Is there a way to get iteratives on natural attacks (pathfinder)?

[SangoProduction]

Did they bring over any way to get iteratives on natural attacks, or no?

[Air0r]

the only way I can think of is with Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/) and that is assuming you are a monk using flurry of blows.

[CharonsHelper]

No - but there are ways to get a LOT of natural attacks.

[Sayt]

Sort of, animal companions with only one natural attack when they get multi-attack gets an extra attack at -5 instead.

[grarrrg]

Sort of, animal companions with only one natural attack when they get multi-attack gets an extra attack at -5 instead.

Actually it works if they have 1 or 2 Natural attacks, 3 is the cut-off point.

Eidolons have identical Multiattack wording. This is at least sort-of accessible to players in that you can go Synthesist for it. BUT if you're going Synthesist for 9 levels you can likely do a lot better than just +1 Natural Attack.

[stanprollyright]

Wield a weapon (or improved unarmed); get full iteratives with weapon and use natural attacks as secondary attacks

EDIT: source (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Natural_Attacks)

[Ellrin]

Wield a weapon (or improved unarmed); get full iteratives with weapon and use natural attacks as secondary attacks

EDIT: source (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Natural_Attacks)

This may not have been exactly what OP was looking for, but if it's workable, keep in mind that you can't use the same limb for both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike, since those almost universally count as manufactured weapons).

You can totally get all your limb-based natural attacks and your manufactured iteratives with armor spikes, though.

[CharonsHelper]

You can totally get all your limb-based natural attacks and your manufactured iteratives with armor spikes, though.

Or unarmed attacks.

Not good for most monks as they specifically can't use Flurry in the same round that they use natural attacks, but I've built (but never played) a very potent Tengu Master of Many Styles monk who had claw/claw/bite in addition to primary unarmed attacks. MoMS monks give up Flurry anyway, and with the errata they became a pretty solid archetype. (Before the errata they were a broken 1-2 level dip, but they sucked as a full character.)

[Bohandas]

I never understood why natural attacks don't count as unarmed strikes. The distinction between them is entirely arbitrary. (Though I imagine it's likely a kludge necessitated by their absolutely moronic decision to treat hit dice as if they were levels [granting BAB etc].)

[CharonsHelper]

I never understood why natural attacks don't count as unarmed strikes. The distinction between them is entirely arbitrary. (Though I imagine it's likely a kludge necessitated by their absolutely moronic decision to treat hit dice as if they were levels [granting BAB etc].)

So... the only reason is a core building block of the system?

[Bohandas]

So... the only reason is a core building block of the system?

It's core in the sense of being something that's in the core rules but it's not essential to the game. The game could as easily been designed without it; with saves, skill points, attack bonus, etc. instead being assigned based on what one would expect from such a creature as it is described, rather than assigning skill points and so on based on how many times you have to hit the creature before it dies.

In any case, from a narrative perspective there's no reason why a punch should advance more than a claw swipe as one starts to accumulate experience-derived levels

[Footman]

Actually, you can use your Natural Attacks together with your Normal in ireative Attacks, but you need to make those Attacks with another part of your Body.
So if you have a Bite, and you do a Full Attack Action, you can use your Bite together with your Weapon. You make your normal and ireative Attcks together, with the Bite Attack. Now if you have claws for example you will have to choose: Do you wield a Weapon, or do you Attack with your Claws.

Now if you want to abuse this,... First Pick Lizard Folk as a Race, they have 3 Natural Attacks (2 Claws + 1 Bite), and can get a Tail Slap with a Feat at +5 Bab.
You start a out at First Lvl as a Brawler. Brawlers can use any part of their body to make thier unarmed Attacks. That means you can kick with your Feet. which means You now get 4 Natural Attacks + Your Normal and iretave Attacks. This can get even more crazy.

Take the Barbarian as a VMC (Variant multiclass), and get yourself the Beast Totem Rage Powers at higher Lvls. Also Pick up, no Brainers like Eldritch claws, Multiatack, with your Bonus Feats, take the Two Weapon fighting Feats as well.

Now you have 11 Attacks at lvl 16, together with Pounce. Make everything into mince Meat. (4 Natural + 4 Normal/ireative + 3 from two Wepon fighting.)

In the Brawler ability it is stated that his Unarmed strikes count as Natural Weapons and as manufactured Weapons. Since you count them as Natural Weapons all your three Primary Natural Attacks (Bite, Claw, Claw) without Penality and reduced Damage, (other than from TWF), and you get your Tail Slap with a - 5 (- 2 with Multiattack feat), and half Damage as an Attack.

So yes you totally can. Just remember you need to use a different Limb to make the attack.

[Air0r]

Things do get a bit odd when you introduce any weapon that is considered a manufactured weapon: all natural attacks, even if primary, become secondary natural attacks when you bring a manufactured weapon into the mix.

[grarrrg]

In the Brawler ability it is stated that his Unarmed strikes count as Natural Weapons and as manufactured Weapons.

" for the purpose of spells and effects that modify either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
Attacking is not a spell or effect that modifies. Unarmed are still manufactured when attacking.

[Psyren]

I never understood why natural attacks don't count as unarmed strikes. The distinction between them is entirely arbitrary. (Though I imagine it's likely a kludge necessitated by their absolutely moronic decision to treat hit dice as if they were levels [granting BAB etc].)


It's core in the sense of being something that's in the core rules but it's not essential to the game. The game could as easily been designed without it; with saves, skill points, attack bonus, etc. instead being assigned based on what one would expect from such a creature as it is described, rather than assigning skill points and so on based on how many times you have to hit the creature before it dies.

In any case, from a narrative perspective there's no reason why a punch should advance more than a claw swipe as one starts to accumulate experience-derived levels

In-universe/narratively there isn't much explanation for iteratives at all, much less an attempt to explain why they would differ between manufactured and natural. You're just expected to accept that as part of the "gamist" aspect of the game.

The gameplay reason meanwhile is clear. Sure for a monster with just "a claw swipe" as you put it, iteratives on that wouldn't be a big deal - but imagine instead a monster with a bite, gore, two claws, 4 hooves, a tail, and also pounce - every single round it would be rolling nearly 2 dozen dice. And even if you were okay with all that, it would mean that manufactured weapons would be pointless (even more pointless?) if you wanted to optimize melee.

[CharonsHelper]

It's core in the sense of being something that's in the core rules but it's not essential to the a game.

Fixed that for you.

It is essential to THIS game.

They could have made a game where it's not essential. It would have been a game with different core rules & base assumptions.

But that would have been an entirely different game.

[upho]

Did they bring over any way to get iteratives on natural attacks, or no?As other posters have said, not really. And I don't think Paizo will bring over such an option anytime soon. Nor should they without making some pretty significant changes to it IMO, since the general rules for natural attacks in PF differ from those in 3.5. Most notably, you can have more than one primary natural attack in PF. (Which is also a large part of the reason why natural attack PC builds can have the highest damage output potential possible in the game during a majority of levels, in theory and typically also in practice.)


I never understood why natural attacks don't count as unarmed strikes. The distinction between them is entirely arbitrary. (Though I imagine it's likely a kludge necessitated by their absolutely moronic decision to treat hit dice as if they were levels [granting BAB etc].)I had pretty much the same opinion five years back or so, mainly because it was near impossible to make a full bab natural attack PC viable beyond early levels with the Paizo options available at the time. But this had actually already started to change, and I don't think it has been an issue for more than three years now.

From a mechanics design perspective, the distinction is most definitely not arbitrary. As Psyren mentioned, the reason has very little to do with treating HD as levels, but much to do with the very large number of natural weapons a creature can (and should be able to) "wield" simultaneously. So I believe the underlying design principle mostly responsible for creating the need for the distinction is the one having monsters and PCs use largely the same mechanics. Besides, I think there actually is ample room for the distinction also in related fluff, as a human without combat training wouldn't exactly fight like Chuck Norris, while other animals rarely need much training to use their natural weapons effectively.

If anything, I'd say that for most groups the issue with natural attacks is primarily that they can easily make PCs focused on them feel OP in especially early level combat, and secondarily that the variety and number of viable related higher level options are still pretty limited for such PCs. (Though in the games I DM or play, the damage potential has never been a problem, while the latter has been more annoying as it tends to force these PC builds into a "striker" combat role with similar mechanics.)