Anger Vs. Outsiders.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Inspired by the Archers Vs. Outsiders (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527996-Archers-vs-outsiders-split-from-unfairly-powerful-monsters), in which it was discussed wheather a Fighter could defeat a Pit Fiend.

So I am now presenting a new challenge. Can a Lvl. 20 Barbarian defeat Pit Fiend/Planetar?

The Barabarian will have to fight both of them separately, and use the same build for both, resources will be reset between fights. SRD only material for the Barabarian. The majority of the Barbarian's levels must be in Barbarian.

The scenario is as follows; Barbarian accidentally triggered a trap that teleported her into another room. Inside the new room is an outsider that has been bound and ordered to kill any creature in the room. As a result, neither get the drop on the other or get a chance to prepare for combat with the other (Though both a ready for general combat). The room in question is circular and 200 ft in radius. The only exit is on the ceiling next to the wall, it is 50 ft off the ground. There is a 50 foot latter on the opposite end of the room from the exit. The outsider will not pursue if the barbarian leaves.

EDIT: Scenario Two; A powerful villian is currently soaking in pool of pure magic. If he remains submerged for 24 hours he will become unstoppable, however he is completely inactive while in the magic pool and for an hour after being removed. The Barbarian wants to interrupt the villain's bath-time, but the villian bound a powerful outsider to guard him. The outsider is ordered to kill anyone who tries to interfere with the ritual, it will not pursue if the Barbarian leaves the room. The Barbarian entered to room by sliding down a fire pole into the room and was unaware of the outsider's presence before doing so. The magic pool is inside a large adamantine tank, and there is a pump on the tank that drains it. It takes 1 minute to drain the tank using the pump. The room in question is a 100 ft by 100 ft square, the tank is inside the far wall with the fire pole and a normal door on the opposite end of the room.

Running is not considered a lose condition, but it is not a victory either.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If the Pit Fiend is allowed to disengage his opponent, he can exploit hit and run tactics (possibly with summons), and that sounds like a losing prospect for the Barbarian.

[Tainted_Scholar]

If the Pit Fiend is allowed to disengage his opponent, he can exploit hit and run tactics (possibly with summons), and that sounds like a losing prospect for the Barbarian.

No, the outsider is bound to the room.

[flappeercraft]

If played properly, the pit fiend could without problem beat the barbarian. Even more so if the barbarian doesn't have flight and or see invisibility.


If the Pit Fiend is allowed to disengage his opponent, he can exploit hit and run tactics (possibly with summons), and that sounds like a losing prospect for the Barbarian.
Doesn't even have to be hit and run, just stay in the air out of the reach of the barbarian and shoot fireballs without risking any damage at all. Have summons keep the barbarian occupied. If the barbarian can fly the Pit Fiend still has Greater Teleport at will as an SLA

[ColorBlindNinja]

If played properly, the pit fiend could without problem beat the barbarian. Even more so if the barbarian doesn't have flight and or see invisibility.

I should hope a level 20 Barbarian has both.


Doesn't even have to be hit and run, just stay in the air out of the reach of the barbarian and shoot fireballs without risking any damage at all. Have summons keep the barbarian occupied. If the barbarian can fly the Pit Fiend still has Greater Teleport at will as an SLA

Greater Teleport does take up the Pit Fiend's Standard Action, and he can only quicken Fireball 3 times a day.

[Jormengand]

I see. This is now a thing we're doing. :smallsigh:

[ColorBlindNinja]

I see. This is now a thing we're doing. :smallsigh:

Want some popcorn? :smalltongue:

[Lans]

I should hope a level 20 Barbarian has both.



Greater Teleport does take up the Pit Fiend's Standard Action, and he can only quicken Fireball 3 times a day.

How fast is the barbarian? The room is a s
200 foot radius so the pit fiend might be able to shoot, teleport to the other side, repeat especially if ice devil's can add terrain in the middle

[Pleh]

I see. This is now a thing we're doing. :smallsigh:

I wonder how mamy iterations before we reach truenamer vs pit fiend

[Tainted_Scholar]

How fast is the barbarian? The room is a s
200 foot radius so the pit fiend might be able to shoot, teleport to the other side, repeat especially if ice devil's can add terrain in the middle

The barbarian gets a plus 10 to her base speed from Fast Movement.

[zlefin]

this kidn of test would work better if you DONT announce the conditions of the arena beforehand; otherwise people can optimize to the details of the arena.

[Pleh]

If the Pit Fiend is allowed to disengage his opponent, he can exploit hit and run tactics (possibly with summons), and that sounds like a losing prospect for the Barbarian.


No, the outsider is bound to the room.

Actually, size of the room comes into play. Fiend is bound to "room" but room could still be large enough to effectively disengage as per the strategy.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The barbarian gets a plus 10 to her base speed from Fast Movement.

I think that only counts for land based movement.

Barbarian should have a fly speed 60', I don't think she can charge, but she can move 120' in one round.

[Tainted_Scholar]

this kidn of test would work better if you DONT announce the conditions of the arena beforehand; otherwise people can optimize to the details of the arena.

What if I make a second different arena and say that you have the use the same build for both?

[zlefin]

that would work better; but i'm ont sure what you hope to gain from this thread anyways, as the answers (and disagreements) are largely the same as in the other one.

[Tainted_Scholar]

that would work better; but i'm ont sure what you hope to gain from this thread anyways, as the answers (and disagreements) are largely the same as in the other one.

Barbarian is a different (Better) class than the Fighter, so I was just wondering if a Barbarian could win.

[zlefin]

the difference between barbarian and fighter is small enough that it does not significantly change the outcome of a fight vs either a pit fiend or a planetar. the results are essentially the same as for the fighter.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Barbarian is a different (Better) class than the Fighter, so I was just wondering if a Barbarian could win.

The Barbarian does suffer from a lot of the same problems that the Fighter does.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Even still, I was curious to see if the Barbarian would fair any better.




Also, I'm having trouble coming up with a second Scenario. Any suggestions?

[Jormengand]

I wonder how mamy iterations before we reach truenamer vs pit fiend

I mean, the truenamer can send a pit fiend (or anything else) to kill the pit fiend, and repeat this process until it works, so no real contest there.

[Lans]

Even still, I was curious to see if the Barbarian would fair any better.




Also, I'm having trouble coming up with a second Scenario. Any suggestions?

Cafe match fight takes place in a Starbucks

A platform fight multiple platforms over lava

Labyrinth

[gooddragon1]

I see. This is now a thing we're doing. :smallsigh:

I didn't know this would happen. I swear. I was just curious. Curiosity never hurt anyone. Right?

[Tainted_Scholar]

I edited a second scenario into the OP.

[Beheld]

I guess I should go copy paste all my stuff about how "comparing full attack numbers is not in fact how high level play works" and how being able to beat a crippled as **** Pit Fiend or Planetar denied their most potent abilities isn't meaningful?

[Tainted_Scholar]

I guess I should go copy paste all my stuff about how "comparing full attack numbers is not in fact how high level play works" and how being able to beat a crippled as **** Pit Fiend or Planetar denied their most potent abilities isn't meaningful?

What abilities did I deny the outsiders?

[Beheld]

What abilities did I deny the outsiders?

If you lock them in tiny box you deny them their most important advantage, endless ability to set the enviroment of battle using greater teleport at will in combination with enviroment manipulation to harass and engage only when appropriate.

[Tainted_Scholar]

If you lock them in tiny box you deny them their most important advantage, endless ability to set the enviroment of battle using greater teleport at will in combination with enviroment manipulation to harass and engage only when appropriate.

Oh right, that.

[Eldariel]

If the Barbarian can be mounted and charge with a Spirited Charge-build, they might be able to one-shot. Outside of that, I have a hard time seeing Barbarian victory. I did some Barb math here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11011589&postcount=262) (Barb 12/Fighter 2/Sorc 2/DD 4, though Barb 20 isn't much worse, just comes online later); the Spirited Charge damage should be sufficient to drop a Pit Fiend if it hits, but hitting for enough requires a lot of PA making hitting unreliable, and winning initiative is very hard (and absolutely necessary for victory). Same for the Planetar though with it, its preparation counts for a ton. And again, if the Pit Fiend has undead blocking the way or whatever, you can't reach it and you're SoL. But yeah, Barbarian can at least one-shot and has decent durability but they're still at a disadvantage fighting vs. teleporting summoner stuff and can't really reasonably expect to win initiative, which is their only real shot. Lose on average with a chance at a lucky shot depending on enemy preparation.

EDIT: I guess mounted Barb Archer would have some shot (though it's no better than a Fighter)? I dunno, as long as Spirited Charge remains an option for these challenges you don't strictly need the trip framework saving you some feats and you could dip Ranger 2 for Rapid Shot without needing the feats. And that calculation assumes buffs, something you won't have access to here so your WBL goes down the drain buying those +5 weapons. And since it's Enlarged, finding a Huge mount is a bit trickier than a Large one. Might be better off without Enlarge, frankly, though that does drop a lot of damage (48 Str is +28 damage where 50 is +30, and the size dice on the Lance matter too).


Basically, I don't see the Barb really winning a reasonable amount of the time though at least he has a Will-save and decent one-shot potential even through Regen and DR.