are two major implications to a portion of society that lives for literally centuries (And in many settings up to a millenium if they even die of old age, at all): Extreme Social Conservatism, and Extreme Wealth Inequity.

An elf becomes an "Adult" within society shortly after 115 years have passed. So after you were born, constructed your social values, tested them, reiterated them, tested the new ones, and settled into a static mindset of the way things "Should Be", then died of old age, that Elf finally got out of High School and is ready to start testing her own social values for the first real time with no safety net.

Over the course of HALF her lifespan she'll learn more than you could possibly hope to simply because she's got more time to learn it in. And when she finally settles into the social value she considers appropriate and time-tested, she'll hold onto them for another 600 years or more. Over the course of her lifespan she'll accomplish far more than you ever will and will, eventually, almost certainly, attempt to hold political office. Only her ideals will have been formed 200 years before she got elected. Try to imagine someone who thinks Victorian England is the height of social order presiding over modern America.

Her values will be wildly out of touch with most humans who have had their society advance significantly in the past 200 years. But thanks to the -very- old population of Elves in the world she'll have a massive constituency that either thinks her appropriate... or -too- liberal and progressive but at least she's not as far off her rocker as any human that runs against her in an election. Y'know, depending on when their ideals of society solidified (Tudors, Renaissance, Late Middle Ages).


Common misconception about Elves. Elves actually age at about the same rate as humans (SLIGHTLY slower) until about age 20. They just have a longer "prime" of their lives. Not even another elf can tell a 25 yrd old elf from a 90 year old elf. This comes from Races of the Wild, a 3e supplement. You could absolutely have an elf who left home to be an adventurer at age 30 or 40. But 110 or so is when their society considers them "fully adult" enough to go out on their own. During those many decades is when they spend time learning sword and bow arts, as well as history, maybe a little magic (or at least familiarity with it), and generally do all of the "finding yourself" things we associate with college-age students. They just get decades. It's only in that last few decades before age 110 that they start focusing on what kind of "career" they want to pursue.

But elves are adaptable, and less likely-as a culture-to be "locked in" to a mindset from their youth. They also understand that other races move on and innovate faster than they do, and are very adaptable.

DWARVES might be the ones who think that 300 year old societal rules are the height of social order. Or have values that are 200 years out of date. Elves are more likely to adapt. Their way of thinking is more flexible. Wood Elves anyway. High Elves may be just as antiquated as you're talking about, but they're also generally kind of racist/ethnocentric.

[Steampunkette]

Common misconception about Elves. Elves actually age at about the same rate as humans (SLIGHTLY slower) until about age 20. They just have a longer "prime" of their lives. Not even another elf can tell a 25 yrd old elf from a 90 year old elf. This comes from Races of the Wild, a 3e supplement. You could absolutely have an elf who left home to be an adventurer at age 30 or 40. But 110 or so is when their society considers them "fully adult" enough to go out on their own. During those many decades is when they spend time learning sword and bow arts, as well as history, maybe a little magic (or at least familiarity with it), and generally do all of the "finding yourself" things we associate with college-age students. They just get decades. It's only in that last few decades before age 110 that they start focusing on what kind of "career" they want to pursue.

But elves are adaptable, and less likely-as a culture-to be "locked in" to a mindset from their youth. They also understand that other races move on and innovate faster than they do, and are very adaptable.

DWARVES might be the ones who think that 300 year old societal rules are the height of social order. Or have values that are 200 years out of date. Elves are more likely to adapt. Their way of thinking is more flexible. Wood Elves anyway. High Elves may be just as antiquated as you're talking about, but they're also generally kind of racist/ethnocentric.

I do agree that dwarves would be super conservative...

But elves are described as being isolationist in most settings. They hide their kingdoms away from the world, which represents a -very- conservative, even xenophobic, mindset. Closed borders, refusal to work with other races outside of a few dignitaries. It usually takes an "End of the World" scenario to get the Elven Army mobilized against clearly evil opponents alongside the other races of Goodness.

And let's not forget the century long grudges.

Heck, in Rise of Tiamat you've got King Melandrach on the Waterdeep Council as part of the Lord's Alliance. He's endlessly cautious and considered the Elven Retreat to be a mistake when it happened.

Sure, elves are the kind of people who go through mood swings and who love simple pleasures like dancing and singing. But from what we know of their political landscape they're very much a conservative people. Which makes sense, because older people tend to be more conservative, and elves are some of the oldest people around.

[Unoriginal]

Elves being isolationists doesn't mean they're conservative. Elves are chaotic, their society could change a lot when they're by themselves.

The isolationism is probably due to how they generally don't reproduce much and would have troubles keeping up in a more metropolitan society.

[FabulousFizban]

lazy and arrogant.

[Logosloki]

Depends (like it really needs to be said).

There are some ways I can see it going down.

Comfortable Apathy. Magic is really lazy and humans at least always look to decrease the time it takes to get themselves comfy. A magically advanced society of this degree would appear at least on the surface level low tech but thanks to magic is also low maintenance.

Reckless Hedonism. If you could do everything, what would you do? In a world where no error nor action within a very generous limit could actually harm you and there was no limit to what you could acquire or abstain from? You live long, you have everything you could desire and you've already done all the boring normal stuff, time to get a little...chaotic. Reckless hedonism relies on a stable, stagnant society that occupies a set number of areas and doesn't like to move out too much beyond that. Maybe they might wander a bit but there's no place like home.

Wandering Isolationists. There is an entire multiverse out there and you and maybe some of your closest friends could be out there seeing it all. There'll be dangers and hardships out there but logistics is not one of those. Really close to standard adventurers but coked up on magic and lit up like a christmas tree.

Planar gardeners. A bit more homebody than Wandering Isolationists, you set yourself up with a nice small demi-plane (or maybe some nice real estate on a real plane) and you make...whatever you like. When it is all done, you either move on or sit down and enjoy the fruit of your labour.

The craftworld. Named after the societies of post-slaneeshi eldar, this one is about wandering about but as a community. These don't necessarily need to be a strict as Eldar craftworlds (who do so because of the very real dangers that both follow them in life and in death) but living with others does mean that some things must be given up on to ease the collective.

Towering hermits. homebody isolationists. Society is scattered around into small parcels dominated by workshops and places of experimentation. Conflict is not always avoidable but tends to be smaller in scale due to the pressures of the surrounding towers.

Devoid. An extreme end of a long running magical society. Once you have accumulated enough it might be time to leave. Maybe some might scatter to pass on what they know, maybe some markers are left behind intentionally (or carelessly) but the lights have gone out and nobody is home.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Elves being isolationists doesn't mean they're conservative. Elves are chaotic, their society could change a lot when they're by themselves.

The isolationism is probably due to how they generally don't reproduce much and would have troubles keeping up in a more metropolitan society.
Actually, she's right for a different reason. Political liberalism is a very new thing in our own world- it's just over 400 years old. The term 'conservatism' was only coined in response to it. All medieval societies were conservative by this modern definition. You could even consider it a necessity in a world without both decent education and a surplus of necessities.

The only D&D worlds that might be able to lay claim to any form of modern liberalism might be Eberron, in places like Sharn, thanks to its pseudo-post-World War era. But I also haven't looked at their politics closely enough to tell.

[Naanomi]

DnD elves didn't tend to have a very strong government compared to other races. Their rulers were... organizers of big cities and coordinators of big magic projects; not really giving a lot of 'orders'. Elves were too prone to just say no or take off. In fact, most of the 'martialling of the eleven nation' for war and such comes from popular upswellings of a military leader or at the pressure of their racial church; not their 'kings' so much.

I'd argue they are more 'stagnant' than conservative. Dwarves want things to stay the same and work to make sure they do. Elves don't care about making 'progress' and sort of flit from one interestnto the next... they make some grand art or something along the way, but rarely in some organized 'society changing' way.

It is very much a trait of humans to be 'builders', to be concerned with their legacy and making their mark on the world. If a classic magic empire arose, I'd either expect it to be in the back of discoveries of humans in most settings (or the plundering of another older ancient magic empire)

[darjr]

Think of the most mundane thing ever.

Shoe laces for example.

Tech in that is actually quite grand.

Weaving and knitting mills. Robotic industrilization of packaging and the cars and trucks used to deliver it. Not to mention how the polymer used to make up the threads and then there is the tips of the shoe laces, what they are made of, how they were invented. And don't get me started on gromits in shoes.

So in a magic world what would replace those parts? Do you still wan't shoe laces or start at the beginning and see where magic leads?

Rinse repeat.

[War_lord]

Actually, she's right for a different reason. Political liberalism is a very new thing in our own world- it's just over 400 years old. The term 'conservatism' was only coined in response to it. All medieval societies were conservative by this modern definition. You could even consider it a necessity in a world without both decent education and a surplus of necessities.

The only D&D worlds that might be able to lay claim to any form of modern liberalism might be Eberron, in places like Sharn, thanks to its pseudo-post-World War era. But I also haven't looked at their politics closely enough to tell.

Applying modern political labels to people 500 years ago is just as inaccurate to applying them to fantasy worlds with magic, multiple sentient races, living gods and an entirely different history to us. People in Medieval Europe didn't have the same worldview as us, and even the term "People in Medieval Europe" covers a diverse group of people over a very long period of time.

The level of sexual freedom in Forgotten Realms is very Liberal, but the people there probably don't see it as anything unusual.

As for Elves apparently being super conservative because they live so long. They also stay young for that long, so they're unlikely to be as conservative as an 80 year old human at 80, because they don't have the same fear of death and a world passing them by as an aged human does. An Elven worldview would be radically different to a human one.

[JackPhoenix]

The level of sexual freedom in Forgotten Realms is very Liberal, but the people there probably don't see it as anything unusual.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with any attempt to depict medieval society, but everything to do with Ed Greenwood being a dirty old man :smallbiggrin:

But yes, it is the same reason why alignment threads bloat do dozens of pages around here, because certain people try to apply their modern moral standards to a different society (not that they are entirely wrong, alignment is partially based on those standards).

[War_lord]

Author fantasies do play a role. But I question the idea that fantasy fiction has to depict our Medieval society. George RR Martin's Westeros and Essos are much grittier then anything we see in D&D, but it's still more socially permissive in many ways then our world. In my opinion a fantasy world can be as permissive as the author wants it to be, so long as it makes sense within the internal social logic of the world. On the other hand, there's really no excuse for fantasy authors making entire planets of straight white people, with the only major players being men.

[Steampunkette]

"Applying modern ideology to historical fantasy"

... that's... just silly.

Of course you can apply modern understandings of complex social, economic, and governmental systems. Feudal Societies were Capitalist. Even though the term wasn't created until the 1600s it perfectly describes a Feudal Society in which the means of production are controlled by private individuals (Knights, Lords, Kings, Etc) who paid their workers for their work (Generally in the form of allowing them a certain amount of the crops they farmed) and leased land/homes/whatever to them and applied taxes, to boot.

Conservatism is defined as a political ideology which promotes maintaining traditional social and economic mores. Sure, the word didn't get invented 'til the 1800s but you can be absolutely certain there were Conservatives all throughout history. Heck, there's a reason we've got Greek and Latin texts about kids not respecting their elders and listening to garbage music.

Regardless of what setting you look into, Elves have been living in the same way for thousands of years. Whether they're mostly nomadic, mostly stationary, xenophobic with closed borders, or what have you. Their culture, traditions, and civilization remain about the same forever. Maybe it's got to do with the inherent stability of extended lifespans balancing out any given chaotic drive in one direction or another (Eventually everyone swings back toward the middle, essentially). But their middle appears to lean Conservative.

And in a world where technology and science work with magic to push to a more modern era, where progressivism is a big deal, I feel like Elves would try to shut that down, try to hold onto their past. And if it's a nigh-monocultural society (Like Western Culture in the real world) they'd hold massive quantities of economic and political power.

If they were to remain xenophobic their society would likely be split off from "Humankind" with a much more traditionally Elven style (Whatever that means for the given setting). They might even be antagonistic to the rebellious upstarts and expansionist nature of Humanity.

[War_lord]

"Applying modern ideology to historical fantasy"

... that's... just silly.

Of course you can apply modern understandings of complex social, economic, and governmental systems. Feudal Societies were Capitalist. Even though the term wasn't created until the 1600s it perfectly describes a Feudal Society in which the means of production are controlled by private individuals (Knights, Lords, Kings, Etc) who paid their workers for their work (Generally in the form of allowing them a certain amount of the crops they farmed) and leased land/homes/whatever to them and applied taxes, to boot.

Emm, no, no it wasn't. Capitalism is defined as "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market". Feudalism didn't have a free market, trade was controlled by the nobility and land was granted by the crown in exchange for military service or payment in kind. Not capitalism.


Conservatism is defined as a political ideology which promotes maintaining traditional social and economic mores. Sure, the word didn't get invented 'til the 1800s but you can be absolutely certain there were Conservatives all throughout history. Heck, there's a reason we've got Greek and Latin texts about kids not respecting their elders and listening to garbage music.

That's not Conservatism. Just like "I don't have a problem with gays" does not make a Progressive. Conservative as an ideology didn't exist until there was a Progressive ideology to push back against.


Regardless of what setting you look into, Elves have been living in the same way for thousands of years. Whether they're mostly nomadic, mostly stationary, xenophobic with closed borders, or what have you. Their culture, traditions, and civilization remain about the same forever. Maybe it's got to do with the inherent stability of extended lifespans balancing out any given chaotic drive in one direction or another (Eventually everyone swings back toward the middle, essentially). But their middle appears to lean Conservative.

Or, you know, it could be because fantasy writers, like Sci-fi writers tend to have trouble writing diverse civilizations, so that everybody comes off as a stiffing mono-culture that never evolves. I don't know how you can read the definition of Chaotic and think "yes, these people are clearly Conservative", unless your definition of Conservative is as simplified as your definition of Capitalist.


And in a world where technology and science work with magic to push to a more modern era, where progressivism is a big deal, I feel like Elves would try to shut that down, try to hold onto their past. And if it's a nigh-monocultural society (Like Western Culture in the real world) they'd hold massive quantities of economic and political power.

"Western culture" is not Monocultural, to think that you'd have to have serious blinders on when it comes to other countries to believe tha. Science in our world led to rationalism, which led to Religious skepticism, which led to secularism, which opened the door to Progressive thought. That's not going to work that way in a world with Gods and creatures that are literally avatars of Goodness and the will of the Good Gods who can communicate EXACTLY what their will is.


If they were to remain xenophobic their society would likely be split off from "Humankind" with a much more traditionally Elven style (Whatever that means for the given setting). They might even be antagonistic to the rebellious upstarts and expansionist nature of Humanity.

And now you're just totally diverging into personal headcanon.

[Naanomi]

Elves don't care much about the doings of humans overall.. their empires rise and fall quick enough that so long as they stay on 'their side of the fence' (usually not hard to encourage, one of the reasons most elves stay friendly with humans is to help steer them to 'wise decisions' from an elven perspective) elves could care less what they do. Elves are not conservative in that they try to keep things the way they are, they just don't care enough to change things on a large scale. Elves are too busy doing their own thing, pursuing their own interests, to band together and make sweeping changes to their lifestyle or culture

[Draco4472]

While not quite what you're looking for, try the Eberron Campaign Setting.

See above. Eberron is more 'magic is commonplace' then a society where magic has overtaken technology to the point of modern levels.

[Steampunkette]

Emm, no, no it wasn't. Capitalism is defined as "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market". Feudalism didn't have a free market, trade was controlled by the nobility and land was granted by the crown in exchange for military service or payment in kind. Not capitalism.

All Property belonged to the local Royal Family, which was a private entity, until it was transferred to lords and knights who you might also notice are private entities. And yeah, there -was- a free market, War, as different nations traded among themselves, and merchants and craftsmen created and sold goods to various people who weren't exclusively the King and the Lords. The prices and relative values of Chickens and Goats and Chairs and what have you fluctuated based on a variety of factors and were not set by the governing body (As you would have in a socialist system).

Now you could argue that there were multiple markets, some free and some not, and that'd be fine. But to say that there was no free market whatsoever is just disingenuous. There were Phoenician Merchants plying the Mediterranean in 1500 BC. They didn't vanish once France handed someone a crown and said "You're the king".

Worth Noting: Most of England still technically belongs to the Royal Family and the Royals -allow- England to use it. Of course if they ever exercised their rights of control over the land the Parliament would probably strip their rights away through something similar to Manifest Destiny... but yeah. That's Private Ownership. And the King of England in 800ad certainly didn't hold a vote to determine how to use his land.


That's not Conservatism. Just like "I don't have a problem with gays" does not make a Progressive. Conservative as an ideology didn't exist until there was a Progressive ideology to push back against.

That's both true and false. You're making the argument that their ideology is not Conservativism. I'm not making the argument that their ideology was Conservativism... but CONSERVATIVE. As in trying to maintain traditions, not the modern political party setup in America. We're talking past each other on this one.


Or, you know, it could be because fantasy writers, like Sci-fi writers tend to have trouble writing diverse civilizations, so that everybody comes off as a stiffing mono-culture that never evolves. I don't know how you can read the definition of Chaotic and think "yes, these people are clearly Conservative", unless your definition of Conservative is as simplified as your definition of Capitalist.

Sure, writers have issues writing diverse cultures that aren't completely reflective of real-world cultures in fractured mirrors so they tend to create Monocultures. What's your point?

I'm not sitting here and saying "Real World Elves are Conservatives!" I can only discuss them within the written narratives they exist in. And in that narrative they fall to a Conservative Bent. Traditionalist to a fault.


"Western culture" is not Monocultural, to think that you'd have to have serious blinders on when it comes to other countries to believe tha. Science in our world led to rationalism, which led to Religious skepticism, which led to secularism, which opened the door to Progressive thought. That's not going to work that way in a world with Gods and creatures that are literally avatars of Goodness and the will of the Good Gods who can communicate EXACTLY what their will is.

Western Culture is largely monocultural. You could discuss Southwest American Culture, or Albertan Culture in Canada, but there is a monoculture that connects them that is "Western Culture".

But you are right that Secularism and Religious Skepticism probably won't happen in a fantasy world where Gods -clearly- exist and interfere in world events. However, technology changes the way people live. And magical technology would also change the way people live. And with that comes different economic ideals, extremist viewpoints, culture-bubbles, and so forth. Unless Chauntea steps down and literally tells her followers "No. No. Don't you dare take over those Nationally Controlled nature preserves for use as Farmland!" You can bet your backside there's going to be members of her religion who think it's the "Will of Chauntea" to farm that land (Based entirely on their personal wants and needs).


And now you're just totally diverging into personal headcanon.

The whole thing is headcanon, War Lord. All of it.

[Arcangel4774]

Some sociologist sickest that society advances by the ability to create and hold surplus. The first component to a magically advance society would be the increase in production through magic. This leads to an increase in sharing, good will, and trading. This will eventually advance to magically saving that surplus, such as magical preservatives and an economy. At first the economy will have a representative currency, (most currencies were gold backed). But it should inflate past that point. Have a magically elite class that exercise connections and their magical ability, and than a prolitariat class of people with little to know magical aptitude.