Why exactly is Shadowcraft Mage OP?

[RoboEmperor]

I've been using this class just for fluff purposes, but why exactly is this class OP?

The Bad
1. SR:YES, for everything. Basically renders all BFC spells unreliable. Solid Fog? They beat the SR and not only do they move unimpeded, they can see through the fog since it's translucent/transparent to them. Web? same thing. Iron Wall? By RAW they can see and walk right through it if they disbelieve.
2. Summons are weak. They have reduced hitpoints regardless of save, their damage and SLAs effectiveness drop upon disbelief, and you cannot apply any summon boosting feats or class features.

The Good
1. Ignore material components and Casting times. This is why I go shadowcraft mage occasionally, but hardly seems good enough for all the downsides the class brings. Most notably, Contingency is awesome with the standard action cast time and no focus required.
2. Versatility. At least for me this doesn't really seem like a huge enough plus to significantly capsize your combat power. Someone needs to explain to me why this is so awesome and worth the downsides of this PrC.
3. No cost. It has been pointed out to me that a real shadowcraft mage (not mine) memorizes the SR:NO spells along with the silent images, so no downside, all upside PrC.
4. Single Focus. Just put all your feats into buffing Illusion and Silent Images. For example Spell Focus:Illusion, Metamagic School Focus:Illusion, Arcane Thesis:Silent Image, and they will buff all the things you do, where as a specialized caster can only focus on one thing and completely neglect the others.

Negated Counter Arguments
1. 100%+ reality (upto 160% on a failed save): Only happens end game. From start to finish, assuming just Earth Spell Early Entry, you get +20% at level 10, +10% at 12-13 and another +10% at 16-17. So according to this you get 100% at level 13. This means combined with earth spell, your spells are normal levels 13+, but that doesn't change the fact that everything is SR:YES and 12 levels are a good chunk of the game to spend just to achieve "normal". At higher levels your spells actually do more damage than their normal counterparts, but only if they fail the will save, and it.

TO Stuff
1. Shadow Miracles: Seems like the only thing OP about this class, but it only negates the XP cost of "greater effects". The XP/Material components of the spell Miracle duplicates is required in addition to miracle's components. They are two separate things, so shadow miracles only negate miracle's material components, not the duplicated spell's requirements. Also, only comes online at level 18 (assuming using wyrm wizard, since this class feature specifically says it puts the spell on your class spell list). At level 18 game is practically over.

I've been playing Shadowcraft Mage because being equipment independent is huge for me and I'm willing to accept all the downsides for it, but it still bothers me why a lot of DMs instantly cringe upon hearing the words "Shadowcraft Mage".

edit:The Answer
Ungodly amount of level 9 Spells! at 160% reality!
All level 9 spells are level 10 silent images thx to Earth Spell.
All level 1 spells are silent images heightened to level 10 thx to Residual Metamagic
All level 8 spells are level 10 silent images thx to metamagic reducers like DMM: Heighten, or metamagic school focus: illusion
All level 2 spells are silent images heightened to level 10 thx to residual Metamagic.
It continues until you run out of metamagic reducers!

[Yuki Akuma]

You can pump shadow illusion reality above 100%. I think the cap is something like 160% for 9th level spells?

Another fun trick is using Residual Magic to effectively turn your cantrip slots into extra 9th level slots. (Or whatever your highest spell level is.)

[RoboEmperor]

You can pump shadow illusion reality above 100%. I think the cap is something like 160% for 9th level spells?

Another fun trick is using Residual Magic to effectively turn your cantrip slots into extra 9th level slots. (Or whatever your highest spell level is.)

I remember you in a previous SCM thread XD.

Since the majority of the game doesn't happen at level 17+, I'm looking at spell level 7-ish, so you have at least a good chunk of the game to enjoy.

Even with 160% reality, they do less blasting damage than a real blaster. I'm not talking about a full blown mailman, just arcane thesis + twin spell + maximize spell, but I guess 160% summoned creatures do more damage than the ones summoned by decently summon boosted characters.

Residual metamagic is a great point, I'll add that in.

[lord_khaine]

You can pump shadow illusion reality above 100%. I think the cap is something like 160% for 9th level spells?

This was already mentioned, with an early entry trick you need to hit level 16+ for that.


2. Versatility. At least for me this doesn't really seem like a huge enough plus to significantly capsize your combat power. Someone needs to explain to me why this is so awesome and worth the downsides of this PrC.

I suspect its mainly awesome when your not running a high-op game, where there being SR on all spells is less of an issue, and you are not forced to meta-magic your spells to make them relevant.
My mages have stayed relevant just by picking empower spell and spell penetration as feats.

[Necroticplague]

1. Incredibly easy to qualify for. I've designed characters who can enter it at second level.
2. It's a full caster. This, by default, makes it incredibly powerful. Even if it's own class features did nothing, you don't lose out on any caster versatility or power.
3. You can always choose to fail saves vs disbelief to effect yourself 100%. This is very useful for making constructs for yourself (like bridges or platforms for safety)
4. It's increase in versatility is fairly massive, since it lets one spell known (heightened silent image) take place of many minor utility and buff spells. Mount, royal procession, create magic tattoo, mage armor? No need, you got this.
5. With the Enhanced Shadow Reality and Planar Bubble, 100% reality can be done by level 9, and it moves upwards from there (even without Shadowcrafter).
6. Even without 100% reality, indirect BFC can still be useful even if they pass their save. A partially real solid wall is still a solid wall they can't walk through (even if it's easier to smash through than a real one). They may not have trouble fighting your shadowy summons, but those shadows still clog up the battlefield for your foe unless they take care of them.

[RoboEmperor]

1. Incredibly easy to qualify for. I've designed characters who can enter it at second level.
That's TO level early entry (DMM:Heighten Spell = level 3 entry for one, I know you're talking about flaws + Precocious Apprentice), and early entry doesn't exactly make it OP, just means you get your schtick sooner, and even then, no earth spell so you're gonna perform pathetically unless you ignore the class until you get earth spell. Anyways, this is not specific to SCM, so I don't think it matters for this topic.


2. It's a full caster. This, by default, makes it incredibly powerful. Even if it's own class features did nothing, you don't lose out on any caster versatility or power.
This is a common misunderstanding. Sure compared to a 20 sorcerer you're correct, but this is "OP Level" we're talking about, so you are losing 5 PrC levels, so it's gotta be worth it. I said sorcerer because as a wizard, you lose a bonus wizard feat, which could be a cleric Domain power a la ACFs.


3. You can always choose to fail saves vs disbelief to effect yourself 100%. This is very useful for making constructs for yourself (like bridges or platforms for safety)
And contingency :). I mean, the RAI is perfectly clear that you have full control over your spell and you choose what affects you and what doesn't, so those people who say you can't believe your own spells are just angry at the combo.


4. It's increase in versatility is fairly massive, since it lets one spell known (heightened silent image) take place of many minor utility and buff spells. Mount, royal procession, create magic tattoo, mage armor? No need, you got this.
Why not just memorize those spells directly? I mean you mainly mentioned 1hour/level+ duration spells so, I mean I would understand it if it was 1min/level or 1round/level, but 1hour/level spells?


5. With the Enhanced Shadow Reality and Planar Bubble, 100% reality can be done by level 9, and it moves upwards from there (even without Shadowcrafter).
You need to have a native from the plane of shadow, pretty sure summoned shadow creatures don't qualify because they are created in the material plane using materials from the shadow plane. And if we're doing planar bubble, the 10:1 plane is 10 times better XD.


6. Even without 100% reality, indirect BFC can still be useful even if they pass their save. A partially real solid wall is still a solid wall they can't walk through (even if it's easier to smash through than a real one). They may not have trouble fighting your shadowy summons, but those shadows still clog up the battlefield for your foe unless they take care of them.
I thought you were wrong about this one. Shadow Conjuration clearly says any objects created have a x% chance to work against disbelievers and the shadow creatures become transparent images so it doesn't block vision, but wall creation is EVOCATION, which doesn't have such rules. So you might be right about that.

Also, shadowy summons clogging up the battlefield isn't an argument, since normal summoners do the same except better, and we're discussing why SCM are "OP".

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why not just memorize those spells directly? I mean you mainly mentioned 1hour/level+ duration spells so, I mean I would understand it if it was 1min/level or 1round/level, but 1hour/level spells?
Because it means that one memorized Silent Image spell can turn into any of those spells on the fly. Fighting a big clumsy guy? It becomes Grease. Bunch of small dudes? It becomes Web instead. Find yourself needing to get someone quick? Mount. The higher level you get, the more exponentially useful it becomes. Not to mention that for a spontaneous caster, it means that you can "know" all of those spells for the price of one.

[RoboEmperor]

Because it means that one memorized Silent Image spell can turn into any of those spells on the fly. Fighting a big clumsy guy? It becomes Grease. Bunch of small dudes? It becomes Web instead. Find yourself needing to get someone quick? Mount. The higher level you get, the more exponentially useful it becomes. Not to mention that for a spontaneous caster, it means that you can "know" all of those spells for the price of one.

I get that, i do, so it might be appealing for a sorcerer, but I dunno, you are sacrificing a significant part of your combat ability.

Just like how even 5% arcane spell failure is unacceptable, critical spells being negated by SR is just as bad, so it is my understanding risking "spell failure" for versatility is unacceptable. Grease and Web becomes SR:YES so with an addition of a will save...

I do get how that 1 spell can create bridges, mounts, vegetable matter, etc, is good, but is it worth SR:YES? And why is this versatility "OP" for nonsorcerers?

Personally this feels like an "equal trade" to me, not "ZOMG THIS PRC IS SO OP!!!"

[Endarire]

Let's say that Shadowcraft Mage is a good class - perhaps even spectacular - if you play it correctly and your campaign allows it to shine.

Remember, as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Beguiler, Bard, Cleric, or whatever, you assumedly have spell slots you can and will use for other things. Sometimes, you use silent image as merely a silent image. Sometimes you prepare/learn orb of fire normally. Sometimes, you want to decide 'on the fly' what you want silent image to be and you're OK with Will saves and SR. (After all, if you have a super high save DC and you aren't expecting to fight foes with SR, the SCM version of web or whatever is likely approximately as useful as the normal version.)

I agree that being able to enter early (level 2 or 4) means you get to the PrC fun (and your focus) sooner, which, in real time, may be about 1 level per month. If you're a Wizard, do you want your level 5 feat (which is probably not so exciting) or do you want to enter SCM at level 2 and gain 5 levels of class features as well as full casting before entering Incantatrix?

I suspect people say SCM is overpowered because of the hypotheticals of the class - the >100% shadow reality, the ability to duplicate EPIC SPELLS (via Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, etc.), and the potential of having the right spell at the right time via Shadow Illusion (especially Shadow miracle).

See The Shadowcraft Mage Handbook (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471552-Shadowcraft-Mage-Handbook-(NineInchNail)) for more.

[Necroticplague]

That's TO level early entry (DMM:Heighten Spell = level 3 entry for one, I know you're talking about flaws + Precocious Apprentice), and early entry doesn't exactly make it OP, just means you get your schtick sooner, and even then, no earth spell so you're gonna perform pathetically unless you ignore the class until you get earth spell. Anyways, this is not specific to SCM, so I don't think it matters for this topic. True, I wasn't thinking so much you can get your trick early, as you can get it without severe cost. Some powerful things have their costs mitigated by having to sacrifice a lot to get them. SCM doesn't, because it's costs are incredibly low.
Also, while you're right about Precocious Apprentice use, Eldritch Corruption is what boosts the spell level. Not really TO. Not sure how Earth Spell is needed for anything, so you're gonna have to spell it out for me.



This is a common misunderstanding. Sure compared to a 20 sorcerer you're correct, but this is "OP Level" we're talking about, so you are losing 5 PrC levels, so it's gotta be worth it. I said sorcerer because as a wizard, you lose a bonus wizard feat, which could be a cleric Domain power a la ACFs.Again, power of one thing is relative to power of another. You give up next to nothing, so any increase in power is more towards OP.


Why not just memorize those spells directly? I mean you mainly mentioned 1hour/level+ duration spells so, I mean I would understand it if it was 1min/level or 1round/level, but 1hour/level spells?
1. I don't normally play spellcasters, so it's quiet possible there are better choices I don't know of.
2. why blow four spells known on 4 spells when you can get the same benefit out of one spell known on one, if you get the same results either way?

You need to have a native from the plane of shadow, pretty sure summoned shadow creatures don't qualify because they are created in the material plane using materials from the shadow plane. And if we're doing planar bubble, the 10:1 plane is 10 times better XD.
I see no reason that a gnome can't be a native to the Plane of Shadow. Barring that, Acorn of Far Travel soaking in Quintessence can also work.


Also, shadowy summons clogging up the battlefield isn't an argument, since normal summoners do the same except better, and we're discussing why SCM are "OP".
It come back to the versatility schtick. The summoner might be better at it, but unless they know how many times they need to do it, they can get things wrong by readying the relevant spells the wrong amount of times. Or for a spontaneous caster, every 'summon relevant monster' is an extra spell known used, for a total of 9 over their career. Every spell they prepare (or spell known they use) has an opportunity cost. For an SCM, that cost is considerably lowered, because they get a massive amount of versatility, and a bit of power, out of just one spell (Silent Image).

So, I guess to try and summarize: The class isn't a massive gain in raw power. However, it is a considerable mitigation in one of the primary weaknesses of mages, by considerably decreasing oppurtunity costs, especially combined with some basic tricks that can magnify it (Signature Spell: Silent Image, for example). It's versatility gives it a reputation as being OP because you can pull solutions out of thin air more than a normal caster (who usually would have somewhat needed to prepare for the situation).


I get that, i do, so it might be appealing for a sorcerer, but I dunno, you are sacrificing a significant part of your combat ability.
How are you sacrificing combat ability? The SCM stuff is on top what you already do as a caster, not in place of it.

[RoboEmperor]

True, I wasn't thinking so much you can get your trick early, as you can get it without severe cost. Some powerful things have their costs mitigated by having to sacrifice a lot to get them. SCM doesn't, because it's costs are incredibly low.
Also, while you're right about Precocious Apprentice use, Eldritch Corruption is what boosts the spell level. Not really TO. Not sure how Earth Spell is needed for anything, so you're gonna have to spell it out for me.

...

How are you sacrificing combat ability? The SCM stuff is on top what you already do as a caster, not in place of it.

Sorry, my playstyle got in the way of my thinking. If I go SCM, 100% of my spells are heightened silent images, so I was thinking if I want my spells to stay relevant, especially my shadow summons, they gotta be at least equal level, hence the mandatory earth spell requirement.


Again, power of one thing is relative to power of another. You give up next to nothing, so any increase in power is more towards OP.

Cleric Domain powers are nothing to sneeze at, so I wouldn't say they are next to nothing.


It come back to the versatility schtick. The summoner might be better at it, but unless they know how many times they need to do it, they can get things wrong by readying the relevant spells the wrong amount of times. Or for a spontaneous caster, every 'summon relevant monster' is an extra spell known used, for a total of 9 over their career. Every spell they prepare (or spell known they use) has an opportunity cost. For an SCM, that cost is considerably lowered, because they get a massive amount of versatility, and a bit of power, out of just one spell (Silent Image).

Thing is though, summoners have tremendous versatility too, especially SM VII.


So, I guess to try and summarize: The class isn't a massive gain in raw power. However, it is a considerable mitigation in one of the primary weaknesses of mages, by considerably decreasing oppurtunity costs, especially combined with some basic tricks that can magnify it (Signature Spell: Silent Image, for example). It's versatility gives it a reputation as being OP because you can pull solutions out of thin air more than a normal caster (who usually would have somewhat needed to prepare for the situation).

All this just sounds like a good trade, not "ZOMG OP!", like if I was DMing, I don't think I would have a problem with anything you said, including early entry.


I suspect people say SCM is overpowered because of the hypotheticals of the class - the >100% shadow reality, the ability to duplicate EPIC SPELLS (via Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, etc.), and the potential of having the right spell at the right time via Shadow Illusion (especially Shadow miracle).

There is no way in the nine hells you can ever replicate Epic Spells with Shadow Illusions even if you are level 99. It clearly states Epic Spells are NOT level 10 spells and they are merely treated like one for spell DC stuff purposes.

But yeah, I think I get it now. Ungodly amount of metamagic reducers to turn all your spell slots into level 9 160% reality spells.

Residual Metamagic turns all your lower level spells into Level 9 Spells, Ungodly amount of metamagic reducers could turn possibly all level 7, and 8 spell slots into level 9 spells.

Having 40+ level 9 160% reality spells does seem very OP! DMM:Heighten Spell + Nightsticks alone could turn all level 7 and 8 spells into level 9 spells, x2 thanks to residual metamagic. I might give this a try LOL.

[Deophaun]

3. You can always choose to fail saves vs disbelief to effect yourself 100%. This is very useful for making constructs for yourself (like bridges or platforms for safety)
The problem is, you don't even get a save if you have proof that the spell is an illusion--it's an automatic disbelief--which you do because you cast the spell. The only exception is a gnome illusionist.

[VisitingDaGulag]

The first reply makes me want to build a ScM and then use in-character time to argue with the DM whenever the PC casts a spell. After all if he can not believe his own spells, he'll have no reason to believe that he really did cast fireball on that orc over there. He'll insist to all other character that all magical effects they create didn't really happen. All his actions will be spent trying to Mr. Magoo away the very things he's causing to happen. :smallbiggrin:

Once the entire game breaks down into sophistry, I'll post a campaign journal and finally assure that no one will never allow disbelieving ones own spells again. Or, you know, we can just read that rules of the game article about illusions and say it isn't RAW. :smallcool:

[RoboEmperor]

The problem is, you don't even get a save if you have proof that the spell is an illusion--it's an automatic disbelief--which you do because you cast the spell. The only exception is a gnome illusionist.

No, you don't need a save if you have proof the spell is an illusion. You can choose to get a save, you just don't need to.


A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

Again, the RAI is clear that you can fully opt to receive the "negative" parts of the spells you cast intentionally, hence the quip about voluntarily losing saving throws, so if you want to be completely enveloped in your own shadow spells, you can.

[prototype00]

You also always count as a creature from the Plane of Shadow with a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

With Planar bubble that's free maximised spells.

[Deophaun]

No, you don't need a save if you have proof the spell is an illusion. You can choose to get a save, you just don't need to.
But, what is a failed saving throw?

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss.
So, are you saying you can fail to notice that you cast the spell?

Nope. Need to be a gnome illusionist for that ability.

[RoboEmperor]

So, are you saying you can fail to notice that you cast the spell?

If you close your eyes, you fail to see the illusion therefore you fail to notice anything wrong with it, therefore shadow creatures will hurt you, shadow objects will touch you, and shadow fireballs will burn you.

Saving throw is a saving throw. You intentionally fail the will save to disbelief so you are full affected by your own spell.

By RAW you can fail all saving throws. By RAW you can opt to get a saving throw when you have proof. By RAI, choosing to be affected by the "negative" parts of your own spell is intentional. You are grasping at straws here.

[magicalmagicman]

Quasi-reality cannot go beyond 100%, because like a few posters above me said, you can voluntarily lose a saving throw, so anyone who notices the shadow stuff got stronger when you know it's a shadow, then everyone would voluntarily lose that saving throw.

[prototype00]

Quasi-reality cannot go beyond 100%, because like a few posters above me said, you can voluntarily lose a saving throw, so anyone who notices the shadow stuff got stronger when you know it's a shadow, then everyone would voluntarily lose that saving throw.

So what you're saying is that it will affect them at >100% at least once, more if they are stupid/have no ranks in Spellcraft?

[icefractal]

I get that, i do, so it might be appealing for a sorcerer, but I dunno, you are sacrificing a significant part of your combat ability.Pretty appealing for a Wizard too, if we're talking about the typical type of campaign, where:
1) Accelerated-time tricks to re-prep all spells in an instant aren't a thing.
2) The PCs adventure for multiple days in a row, not taking extended breaks to perform exhaustive divinations.

In that context, you have to make some guesses on spell preparation, sometime you don't have the exact spell you want, and so the ability to spontaneously cast anything from most of two schools is pretty valuable.

I wouldn't say its OP in the world of high optimization, but it's one of the better PrCs.

[tyckspoon]

I doubt this will be a convincing argument to the OP, since it seems like the measuring stick is things like fully-loaded Mailmen and persist-o-mancers, but one of the benefits of having the vast majority of your spells be shadow illusions is getting better use out of narrowly-focused boosters- if every single spell you cast is actually a modified Silent Image, then you get a lot of mileage from things like Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Arcane Thesis: Silent Image, and the Minor Esoterica of the Master Specialist (Illusionist) prestige class, which gives +2 DC to all your Will-save-to-Disbelieve spells. Everything having an extra save isn't as big a deal when those save DCs are +4 or more over the DC of a more generalist caster.

Also, this may depend a little on how you think shadow mimicing a spell works, but I don't think this is actually true:

2. No Metamagic on Blasting. The only way blasting stays relevant lategame is through stacking metamagic reducers for twin+maximized+whatever. In addition, everyone switches to Orbs because of spell resistance, but not the SCM. In addition to the normal save and SR, the victim gets a will save to negate damage even further.

Nothing actually stops you from sticking Maximize/Twin/Empower on a Silent Image; it just doesn't normally do anything because the base Silent Image doesn't have the relevant properties to be affected. Mimic an Evocation or Conjuration blast with it, however, and now it does.

I would also note that as a mere 5-level prestige class, you can easily fit Shadowcraft in alongside other powerful prestige options; even without early entry, something like Wizard 3/Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft 5/ Incantatrix 8 (or Archmage, or Initiate of the Veils) is a possibility. With early entry, you could potentially cut out one of those Wizard levels or Master Specialist if the DC bonuses aren't important to you and fully complete Incantatrix.

[RoboEmperor]

Nothing actually stops you from sticking Maximize/Twin/Empower on a Silent Image; it just doesn't normally do anything because the base Silent Image doesn't have the relevant properties to be affected. Mimic an Evocation or Conjuration blast with it, however, and now it does.

You might be right about this. I'm gonna double check the RAW when i have time just to be sure. If that's the case then yeah, it significantly boosts the effectiveness of SCM, and you're right about everything else, like getting huge mileage out of the feats you mentioned. The SR:YES is still a ***** though, hmm...


So what you're saying is that it will affect them at >100% at least once, more if they are stupid/have no ranks in Spellcraft?

I guess it would be risky to lose a saving throw on purpose when you don't know what it is, even if it's from an attack from a shadow creature. For all you know it could be a dominate monster type effect.

[Necroticplague]

Cleric Domain powers are nothing to sneeze at, so I wouldn't say they are next to nothing.Most are relatively minor. Even a domain itself is just a handful of extra spell (much less than what SCM gives you), and the most common domain powers I've seen are either limited by cleric level in duration, so limited in duration so as to be not particularly good, or a minor CL boost (which SCM can give you)


Thing is though, summoners have tremendous versatility too, especially SM VII. Not nearly as much as an SCM's Silent Image has. Even if loses out on 9th level SM list (which, given Earth Spell, isn't a guarantee), there's at least 3 more 'lines' of summoning spells Silent Image can pull from, and the couple dozen 'summon a very specific creature better than normal' spell, in addition to it's myriad other uses.


All this just sounds like a good trade, not "ZOMG OP!", like if I was DMing, I don't think I would have a problem with anything you said, including early entry.
It depends on what you use as a reference point. As a straight caster, it's a definite upgrade, and excellent quality of life increase. If you compare it to things like Spelldancer, Incantatrix, or Dweomerkeeper, it comes across as balanced. If you compare it to most other classes, it comes off as disproportionately powerful, due to it's versatility increase being well above what an average PRC offers.

[Yuki Akuma]

The SR:YES is still a ***** though, hmm...

It really isn't. Most things don't have Spell Resistance, and for things that do, just cast battlefield control spells rather than spells that actually target them.

[RoboEmperor]

It really isn't. Most things don't have Spell Resistance, and for things that do, just cast battlefield control spells rather than spells that actually target them.

All non-humans at higher levels have SR, especially outsiders. So do dragons, but yeah I guess if your campaign is mostly humanoids with class levels, it probably isn't a problem.

Removed the can't apply metamagic stuff in the first post. Ok, I see it now, SCM can compete with blasting, maybe even stronger thx to 160% reality, so yeah, it can do everything virtually well. Assay Resistance is a thing, along with true casting, and that sorcerer spell spell surge?

[tyckspoon]

All non-humans at higher levels have SR, especially outsiders. So do dragons, but yeah I guess if your campaign is mostly humanoids with class levels, it probably isn't a problem.

Removed the can't apply metamagic stuff in the first post. Ok, I see it now, SCM can compete with blasting, maybe even stronger thx to 160% reality, so yeah, it can do everything virtually well. Assay Resistance is a thing, along with true casting, and that sorcerer spell spell surge?

Default dragon spell resistance is fairly terrible relative to their HD and CR; you get pretty good odds of beating it without any special resources into boosting caster level or breaking SR, and it's practically automatic if you do. For tougher targets, well, just like anything else in D&D if you put the resources into it you get ways to beat it. You can take the Arcane Mastery feat, which lets you Take 10 on caster level checks; now anything less than (your CL+10) is the same as no SR to you, you don't even have to roll against it. If you're using the Earth Spell package, your Heighten effects also come with bonus caster level, which aids significantly in not caring about SR. You can buy a Third Eye: Penetrate for a pretty cheap +2 bonus on SR checks (Stacks with Spell Penetration if you decide to take or acquire the actual feat as a bonus, too.) Arcane Thesis gives a caster level bonus to the chosen spell in addition to the metamagic reduction, so that's pretty cool. So, for a level 20 example, your Heightened Silent Image SR test might look like (Base CL 20 + 2 Arcane Thesis + 1 Orange Ioun Stone + 1 Ring of Arcane Might) = 24 + (level 1 spell Earth Heightened to 10 = 8 bonus CL) = 32 + (Take 10 Arcane Mastery + 2 Third Eye: Penetrate) = 44. If you run into something that has better than SR 44, you've still got True Casting/Assay Spell Resistance in your pocket, or you can just admit you're going to have to use the fact that you're still a Wizard and cast a non-illusion spell that doesn't permit SR. (And an SR that high would have to be something like a Great Wyrm dragon with several copies of the Awaken Spell Resistance feat, other Epic-class monsters, or a Greater Consumptive Field/Circle Magic/other caster-level cheesing build using the Spell Resistance spell.)

Personally, I would say Shadowcraft Mage's biggest weakness in this discussion is probably the amount of feats you need to keep up with other casters in their specialties. If you want to blast, you're looking for at least some of the blasty metamagics and Arcane Thesis for your chosen spell, just like the regular blasty dude does. You probably need Arcane Mastery since casting a non-shadow SR: No spell is your last, least-preferred resort, so that's at least one more feat the Orb of Fire guy isn't bothering with. If you're using the Earth Spell package, that's three more feats (ok, you were probably taking Heighten anyways, but the blasty-dude or general control caster wasn't.) And sure, there are ways to alleviate that, but there's definitely a point where you hand enough feats to a Tier 1 caster and they hit the singularity where they all have functionally the same abilities anyway; at that point, it's mostly a matter of cosmetics whether you got there through Shadowcraft or Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper or just being a bog-standard Wizard and Dark Chaos'ing all of your assorted feats from any source into spellcasting related ones.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've played ScM at various levels and always found them to be not at all overpowered, I really don't know why so many think that. Yes, with very specific exploits (especially "Shadow Miracles", which is easy to ban...it's not something a ScM can just do out of the gate) it can be broken, much like any full caster has broken tricks.

But using it otherwise? I always felt like "the bard of primary casters" when playing one. Able to do a lot of stuff on the fly...none of it that good.

You touched on everything getting SR, which removes the biggest advantage of creation spells. What you didn't touch on is that the % reality pumping...really doesn't even matter. For summons, it just affects hp....they're expendable and short duration, who cares? For non-damaging evocation effects (ie, the good stuff), % reality is meaningless because of the shadow evocation text that states if an affected creature disbelieves the illusion, it suffers no effects at all.
For walls, webbing, etc... from the creation subschool, being 200% real is the same as being 100% real.
The ONLY benefit you really gain tends to be on blasting / direct damage spells. Which a) who cares? and b) if you wanted to be the ultimate blaster you chose the wrong career path.

Shadow Illusion gives you a ton of flexibility, especially if you can use heightened silent image spontaneously. But it doesn't give you power. If anything, all the invested feats and focus on the one schtick takes away from your chances to gain power.
You can pretty much always summon monsters, do direct damage, or put up walls or webs or such until you run out of spell slots, with most of those options being gimped compared to the real version regardless of % reality (which contrary to what most people think is NOT so easy to get to 100% until high levels). That's pretty cool. That's like...upper tier 3 levels of problem solving. But you started with a tier 1 or 2 class, so....*yawn*

It's a fun class, I'm not trying to "diss" it at all. But it's not the powerhouse it's made out to be.
(And you pretty much need a collar of umbral metamorphosis + Planar Bubble spell to actually use the class features outside the planes co-terminus to the material plane, btw)

[RoboEmperor]

The ONLY benefit you really gain tends to be on blasting / direct damage spells. Which a) who cares? and b) if you wanted to be the ultimate blaster you chose the wrong career path.

Summoned creatures get the damage bonus from 100+% reality too.

My thoughts were similar to yours which is why I posted this thread.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Summoned creatures get the damage bonus from 100+% reality too.

My thoughts were similar to yours which is why I posted this thread.

Ah, I see... the hp is %-based regardless but the damage it deals does change from full to %-based if they disbelieve. Guess I missed that part. Still, if you're burning a 9th level spell slot on a summon to get around +50% damage on its attacks, that's still pretty unimpressive. And at lower spell levels, the added damage will be even less (10% less per spell level lower). And that assuming you invested pumping reality up in the first place. Meh...

Glad you made the thread, poor ScM's name has been drug through the mud on forums. It's got absolutely nothing on actual powerhouse caster PrC's.

[prototype00]

I think I found the real value of ScM in pulling up tier 3/2 classes like the Beguiler (well the Beguiler is the main one though you could also be a Bard Sublime Chord with some work) rather than something you tack onto a Tier 1 chassis.

The Beguiler as a whole lacks a whole bunch of versatility that can be more than compensated by the ScM, and with their crapload of spells they make good use of that versatility.

If you look at it like that, ScM is a godsend, if you look at it from a Wizards point of view it would be a tad disappointing.

[magicalmagicman]

But, what is a failed saving throw?

So, are you saying you can fail to notice that you cast the spell?

Nope. Need to be a gnome illusionist for that ability.

By your logic, the caster has 0% chance of walking on his own shadow bridge, ride on his own shadow carriage, or even sleep on his own shadow bed. I believe this is not the intent of even Shadow Conjuration spells, so I'm gonna have to agree that it makes no sense you cannot be affected by your own shadow spells.

edit: Or hold your own Shadow Sword. Only your opponent gets a chance to disbelieve and be unaffected by the shadow sword. You can hold your shadow sword. See the spell Spectral Weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

By your logic, the caster has 0% chance of walking on his own shadow bridge, ride on his own shadow carriage, or even sleep on his own shadow bed. I believe this is not the intent of even Shadow Conjuration spells, so I'm gonna have to agree that it makes no sense you cannot be affected by your own shadow spells.

edit: Or hold your own Shadow Sword. Only your opponent gets a chance to disbelieve and be unaffected by the shadow sword. You can hold your shadow sword. See the spell Spectral Weapon.Given his screen name, magicalmagicman is the expert on magic. He must be correct!

[ayvango]

SR may be a problem for an occasional shadowcraft mage, but it is not for a dedicated build. Take wizard as main caster, 1 level dip into bard, early qualify for shadowcraft mage, then take sublime chord and use ultimate magus to progress both. Somewhere around 11th level you would be able to cast shadow miracle. And you stake caster levels to overcome SR.

[Ramza00]

SR may be a problem for an occasional shadowcraft mage, but it is not for a dedicated build. Take wizard as main caster, 1 level dip into bard, early qualify for shadowcraft mage, then take sublime chord and use ultimate magus to progress both. Somewhere around 11th level you would be able to cast shadow miracle. And you stake caster levels to overcome SR.
This is [Thread] Necromancy, not illusion casting :smallwink:

[Mato]

I've been using this class just for fluff purposes, but why exactly is this class OP?My first guess on what your answer should be is "nothing this thread will discuss".

Like you can almost bet there will be fourteen pages of people arguing that you can choose to fail a will save even through if you're faced with proof it's an illusion (like the guy casting the spell would know) you already disbelieved it before you tried asking if you could roll a save against it in the first place. Secondly the rules never said failing your will save makes you a believer, so if you already know it's fake and tried to fail the save then you would notice nothing is amiss with the spell you know is an illusion. In other words, you know for a diehard fact the spell's effects are fake like they are supposed to be. I will also bet that even through 10th level spells don't exist mechanically, and flavor wise in certain campaign settings they are banned from all mortal means, and heighten spell says you can only improve a spell up to 9th level someone is bound to talk about their 10th level spell being 120% real when they fail their save against it (even through failing your save means you get the "full effect" or 100% and not anything higher).

The more accurate answer is SCM invests multiple levels to gain the handicap of adding a spell resistance check and spell level penalty on a chance to extend on silent spell's usefulness. A few things can be added to this in a dedicated build, like by adding a multiple feat tax and MAD requirement of 13 wisdom you can mitigate the level penalty so long as you never engage in flight like every other spellcaser does to avoid damage. And while replicating damage with a penalty, something no god-style wizard does even at full strength, is borderline as useless as being a fighter and area control effects almost never work because if even one creature saves they can prompt extra save attempts with a +4 bonus as a free action. Those penalties vanish towards the end of the game when the shadow effects reach 100% real. So within a niche of investment and key level range, you can attempt to affirmation of the consequent and argue that if versatility is powerful than making silent image versatile must be too. Even if it took a sizeable investment to reach that point and it adds a crippling spell resistance check to every usage.

Like I would argue residual metamagic is OP. For the cost of a feat and a 6th level slot you can persist a 9th level spell like shapechange. For the cost of an 8th level slot you can quicken & twin a cantrip to twin another 8th or higher. For the cost of 5th level slot you can apply unambiguously apply heighten to a cantrip increasing it's effective level to 5 and then since lingering metamagic doesn't change to the spell's level and heighten's effective level is based on, well it's effective level which doesn't change, you... HEY IS THAT TREE ON FIRE? And that's why I think it's cost to gain ratio is fairly high which is the real basis for considering it something should be considered over powered. But to me, the fact the SCM requires other independently OP stuff like chaotic spell recall & residual metamagic to attempt to achieve the same cost-to-benefit ratio has me saying it's not.

Plus have you even seen what a a normal wizard can do? With echoing spell he can exponentially expand the number of spells he can cast far beyond his prepared limits and with Shalantha's delicate disk he can store thousands of 5th level spells in a bag of holding for back up. Being able to expend a 9th level spell slot for a 9th level conjuration spell would a drop in the pond if it were cost free.

[ayvango]

take chain of disbelief and you are entitled for a save with +10 modifier.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My first guess on what your answer should be is "nothing this thread will discuss".

Like you can almost bet there will be fourteen pages of people arguing that you can choose to fail a will save even through if you're faced with proof it's an illusion (like the guy casting the spell would know) you already disbelieved it before you tried asking if you could roll a save against it in the first place. Secondly the rules never said failing your will save makes you a believer, so if you already know it's fake and tried to fail the save then you would notice nothing is amiss with the spell you know is an illusion. In other words, you know for a diehard fact the spell's effects are fake like they are supposed to be. I will also bet that even through 10th level spells don't exist mechanically, and flavor wise in certain campaign settings they are banned from all mortal means, and heighten spell says you can only improve a spell up to 9th level someone is bound to talk about their 10th level spell being 120% real when they fail their save against it (even through failing your save means you get the "full effect" or 100% and not anything higher).Problem is, knowing it's an illusion doesn't mean you auto-pass the save, else that would make a ton of illusion spells completely useless. As MMM said:


By your logic, the caster has 0% chance of walking on his own shadow bridge, ride on his own shadow carriage, or even sleep on his own shadow bed. I believe this is not the intent of even Shadow Conjuration spells, so I'm gonna have to agree that it makes no sense you cannot be affected by your own shadow spells.

edit: Or hold your own Shadow Sword. Only your opponent gets a chance to disbelieve and be unaffected by the shadow sword. You can hold your shadow sword. See the spell Spectral Weapon.

[Deophaun]

Problem is, knowing it's an illusion doesn't mean you auto-pass the save, else that would make a ton of illusion spells completely useless. As MMM said:
The problem is, the spells MMM listed don't offer saves. You cannot auto-pass a test that doesn't exist.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The problem is, the spells MMM listed don't offer saves. You cannot auto-pass a test that doesn't exist.Problem is, you can auto-fail saves if you want to, even if you know what a spell does. And there's nothing forcing you to disbelieve the spells you cast. After all, you know it will affect you if you believe it does. I don't see why that would force you to not believe in it.

[Florian]

PF actually advanced that whole topic out of necessity. I think the final rulings here can be properly back-ported to 3.5 and 3.P. It will all depend on whether or not the spell has the (Shadow) descriptor and comes equipped with a quasi-real element to it. The example ruling here is based on a Bard using a Shadow-type spell to create a temporary bridge, and while he, as the primary caster, knows that it is an illusion, he also knows that it is quasi-real and he can use the bridge to cross the chasm be trusting in the (shadow) elements of it, by voluntarily failing the WILL save. That is, overall, a pretty sound ruling.

[Deophaun]

Problem is, you can auto-fail saves if you want to, even if you know what a spell does. And there's nothing forcing you to disbelieve the spells you cast. After all, you know it will affect you if you believe it does. I don't see why that would force you to not believe in it.
The problem is, it is explicitly spelled out as to what passing an illusion save is. It's not simply not believing it. It's knowing that it's fake. It's knowing something is amiss.

In other words, you can fail a save for an illusion save you cast, you just need to be mind raped after casting it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The problem is, it is explicitly spelled out as to what passing an illusion save is. It's not simply not believing it. It's knowing that it's fake. It's knowing something is amiss.

In other words, you can fail a save for an illusion save you cast, you just need to be mind raped after casting it.If you know it's a placebo but believing in it makes it work anyway, is it really any less effective than if it wasn't a placebo? If it works because you believe it works and you know this, then believing it and knowing it might as well be the same for all the difference it has.

[Florian]

The problem is, it is explicitly spelled out as to what passing an illusion save is. It's not simply not believing it. It's knowing that it's fake. It's knowing something is amiss.

In other words, you can fail a save for an illusion save you cast, you just need to be mind raped after casting it.

Yes, but as I said, that handles everything, but not the (Shadow) sub school.

[magicalmagicman]

The point of being able to intentionally fail saving throws is so that you can be fully affected by spells if you want to be. Anyone who says you can't fail saving throws of illusion spells you cast are simply crybaby scrubs screaming munchkin which is a red flag and you should not be playing with such a person, ever.

It is pointless to debate about this as the crybaby scrubs will never stop intentionally misread RAW solely to kill spellcasters by telling them they just fell through a shadow bridge they just created.

[AMFV]

I get that, i do, so it might be appealing for a sorcerer, but I dunno, you are sacrificing a significant part of your combat ability.


You aren't "sacrificing" anything. You don't lose a single caster level. You're just a wizard/sorcerer/cleric/whatever else, that can do more stuff than they could originally. Basically you're taking a wizard/sorcerer/whatever which is already fairly decent and giving them more tools for basically negligible cost.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't revive old threads (and once it's been pointed out a thread has been necro'd, please don't post in it!)