More on fixing the Eldritch Knight

[HidesHisEyes]

Edited for clarity.

I'm aware this is a beaten-to-death topic, but so far I've seen a lot of people approach the doorstep of what seems to me the right answer before giving up and turning away.

First of all I think it would be a mistake to try and turn this fighter subclass into a 50-50 split between combat and magic, as that's clearly not what it was meant for. It's supposed to be a fighter who supplements their fighting with a little bit of magic, and that's fine.

The problem, according to broad internet consensus, seems to be pretty specifically that the War Magic feature is a bit too weak for the EK to succeed even on its own terms. War Magic lets you make one weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip; the later improved version lets you do this when you cast any spell. This is kind of weak because the fighter gets so many attacks that, from level 11 onward, it's usually better to just make all your attacks rather than a spell and one attack. The feature as written is still useful in some situations, but if you choose EK because you like the idea of blasting magic with one hand and hacking an slashing with the other, you will be disappointed.

The solution people have suggested is changing it to: "When you take the attack action you can replace one or more attacks with a spell. You must replace a number of attacks equal to the level of the spell." The problem this creates is that cantrips really don't fit in here, since cantrips scale with your level to the point where if you were to replace an attack with a cantrip at higher levels, that cantrip would be worth a good bit more damage than the one attack it's replacing, making this revised version of the feature rather overpowered. At this point everyone seems to either give up altogether or resort to some drastic (and usually over-powered) total rebuild of the class.

Here is my solution:

War Magic:
When you use the attack action on your turn, you can replace one or more of your attacks with a spell. You must replace a number of attacks equal to the level of the spell you cast. You can also cast a cantrip in this way. When doing this, however, you must give up one cantrip damage die for each attack you still make. For example, a level 7 Eldritch Knight who could normally cast Firebolt for 2d10 damage could instead choose to cast Firebolt for 1d10 damage and make one weapon attack. You can only cast one spell or cantrip in this way each turn.

Please correct me if I've overlooked anything. I think this would make the class easier to play effectively and also feel a bit more awesome. Since this version of the feature scales automatically it would make sense to replace the Improved War Magic feature with something cool but not particularly powerful. Suggestions welcome.

Final edit: it occurs to me that the attacks should still absolutely use the bonus action, just you now have the possibility of making more than one attack in this bonus action depending on the level cast, or the number of damage dice given up in the case of a cantrip. This way, you can't combine it very effectively with being a dual-wielder or polearm master; it instead competes with those styles. Spellsword style.

[Tanarii]

The problem, according to broad internet consensus, seems to be pretty specifically that the War Magic feature is a bit too weak for the EK to succeed even on its own terms.References? I've never seen such consensus, but I haven't exactly looked.

But regardless, any such consensus is complete nonsense. EKs are one of the most powerful subclasses, in a powerful base chassis. War Magic is fine. At any level, it does more damage just using PHB cantrips, especially the save ones (Acid Splash and Poison Spray) post level 10 with Eldritch Strike, than using multiple attacks.

The 'problem' with EKs has nothing to do with EKs, and everything to do with two other 5e things that are generally broken. Fix those. Don't worry about the EK, it's fine.

1) TWF requires your bonus action, which means you can't use War Magic with this style. This is a general problem with TWF, not with the EK.

2) GWM, PAM and Sharpshooter are broken. If you play with these feats unmodified, any resulting system break is your own fault.

[Koren]

Don't worry about the EK, it's fine.

I'm so glad someone else said this. I'm still new to Dnd in general, I haven't played anything considered competitive, but the more I play and the more I research, the more these "fix Eldritch Knights" conversations bug me.

the common problem, as my admittedly inexperienced eyes can see, is the way people PLAY Eldritch Knights. They are often compared to pure casters as if a 4th level spell can really compete with a 9th level spell to begin with. And then people argue to dump intelligence?

(disclaimer: That is a viable way to play them, if planned that way I bet it works well. I'm just showing the weird logic holes.)

War Magic is fine. as Tanarii said the same
cantrips do still scale in damage, though in my opinion that isn't really the purpose of the ability. the purpose appears to me to allow you to take advantage of magic while still maintaining presence as a physical fighter. pure damage could be a tactic you use, but you could also Shocking GRASP to help a party member back up (archer, squishy casters, hurt npcs, whoever). use Firebolt to draw aggro, then hit the guy next to you. use Chill Touch to stop healing. Cantrips do things, then you get to hit a guy like the Fighter you are.

[Gastronomie]

The problem, according to broad internet consensus, seems to be pretty specifically that the War Magic feature is a bit too weak for the EK to succeed even on its own terms.As Tanarii already mentioned, I have never heard of this "consensus" before. At least not on these forums.

Neither is the idea that EKs need any fixing.

First of all, with the GFB and BB cantrips being official material, the Eldritch Knight is easily one of the most powerful melee combatants in the game from levels 7 to 10 in terms of not only utility but also raw damage, and it doesn't lag that much behind even after level 11 when normal Fighters get their 3x attack (due to an increase in the damage of GFB and BB).
(Here, War Magic is the key to making the EK a great damage dealer, using only RAW and official material. Empower it any more and it will be broken.)

Second, they have the Shield spell (along with several other defensive spells), making them tougher than normal Fighters.

And finally, utility is something that is difficult to grasp on paper and yet is easily understandable during an actual fight. Many "optimizers" wrongly assume the fights you're gonna fight are always gonna be set in white blank rooms in the middle of nothing, and that everything is always about how much damage you can hurl, but as can be seen by actually playing D&D for one or two sessions, that is not the case at all.

Most Fighters lack utility - they're more or less about smashing in loads of damage, and aren't that good at doing stuff that isn't their main job. EKs are more flexible (you might think "Pure Casters are more flexible", and that's paritially true - but Pure Casters lack the ability to dish out solid damage very turn, whereas the EK does this with no cost. They're different stuff). I've seen several EKs being played before, and they quite were helpful for the party.

[Citan]

Edited for clarity.

I'm aware this is a beaten-to-death topic, but so far I've seen a lot of people approach the doorstep of what seems to me the right answer before giving up and turning away.

First of all I think it would be a mistake to try and turn this fighter subclass into a 50-50 split between combat and magic, as that's clearly not what it was meant for. It's supposed to be a fighter who supplements their fighting with a little bit of magic, and that's fine.

The problem, according to broad internet consensus, seems to be pretty specifically that the War Magic feature is a bit too weak for the EK to succeed even on its own terms. War Magic lets you make one weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip; the later improved version lets you do this when you cast any spell. This is kind of weak because the fighter gets so many attacks that, from level 11 onward, it's usually better to just make all your attacks rather than a spell and one attack. The feature as written is still useful in some situations, but if you choose EK because you like the idea of blasting magic with one hand and hacking an slashing with the other, you will be disappointed.

The solution people have suggested is changing it to: "When you take the attack action you can replace one or more attacks with a spell. You must replace a number of attacks equal to the level of the spell." The problem this creates is that cantrips really don't fit in here, since cantrips scale with your level to the point where if you were to replace an attack with a cantrip at higher levels, that cantrip would be worth a good bit more damage than the one attack it's replacing, making this revised version of the feature rather overpowered. At this point everyone seems to either give up altogether or resort to some drastic (and usually over-powered) total rebuild of the class.

Here is my solution:

War Magic:
When you use the attack action on your turn, you can replace one or more of your attacks with a spell. You must replace a number of attacks equal to the level of the spell you cast. You can also cast a cantrip in this way. When doing this, however, you must give up one cantrip damage die for each attack you still make. For example, a level 7 Eldritch Knight who could normally cast Firebolt for 2d10 damage could instead choose to cast Firebolt for 1d10 damage and make one weapon attack. You can only cast one spell or cantrip in this way each turn.

Please correct me if I've overlooked anything. I think this would make the class easier to play effectively and also feel a bit more awesome. Since this version of the feature scales automatically it would make sense to replace the Improved War Magic feature with something cool but not particularly powerful. Suggestions welcome.

Final edit: it occurs to me that the attacks should still absolutely use the bonus action, just you now have the possibility of making more than one attack in this bonus action depending on the level cast, or the number of damage dice given up in the case of a cantrip. This way, you can't combine it very effectively with being a dual-wielder or polearm master; it instead competes with those styles. Spellsword style.
Hi.

I'm sorry to have to shoot down your plane hard but...
1) Eldricht Knights do not need any fixing, as detailed and illustrated by others.
2) The core idea of your concept is insteresting, but the implementation would make it far too complex to track imo. Also, I think it would break the balance fast although I admittedly did not take the time to do any theorycraft, it's just a hunch on my part.

If anything, just swap the Eldricht Strike ability with the Improved War Magic if what is bothering you is the fact that you cannot cast a non-cantrip spell and still attack in the same turn for most of the time. This swap won't break anything (worst case it's underpowering you) but at least would allow more fluid transition between magic and weapon.

[xanderh]

I've played EK before. It's absolutely not weak, even if you don't use the SCAG cantrips. It's almost impossible to kill because of shield and absorb elements, and they have the Fighter chassis to provide solid damage. If you can get both damage sources from GFB or BB, they will out-damage standard attacks (unless you include GWM and ignore the reduced to-hit. Against the average AC for the level, GWM doesn't really provide a damage boost). The biggest potential problem is the fact that it requires your bonus action, which excludes stuff like shield master, great weapon master, and polearm master. The only potential fix I can see is making it part of the attack action and not requiring a bonus action. This would probably make it overpowered, though.

[djreynolds]

I do feel for you.

Perhaps allowing an EK to have spell access to elemental weapon would be cool.

See if providing some domain spells could help out those multiple attacks.

By the time an EK could cast 3rd level spells like elemental weapon, many will have magic weapons anyhow.

[MeeposFire]

Yea EK is not weak so much as annoying to some because if you feel war magic is meant to be a common tactic then you also feel that your later levels where you get more extra attack feel like a waste. IF you think of war magic as an additional tactic rather than your primary one then you won't have this problem.

If you do want to make using war magic a primary tactic then ways to do it is to multiclass into something like rogue so you can boost your one weapon attack.

Even if you do not war magic with booming blade and the like is competitive with your attack action and if you can ensure the second instance of damage then it stays fairly competitive with the attack action for a very long time (even with the addition of a feat) at most levels.

[Specter]

Repeat after me:

EKs need no fixing whatsoever (x99)

[JBPuffin]

Thread won by the power of consensus. Hooray!

Seriously, I need to get around to playing a mid-level EK. Lightning Lure+main hand attack followed by dual-wielding sashimi next turn...feels good, man. Feels so good. Actually might get to do this with my AT, come to think of it.

[Susano-wo]

honestly, the only thing that bugs me about EK, is that the spell selection is so restricted. I get that they wanted certain flavor, but its be nice if I had more options (aside from the, like, 1 from each spell level, I think, that can be any school.)

War Magic seemed strange that it didn't scale with additional attacks, but remembering that cantrips scale on their own fixes that (as well as what meeposfire just said about not thinking of it as an all the time tactic)

[Koren]

Evocation and Abjuration sound like good matches to the Eldritch Knight flavor but that dies out when you start to look at what is available vs what isn't. I wonder if maybe they should have had their own spell list (nothing exclusive, just things from the wizard list that fit the idea). Add in self buffs and crowd effects with some blast and burn. Anything besides Arcane Lock...

[Maxilian]

I understand the OP problem, but the way to "solve" it, is not to change the sub-class, but get new spells that would make the 1 attack, 1 spell a good idea in most cases -still consumes a spell slot- (Just like EE cantrips made the lvl 7 ability quite good and buffed the Trickster rogue -damage mostly-)

[Susano-wo]

Evocation and Abjuration sound like good matches to the Eldritch Knight flavor but that dies out when you start to look at what is available vs what isn't. I wonder if maybe they should have had their own spell list (nothing exclusive, just things from the wizard list that fit the idea). Add in self buffs and crowd effects with some blast and burn. Anything besides Arcane Lock...

Yeah, I think having their own list taken from the Wizards list(though I think it could be fine to get thematically appropriate spells from other lists too) would have been a nice solution. hell, they can even discard the free pick if that makes them too versatile.

[JBPuffin]

Having the player pick 2 schools when they take the class and sticking to them, lose free pick in the process? Makes the class more versatile, but not the individual.

[mephnick]

A few wizard/cleric levels fixes the few problems with the EK but I know that's not an option for every table.

[Afrodactyl]

I feel like the EK needs two things;

1. It's own spell list. As other users have said, just being able to have a select few from the Wizard tree can be very limiting later on.

2. A change to war magic. Change it to something like "Starting at seventh level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip on your turn, you may make a number of weapon attacks equal to those permitted by the attack action and the extra attack class feature, minus one, to a minimum of one" The idea being that it's the same as it currently is, but scales with the rest of the class.

[xanderh]

I feel like the EK needs two things;

1. It's own spell list. As other users have said, just being able to have a select few from the Wizard tree can be very limiting later on.

2. A change to war magic. Change it to something like "Starting at seventh level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip on your turn, you may make a number of weapon attacks equal to those permitted by the attack action and the extra attack class feature, minus one, to a minimum of one" The idea being that it's the same as it currently is, but scales with the rest of the class.

Better wording might be to increase the number of attacks at level 11 and 20, it is less clunky to read. Not that the EK actually needs it, but it's definitely better wording.

[Kryx]

2. A change to war magic. Change it to something like "Starting at seventh level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip on your turn, you may make a number of weapon attacks equal to those permitted by the attack action and the extra attack class feature, minus one, to a minimum of one" The idea being that it's the same as it currently is, but scales with the rest of the class.
I did exactly this:


War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use the Attack action, you can replace one attack to cast a cantrip.

Does not work with Eldritch Blast, Green-Flame Blade, or Booming Blade.

Improved War Magic
Starting at 15th level, when you use the Attack action, you can replace one attack to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action or 1 bonus action. You cannot use this feature in conjunction with War Magic.

Also picking any 2 schools (or even removing the school restriction) is totally fine imo.

Though now I'm moving both EK and Arcane Archer over to their own Arcane Half caster similar to a Paladin.

[xanderh]

I did exactly this:



Also picking any 2 schools (or even removing the school restriction) is totally fine imo.

Though now I'm moving both EK and Arcane Archer over to their own Arcane Half caster similar to a Paladin.

I'd be very interested in seeing your take on such a class. Do you have a thread or link for it yet?

[Kryx]

I'd be very interested in seeing your take on such a class. Do you have a thread or link for it yet?
I haven't finished it yet.



Arcane Sense
The presence of strong magic registers on your senses. As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces. For 10 minutes or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell), you can sense the presence of magic within 60 feet of you. If you sense magic in this way, you can use your action to see a faint aura around any visible creature or object in the area that bears magic, and you learn its school of magic, if any.

This ability can penetrate most barriers, but it is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence modifier. When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses

Weapon Bond
At 1st level, you learn a ritual that creates a magical bond between yourself and one weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. The weapon must be within your reach throughout the ritual, at the conclusion of which you touch the weapon and forge the bond.

Once you have bonded a weapon to yourself, you can use your bonded weapon as an arcane focus for your spells and you can’t be disarmed of that weapon unless you are incapacitated. If it is on the same plane of existence, you can summon that weapon on your turn, causing it to teleport instantly to your hand.

You can have up to two bonded weapons, but can summon only one at a time. If you attempt to bond with a third weapon, you must break the bond with one of the other two.

If your bonded weapon is broken or damaged, you can spend 1 hour of meditation to recreate the weapon from a fragment. (This process automatically destroys any other fragments of the weapon in existence, so you can’t use it to create multiple copies of a broken weapon.)

Spellcasting
Starting at 2nd level, 5th level like paladin.

Fighting Style
Archery, Defense, Dueling, GWF, and TWF.

Arcane Strike
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with an attack with a bonded weapon, you can expend one magus spell slot of 5th level or lower to cause an effect, in addition to the weapon’s damage. Choose one of the following options:

Banishing Strike. You use abjuration magic to try to temporarily banish your target to another plane. The attack deals an extra 5d10 force damage for a 5th-level spell slot. Additionally, if this attack reduces the target to 50 hit points or fewer, you banish it. If the target is native to a different plane of existence than the on you’re on, the target disappears, returning to its home plane. If the target is native to the plane you’re on, the creature vanishes into a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. It remains there for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell), at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.

Brute Bane. You weave necromantic magic into your attack. The attack deals an extra 2d6 necrotic damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d6 for each Spell Level higher than 1st. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or the damage of the target’s attacks is halved until the start of your next turn.

Bursting Strike. You imbue your attack with a blast of force energy drawn from the school of evocation. If the attack hits a creature, the target and each creature within 10 feet of it also take 2d6 force damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d6 for each Spell Level higher than 1st.

Grasping Strike. When this attack strikes its target, conjuration magic creates grasping, thorny brambles, which wrap around the target. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the magical vines for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). A Large ar larger creature has advantage on this saving throw. If the target succeeds on the save, the vines shrivel away.

While restrained by this spell, the target takes ld6 piercing damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d6 for each Spell Level higher than 1st, at the start of each of its turns. The target or any creature that can reach it can use its action to try to remove the brambles with a successful Strength (Brawn) check against your spell save DC.

Mind-Scrambling Strike. Your enchantment magic causes this attack to temporarily beguile its target. Choose one of your allies within 30 feet of the target. The attack deals an extra 2d6 psychic damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d6 for each Spell Level higher than 1st, and the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or it can’t attack the chosen ally or include that ally in a harmful area of effect for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). This effect ends early if the chosen ally deals any damage to the target.

Piercing Strike. You use transmutation magic to give a ranged attack an ethereal quality. When you use this option, you don’t make an attack roll for the attack. Instead, the weapon or projectile fires forward in a line that is 1 foot wide and 30 feet long, before disappearing. The weapon or projectile passes harmlessly through objects, ignoring cover. Each creature in that line must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 2d6 piercing damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d6 for each Spell Level higher than 1st. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage.

Seeking Strike. Using divination magic, you grant a ranged attack the ability to seek out your target, allowing the weapon or projectile to curve and twist its path in search of its prey. When you use this option, you don’t make an attack roll for the attack. Instead, choose one creature you have seen in the past minute. The weapon or projectile flies toward that creature, moving around corners if necessary and ignoring three-quarters cover and half cover. If the target is within the weapon’s range and there is a path large enough for the weapon or projectile to travel to the target, the target must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, it takes damage as if it were hit by the weapon or projectile, plus 1d6 force damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d6 for each Spell Level higher than 1st, and you learn the target’s current location. On a successful save, the target takes half as much damage, and you don’t learn its location.

Shadow Strike. You weave illusion magic into your attack, causing it to occlude your foe’s vision with shadows. The attack deals an extra 3d8 necrotic damage for a 3rd-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each Spell Level higher than 3rd. Additionally, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be blinded for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).



I have all the core class features (except cantrips woven in to attacks), but have to work out the subclass features. At some level I want to bring in cantrips on attacks (or effects similar to cantrips). When that happens and the power of such a feature was the sticking point that caused me to stop working on it for a bit because it's hard to get it right without being overpowered or underpowered.

[Lombra]

To get along with your concept, I would rewrite what you wrote about war magic and improved war magic as "once per turn, you can replace one of your attacks with the casting of a -cantrip if it's war magic- -spell if it is improved war magic-" this makes the abilities way more powerful (like, waaaay more powerful) but allow the cast'n swing theme, and the use of bonus actions for dual wield or other things. It is broken but it is what you are looking for... alternatively: "...as an action, you may make a melee attack and cast a -cantrip/spell-" this limits the power, has a sword'n swing feel, and doesn't use the bonus action.

[Afrodactyl]

I did exactly this:



Also picking any 2 schools (or even removing the school restriction) is totally fine imo.

Though now I'm moving both EK and Arcane Archer over to their own Arcane Half caster similar to a Paladin.

Yeah, that was quite clunky to read. I'd not long been awake when I wrote that.

Maybe allow it to work with GFB/BB/EB if you removed the scaling from the cantrips, and forced to cast it as though you were level 1? Fluff it as sacrificing raw power for speed in order to follow up with melee attacks or something.


:EDIT: I still maintain that EK/ATs need their own spell list. Generally used for buffing with some utility. In that vein, I also think that EK and AT should be split from rogue and fighter and become a class of their own, like Spells word or something, with EK and AT being sub classes of that, and EK and AT then getting variant spells for their respective subclass.

[Kryx]

Maybe allow it to work with GFB/BB/EB if you removed the scaling from the cantrips, and forced to cast it as though you were level 1? Fluff it as sacrificing raw power for speed in order to follow up with melee attacks or something.
GFB/BB come from the swordmage class in 4e - the mechanics are almost identical. I am of the opinion that they belong as class features and not cantrips as they are not in line with the power level of other cantrips, at all (see Spell Balance (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216)).



I still maintain that EK/ATs need their own spell list. Generally used for buffing with some utility. In that vein, I also think that EK and AT should be split from rogue and fighter and become a class of their own, like Spells word or something, with EK and AT being sub classes of that, and EK and AT then getting variant spells for their respective subclass.
EK could surely use its own spell list. Probably AT as well. Arcane Trickster, however, is the best subclass for a rogue. It's not disfunctional like the EK is for the fighter. Sure, you could make a class that has less sneak attack progression and more spellcasting, but it would be really similar to the AT as it exists.
EK however is totally disfunctional without a rewording of War Magic like I did or a separate class which I am currently pursuing. Lumping EK, Swordmage, and Arcane Archer into one class makes a lot of sense. Arcane Trickster isn't similar to those concepts imo. Bladesinger belongs as a bard archetype - the whole flavor is about singing.

[HidesHisEyes]

References? I've never seen such consensus, but I haven't exactly looked.

But regardless, any such consensus is complete nonsense. EKs are one of the most powerful subclasses, in a powerful base chassis. War Magic is fine. At any level, it does more damage just using PHB cantrips, especially the save ones (Acid Splash and Poison Spray) post level 10 with Eldritch Strike, than using multiple attacks.

The 'problem' with EKs has nothing to do with EKs, and everything to do with two other 5e things that are generally broken. Fix those. Don't worry about the EK, it's fine.

1) TWF requires your bonus action, which means you can't use War Magic with this style. This is a general problem with TWF, not with the EK.

2) GWM, PAM and Sharpshooter are broken. If you play with these feats unmodified, any resulting system break is your own fault.

1) I've recebtly decided that I don't have a problem with TWF using the bonus action. It feels wrong that a high level dual-wielding fighter using action surge can attack EIGHT times with one hand but can only manage one with the other - that's a failure of the rules generally - but in the context of the system's foundation using the bonus action for TWF makes sense to me. I'll explain about that below the next quote.

2) How do you find those feats to be broken? I haven't seen any evidence of it, but then I'm only just now starting to play 5E beyond level 10.


I've played EK before. It's absolutely not weak, even if you don't use the SCAG cantrips. It's almost impossible to kill because of shield and absorb elements, and they have the Fighter chassis to provide solid damage. If you can get both damage sources from GFB or BB, they will out-damage standard attacks (unless you include GWM and ignore the reduced to-hit. Against the average AC for the level, GWM doesn't really provide a damage boost). The biggest potential problem is the fact that it requires your bonus action, which excludes stuff like shield master, great weapon master, and polearm master. The only potential fix I can see is making it part of the attack action and not requiring a bonus action. This would probably make it overpowered, though.

I don't think it using up the bonus action is a problem. Looking at the different combat styles and the feats that go with them, it seems to me that each one gives you a way to use your bonus action to cause more damage. Dual-wielding: make another attack. Two-handed: make another attack if you crit or take someone down. Polearms: make a haft attack. The -5/+10 option of GWF complicates this especially as it can be used in conjunction with polearm mastery, but I still feel the idea of specialising in a style is it lets you put your BA to good use dealing extra damage one way or another.

In this case the point of the Eldritch Knight is not to be half fighter, half wizard, but to be a fighter whose combat style relies on throwing some magic into the mix. This is why I wanted to alter the class, because I felt that that style - one spell, two attacks - SHOULD be the go-to tactic, to realise that fighting style. I don't think it's bad to say the magic is instead of dual-wielding or polearm haft-smacking.

However, the idea that the style is more like "fighter with magical tricks up his sleeve for utility and defence" is still pretty cool. I'm actually very encourage by this thread, and am looking forward to playing my EK as written and finding the situational but useful applications of war Magic. I'm equipped with Shocking Grasp and Lightning Lure for that very reason.

Thanks everyone. I guess consenus is a tricky thing. I agree about the spell list being a little too restrictive though. A specific list would be good.



A few wizard/cleric levels fixes the few problems with the EK but I know that's not an option for every table.

It's rare in my experience that multiclassing simply isn't allowed (I wish it was more common to be honest). I think there's a genuine problem with a class if you need to multiclass to make it do what it's supposed to do on its own though.

[poolio]

I started a "fix the Eldritch knight" thread a while ago, when i was getting ready to try one out for the first time (I'll skip over what i didn't like for now), but after playing him for a while, i can honestly say most of the things i didn't like turned out to not be an issue at all and it became one of my favorite classes, i quickly figured out what role it's meant for and it has exactly enough to get it done,

Sure there's a thing or two i would like to change, but we all have little tweaks we'd like to make to our favorite classes.

[djreynolds]

How about something else?

We are trying to improve upon war magic, while it's actually quite good. It's not a quickened spell but it is similar. Similar as heightened is to eldritch strike. And it costs nothing.

What is needed is away to give something that perhaps isn't a smite or just extra damage like hunters mark or hex or elemental weapon. But to take advantage of these extra attacks.

See a battlemaster has something they can do with each sword strike. Though not spells they roughly work out to the same in terms of resources.

Bladesingers 10th ability is also something that could've been cool.

_______________---------------_______------------_____

Arcane strike, 11th level

When using the attack action only, an eldritch knight may use a spell slot of an appropriate level to dispel an effect on an opponent, on a successful hit. The attack acts like the dispel magic spell but for only one effect. For instance if eldritch knight hit an invisible opponent they could expend a 2nd level spell slot to dispel the invisibility since it is a 2nd level spell.

Also, an eldritch knight when taking the attack action, can temporarily disable an enemy's resistance to 1 resistance per level of spell slot used, on a successful hit for the rest of this turn and the next turn. For instance an eldritch knight with a successful hit could use a 2nd level spell slot to temporarily take away a creatures resistance to both fire and poison for this turn and the next.

[Citan]

However, the idea that the style is more like "fighter with magical tricks up his sleeve for utility and defence" is still pretty cool. I'm actually very encourage by this thread, and am looking forward to playing my EK as written and finding the situational but useful applications of war Magic. I'm equipped with Shocking Grasp and Lightning Lure for that very reason.

Thanks everyone. I guess consenus is a tricky thing. I agree about the spell list being a little too restrictive though. A specific list would be good.


It's rare in my experience that multiclassing simply isn't allowed (I wish it was more common to be honest). I think there's a genuine problem with a class if you need to multiclass to make it do what it's supposed to do on its own though.
Well, it's true that the spell list is a bit restrictive, and that's indeed why many people prefer going the Wizard dip way. So you may just ask to your DM for a broadening of the list of spells available to learn.
Beyond that, I really think it's fine.

[Kryx]

We are trying to improve upon war magic, while it's actually quite good.
It's not good, that's the issue. It's incompatible with the scaling of extra attack and even at level 7 it's a worse choice than just using GWM and attacking twice. (Math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1629776436) starting on line 129 compared to line 152 and 176).

At 7:
GWM 2 attacks: 27 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 21 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 32 DPR (assuming there are 2 creatures w/in 5 feet of you)

At 11:
GWM 2 attacks: 42 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 24 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 38 DPR

At 20:
GWM 2 attacks: 52 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 27 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 39 DPR

EK wasn't designed with SCAG in mind and SCAG cantrips are quite out of line with normal cantrip power (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216). But even when using SCAG cantrips War Magic is a terrible feature that does not take the core class into account (extra attacks) and does less damage than just attacking twice.

[Kobard]

If you have an issue with the limited spell selection for the EK, then I have found that most GMs tend to be reasonable about permitting flexibility within reason, particularly if you have a solid idea, theme, or concept for your character.

[xanderh]

It's not good, that's the issue. It's incompatible with the scaling of extra attack and even at level 7 it's a worse choice than just using GWM and attacking twice. (Math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1629776436) starting on line 129 compared to line 152 and 176).

At 7:
GWM 2 attacks: 27 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 21 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 32 DPR (assuming there are 2 creatures w/in 5 feet of you)

At 11:
GWM 2 attacks: 42 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 24 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 38 DPR

At 20:
GWM 2 attacks: 52 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 27 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 39 DPR

EK wasn't designed with SCAG in mind and SCAG cantrips are quite out of line with normal cantrip power (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216). But even when using SCAG cantrips War Magic is a terrible feature that does not take the core class into account (extra attacks) and does less damage than just attacking twice.

Does that include the reduced chance to hit? Because that is quite relevant. Against the expected AC, GWM usually ends up being about on par with normal attacks, at least from what I've calculated.
I tried comparing BB and GFB to standard attacks a while ago, and it's almost universally better. I haven't tried comparing the standard cantrips, but I'm pretty confident in your conclusion there.

[Citan]

It's not good, that's the issue. It's incompatible with the scaling of extra attack and even at level 7 it's a worse choice than just using GWM and attacking twice. (Math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1629776436) starting on line 129 compared to line 152 and 176).

At 7:
GWM 2 attacks: 27 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 21 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 32 DPR (assuming there are 2 creatures w/in 5 feet of you)

At 11:
GWM 2 attacks: 42 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 24 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 38 DPR

At 20:
GWM 2 attacks: 52 DPR
GWM War magic fire bolt: 27 DPR
GWM War magic GFB: 39 DPR

EK wasn't designed with SCAG in mind and SCAG cantrips are quite out of line with normal cantrip power (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216). But even when using SCAG cantrips War Magic is a terrible feature that does not take the core class into account (extra attacks) and does less damage than just attacking twice.
You should really stop comparing features on biaised foundations such as feats enabled. Nobody puts a gun to the head of a Fighter to force him to play with two-handed weapons nor take GWM feat on top of that.

War Magic as is is perfectly fine for people not playing Sharpshooter/GWM. Even for them, without weapon cantrips, it opens some niche uses like True Strike before a finishing weapon attack or diminishing enemy threat when you rationalize that there is little chance to finish him off with plain attacks (Shocking Grasp + attack).
Otherwise, it still gives you an option to grapple/shove before using a soft control cantrip or "vulnerable-damage" cantrip, or even just bypass physical damage resistance (Magic Weapon would be a costly investment for an Eldricht Knight, and in some campaigns you may not have yet magic weapons) or provide decent ranged damage for a pure STR melee Fighter (ranged attack cantrip + bonus action throw a javelin which you drew as part of the bonus action). And with weapon cantrips available it makes for an extremely good turn, still trading pure damage for useful rider but to a lesser extent than the other cantrips (better efficiency since attack stat + weapon damage).

As always, you make unworthy conclusions because you always expect melee warrior to be able to unleash melee attacks for maximum damage, as well as this tactic being the best in all situations, which is false on both accounts.
Unless the character is a dumb Eldricht Knight that dumped his INT hard, in which case even Eldricht Strike wouldn't be enough to compensate... But then it's the player choice to cripple himself on casting side to instead power up the martial aspect, so he has no right to complain.

Also, making a comparison at level 20 is stupid: no decent character would be without magical weapons, and Eldricht Knight has Eldricht Strike as well as Improved War Magic to play with, so obviously he won't use War Magic anymore as often as before because everything encourages him to either unleash a powerful spell or rack up on attack number, and he should have better overall defense/mobility as well thanks to equipment and buffs. That does not change the fact that, to take your example, if there is no enemy worth Extra Attack reachable in melee, Firebolt may be better than just Javelins because of reach, or Ray of Frost because it helps your friends avoid a threat etc.

The fact that a feature loses potency at the highest levels does not void the relevance it had up to that moment. War Magic brings tactical flexibility for when "pure damage" is not the best course of action. That's its big benefit.

[Kryx]

Does that include the reduced chance to hit? Because that is quite relevant.
Yup, the math takes that into account. It's available on the spreadsheet linked.


You should really stop comparing features on biaised foundations such as feats enabled.
Feats exist in nearly every game talked about on this forum so they are what I assume. But since you asked I have added greatsword without GWM:

Without GWM
At 7:
Greatsword 2 attacks: 24 DPR
Greatsword War magic fire bolt: 19 DPR

At 11:
Greatsword 2 attacks: 34 DPR
Greatsword War magic fire bolt: 21 DPR

At 20:
Greatsword 2 attacks: 46 DPR
Greatsword War magic fire bolt: 25 DPR

So without feats War Magic is still a terrible option and is not compatible with the core Fighter class which provides better damage.


As always, you make unworthy conclusions because you always expect melee warrior to be able to unleash melee attacks for maximum damage
It seems you have made no effort to understand the spreadsheet at all. There is no maximum damage assumption - it assumes average damage which is how DPR works.


this tactic being the best in all situations, which is false on both accounts.
The sheet assumes always using GWM (even when a PC would be able to discern that they shouldn't do to AC) and it still comes far ahead of not using it.


The fact that a feature loses potency at the highest levels
It doesn't just lose potency at higher levels. It's terrible at the level when you first get it.

[Saiga]

Could you elaborate on how War Magic (GFB) is worse at level 7 Kryx? Since it's Cantrip Attack + Bonus Attack compared to two Attacks, it should be a straight damage upgrade even without two enemies nearby.

Level 5 GFB is everything a weapon attack has +1d8 fire damage, before the additional damage condition. Just like Booming Blade.

[mephnick]

Could you elaborate on how War Magic (GFB) is worse at level 7 Kryx? Since it's Cantrip Attack + Bonus Attack compared to two Attacks, it should be a straight damage upgrade even without two enemies nearby.

Level 5 GFB is everything a weapon attack has +1d8 fire damage, before the additional damage condition. Just like Booming Blade.

I'm no forum math whiz, but here's some napkin math. The fact that the 1d8 fire damage replaces the 2d6+mod damage of the Greatsword's 2nd attack makes it much weaker immediately on the first enemy. The 1d8 + Int mod on the second enemy still doesn't quite add up to 2 greatsword attacks while being infinitely less flexible. This is assuming your STR mod is higher than your INT mod of course.

So 4d6+8 = 22dmg vs (2d6+4) + 1d8 + 1d8+2 = 21dmg. Adjust for hit chance blah blah. You still get a slightly weaker attack with the added detriment of not being available 90% of the time.

[Kryx]

Could you elaborate on how War Magic (GFB) is worse at level 7 Kryx? Since it's Cantrip Attack + Bonus Attack compared to two Attacks, it should be a straight damage upgrade even without two enemies nearby.

Level 5 GFB is everything a weapon attack has +1d8 fire damage, before the additional damage condition. Just like Booming Blade.
At level 7 GFB and Booming Blade beat out the normal case without GWM. My statement above was with GWM. At level 11+ they are no longer better than the normal attack without GWM.

Those cantrips didn't exist at the time of EK's release and were later added (possibly as fixes to EK). Personally I believe those cantrips shouldn't exist and my math numbers (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216) show how far out of the expected power level of a cantrip they are. When a cantrip is head and shoulders above other cantrips then that limits character options and changes the balance of every class (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard, Arcane Trickster, and I'm sure others who can get access to them). Giving Arcane Trickster access to GWB for example is incredibly strong. imo those cantrips should've been class features.

Other cantrips fail even at level 7. Super simple case:

Level 7:
Normal: Greatsword (20 str) does 8.33 damage with GWF. 8.33 * 1.05 = 8.7465 + 5 (str) = 13.7465 damage from each greatsword attack. 27.493 damage assuming everything hits and 54.986 damage when action surging. The greatsword has a +8 to hit, about a 71.43% chance. So .7143 * 27.493 = 19.6 DPR
Firebolt: Greatsword (20 str) does 8.33 damage with GWF. 8.33 * 1.05 = 8.7465 + 5 (str) = 13.7465 damage from the greatsword attack. Firebolt does 2d10 damage, or 5.5 + 5.5 = 11. But it has +6 to hit and the enemy could possibly have cover, about a 61.43% chance. I'll ignore cover (which we shouldn't do when calculating accurate damage). Greatsword: 13.7465 * .7143 = 9.81912495. Fire bolt: 11 * .6143 = 6.7573. 9.81912495 + 6.7573 = 16.58 DPR

[xanderh]

Kryx, another question. Are you assuming that GWM gets their bonus action attack as well, or not? Because that would explain why GWM is doing more damage.

[Blue Lantern]

Those cantrips didn't exist at the time of EK's release and were later added (possibly as fixes to EK). Personally I believe those cantrips shouldn't exist and my math numbers (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216) show how far out of the expected power level of a cantrip they are. When a cantrip is head and shoulders above other cantrips then that limits character options and changes the balance of every class (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard, Arcane Trickster, and I'm sure others who can get access to them). Giving Arcane Trickster access to GWB for example is incredibly strong. imo those cantrips should've been class features.

While I agree that as they are those cantrips are extremely overloaded I don't agree on the fact that they should not exists at all, A few simple cantrips that simply add elemental damage to a single weapon strike without those extra riders are nice options to have, as long as they don't overshadow all the rest.

[Vaz]

Why would you use True Strike and Attack Once, when you can Attack Twice?

Niche? Wildin.

[Saiga]

I'm no forum math whiz, but here's some napkin math. The fact that the 1d8 fire damage replaces the 2d6+mod damage of the Greatsword's 2nd attack makes it much weaker immediately on the first enemy. The 1d8 + Int mod on the second enemy still doesn't quite add up to 2 greatsword attacks while being infinitely less flexible. This is assuming your STR mod is higher than your INT mod of course.

So 4d6+8 = 22dmg vs (2d6+4) + 1d8 + 1d8+2 = 21dmg. Adjust for hit chance blah blah. You still get a slightly weaker attack with the added detriment of not being available 90% of the time.

It doesn't replace it, though, because at Level 7 you get two attacks when using War Magic: GFB is one attack (with an extra 1d8 fire damage) and War Magic is the second attack. If you just take the attack action, it's two attacks.

[dejarnjc]

EK without the SCAG cantrips is a little bit weak.

EK with the SCAG seems just fine and their DPR is great particularly if you want to play as a sticky tank. The ability to action surge two targets with booming blades, get a bonus action attack AND (if you have warcaster) reaction attack booming blade a target that moves away from you makes you the ultimate front-liner outside of some grappler build.

Additionally, war magic allows a melee focused EK to continue to be quite effective at ranged battles (fire bolt + thrown weapon).

[Citan]

It seems you have made no effort to understand the spreadsheet at all. There is no maximum damage assumption - it assumes average damage which is how DPR works.


The sheet assumes always using GWM (even when a PC would be able to discern that they shouldn't do to AC) and it still comes far ahead of not using it.


It doesn't just lose potency at higher levels. It's terrible at the level when you first get it.
It seems you have made no effort to understand why it's stupid to tell that War Magic is terrible in the first place.

OF COURSE War Magic would end worse damage-wise than GWM in most cases. It's the only reason one would take GWM in the first place, aim for maximum damage.

The problem is, aiming for maximum weapon damage damage is not always the best course of action. Sometimes, it's even an extremely stupid decision to do so because you would endanger yourself for nothing while just a ranged cantrip would be enough. Sometimes, it's better to impose a soft control on an enemy you can't kill to help your friends instead.
That's the thing of War Magic: it provides tactical options which end much better than just recklessly and dumbly hitting things in many situations.

So, War Magic is not terrible, it's GOOD. Like many other features, you just have to know how to use it, which is apparently not your case...

[Kryx]

Kryx, another question. Are you assuming that GWM gets their bonus action attack as well, or not? Because that would explain why GWM is doing more damage.
The spreadsheet is linked and can answer your questions. GWM is not assumed always, only when crits occur or a kill occurs.


While I agree that as they are those cantrips are extremely overloaded I don't agree on the fact that they should not exists at all, A few simple cantrips that simply add elemental damage to a single weapon strike without those extra riders are nice options to have, as long as they don't overshadow all the rest.
The concepts aren't bad, the implementation is incredibly OP. I agree that the ideas arent bad.

[Vaz]

Ye Kryx. You have to use WarmAgic properly, like using True Strike.

[Kryx]

Ye Kryx. You have to use WarmAgic properly, like using True Strike.
:D Thanks for the laugh!

[djreynolds]

I think if an eldritch knight could use spell slots like a paladin does, but not for damage, but to dispel stuff or open up an enemy's defense could be cool.

It costs a spell slot to dispel an effect, or pierce a resistance.

This way you are still getting use of multiple attacks.

[Specter]

War Magic is a terrific feature, and those who say it's bad have never played/seen a decent EK.

First of all, we should remember that the level 7 Fighter feature aren't meant to be overkill; they just allow fighters to do something they couldn't do before. Talking about War Magic like it's supposed to be Improved Critical is missing the design point completely.

Second, what it allows you to do is strategize according to your enemies, which is something you can't measure on any spreadsheet ever. If I'm fighting an enemy with multiple attacks (e.g. Marilith), I will happily attack once, run away, give it an opportunity attack and then Ray of Frost it so it can't reach me in the next turn. Seven attacks became one. Or if I want to help a friend who's being beaten, I can attack once and Frostbite someone else to try to impose disadvantage. Or if I kill the enemy next to me but can't reach another, Fire Bolt. Etcetcetc.

With BB and GFB, you can tank and deal with hordes ten times better, respectively. Who cares if they were or weren't released with EK in mind? They're now an official part of the game.

If you add GWM on all attacks to the mix, then War Magic will lag behind, sure. But that's hardly its fault, since GWM is a staple damage feat.

[HidesHisEyes]

War Magic is a terrific feature, and those who say it's bad have never played/seen a decent EK.

First of all, we should remember that the level 7 Fighter feature aren't meant to be overkill; they just allow fighters to do something they couldn't do before. Talking about War Magic like it's supposed to be Improved Critical is missing the design point completely.

Second, what it allows you to do is strategize according to your enemies, which is something you can't measure on any spreadsheet ever. If I'm fighting an enemy with multiple attacks (e.g. Marilith), I will happily attack once, run away, give it an opportunity attack and then Ray of Frost it so it can't reach me in the next turn. Seven attacks became one. Or if I want to help a friend who's being beaten, I can attack once and Frostbite someone else to try to impose disadvantage. Or if I kill the enemy next to me but can't reach another, Fire Bolt. Etcetcetc.

With BB and GFB, you can tank and deal with hordes ten times better, respectively. Who cares if they were or weren't released with EK in mind? They're now an official part of the game.

If you add GWM on all attacks to the mix, then War Magic will lag behind, sure. But that's hardly its fault, since GWM is a staple damage feat.

I'm convinced. I just noticed the Bellator Arcana link in your signature. Thanks for making that, it was my go-to for creating my EK!

[Kryx]

First of all, we should remember that the level 7 Fighter feature aren't meant to be overkill; they just allow fighters to do something they couldn't do before. Talking about War Magic like it's supposed to be Improved Critical is missing the design point completely.
I didn't realize that archetype features are meant to be downgrades of core class options, much less not comparable to other subclass options of an equivalent level.. I guess I'll inform my players to just pick up true strike war magic. That's the trick!

*sigh* I need to stop opening this thread.

[Specter]

I'm convinced. I just noticed the Bellator Arcana link in your signature. Thanks for making that, it was my go-to for creating my EK!

Hey, no prob.


I didn't realize that archetype features are meant to be downgrades of core class options, much less not comparable to other subclass options of an equivalent level.. I guess I'll inform my players to just pick up true strike war magic. That's the trick!

*sigh* I need to stop opening this thread.

- Good/bad levels of each class are each class's problem
- In some cases, War Magic is better than regular attacks, that is a simple fact
- True Strike is garbage, and WM has nothing to do with a bad cantrip

Do you want to actually discuss anything or just remain ironically misguided?

[dejarnjc]

I didn't realize that archetype features are meant to be downgrades of core class options, much less not comparable to other subclass options of an equivalent level.. I guess I'll inform my players to just pick up true strike war magic. That's the trick!

*sigh* I need to stop opening this thread.

But isn't it basically mathematically equivalent to using extra attack (better between 7 and 11) before you include rider effects like ray of frost's slow or BB/GFB's rider damage damage?

I just struggle to see what the issue is with war magic.

[SharkForce]

i find eldritch knight to be generally fine. the lack of certain spells being inherently available irritates me greatly (expeditious retreat (which need not be used to actually retreat), jump, longstrider, blur, haste, enlarge/reduce, fly, and magic weapon, for example), but that's about it.

i don't even think there's a problem with their cantrip + attack or especially their spell + attack options. i don't view them as being intended to allow you to do more damage. they're intended to allow you to do something magical without forfeiting the fighter side of things; you get to cast mold earth to generate cover for yourself, and then fire your bow. or put out an enemy's torch knowing that your own party all have darkvision (via race of spell buff) and still make an attack. or, later on, so that you can cast a buff spell and make an attack in the same turn. it isn't supposed to make you a damage-dealing beast... it's supposed to let you do magic sstuff (in the event that magic stuff is called for) without giving up your entire turn to doing magic. and if magic stuff isn't needed, then you don't use it that turn, you just make your regular attacks.

if their damage isn't increased by it, that's fine. the weird thing is that there's a period where their damage *is* boosted briefly, and i don't see any reason that should be expected to continue. if you want to boost your damage with magic, then buff yourself. enlarge yourself for +1d4 damage per hit, or haste yourself so you get an extra attack out each round, etc.

[MeeposFire]

But isn't it basically mathematically equivalent to using extra attack (better between 7 and 11) before you include rider effects like ray of frost's slow or BB/GFB's rider damage damage?

I just struggle to see what the issue is with war magic.

For the non-scag cantrips the only way to see it being worth it is for the rider so that is where you should argue. In that case you have to decide whether any of the riders are worth the loss in damage.

As for the SCAG cantrips it can be competitive if you can make sure you can get the secondary damage to an extent though once again it is forcing the extra damage which cannot always be done. Still you can potentially more damage from using the attack action especially with GWF (not sure with sword and board though so if you want to use a shield perhaps it is more competitive I did not do napkin on that).


Essentially if you believe the riders are good enough war magic is a tactical option and with SCAG cantrips it can be close enough to be a decent alternative to normal attacks in many games (perhaps not high OP ones of course). You can also improve the value of war magic by improving the value of the weapon attack such as by using rogue levels for sneak attack. Of course that requires multiclassing.

[dejarnjc]

As for the SCAG cantrips it can be competitive if you can make sure you can get the secondary damage to an extent though once again it is forcing the extra damage which cannot always be done.

Well that was my question, I'm pretty sure that before the secondary damage is added, War magic is basically equivalent or better to extra attack at all levels except maybe level 20. Once you add the secondary damage I thought it was an upgrade.

At level 11 with 20 STR for example, three long sword attacks is 28.5 average damage and three great sword attacks is 36 damage on average.
Booming blade before the secondary damage plus the bonus action attack would be 28 average damage with a longsword or 33 with a great sword. The secondary damage would add 13.5 damage to both if it's triggered (easy to do with spell sniper+polearm or the mobile feat).


As I said before, weak class w/out the SCAG cantrips. Perfectly fine with.

[MeeposFire]

Well that was my question, I'm pretty sure that before the secondary damage is added, War magic is basically equivalent or better to extra attack at all levels except maybe level 20. Once you add the secondary damage I thought it was an upgrade.

At level 11 with 20 STR for example, three long sword attacks is 28.5 average damage and three great sword attacks is 36 damage on average.
Booming blade before the secondary damage plus the bonus action attack would be 28 average damage with a longsword or 33 with a great sword. The secondary damage would add 13.5 damage to both if it's triggered (easy to do with spell sniper+polearm or the mobile feat).


As I said before, weak class w/out the SCAG cantrips. Perfectly fine with.

Well if you are adding feats that is when it falls behind. I believe when I did my napkin math depending on level if you can make sure you can get that extra damage then it was close to what you could do with one feat on PAM (sometimes ahead, sometimes behind but fairly close though I was not counting the reaction attack in with that which puts PAM potentially ahead). With two feats it would certainly fall behind even if you add PAM to the mix (math becomes more difficult because now accuracy needs to be accounted for which means you need to decide what the base hit percentage is).

Of course if pure damage is not your thing then the whole things does not matter and it is the effect you really want such as booming blade potentially preventing movement.

If you want pure damage then taking feats with heavy weapons is the way to go. It might be better than sword and board though. The math for that is more difficult because getting advantage from shield master involves accuracy boosts again and dueling is much better on the attack action than it is on war magic (I prefer defense on EKs) so that might be an argument.

[dejarnjc]

Well Kryx had made the claim that War magic is less good than core class features, presumably he meant extra attack but I don't want to put words into his mouth so I may have misunderstood. That's what I initially responded to.

[djreynolds]

War magic is what it is. But what do get out of it hasted. Now it's pretty good as you can squeeze in something else.

War magic is free. If your saving spells for shield and perhaps have blur up, you can be a thorn in someone's side. Enough of a distraction to open up opportunities for others.

I think some domain spells would be appropriate.

And a 13 in wisdom or even better in charisma with opens it up by snagging 2 of paladin or some sorcerer.

I like the class, I just couldn't play it 20 levels.

[MeeposFire]

War magic is what it is. But what do get out of it hasted. Now it's pretty good as you can squeeze in something else.

War magic is free. If your saving spells for shield and perhaps have blur up, you can be a thorn in someone's side. Enough of a distraction to open up opportunities for others.

I think some domain spells would be appropriate.

And a 13 in wisdom or even better in charisma with opens it up by snagging 2 of paladin or some sorcerer.

I like the class, I just couldn't play it 20 levels.

?????

How is haste interacting with war magic? You cannot use the action from haste to cast a cantrip, haste does not give you an extra bonus action, and when you use it with the attack action you only get one attack. I am not sure how haste interacts with it in any special way.

[HidesHisEyes]

Well if you are adding feats that is when it falls behind. I believe when I did my napkin math depending on level if you can make sure you can get that extra damage then it was close to what you could do with one feat on PAM (sometimes ahead, sometimes behind but fairly close though I was not counting the reaction attack in with that which puts PAM potentially ahead). With two feats it would certainly fall behind even if you add PAM to the mix (math becomes more difficult because now accuracy needs to be accounted for which means you need to decide what the base hit percentage is).

Of course if pure damage is not your thing then the whole things does not matter and it is the effect you really want such as booming blade potentially preventing movement.

If you want pure damage then taking feats with heavy weapons is the way to go. It might be better than sword and board though. The math for that is more difficult because getting advantage from shield master involves accuracy boosts again and dueling is much better on the attack action than it is on war magic (I prefer defense on EKs) so that might be an argument.

It's pretty clear that EK is supposed to have its own style, distinct from standard non-magical greatsword and polearms styles which rely on feats. Tactical and flexible rather than being all about damage output. So I don't think it makes sense to compare it directly to a style that relies on feats, or to complain that EK features don't synergies well with feats.

[Citan]

I didn't realize that archetype features are meant to be downgrades of core class options, much less not comparable to other subclass options of an equivalent level.. I guess I'll inform my players to just pick up true strike war magic. That's the trick!

*sigh* I need to stop opening this thread.
I realize thanks to replies that I mixed up my example, I mixed up True Strike with Blade Ward. ;)

But beyond that, I'm amazed at your ability to blind yourself to your own biais...
War Magic is so much better than GWM in many instances...

Quick example: you have a Monk pal, who wants to reach and stun/kill a caster far behind, with a powerful melee creature in the middle of the way. By the looks of it, you have little chance to kill the middle-man, even on all successful GWM attacks.
Monk could make a detour to avoid opportunity attacks, but that would deprive him of the necessary move remaining to go back to safety.
He could also "waste" an attack provided he got Mobile feat, but that would hinder his chance to take care of the caster.

And you yourself cannot take care of the caster because you are not speedy enough.
Solution? Make a bonus action weapon attack (provided you have Eldricht Strike already, otherwise order doesn't matter) and cast Frostbite, or cast a Ray of Frost then close in to Shove prone, or just chain a Shocking Grasp and plain weapon attack, with the latter being obviously the best for Monk, while Ray of Frost would be the best for next round (unless ranged attackers wanted to hit that same creature of course).

Now Monk can run forth and back safely.


Quick other example: you want to protect a squishy that went out of his way and ended in open space, with both archers and fighters being a threat? Cast Minor Illusion or Mold Earth to create a quick cover for him, while you kill or shove prone the closest melee enemy before placing yourself on a side. Or if the main threat is one big melee, use Booming Blade on him along with shove or added damage to ensure he won't reach your pal.

Quick other example: you have to go into melee and want to tank while contributing to damage? Cast Blade Ward (which you can pair with emergency Shield if too many threats), you can still make at least one weapon attack on the turn in which you have to stay on the defensive (whereas Dodge would just incite enemies to choose other targets, in addition to now giving you any attack).

Quick other example: several of you in party don't have Darkvision, and nobody has Light? Cast Control Flames on a torch or lamp which you then throw or carry with you to lighten up the main battlefield area.

Quick other example: you want to finish off one enemy, but going into melee reach would mean you would stay in a very hot zone with many threats around, possibly being downed next turn as a result (or being forced to cast a Shield which you would rather have for the next encounter).
Instead of being stupid, move enough to be into range of a non-melee cantrip and possibly javelin if possible, attack, then go back to safety of a covered/out-of-reach position.

Quick other example: you want to deal high damage to an enemy, but it has extremely high AC (like >18) or is resistant to weapon damage, or both. Instead of risking doing extremely little damage, use a cantrip that targets a save.

Quick other example: an enemy caster is nearly down but managed to get back to its rear guard, 90 feet away. His turn is coming very soon, and you know if his turn comes it will be problematic.
As a plain GWM, you can just cry. At best, you can do 1 attack at disadvantage with javelin after using all your speed to get into range (incidentally, remember the thing about having to draw weapons in the TWF discussion? TWF could get 2 or 3 attacks depending on weapons and feats). As an Eldricht Knight, you can try to take care of him (Firebolt) AND STILL do something useful against another enemy because the cantrip range allows you to use all your speed to focus your move on someone else.

In all of these examples, there is no superhuman power involved, beyond the cantrip&shove special tactic, anybody could do it. But the potential loss for the caster would be much more important (because this is an action he could have spend on a high-level spell instead), while for an Eldricht Knight, you just lose out on damage. There is also the fact that it's something that can be made "right now", on your turn, whereas otherwise party should have to wait for someone else to take care of it, some time in which configuration could change, good or bad.

Of course you don't know all these cantrips either, so you have to make choices (unless you build him that way ^^). But these were just sparse, strictly RAW* examples of how useful War Magic can be.

Bottom line is: if your only way to play a martial (and only way to apprehend a class's capabilities) is "damage now, damage always, damage only", then go play a Champion Fighter or Bear Barbarian, because anything else is beyond your ability.

* Mending, Message, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation can also be put to good use but are much more dependent on your creatitivy and DM's interpretation.

EDIT: By the way, good job on "not comparable to other subclass options of comparable level"...
- Battlemaster gets Know your Enemy, which I love but rarely considered by people here (arguably for good reason, since they made it so cumbersome to use, basically you have to spend around 10 minutes to get vague informations about one creature, too much for too little for most people). I, like, never see anyone on these forums telling something like "I love that ability it's great".
- Champion gets Remarkable Athlete, which is pretty nice against spells and for jumps, but otherwise subpar as a way to improve some skills (much of an afterthought bonus that something really making a difference, especially when just a dip or Skilled feat provides much more, and there is also the downtime learning if DM agrees).
It's indeed not comparable, War Magic is much better (unless you chose cantrips you would never use whatever happens). XD
Or please explain to us how these are any better than War Magic (good luck).

[Specter]

Great examples, Citan. Really the final nail in the coffin of many misconceptions.

[djreynolds]

?????

How is haste interacting with war magic? You cannot use the action from haste to cast a cantrip, haste does not give you an extra bonus action, and when you use it with the attack action you only get one attack. I am not sure how haste interacts with it in any special way.

Haste gives you an additional action to attack with. So if you have haste going. You use war magic. Cantrip, BA attack, and then another attack. Not bad for an EK at 13th level when you can finally cast haste

[MeeposFire]

Haste gives you an additional action to attack with. So if you have haste going. You use war magic. Cantrip, BA attack, and then another attack. Not bad for an EK at 13th level when you can finally cast haste

But that has no real benefit to war magic. You could just haste yourself and just use attack actions and deal more damage. I mean yea haste will give you an extra attack but that is true for everybody who gets haste cast on them so again how does this have any special connection to war magic?

[Chunkosaurus]

But that has no real benefit to war magic. You could just haste yourself and just use attack actions and deal more damage. I mean yea haste will give you an extra attack but that is true for everybody who gets haste cast on them so again how does this have any special connection to war magic?

This thread is about the EK and"fixing it" EK can haste itself as well as use War Magic further pointing out it doesn't need fixing

[Scathain]

This thread is about the EK and"fixing it" EK can haste itself as well as use War Magic further pointing out it doesn't need fixing

This exactly. The problem is not with the class itself, but the perception of it. What we need is an arcane half-caster. Then people can stop bitching about the EK not living up to their expectations.

[MeeposFire]

This thread is about the EK and"fixing it" EK can haste itself as well as use War Magic further pointing out it doesn't need fixing

Except that the comment right there was talking about haste and war magic specifically being good with each other and there is no connection using war magic with a cantrip having any special connection to haste.

Haste does not make war magic with a cantrip better. Haste does not benefit an EK using war magic anymore than an EK using the attack action it provides the same exact set of benefits. Yes haste is a nice buff there is no argument here about that only that there is nothing special about haste that interacts with basic war magic.

[Citan]

Except that the comment right there was talking about haste and war magic specifically being good with each other and there is no connection using war magic with a cantrip having any special connection to haste.

Haste does not make war magic with a cantrip better. Haste does not benefit an EK using war magic anymore than an EK using the attack action it provides the same exact set of benefits. Yes haste is a nice buff there is no argument here about that only that there is nothing special about haste that interacts with basic war magic.
Indeed. In fact, you could even argue that it depreciates War Magic for a melee fighter because the added mobility and option to Dash as a dedicated action makes it much easier to get in and out of reach in an efficient way.:smallbiggrin: