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JNAProductions
2017-07-28, 11:10 PM
Step one: Remove Constitution. Let's be honest, everyone needs it, everyone uses it, but it's BORING. It's entirely passive-about the only ACTIVE use of Constitution I can think of is a drinking contest. Speaking of which, things like drinking contests, Concentration saves, Cone of Cold saves, etc., now fall under Strength. Strength can, if you like, be renamed something like "Body", but that's not needed.

Make the following changes to races:

Dwarves gain +1 Strength
Hill Dwarves gain +2 Wisdom
Mountain Dwarves gain an additional +1 to Strength and gain the ability "Solid As Stone"-once per short rest, as a bonus action, gain resistance to all damage until the end of your next turn.
Stout Halflings gain +1 Strength
Rock Gnomes gain +1 Strength
Half-Orcs gain +1 to any stat besides Strength

Make the following changes to classes:

Barbarians gain Charisma saves
Fighters gain Intelligence saves
Sorcerers gain Strength saves

Now, lastly, HP. HP is now Hit Die+Proficiency Bonus (max at first level).

Point buy should also be dropped to probably 24 now.

JBPuffin
2017-07-28, 11:47 PM
Step one: Remove Constitution. Let's be honest, everyone needs it, everyone uses it, but it's BORING. It's entirely passive-about the only ACTIVE use of Constitution I can think of is a drinking contest. Speaking of which, things like drinking contests, Concentration saves, Cone of Cold saves, etc., now fall under Strength. Strength can, if you like, be renamed something like "Body", but that's not needed.

Make the following changes to races:

Dwarves gain +1 Strength
Hill Dwarves gain +2 Wisdom
Mountain Dwarves gain an additional +1 to Strength and gain the ability "Solid As Stone"-once per short rest, as a bonus action, gain resistance to all damage until the end of your next turn.
Stout Halflings gain +1 Strength
Rock Gnomes gain +1 Strength
Half-Orcs gain +1 to any stat besides Strength

Make the following changes to classes:

Barbarians gain Charisma saves
Fighters gain Intelligence saves
Sorcerers gain Strength saves

Now, lastly, HP. HP is now Hit Die+Proficiency Bonus (max at first level).

Point buy should also be dropped to probably 24 now.

If for whatever reason I stop using MPMB's auto-sheet for 5e, I'd like to test this rule out...eh, I have a Word 5e sheet somewhere, I think.

JNAProductions
2017-07-28, 11:48 PM
If for whatever reason I stop using MPMB's auto-sheet for 5e, I'd like to test this rule out...eh, I have a Word 5e sheet somewhere, I think.

Thank you! Let me know how it goes, and if anything is missing/could be improved.

Knaight
2017-07-29, 12:01 AM
Now, lastly, HP. HP is now Hit Die+Proficiency Bonus (max at first level).

Are proficiency bonuses applied retroactively (as in to prior levels) or not? If not, it makes generating higher level characters take a few more computations.

JNAProductions
2017-07-29, 12:04 AM
Are proficiency bonuses applied retroactively (as in to prior levels) or not? If not, it makes generating higher level characters take a few more computations.

It is applied retroactively. Now, this does give your higher level players more HP than expected, but that's a feature, not a bug.

zeek0
2017-07-29, 01:39 AM
One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.

I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.

JBPuffin
2017-07-29, 02:13 AM
One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.

I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.

It does also bump everyone's HP, and while martials may benefit most...casters also have an extra 12/14 to place wherever they want.

Knaight
2017-07-30, 10:55 PM
One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.

I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.

So it bumps up the weaker classes a bit. If anything that's another reason to make this change.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-31, 07:57 AM
One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.

I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.
It's a versatility upgrade, at least slightly, but it might be a slight power downgrade to heavy-melee types who'd normally have invested more heavily in Con. At least at lower levels. But a starting +2 is certainly viable.

(For the record, I had a similar idea using [HD average-1] as your Con mod, so a Wizard's d6 would give them +2 HP, a Rogue's d8 a +3, and so on)

SemiNoodle
2018-04-01, 07:00 AM
First off, the proficiency bonus to HP rather than CON is a great idea especially given the description of HP as not really being meat points but instead "don't die" points. I just worry that healthy characters will also be strong and by default half decent melee fighters and it also makes for odd roleplaying/in-world shenanigans when you use Strength rather than Constitution. I tend to be a DM that loves diseases, poisons, and other lovely Constitution based nastiness and like to give players the option to play healthy yet weak characters.

GreatWyrmGold
2018-04-01, 07:09 AM
I was expecting this to consolidate Intelligence and Charisma (two stats which really only have a few skills, arcane spellcasting, and one save per blue moon between them), but this is actually well-thought-out and interesting.

JNAProductions
2018-04-01, 09:47 AM
I was expecting this to consolidate Intelligence and Charisma (two stats which really only have a few skills, arcane spellcasting, and one save per blue moon between them), but this is actually well-thought-out and interesting.

Thanks! Been a while since I touched this, but glad to see it's appreciated. :)

AvatarVecna
2018-04-02, 10:10 AM
This fix needs a bit more work. First and foremost, you need to put some thought into saving throws. Let's ignore how a bunch of classes have Constitution as a save, we'll get back to that - let's focus on effects that call for Con saves right now. Some effects calling for Con saves will be purely a matter of physical fortitude, and your ability to throw them off is a physical thing; these would probably need to become Str saves; then, there's some that are more about your stubbornness and determination to remain unaffected, which would probably fall under Wis saves; finally, there are some AoE effects (that spray poison and the like) which could potentially fall under some kind of "reflex to keep any from getting in your mouth/eyes/whatever" kind of Dex save...that being said, all three categories are kind of a stretch, and Con is the best way to deal with all of them (which is why they're Con saves in the first place). Additionally, the vast majority of these are probably going to be split evenly between Str and Wis, essentially making Wis a primary save, Str/Dex secondary saves, and Int/Cha tertiary ones. This complicates the save proficiency system, where currently every class has a primary and a secondary, and that's ignoring how this particular system would require going through the spell lists and declaring which Con save spells are now Str, Dex, or Wis. Even if we assume that all the Con saves go to Str to keep things simple, that just makes Str/Dex/Wis primaries and Int/Cha secondaries. Now any class with Str/Wis or Str/Dex has two primary saves (Monk and Ranger are the core classes that come to mind), which should be rectified to be more in line with the others. And none of this is even touching on Concentration. One of the features of the base system for casting is that the only caster class that starts with proficiency in Con saves is the sorcerer, which when you look at the spell list it's clearly set up as a battle mage. Whether you push Concentration into Wis, or push it into {casting stat}, you'll be making Concentration saves easier across the board.

Constitution checks have a similar issue to spells that call for Con saves; you might not have thought of too many examples yourself, but the PHB lists five examples to get the gears going: holding your breath (Str?), march/labor for hours without rest (Str? Wis?), go without sleep (Wis?), survive without food or water (Wis?), chug a beer (...Str?), as well as the aforementioned drinking contest (...Wis?). All of these are stretches as Str or Wis, but are extremely fitting as Con checks.

Finally, while rare, there are some class features based on Constitution. The primary one that comes to mind is the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense, which...I guess would be part of Str now?

Lalliman
2018-04-02, 12:22 PM
Some effects calling for Con saves will be purely a matter of physical fortitude, and your ability to throw them off is a physical thing; these would probably need to become Str saves; then, there's some that are more about your stubbornness and determination to remain unaffected, which would probably fall under Wis saves; finally, there are some AoE effects (that spray poison and the like) which could potentially fall under some kind of "reflex to keep any from getting in your mouth/eyes/whatever" kind of Dex save...that being said, all three categories are kind of a stretch, and Con is the best way to deal with all of them (which is why they're Con saves in the first place).
You must be looking at it differently, because I don't recognise a problem. High Str means you're larger and heavier. You have more mass, more blood, probably a stronger cardiovascular system, etc. I have no doubt that effects involving poison, disease, fatigue and cold can be covered by Str. The fact that some of these could fall under Dex doesn't change that. And I can't really think of any Con saves that I would describe as being mainly about stubbornness and determination. Can you give an example?


Even if we assume that all the Con saves go to Str to keep things simple, that just makes Str/Dex/Wis primaries and Int/Cha secondaries. Now any class with Str/Wis or Str/Dex has two primary saves (Monk and Ranger are the core classes that come to mind), which should be rectified to be more in line with the others.
This is indeed a problem given the established system, and it isn't easily fixed because neither Int nor Cha are appropriate to the monk and ranger. It's unfortunate, but I'd be willing to live with monks and rangers having two good saves for the sake of making this streamlined system work. Especially since they're two of the more underwhelming classes, and both are supposed to be resilient to magic.


And none of this is even touching on Concentration. One of the features of the base system for casting is that the only caster class that starts with proficiency in Con saves is the sorcerer, which when you look at the spell list it's clearly set up as a battle mage. Whether you push Concentration into Wis, or push it into {casting stat}, you'll be making Concentration saves easier across the board.
In line with my earlier comment, I feel absolutely no issue with making concentration Str-based. It was always more about biting through a physical disruption than about keeping your mind clear, else it wouldn't have been Con-based in the first place.


Constitution checks have a similar issue to spells that call for Con saves; you might not have thought of too many examples yourself, but the PHB lists five examples to get the gears going: holding your breath (Str?), march/labor for hours without rest (Str? Wis?), go without sleep (Wis?), survive without food or water (Wis?), chug a beer (...Str?), as well as the aforementioned drinking contest (...Wis?). All of these are stretches as Str or Wis, but are extremely fitting as Con checks.
Drinking alcohol easily falls under Str by my measure. The others are a bit of a stretch, but they're rare enough that I'm willing to sacrifice that tiny bit of realism for the sake of a more streamlined system.


Finally, while rare, there are some class features based on Constitution. The primary one that comes to mind is the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense, which...I guess would be part of Str now?
Given that Con is a mandatory raise for all characters anyways, this doesn't really make them any more SAD than before. And characters with Con-based features tend to be Str-based anyways (barbarians and dragonborn are the only ones I can think of), so you're not taking this feature away from low-Str characters.

Of course, whether you like this fix will always depend on personal preference, since it can be highly idiosyncratic which abstractions someone does or does not accept. But I've run other systems that work just like this, filing rolls that would be Con-based in D&D under Strength (or the equivalent stat). I've never seen someone question it, even people who had played D&D previously. So I think there's nothing wrong with applying the same thing here.

JNAProductions
2018-04-02, 12:25 PM
Also, I did mention possibly renaming "Strength" to simply "Body"-while it certainly doesn't map 1-to-1 to reality, it makes sense that someone who is stronger is tougher.

GreatWyrmGold
2018-04-11, 11:12 AM
For what it's worth...putting aside how strength and toughness are often correlated IRL, I've seen very few characters with a high Strength and an average or worse Constitution, and only a few more with high Constitution and average Strength. These patterns are even stronger in the source fiction (ie, the standard fantasy works which D&D has been stealing from and been robbed by for decades).

Eric Diaz
2018-07-21, 06:04 PM
Also, I did mention possibly renaming "Strength" to simply "Body"-while it certainly doesn't map 1-to-1 to reality, it makes sense that someone who is stronger is tougher.


For what it's worth...putting aside how strength and toughness are often correlated IRL, I've seen very few characters with a high Strength and an average or worse Constitution, and only a few more with high Constitution and average Strength. These patterns are even stronger in the source fiction (ie, the standard fantasy works which D&D has been stealing from and been robbed by for decades).

I agree, this is why I like this idea.

However, I like the idea of turning Str and Con into a single stat - "Body" will do. HP is based on body, and now everyone has to be a bit stronger, but they have extra points to do that.

Almost no changes are needed... barbarians get a bit tougher, but Primal Champion is unchanged (and maybe they get proficient in a single save...), so no big deal. Monks and Paladins become stronger, same for Dex fighters - which I like.

Only caveat I see is that now Int and Cha are REALLY dump stats by comparison...

Nifft
2018-07-21, 06:42 PM
Hmm, so perhaps a PC who is strong-not-tough would have Athletics (Str) proficiency -- or even expertise -- but not Str save proficiency.

A character who is tough-not-strong would have Str save proficiency but not Athletics (Str) proficiency, and would not use Str-based attacks (possibly due to a lack of weapon proficiency).


In terms of HP, I think the Proficiency bonus scales too well at the high end, especially for non-Barbarians. Not sure what to replace it with though. Could be a flat class bonus, modified by race & feats.

Maat Mons
2018-07-21, 07:21 PM
Oh, hey. Looks like I'm not the only one who's been contemplating stat mergers. If it helps, some names I've considered for the str/con combo are: Might, Brawn, Athletics, Fitness, Vigor, Power, Muscle, Build, Heft, and Ferocity.

GreatWyrmGold
2018-08-08, 03:51 PM
Only caveat I see is that now Int and Cha are REALLY dump stats by comparison...
When I saw the threat title, I assumed it would be about merging Intelligence and Charisma. It makes plenty of sense, mechanically; aside from skills, they're pretty much only used for arcane spellcasting and resisting some mental spells. Of course, it makes much less sense from a fluff point of view; there are plenty of idiotic people-people, and even more geniuses with no social skills.

Spectrulus
2018-08-13, 12:19 PM
It's a really different idea... But I see the merits. I'll ask my players next time we roll up to try it out for a campaign. Thanks for sharing!

JNAProductions
2018-08-13, 12:40 PM
It's a really different idea... But I see the merits. I'll ask my players next time we roll up to try it out for a campaign. Thanks for sharing!

Let me know how it goes!

Nifft
2018-08-13, 01:37 PM
Seeing this, I'm kinda inspired to turn 5e into a 4-stat system.

Strength (Str + Con)
Dexterity
Intuition (Int + Wis)
Charisma

Casters would be fairly well split between Charisma and Intuition. Take the opportunity to merge the skills Nature and Survival, and remove a minor fridge-logic moment where a PC can name traits about nearby plants OR know what's good to eat, but somehow those are separate checks which don't influence each other.

I suspect the biggest challenge would be to make each of the four stats a "Good" saving throw, and then change all the classes to only grant one of them with an option on a second.

GreatWyrmGold
2018-08-17, 11:26 AM
I suspect the biggest challenge would be to make each of the four stats a "Good" saving throw, and then change all the classes to only grant one of them with an option on a second.
75% aren't too tricky, and we'd just need to find some (mostly Wisdom) saves which could be reframed as being more about force of personality.

Draz74
2018-08-18, 09:33 AM
Oh, hey. Looks like I'm not the only one who's been contemplating stat mergers. If it helps, some names I've considered for the str/con combo are: Might, Brawn, Athletics, Fitness, Vigor, Power, Muscle, Build, Heft, and Ferocity.

I'd go with Physique.

Teaguethebean
2018-10-02, 09:53 PM
how would you do barbarian unarmored defense

Paleomancer
2018-10-02, 10:45 PM
Seeing this, I'm kinda inspired to turn 5e into a 4-stat system.

Strength (Str + Con)
Dexterity
Intuition (Int + Wis)
Charisma

Casters would be fairly well split between Charisma and Intuition. Take the opportunity to merge the skills Nature and Survival, and remove a minor fridge-logic moment where a PC can name traits about nearby plants OR know what's good to eat, but somehow those are separate checks which don't influence each other.

I suspect the biggest challenge would be to make each of the four stats a "Good" saving throw, and then change all the classes to only grant one of them with an option on a second.

I rather like this one. A similar system is used in online game Fallen London - Dangerousness is combat (sorta Strength), Shadowy is cunning and sneakiness (sorta Dexterity), Watchful is aptitude, intellect, and willpower (Intelligence plus mental Wisdom), and Persuasive is guile, charm, and wit (Charisma and social Wisdom). While the D&D version is somewhat different, it still works. Wisdom has always struck me as a weird ability score anyway - it's practically a synonym for experience. Some Wisdom saves are probably better suited to Charisma anyway. This does mean each class will potentially have two strong saves, but so will monsters.

As for Nature/Survival, it's a lot closer to reality than one might think. A horticulturalist is going to know a lot about plant care, a botanist plant knows lifecycles and ecology, a biochemist knows plant chemistry and medicine, and a survivalist knows plant edibility. Plus knowing a plant is edible isn't the same as knowing how to prepare the plant safely; acorns are slightly toxic and must be soaked in water for days, multiple baths, before they can be ground up and eaten by humans. I certainly wouldn't risk it myself, even though I am aware it must be done.

Rayqua
2019-04-22, 11:55 AM
What would the level 20 Barbarian feature be? They get +4 to STR and CON... Would it be like a +6 to STR?

JNAProductions
2019-04-22, 12:24 PM
+4 Strength only.

olskool
2019-04-24, 12:22 AM
I see no major issues with dropping CON. I won't be doing it though. I use Hitpoints as a sort of "stun system" where you lose the will to fight once you are reduced to 0 hp BUT you don't die. I have a SEPARATE track called WOUNDS (which I easily converted to 5e by using the Exhaustion rules since they were very similar to my Wounds rules anyway). Basically, I give every character a Wound track equal to their CON + Level and this total is divided into the 6 Levels of Exhaustion in the 5e PHB with surplus Wound levels being added to each tier starting with the 1st tier of the Exhaustion track. Thus I'll be keeping CON for my Wounds system as I like how it works to increase 5e's lethality.

I would change WISDOM into WILLPOWER, though. This is just a personal preference for me. Willpower represents mental strength, determination, and a general "stubbornness" in a PC. This is a quantifiable CHARACTER TRAIT that can be measured by an ability score for role-playing purposes just like STR, CON, DEX, INT, and to a lesser extent CHA.

WISDOM, on the other hand, is a "measure" of how much one "understands" the world and how it "works" and is based on one's "experiences" in that world. This is VERY HARD to quantify as a statistical value and more appropriately represents a PLAYER TRAIT instead of a Characteristic or Attribute. Therefore, I always change Wisdom to Willpower in my games.

GreatWyrmGold
2019-04-24, 02:07 PM
I would change WISDOM into WILLPOWER, though. This is just a personal preference for me. Willpower represents mental strength, determination, and a general "stubbornness" in a PC. This is a quantifiable CHARACTER TRAIT that can be measured by an ability score for role-playing purposes just like STR, CON, DEX, INT, and to a lesser extent CHA.

WISDOM, on the other hand, is a "measure" of how much one "understands" the world and how it "works" and is based on one's "experiences" in that world. This is VERY HARD to quantify as a statistical value and more appropriately represents a PLAYER TRAIT instead of a Characteristic or Attribute. Therefore, I always change Wisdom to Willpower in my games.
Aren't intelligence and charisma equally unquantifiable traits, which in practice depend on how good the player is at acting intelligent or personable? And how does willpower relate to one's perceptiveness (both in a literal Perception sense and in some related skills &c, e.g. Insight)?

olskool
2019-04-24, 10:37 PM
Aren't intelligence and charisma equally unquantifiable traits, which in practice depend on how good the player is at acting intelligent or personable? And how does willpower relate to one's perceptiveness (both in a literal Perception sense and in some related skills &c, e.g. Insight)?

Intelligence is fairly quantifiable which is why we have IQ tests. Playing a "smart" character can be hard but you can substitute things like knowledge or idea rolls for the PLAYER role-playing Intelligence. It is MUCH harder for a player to act "wise" and the DM may be hard-pressed to come up with a roll to counteract impulsive or foolish behavior by that player.

Charisma is more difficult to quantify because it like Wisdom is "nebulous" in nature. Hitler had the Charisma to allow the Nazis to rise to power but I doubt anyone would really consider him to be either good-looking or personable. Yet, he rose to power due to his Charisma. Likewise, many movie stars are only average looking but there is "something" about them that causes them to be popular. Often this is their self-confidence but it could be other traits we see as desirable in a given culture. It is my own "viewpoint" that Charisma is based on what a society "views" as charismatic that causes me to impose a -10 on the trait when a character is interacting with a foreign society or race. There is a certain level of "prejudice" in every society towards "strangers" or foreigners that must be overcome through interaction with said society before the penalty towards CHA-based tasks is reduced or negated. This is just something that I do based on my own experiences during my military and law enforcement careers.

Willpower can relate to perception by being a measure of how patient and how attentive a Character is. The more patient and detail-oriented a character is, the more they will tend to notice. I dislike single characteristic skill/proficiency roots anyway (a reason I played Runequest/BRP for years until my current group insisted on playing 5e). In my opinion, Perception should be a combination of Willpower (a measure of patience) and Intelligence (understanding WHAT you're really seeing). That doesn't work well in 5e though.

JNAProductions
2019-04-24, 10:42 PM
I would appreciate Godwin's Law not being proved right so soon in a homebrew thread for D&D.

Knaight
2019-04-24, 11:41 PM
Intelligence is fairly quantifiable which is why we have IQ tests. Playing a "smart" character can be hard but you can substitute things like knowledge or idea rolls for the PLAYER role-playing Intelligence. It is MUCH harder for a player to act "wise" and the DM may be hard-pressed to come up with a roll to counteract impulsive or foolish behavior by that player.

We could make charisma tests too, that doesn't retroactively make it quantifiable. IQ tests have serious issues in terms of measuring intelligence, especially if you use them outside the parameters they're intended for (which is identifying people with severe intellectual disabilities; once you go over the average the test starts fraying fast). You can study for them, the proxies selected for intelligence tend to break hard when dealing with non-native speakers, there are cultural biases built into the verbal portions of the test in terms of the expected material culture of test takers. Similar issues apply to some of the other pattern recognition parts, where it's more about knowing the expected patterns and being able to identify things from that list than being able to recognize patterns more generally (not finding a pattern and finding a true but unanticipated pattern both fail equally).

GreatWyrmGold
2019-04-25, 02:48 PM
Intelligence is fairly quantifiable which is why we have IQ tests.
A quick Google search (https://www.google.com/search?q=problems+with+iq+tests&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS809US809&oq=problems+with+iq+test&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l4.3209j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) calls BS on this. I thought that was common knowledge by now...


Playing a "smart" character can be hard but you can substitute things like knowledge or idea rolls for the PLAYER role-playing Intelligence. It is MUCH harder for a player to act "wise" and the DM may be hard-pressed to come up with a roll to counteract impulsive or foolish behavior by that player.
Two points.
1. You absolutely can substitute rolls for player wisdom. The DM can ask the player to roll a "common sense" check as easily as a Knowledge check; I know because I've done that myself.
2. You absolutely can't expect either Intelligence or Wisdom checks to replace player intelligence/wisdom. I've dropped hints thanks to PC Intelligence checks that the player completely failed to grasp the significance of, and this isn't just a "me" issue.
Yesterday, I was playing in a D&D game at the local game shop, and the next table over was struggling with a puzzle. The characters had (I assumed) made Intelligence checks of some sort to sort out how the instructions riddle and the puzzle interacted; the DM had to repeat the check-derived hint that the riddle wasn't talking about the eyeless statue when it mentioned a statue seeing something, several times, before it sank in. The characters were plenty smart to put it together, the players made the rolls, but for one reason or another the players weren't bright enough to put it together.


Willpower can relate to perception by being a measure of how patient and how attentive a Character is.
Not really. Putting aside numerous depictions of fictional characters who both "strong-willed" and impulsive, distractible, and/or oblivious*, I've met plenty of people in real life who were stubborn (basically the only way a strong will can manifest without mind magic, psychic powers, or the like) and oblivious. You can make any justification for why one person's willpower improves their attentiveness, but it doesn't apply to everyone, because the two concepts are only tangentially connected.

*Sometimes even portraying these characteristics as the cause of their strong will, ie due to not noticing the mental influence or whatever. Granted, this usually only shows up in comedic works, which is why I'm relegating this point to a footnote.


I dislike single characteristic skill/proficiency roots anyway (a reason I played Runequest/BRP for years until my current group insisted on playing 5e). In my opinion, Perception should be a combination of Willpower (a measure of patience) and Intelligence (understanding WHAT you're really seeing). That doesn't work well in 5e though.
I get that in theory, but it overcomplicates things in practice (unless you've got a computer recalculating everything whenever one of your numbers changes, of course).
I like how GURPS handles this sort of thing. Perceptiveness, willpower, and intelligence are all loosely associated; Intelligence is a core attribute which affects all three, Perception and Will can be raised or lowered independently of Intelligence, and skills which rely on willpower or perceptiveness are based off of Will or Perception.

Marcus Amakar
2019-05-14, 08:38 AM
I think its a good homebrew which does get around the strange ubiquitous yet forgettable nature of the Constitution stat; simple but covers all bases.

However, the talk around additional merges which could be done reminds me of Grod the Giant's homebrew which removes all ability and replaces their bonuses with proficiency or half proficiency. I can't find the 'brew, but it seems to be the culmination of projects of this type.

Caelestion
2019-05-15, 07:06 PM
It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503455-5e-Without-Ability-Scores-skills-Skills-Skills).

Moxxmix
2019-05-16, 12:59 AM
This is a cool idea, though I'd take it further and fully rebuild the ability stat block.



Body - Strength, constitution, physical resilience, athleticism, health
Coordination - Dexterity, agility, hand-eye coordination, fine manipulation, balance
Mind - Memory, attention, retention of detail, problem solving
Presence - Notability, sociability, attractiveness, leadership, reading people
Spirit - Attunement, purity, magical capability


Where it converts from old to new:

Strength → Body
Constitution → Body
Dexterity → Coordination
Intelligence → Mind/Spirit
Wisdom → Body/Mind/Presence/Spirit
Charisma → Presence/Spirit

Reasons:

1) Constitution is just for saves and hit points. It's a bit of a waste, as far as the skill side of things go. It's also rarely separable from Strength in actual practice.

2) Int/Wis/Cha as magic casting stats creates a bias in their usage and the resulting skills. Generally the only reason people raise the stats is for the magic benefits, not the skills (except maybe Perception).

3) Wisdom has always been rather difficult to reconcile as a stat to correspond with skills. It's very easy to move the Wisdom skills to other stats.

4) Intelligence is almost always a dump stat for anyone other than Wizards. There should be better motivation for having it as a stat.

5) Spirit as a stat allows consolidation for magic power with conceptualization of ideas that are harder to represent with the traditional stats. It very easily leads into a better architecturing of undead, for example.


With the adjustments to the stats, there's a corresponding adjustment to the skills:


Skills
Body
Athletics
Survivial
Coor
Acrobatics
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Mind
History
Investigation
Medicine
Nature
Navigation
Perception
Religion
Pres
Animal Handling
Deception
Insight
Intimidation
Persuasion
Performance
Spirit
Arcana

This is mainly to show how the Wisdom skills got split up (plus moving Arcana to Spirit).

And a quick summary of saving throws:

Body: Handles saves vs strength or resilience checks (grapples, poisons, concentration, etc)
Coor: Handles saves vs movement checks (entanglement, falls, dodging AOEs, etc)
Mind: Handles saves vs mental effects (illusions, magical blindness, reading thoughts, etc)
Pres: Handles saves vs mental influences (charm, dominate, fear, paralysis, etc)
Spirit: Handles saves vs spiritual effects (necrotic attacks, antimagic, spirit drain, Turn Undead, banish, polymorph, etc)


Anyway, this then necessitates a number of other changes, and it's an interesting rabbit hole to follow. The six stat system is traditional, and from a marketing perspective it's easy to see why they'd want to keep it, but a five stat system really feels more solid.