Tempest Cleric Melee Build Question

[Marcillius]

I've read most of the posts on this forum about tempest clerics and have one questions that I don't feel like I have a full answer to.

I'm interested in the class primarily to build a melee class (fits with the needs of the party (wizard, battlemaster and bard), filling in as an off tank, and with my thematic vision for the character.

Looking at Vuman starting with 16 STR, 16 Wis and 14 Con (and weaker Dex/Int/Cha using point buy). Magic Initiate for Booming Blade, Odin's Raven and ? (Shocking grasp of lightning lure, most likely).

For ASIs, Warcaster (maybe swapping 0 and 4 feats with Magic Initiate). From there, I'd lean towards +2 STR, +2 Wis, +2 Wis. Probably won't reach the last ASI.

My questions are:
1) How viable is replacing STR ASIs with Spell Sniper at 8 to grab Shillelagh?

2) How badly does waiting to 12 to push my Wis for higher DCs cripple my casting? I've played a Land Druid in STK and went straight for 20 Wis and it felt good, but I wasn't really paying attention to how significant a that extra +2 to DCs actually was.

3) I like the feel of a melee build, even if it isn't optimized, but I don't want to feel too much weaker than the rest of the party. Is there a point at which Cleric spells get good enough that I'll end up using most of my actions to cast and feel like I've wasted some of my potential with the melee focus. I was hoping Booming Blade + the domain bonus thunder damage and Spirit Guardians + "you take extra damage if you move or if you attack me" will still feel strong enough.

Thoughts?

[djreynolds]

IMO, very humbly, you have a 16 in strength why bother with shillelagh?

The difference is +3 vs +5. I think you can live with a 16 in strength.

I like magic initiate for booming blade, it fits with the extra thunder damage

1. You can live with a 16 in strength, I think its doable.

2. You have to decide how much casting vs melee you will be doing

3. Spirit guardians works great with war caster and booming blade AoOs, either they stay and take radiant damage or flee and take thunder. And at 8th you just add more thunder with divine strike

As for spell sniper you could always just grab a level of druid instead. Thorn whip has no save attached to it unlike lightning lure.

But flip it, why not leave wisdom at 16, and just max out str to 20. You have two casters already. Just focus on defense and utility and healing and buffs. And forget shillelagh, because you may find a magic weapon.

Grab war caster at 4th, and then max out strength. Now there is no need for shillelagh or spell sniper and you can use any weapon.

[bronzemountain]

I am playing a Tempest Cleric with Booming Blade right now and it is magnificent.

Delaying your Wisdom ASI to get Warcaster is not a problem at all. And, similarly, staying at 16 or 18 STR is also not a problem. Aim for Warcaster quickly and then build from there. As you head towards higher levels, Wisdom will be more important than Strength, so build in that direction.

Booming Blade + Divine Strike (level 8+) is the largest single source of damage, and your crits are ridiculous (since you can maximize your thunder damage, which just doubled). But Spirit Guardians is going to be your go-to concentration spell. It's so insanely awesome for creating a meatgrinding tank area around yourself.

Once you get to 9th level and beyond, Destructive Wave is very much your friend, again because of your Channel Divinity. Generally, I save one use of CD just for that because 5d6 radiant + 30 thunder + prone is absolute happiness.

Shillelagh is a trap for you - don't do it!

And most of all, enjoy!

[Waazraath]

I've read most of the posts on this forum about tempest clerics and have one questions that I don't feel like I have a full answer to.

I'm interested in the class primarily to build a melee class (fits with the needs of the party (wizard, battlemaster and bard), filling in as an off tank, and with my thematic vision for the character.

Looking at Vuman starting with 16 STR, 16 Wis and 14 Con (and weaker Dex/Int/Cha using point buy). Magic Initiate for Booming Blade, Odin's Raven and ? (Shocking grasp of lightning lure, most likely).

For ASIs, Warcaster (maybe swapping 0 and 4 feats with Magic Initiate). From there, I'd lean towards +2 STR, +2 Wis, +2 Wis. Probably won't reach the last ASI.

My questions are:
1) How viable is replacing STR ASIs with Spell Sniper at 8 to grab Shillelagh?

2) How badly does waiting to 12 to push my Wis for higher DCs cripple my casting? I've played a Land Druid in STK and went straight for 20 Wis and it felt good, but I wasn't really paying attention to how significant a that extra +2 to DCs actually was.

3) I like the feel of a melee build, even if it isn't optimized, but I don't want to feel too much weaker than the rest of the party. Is there a point at which Cleric spells get good enough that I'll end up using most of my actions to cast and feel like I've wasted some of my potential with the melee focus. I was hoping Booming Blade + the domain bonus thunder damage and Spirit Guardians + "you take extra damage if you move or if you attack me" will still feel strong enough.

Thoughts?

I'm playing a melee focussed tempest cleric atm. It works great and is a blast. I picked a dex build, for several reasons. In the first place, since cleric doesn't get extra attack, great weapon master isn't too good; the extra damage needs to come from booming blade, and the 2d8 exta damage tempest cleric provides. Also, over all dex is a stronger ability score than strength. Disregarding AC (which str build can compensate, and even top, with heavy armor), dex gives better initiative, and a bonus to a more relevant saving throw. Going dex made it possible to go high elf, with the booming blade cantrip. This saves an ASI for magic initiate. (we also went a full stealth party, that's another reason I went dex).

As for your questions:

1) I don't think that's the optimal choice. At best it seems like a nice to have to compansate for a lower stat, but you're actually delaying the real stat increase. Also, clerics have good ways to spend bonus actions (spiritual weapon!), spending your first turn on shillelag seems like a waste.

2) As you are primary melee, I understand you want to max your attack stat first, but your melee damage with booming blade is, though good, not great. If you really want to pull your weight in damage, you'll need damage as well from spiritual weapon and spirit guardians as well. But a 16 in wis is quite ok. It's a difficult choice between your attack stat, your casting stat, and fitting war caster in between. I don't think the exact order matters too much (you might want to deceide based on how often you loose a spell on concentration).

3) I think this will work out fine. Maybe you want to cast the occasional spell, but that also depends your party: if you are the only full caster, you might be needed for that blade barrier, true seeing or dispel magic because it's more optimal than attacking. But if you use your higher level slots to augment your (melee) damage and staying power, I think you'll do great in melee.

[Khrysaes]

I was also looking into this build, although my next campaign already has a cleric(Light cleric).

I was going to ask the DM if I could replace thunderbolt strike for Resounding Strike from Plane Shift Amonkhet without taking the entire Zeal Domain.

It does the same thing as Thunderbolt strike, it just is based of Thunder damage rather than Lightning.

I do understand that this synergies better with Divine Strike from Tempest, however, that was the entire point.

On an off note, and I know this wont be allowed for me, take the above with Sentinal, PoleArm Mastery, and Tunnel Fighter fighting style(in UA Light, Dark, Underdark).

Lots of knock back. Better range if you are a bugbear too, or have a level of Mystic(giant form discipline) or Enlarge active.

[Citan]

I've read most of the posts on this forum about tempest clerics and have one questions that I don't feel like I have a full answer to.

I'm interested in the class primarily to build a melee class (fits with the needs of the party (wizard, battlemaster and bard), filling in as an off tank, and with my thematic vision for the character.

Looking at Vuman starting with 16 STR, 16 Wis and 14 Con (and weaker Dex/Int/Cha using point buy). Magic Initiate for Booming Blade, Odin's Raven and ? (Shocking grasp of lightning lure, most likely).

For ASIs, Warcaster (maybe swapping 0 and 4 feats with Magic Initiate). From there, I'd lean towards +2 STR, +2 Wis, +2 Wis. Probably won't reach the last ASI.

My questions are:
1) How viable is replacing STR ASIs with Spell Sniper at 8 to grab Shillelagh?

2) How badly does waiting to 12 to push my Wis for higher DCs cripple my casting? I've played a Land Druid in STK and went straight for 20 Wis and it felt good, but I wasn't really paying attention to how significant a that extra +2 to DCs actually was.

3) I like the feel of a melee build, even if it isn't optimized, but I don't want to feel too much weaker than the rest of the party. Is there a point at which Cleric spells get good enough that I'll end up using most of my actions to cast and feel like I've wasted some of my potential with the melee focus. I was hoping Booming Blade + the domain bonus thunder damage and Spirit Guardians + "you take extra damage if you move or if you attack me" will still feel strong enough.

Thoughts?
1. Grabbing Spell Sniper for the sake of getting WIS instead of STR through Shillelagh is not a good enough reason imo. Because...
- Grabbing Shillelagh means you are stuck with quarterstaff, while Spell Sniper combined with Tempest proficiencies would allow you to use Booming Blade with a whip on 10 feet reach.
- While 16 attack stat is a bit short at higher level, 18 is fine.
Now, grabbing Spell Sniper feat may still be a good idea because...
- it does increase the range of all your attacks spells (including Booming Blade, Lightning Lure -or Thorns Whip which I would suggest instead-, even Shocking Grasp, Guiding Bolt or Chromatic Bolt).
- it does provide you another cantrip.
By the way, what is Odin's Ray and where is it coming from?

2. Basically: YMMV. Grabbing Shillelagh is the best way to avoid the "casting or melee" headache, but consider that a Cleric usually have many things to do with his bonus action, although less in the first turn.
I wouldn't personnally like having less than 18 at level 8, but it's a personal biais: if you go STR, mainly use action on weapon cantrip, and use slots for buff/healing or use Spirit Guardians for the "difficult terrain" effect first and foremost, it's perfectly fine to keep 16 WIS until level 12.
If you want to use offensive spells though, I'd say it's a bit too late.

3. I don't think so, but I didn't play high-level pure Clerics yet (logically, because I'm not that interested in their high-level spells and features) so it's only a theorycraft opinion. I'll let experienced people give you something more solid on that point. ;)

[Twizzly513]

1) I wouldn't do it. Shillelagh works for some niche melee, but you'd be for the most part wasting your points you put in Str originally. Also, your Wis will be the same as your Strength for a while after that, so any real benefit you might get you'll have to wait for.

2) Waiting that long shouldn't be a big problem. Every extra point in your modifier only gives you an extra 5% chance to hit. That definitely helps, and it's nothing to sneeze at, but more Wis means more spells prepared, which our cleric has found all too crucial more times than I'd like to remember. If you plan to go melee, put points into melee first, you won't miss out on too much for waiting.

3) The combo is strong, and you'll be fine going melee most of the time. Keep in mind that there is a short state of melee-limbo with clerics between 5th and 8th levels. At 5th, most martial classes get extra attack, but clerics don't. At 8th when you get divine smite for the extra damage, you've caught up, but for those few levels you'll be overshadowed by other melee players. Spellcasting might prove more effective during that time.

Hope I've been helpful, happy smiting!:smalltongue:

[stuffnsuch]

I'm playing a melee focussed tempest cleric atm.

Hey there, I've just made a High elf Tempest Cleric w/ Booming Blade/ Just wondering how you arranged your stats and any stat advice you had? Thanks

[Willie the Duck]

With the exception of your battlemaster, your whole party is Long-rest dominant. In that situation, a cleric is going to get most of their combat effectiveness from their spells. With the exception of Warcaster (and perhaps resilient:con as well), I would not put ASIs into anything except Wisdom unless there was something very specific you were trying to do (spell sniper for a Spirit Guardians/reach-Booming Blade combo, for instance). Using an ASI to pick up Shillelagh to get the +5 with the wisdom you will eventually get seems a waste. Especially when the same ASI could be spent on +2 strength and would work for any magic weapon the party happens to find (instead of clubs and quarterstaves only.

[solidork]

On my War Cleric, I had 16 Str 16 Wis from 4-12 and didn't run into any problems. I took Resilient (Con) at 8, which has been extremely good.

I've got Booming Blade from a custom magic item and it's great even without any class features buffing it up.

[Citan]

In fact OP I think your idea may work really fine as long as you swap order.

As everyone said, getting Shillelagh at level 8 is only marginally improving your efficiency.
Now, getting it at first level, THAT would make a big difference.

Since...
- AFAIK Booming Blade could still be learned with Spell Sniper, and Booming Blade is mostly irrelevant damage-wise until level 5th anyways,
- Lightning Lure can be a good cantrip for a Tempest Cleric but would work of your CHA or INT, meaning probably low stat...
- Technically I don't think Shillelagh can be learned with Spell Sniper anyways (it enhances your attacks, but it does not makes an attack per se)...

I'd rather advise you to...
a) Still pick Magic Initiate at first level, but Druid! Pick Shillelagh AND Thorns Whip, along with Longstrider for a 30% speed increase for that big fight.
b) Ditch the heavy armor idea, so you can instead get decent DEX (14) and even better CON (16). Or DEX 16 if you plan to get MAM later (but I think it's not the best course).
c) Bump WIS by two at level 4 if you feel your to-hit is lacking, otherwise Warcaster.
Then pick Spell Sniper Booming Blade at level 8 and whatever is left at level 12.
The idea is to have BB with Warcaster and 18 WIS by that level.

Of course, this is for single-class character. ;)
Things would be much easier for multiclass. ^^

[Biggstick]

I've played a Life Cleric up to level 13 from level 1 over the past 3 years (our sessions are only 2 hours long once a week), and just recently finished up a year-and-some-change evil campaign with a Nature Cleric who I played from level 1 to level 17. The most commonly taken action I'm making with either of these Clerics is the Dodge action or the Cast a spell action.

The Life Cleric isn't really well suited for melee combat though. He has a +1 Mace, 15 Strength, 20 Wisdom, Warcaster, and Resilient Con. His most recent ASI was spent on taking Resilient Con. The reason I went for this over grabbing Magic Initiate or more Strength is that my value as an off-tank isn't in the fact that I swing a weapon for a bit of damage. It's that I have 24 base AC (+3 Plate armor, Ring of Protection), am taking the Dodge action, and am running a level 3-5 Spirit Guardians. Maintaining that concentration spell (alternative being Bless) is the most important thing I can be doing as a high level Cleric in contributing to the groups chances of survival.

My level 17 Nature Cleric on the other hand, is much more suited for combat. He has an artifact weapon that funtions as both a Defender and a Dwarven Thrower within the same item (for sake of convenience of calculations, it's a +3 1-handed 1d8 weapon). He has a Belt of the Fire Giant (pumps his Strength from 15 up to 25). He also gains the damage bonus from being above Nature Cleric level 14 (variable 2d8 elemental damage to attacks made with a weapon). Even with all that, a total of +16 to my attack rolls, and damage rolls being 3d8 + 10 (for an average of 23.5 damage), my turns are better spent casting control spells, taking the Dodge action, or simply throwing a Sacred Flame at an enemy. Even if I were to have taken a feat for BB, my damage goes up to 6d8 +10 with an additional bonus of 4d8 if the enemy moves (for average damages of 37, or 56 if an enemy moves), my turns are still better spent trying to play defensively. In the world of level 17 and above, you're a high level spellcaster that has to plan a few turns in advance. Doing damage is something you can do, but you're not going to be nearly as effective as the Fighter/Ranger/Paladin at doing damage (GWM/PAM/Sharpshooter are going to massively outdo anything you can do as a Cleric on a primarily martial character). Based simply on these calculations, and having maxed out Constitution, Wisdom, Warcaster, and Resilient Constitution (it was a rolled stats game), I took the Lucky feat at level 16, as preventing enemy critical hits on myself (or changing failed saves into successes) was the most valuable thing I could do for my character.

If you want to build a melee Tempest Cleric to present a viable melee threat, you will definitely be able to do so for levels 1-10 as long as you have Booming Blade and Warcaster by level 5, at least 16 Strength from level 1, and you pick up a magic weapon sometime within that level 1-10 time frame. Once you're level 11 and above though, your turns are going to start being more valuably spent getting in a proper position during combat, casting the appropriate concentration spell (Bless, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians, Call Lightning, Banishment, etc), taking the Dodge action, or attacking the enemy because they're outside your melee range (Sacred Flame). A Tempest Cleric has heavy armor, and probably Warcaster, but they don't really have all that much in regards for their actual defensive stats. They only have a D8 hit die, probably no resistances, and their only good saves are probably going to be Wisdom and/or Constitution (only if you've taken Resilient Con). Even though Clerics have proficiency in Charisma saves, they typically don't have a high Charisma, meaning the proficiency bonus is the only bonus they'll have. This means you're probably failing every Dex save out there. And yeah, they're typically just damage, but you only have a D8 hit dice. You can only afford to take 1 or 2 Fireballs before you're down for the count. A Tempest Cleric, or any Cleric really, doesn't have enough tools in staying healthy to act as a main tank for a group past level 10.

TLDR: Tempest Clerics are great blasters who can serve as pseudo tanks for an okay portion of the game (depending on what you're fighting). However, Clerics are primarily support spellcasters, and in the late game, that's the role they will most easily fit into. Increasing a Tempest Cleric's melee ability will make them better at pretending to be a tank in the early game, but you'll get to a point in the late game where you're no longer using any of your martial capabilities as a Cleric.

[Citan]

Thanks for that detailed feedback of actual first-hand high level experience. ;)
It's not that common to find, and a precious callback from earth to the dreamy land of theorycrafters. :smallbiggrin:

[Biggstick]

Thanks for that detailed feedback of actual first-hand high level experience. ;)
It's not that common to find, and a precious callback from earth to the dreamy land of theorycrafters. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks! Most games tend to fizzle out before you reach high level stuff, and we actually had our campaign end for the Nature Cleric last night. I'll miss playing Lozzak, but things get pretty ridiculous in what you can do in the late game. It starts not really being fun anymore to me. Being able to walk up to a place filled with the Undead, spending 10 minutes to cast Forbiddance, and clearing out a good portion of the creatures just feels lame. Forbiddance doesn't just hit Undead either, so this works with a few other creature types that you're commonly running into (other then Dragons) in the late game.

I've definitely valued these experiences though. Tbh, it makes me value Constitution more highly on my Clerics in regards to concentration checks then having a higher DC for my spell saves. The only thing I valued having a high Wisdom for in the late game was number of spells I could put on my prepared spell list.

But in regards to my first paragraph, the best portion of the game in my mind is levels 5-11. The primary martial characters have a second attack. The primary casters have access to Fireball-equivalent spells. Everyone is starting to make a name for themselves, and no one is so powerful yet to simply be able to walk into a major city and declare themselves king. It's a great portion of the game in which Players get to really explore the world and still be worried about the little things.

[Citan]

But in regards to my first paragraph, the best portion of the game in my mind is levels 5-11. The primary martial characters have a second attack. The primary casters have access to Fireball-equivalent spells. Everyone is starting to make a name for themselves, and no one is so powerful yet to simply be able to walk into a major city and declare themselves king. It's a great portion of the game in which Players get to really explore the world and still be worried about the little things.
I'm right with you here. Although I have little experience in very high level games, I'm not that interested into it in the first place, because of the high level spells: either making encounters too easy, or being so world-changing it would require much work on DM to adapt into an interesting way and a really months or years-long game to really make it stick...

I never had a chance to play such a game like "old" rolists, and I don't think I'll get one anytime soon...

That's why I particularly like half-caster-like gishes: lots of tricks, generally balanced, but none is that far above regular human capabalitities (I mean, for the med-fan setting ;)) to really make you feel "above the whole world".

[The Shadowdove]

I'm playing a nonoptimized Goliath Tempest cleric in Adventure's League. It's a ridiculously fun race and class combo. Even without booming blade I'm dealing competitive damage and utility.

I started 17 10 14 8 15 10. I bumped my str to 18 and Wis to 16 at level 4. I'll probably take warcaster at 8. Who cares that I read super slow with my 8 int, it's fun as heck to rp!

I don't feel handicapped on the least and I can front line tank/dps with the fighter and am mistaken for a paladin as I charge in to battle issuing challenges in the name of Tempus, shrugging off blows with the Goliath racial, rebuking to punish those that hit me, healing, and augmenting myself or allies with buff spells.

Up to level 4 I've just facetanked stuff. Occasionally using shield of faith and spiritual weapon to make it so enemies can't get past me to the Squishies in the backlines.

Talking is a free action, so I throw insults around as much as possible and spit on bugbears/hobgoblins!

[khachaturian]

I played a vuman tempest cleric up to level 11 with s15, c 16, w 16
1. heavy armor master gets str up to 15 to avoid penalties
4. wis +2
8. wis +2
12. would have been warcaster, but campaign wrapped up.

he was essentially a blaster who could also get up into melee. lots of mileage out of
- sacred flame
- spiritual weapon
- spirit guardians
- thunderwave (maximized and upcast for the win)
- shatter
- destructive wave

spirit guardians would be the main concentration spell, but bless still put in work later on in the game. lots of fun!

[Deleted]

For primary stats you want a 16 by level 8 and an 18 by level 16-ish, if you want to "keep up with the math". I didn't do this math some other people did but that essentially what came out of it.

Focus more on fun abilities because a +1 or +2 isn't as powerful as the d20 getting slung around.

Though not sure why you would want Shilelagh, you have the strength and weapons and that would be a waste of a feat.

[Specter]

Frankly, in your case I'd keep Strenght and take Magic Initiate for Booming Blade.

Booming Blade makes sure you're always dealing good damage in melee, comparable to a featless Fighter. Shillelagh lets you use Wisdom, but in terms of damage it's just sad, especially at higher levels, whereas Booming Blade scales at 5th, 11th and 17th level. Also, if you happen to crit with Booming Blade, you can use your Channel Divinity to max all that thunder damage (at 11th level, that's 6d8 maxed for 48dmg, no joke). And on top of all that, you can still stop foes from moving with the secondary effect, making you a semi-tank.

There's just too much synergy to pass up.