Need low level gestalt ideas

[Utopia724]

A friend is starting a new level one gestalt campaign. We rolled stats and I got 18, 17, 17, 16, 14, 13 ( I know pretty awesome we did 4d6 drop lowest and rolled 7 stats dropping the lowest of the seven) and we are limited to these books:
Comp adventurer
Comp arcane
Comp champion
Comp divine
Comp mage
Comp psionic
Comp scoundrel
Comp warrior
Magic of Incarnum
Deities and demigods(limited)
Epic level handbook
Expanded psionics
Magic item compendium
Manual of the planes (if any)
Spell compendium(limited)
Tome of battle
Unearthed arcana
Weapons of legacy
BoED (limited)
BoVD (limited)
Phb 1&2

Books with "(limited)"behind them have material that exists but need to be found in campaign rather than open content.

I am open to any and all suggestions and builds are great too I would get to build them from ground up and see how things work for anything I haven't played before.

[Buufreak]

Okay, maybe we can narrow it down a bit. Any idea on a character theme or role you wanna fill?

[Waker]

Your request is really open-ended. Try to give us some idea of what you want to play by telling us: character concepts, level of optimization and if you know what other party members are playing.

[Utopia724]

I have played warblades, druids, sorcerers, wizards, clerics and totemists. With a such a huge list of books there must be builds I haven't tried. Most of the time, I pick one class and try to optimize without dips as my group hates it and thinks it munchkinning. Multiclassing isn't bad but like 3-4 classes max if possible, maybe more since it is gestalt. Also, dual progression PrC's are banned.

[Utopia724]

I don't know what others will be playing but I tend to wait before I truly decide so I wanted to get some ideas of some good builds beforehand.

[Utopia724]

If I end up without any ideas I may just play druid 20// ???/5 MoMF/5 Warshaper/5 MoMF/+5. That's if I end up without a single other good idea since druids are OP and the current DM hates the legal shenannigans I pull playing a druid.

[flappeercraft]

Something interesting you could do is a Monk/Warlock and focus on making it a clawlock build.

Side note: The feat Eldritch Claws is from Dragon Magazine #358 so you would of course need to ask your DM for approval.

If that is not allowed then a Warblade/Wizard could be interesting to play and very powerful albeit it would need quite a bit of bookkeeping to use effectively. I would reccomend eventually taking levels in Abjurant champion for this due to Full Bab, Spellcasting and good abilities that cna be useful regardless of your role.

Duskblade/Wizard could be an interesting kind of Gish character. I would reccomend eventually taking levels in Spellsword at some point which would let you channel 2 spells at once through the Duskblade and Spellsword abilities being used for the same attack (Spellsword channeling makes you store a spell similarly to spell storing and it remains for 8 hours, then you attack with the Duskblade channeling). Also, as per RAW the Duskblade doesn't channel spells from the duskblade list exclusively but any touch spell he knows so that means you could also channel the wizard spells you learn.

A Psychic Warrior/Fighter could be a good Beatstick, you would get Full BAB, D10 HD, Limited Manifesting and Tons of feats. If your DM rules that the bonus feats from Psychic Warrior and Fighter do not stack (I'm not sure if they would stack by Gestalt rules but debatably) then I would reccomend replacing Fighter with Warblade.

[Gildedragon]

May I suggest Binder//Crusader to go into KoSS//Crusader

Another possibility

Totemist//Spirit Shaman

[Utopia724]

We are restricted from evil alignment so warlock/monk is out of the question but i may try it sometime

[Gildedragon]

We are restricted from evil alignment so warlock/monk is out of the question but i may try it sometime

Hellbred use the Evil Exception to get into that

[Buufreak]

Hellbred use the Evil Exception to get into that

Yup, because FC2 is totally on his list of books.

I'm trying to think of something to expand on your druid side, but without FoE, I'm a bit at a loss.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't see anything sneaky or psionic on the list of what you've played. Maybe go Psion//Rogue into Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) (Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) variant for nonevil) or similar. Get Mind Cripple and use TWF to deal 2 Int damage per sneak attack, which can disable most bruiser opponents in a round or two of full attacks and takes down animals in a single hit. Get mostly buffs and utility powers, but pick a few offensive powers here and there (Energy Ray and/or Crystal Shard, both can sneak attack).

Maybe include Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) (with Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) as well) in that build to boost your BAB. A Spellthief dip allows you to use wands of any Wizard spells of the schools a Spellthief has access to, namely Wraithstrike, and per the Rules Compendium a wand has the same activation time as the spell it contains.


Would you be interested in playing an arcane gish? Just combining Fighter or Paladin or Warblade or Crusader with Wizard or Sorcerer makes an extremely viable self-buffing melee combatant. Pick up Abjurant Champion and maybe a few Paragnostic Apostle for Spatial Awareness and Mind Over Matter, dip Sacred Exorcist so you can use divine feats like Travel Devotion and Law Devotion, get two or four levels of Divine Oracle (and get the feat prerequisite from the Frog God's Fane in CS without spending a feat on it), etc.


Maybe go with a Wis-SAD Soulbow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2). I'd go something like Swordsage 20// Fast Movement Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1/ Soulknife 4/ Soulbow 10/ whatever 5, with TWF and get Zen Archer if Wis > Dex. You miss out on the must-have Woodland Archer feat without Races of the Wild, but you can still put Lucky on the Mind Arrows to get one reroll on every missed shot. Pick maneuvers and stances for defense and utility, mostly Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw, especially the Mongoose boosts for extra attacks. The only downside to this is that Soulbow doesn't come online until 6th level, and you're starting at 1st.


It looks like you're fond of playing spellcasters, so how about an alternative to the sneaky/psionic approach. A Beguiler//Psion would be Int-SAD, gets tons of skill points, and you could use Beguiler spells for utility and situational challenges, and pick Psion powers that fill in what the Beguiler list lacks such as direct damage and choice effects that are unique to psionics such as Time Hop. I would include a single level of Mindbender at 6th, in place of a Beguiler level to put your subsequent Advanced Learning spells one level higher, but otherwise stick with Beguiler for nineteen levels. Psion doesn't have a lot of full-manifesting prestige class options, it's possible to use Paragnostic Apostle and a few other caster prestige classes with it, and Anarchic Initiate could also work if that's what you're into, but don't ever lose any spellcasting/manifesting levels with this build. Be sure to check the Expanded Classes Part Two (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) and Part Three (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) articles, since most of the best psionic content can't be found in any published book (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi).


Gestalt games are perfect for trying out a unique/interesting prestige class that wouldn't be viable otherwise. For example, Enlightened Spirit in CM isn't viable at all in a normal game, but on a gestalt character it can be taken with Warlock levels since everything it grants is a unique feature separate from anything the Warlock levels give, so it will all stack. It gives +d6 damage to Eldritch Blast, without progressing its caster level or your effective Warlock level for EB damage. It gives specific invocations, again without progressing your caster level or your effective Warlock level for invocation progression. If you start taking it at 6th level, you'll hit Warlock 10 with Enlightened Spirit 5, get a greater shape invocation from Enlightened Spirit at that level, and thus be able to take a greater invocation as your new Warlock invocation learned at the same level. So instead of learning the usual three invocations of each category from Warlock, you'll have three least or lower, two lesser or lower, four greater or lower, and three dark or lower invocations from Warlock. I would take a full BAB and/or high skill points class for the first five levels, such as (Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), Mystic) Ranger, or Paladin of Freedom, or Swordsage, or (Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue)) Rogue, etc.

[Krazzman]

I am just giving class advice what I would like to play since I haven't played 3.5 in ages and you have more sources available than I ever had.

Totemist//Barbarian
Incarnate//Ranger, maybe the arcane one.
Swordsage//duskblade
Warlock//Cleric
Warblade//Cleric
Duskblade//Rogue

[Deeds]

You could build a character around the Complete Adventurer spell Wraithstrike. It's a 2nd level arcane spell that makes your attacks touch attacks for the duration of the spell. Low optimization would be to cast it and power attack. Higher optimization would be to Persist Spell Wraithstrike for all day touch attacks.

Bard // Marshall is simple but effective for buffing your allies. Motivate dexterity gives your team a free Improved Initiative.

Rogue // Paladin would ensure you don't have a dump stat.

[Utopia724]

That persistent wraithstrike sounds good. I could do a paladin//sorcerer and dmm persist especially since a paladins turning isn't worth anything at half progression for turn checks.

[Utopia724]

I haven't played many sneaky characters since a couple people in our group favor them. I know how they work and I've long to do one since I've had a long time to figure out skill tricks.

I never added but I have played several psions and I do like gishes but the only time I did one was a DMPC in my own game so I didnt count him since he mostly buffed himself and a couple allies but he was really not optimized because I didn't want the players to feel like my character was hogging the glory which he could have done.

[Utopia724]

I like the ideas Krazzman but most of those are a little wonky on stat dependence especially a rogue//paladin, just saying.

[Grod_The_Giant]

We are restricted from evil alignment so warlock/monk is out of the question but i may try it sometime
Hmm? Warlocks have no alignment restrictions. The "Alignment" section even discusses the possibility of good Warlocks, and there's an entire PrC devoted to the concept. In which case I kind of like the idea of a Scout//Warlock. (Improved) Skirmish + Eldritch Blast combine quite nicely to get your damage going, and Warlocks have a surprising number of invocations that are great for scouting. It won't be the strongest, perhaps*, but it'll be solid and flavorful.



*Unless you dip Cleric or something for Travel Devotion and get Eldritch Glaive. Then your damage will start getting quite alarming.

[Utopia724]

Just looked in complete arcane and there may be some confusion but in the game rule info they are restricted to any chaotic or evil. That's why I said I couldn't do a warlock monk since monk requires lawful alignment and I would be forced to be chaotic if I played a watlock. Any nonlawful class would be fine to mix with warlock.

[Utopia724]

Or at least a class not requiring lawful alignment

[Krazzman]

I like the ideas Krazzman but most of those are a little wonky on stat dependence especially a rogue//paladin, just saying.

Rogue is just in there for Skillpoints and Sneak Attack. Nothing else. If you need both Full BaB and more Skill points: Ranger, if you only need Skill points, Rogue. Especially on a Changeling.

Warlocks don't need any stats, Totemist and Barbarians have similar need for stats and are even mentioned for being Multiclass friendly.

Swordsage//Duskblade also doesn't really have MADness. You can focus more on Maneuvers and just use a few DMG spells and focus on utility instead, but it is there for more returns for higher INT as well as Full Bab. Swordsage is for Skills and Maneuver/Stances focused on things Duskblade can't achieve as easily.

[Utopia724]

content://media/external/file/10038

Here is a screenshot

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Paladin//Sorcerer doesn't really work for persisting spells because Divine Metamagic only works on divine spells since the Complete Divine Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata). I would go Paladin 2/ Crusader 18// Sorcerer X/ Spellcasting PrCs instead, just cast Wraithstrike normally or you could even use (Lesser Rod of) Extend Spell with it without increasing the casting time, since the rules on spontaneous spells with metamagic feats only applies to spells with a casting time of a standard action or longer.

[Utopia724]

Rogues do good with high dex to skills, swordsages use wis for ac, warlocks use charisma for invocations plus incarnates use int for dc though those can be avoided if need be. I admit most of these issues can be solved when you look at that stat block I rolled just wanted to let you know most couldn't deal with MAD characters

[Utopia724]

Gotcha just was looking for a way to get persistent wraithstrike without needing a lvl 8 slot besides having an insane casting stat (roughly 24-26 to get the bonus slot) which is doable but unlikely with out a cloak/item of charisma

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Warlocks really don't need Charisma. Most invocations are stat-independent and Eldritch Blast doesn't add Charisma to damage.

That said, what about Warlock/Hellfire Warlock//Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal? Pick Naberius as your Patron Vestige to offset the Con damage and be king of versatile at-will powers

[DrMotives]

Just looked in complete arcane and there may be some confusion but in the game rule info they are restricted to any chaotic or evil. That's why I said I couldn't do a warlock monk since monk requires lawful alignment and I would be forced to be chaotic if I played a watlock. Any nonlawful class would be fine to mix with warlock.

No it doesn't, it says they are often those alignments. Often doesn't mean the same as always. And as Grod says, there's an entire class based around the idea of good warlock. A LN or LG warlock // monk is completely RAW & RAI ok.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No it doesn't, it says they are often those alignments. Often doesn't mean the same as always. And as Grod says, there's an entire class based around the idea of good warlock. A LN or LG warlock // monk is completely RAW & RAI ok.

Complete Arcane page 7, top left under the header "Game Rule Information" shows the following RAW:
Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic.

Warlocks cannot be LG, LN, NG, or NN alignment by RAW.

[Utopia724]

KoSS is out since I don't have access to tome of magic. I wasn't saying that warlocks are always chaotic evil (I have never been one to only play one alignment), they can be lawful and they can good but they have to be choatic or evil. I am betting that good aligned warlock class is reliant on the pc being chaotic good which is a very fun alignment with a tricksters mindset which isn't an issue unless you try to mix samurai or monk with it.

[DrMotives]

Complete Arcane page 7, top left under the header "Game Rule Information" shows the following RAW:
Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic.

Warlocks cannot be LG, LN, NG, or NN alignment by RAW.

Huh. Because page 6 says the opposite.
"Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are both). The powers they serve can be cruel, capricious, and wild, unbound by conventional views of right and wrong. However, even warlocks who derive their powers from the most sinister of patrons have been known to turn the black powers at their command against evil. A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil."

[Utopia724]

Huh. Because page 6 says the opposite.
"Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are both). The powers they serve can be cruel, capricious, and wild, unbound by conventional views of right and wrong. However, even warlocks who derive their powers from the most sinister of patrons have been known to turn the black powers at their command against evil. A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil."

Which doesn't dispute it just that not all are evil, chaotic or both just that they are all some form of those alignments even if they are lawful evil, chaotic good or some neutral version.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Huh. Because page 6 says the opposite.
"Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are both). The powers they serve can be cruel, capricious, and wild, unbound by conventional views of right and wrong. However, even warlocks who derive their powers from the most sinister of patrons have been known to turn the black powers at their command against evil. A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil."

Page 6 is flavor text, page 7 is game rules.

[Demidos]

Okay, I have a fun idea for you...

The greatest thief that ever lived --

Either Beguiler//Paladin of Freedom for a beefier, tanky build, or Beguiler//Warlock for a sneakier, more mystical build.

The challenge: Make a build with these that doesn't deal damage, but can still both contribute in combat (since it sucks to have a party mate that doesn't interact in combat) and can live up to his title as the greatest thief in the land.

[Utopia724]

If I can work with my dm to get a little more slack on tge book of exalted deeds I could to a sneaky apostle of peace build, the PrC that requires vow of nonviolence and vow of peace which in turn each require sacred vow. A bit feat heavy but possible.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If I can work with my dm to get a little more slack on tge book of exalted deeds I could to a sneaky apostle of peace build, the PrC that requires vow of nonviolence and vow of peace which in turn each require sacred vow. A bit feat heavy but possible.

In that case, Beguiler is the perfect class to gestalt with that. There are only a few offensive spells on the Beguiler list that deal normal damage, the rest deal nonlethal damage or they're illusions or enchantments. You'll fully benefit from Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence, though your party may not like the limits it puts on them. As long as someone in your party rolls something that's in a position of authority with the local government or religious authority and could give defeated opponents a 'trial' and a just execution on the spot, there isn't really any drawback for the rest of the party if you go that route.

[Utopia724]

In that case, Beguiler is the perfect class to gestalt with that. There are only a few offensive spells on the Beguiler list that deal normal damage, the rest deal nonlethal damage or they're illusions or enchantments. You'll fully benefit from Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence, though your party may not like the limits it puts on them. As long as someone in your party rolls something that's in a position of authority with the local government or religious authority and could give defeated opponents a 'trial' and a just execution on the spot, there isn't really any drawback for the rest of the party if you go that route.

Our group is regularly cooperative and tend to stay on the lawful side of things.

[rel]

crusader / cleric?
strong right off the bat and has the possibility of action economy breaking from ruby knight windicator at some point down the line

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Our group is regularly cooperative and tend to stay on the lawful side of things.

Regardless, Vow of Peace/Nonviolence actually prevents your party members from finishing off defeated opponents, or leaving them to die if they're unconscious with negative hp. Your character will be required to make sure the fallen opponents are rescued, arrested, and brought to justice according to the local laws. Thus having someone who can judge them guilty on the spot and justifiably execute them in accordance with local laws gets around those limitations.

[Gildedragon]

So gestalt is a good time to try out a subsystem/class you've eyed but never tried before

[Buufreak]

crusader / cleric?
strong right off the bat and has the possibility of action economy breaking from ruby knight windicator at some point down the line

Op states no combo classes, which rkv is.

[rel]

sorry.

Factotum / wizard?
The action economy breaking comes online at level 8 but in the meantime you are still a wizard with skills and a few buffs.

[DMVerdandi]

Warblade//totemist 2/incarnate 18

Tob gets use here, and you have staggering flexibility without necessarily being a vancian spellcaster.
All the soulmelds😈

[Utopia724]

I have asked if I can get access to dungeonscape for factotum but its been avoided. I like the warblade//totemist/incarnate idea as I've never been one to see the appeal of incarnum classes without gestalt as the chassis tend to be kinda trashy. Not bashing on anyone who likes them just explaining I never liked the base format.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I have asked if I can get access to dungeonscape for factotum but its been avoided. I like the warblade//totemist/incarnate idea as I've never been one to see the appeal of incarnum classes without gestalt as the chassis tend to be kinda trashy. Not bashing on anyone who likes them just explaining I never liked the base format.
Sounds pretty fun. For any incarnum multiclass, I strongly suggest trying for a PrC like Ironsoul Forgemaster-- binds unlocked from PrCs and feats apply to any meldshaper class, while those unlocked from base class levels only apply to said base class' melds.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can get access to Dungeonscape, a Dungeoncrasher Fighter could be a fantastic choice. Go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 for half the build, use Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), and Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) class features, and at 20th you can spend that Fighter 10 bonus feat on Weapon Supremacy in PH2.

[Dancingdeath]

My personal favorite is Cloistered Cleric/Warblade or Cloistered Cleric/Fighter. Depends on your preference of extra feats over maneuvers. Full casting with the extra cheese from cloistered variant and regain everything you lose from it from the martial class you gestalt with. It's broken powerful. Even at early levels. And you have immediate access to DMM/Persist cheese from that list of books.

[daremetoidareyo]

If I can work with my dm to get a little more slack on tge book of exalted deeds I could to a sneaky apostle of peace build, the PrC that requires vow of nonviolence and vow of peace which in turn each require sacred vow. A bit feat heavy but possible.

What you really want for this is the Master pickpocket feat from city of stormreach. Apostle of peace pairs super well with feats that make enemies hit each other.

[Morphic tide]

Well, if you are really only going to be low-level, Truenamer actually only becomes non-useful above level 6. Mix with Artificer to be making the items you'll need later on, particularly skill boosters.

More realistically, the typical advice for Gestalt applies in full force. Have just one active build, with the rest being passive bonuses to support it. Personally, in shenanigans-land, given your book access, I'd go with Totemist 2/Incarnate 15/Crusader 3//PsyWar 8/Wilder 7/Warblade 5

The reason for each pick is as follows:

Totemist 2: Totem Bind Girrallon Arms for four Claw attacks with Enhancement bonus without PP investment, Totemist meld list access

Incarnate 15: +2 Soulmeld investement cap, bringing it up to 6 Essentia maximum. 7 for Totem Chakra, so you can have +7 to attack and damage on four Natural Attacks. Also list access.

PsyWar 8: 8 PsyWar powers, two of 3rd level. This includes Psionic healing for 2PP less that Wilder, as well as Vampiric Claws. Also Lion's Charge access and four bonus feats.

Wilder 7: Better PP progression than PsyWar and +3 Wild Surge, which isn't class restricted. +3 ML for PsyWar powers that have augments for hours/ML duration is a nice thing.

Crusader 3: +1 to attack and damage whenever you've taken any damage in the last round. And Devoted Spirit and a bit of manoeuvre progression. And the full-BAB HD.

Warblade 5: 6 known Manoeuvres, Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Aptitude, a bonus feat, full BAB, Int to Reflex saves and crit confirmation and the rather useful Manoeuvre list.

In terms of playstyle, Unarmed Swordsage might work better than Warblade. It depends on if the damage boost applies to Girallon Arms. It'd be less MAD, but you're not exactly needing to worry about that. Mostly, you're using Bestow Power loop to fuel PsyWar and Psycarnum Infusion to cap a Soulmeld in emergencies/whenever you can get away with it. Manoeuvres are a thing that is rather helpful for flexibility and making you last longer without Bestow Power looping. There's a feat that lets you spend PP to refresh a Manoeuvre, Psychic Renewal, which makes the ToB inclusion into a powerhouse by letting you just keep spamming strong Manoeuvres until you run out of PP. Which will never happen if you are paying attention.

Yes, this is a cheese pile, but it's a suboptimal one. It's only using one major trick and is focusing it on a sub-par use.

[Utopia724]

We plan to go epic (hence ELH on the book list) so this will be a pretty longstanding game. I was kinda hoping to find some good single class just ???//??? Maybe a bit of prestiging. My main reason for being against the dips is because my dm is using a training mechanic that could be come a pain, besically i play a warblade/wizard but decide i want to to do rogue/wizard for next level, need to find me a rogue to teach me the basics to get into rogue.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I quite like Ranger//Cleric as a gestalt. It's not as balls-to-the-wall powerful as some of the other builds here, but you're still a tier 1 caster with full bab, all good saves, and 6+int skill points. Furthermore, given the simplicity and generally poor reputation of the Ranger (which is actually fairly good as a passive side in gestalt), it won't set off alarm bells as much as other builds suggested here. And if you want to buff it some, there's a lot of good Ranger ACFs and Cleric prestige classes around.

Duskblade//Beguiler is also another nice combo, as the two classes neatly cover each others weaknesses while using similar stats. Shame about the poor reflex save (rather odd that Beguilers don't have reflex, come to think of it) but you can live with that.