So how good *is* Swiftblade?

[danielxcutter]

I've taken an interest in the PrC lately, and it looks pretty good. Sure, it loses 4 caster levels, but the class features are plentiful, flavorful, and fairly powerful, so it's easy to see why people like it at a glance.

I'd like a more thorough breakdown, though. How good is Swiftblade?

[bekeleven]

It's one of the strongest things you can do that's not a full caster. That said, it's not a full caster.

[Nosta]

I can't say how Good it is based on power though I was a force to Be reckon with. (though when I play'd I was a Gestalt Character)

But I can say the abilities and flavor are really fun and make for cool mental images

one of my very favorite 3.5 prestige classes

[martixy]

Well... it's awesome in gestalt, but remember the 1st commandment: Thou shalt not give up thy caster levels.

4 caster levels is 2 spells levels below a full caster.
Though it works out to full casters having 1 spell level on you for most of Swiftblade's progression.

It's good. But it's not that good. It works ingame if you're not being counted on as the primary caster.

[danielxcutter]

It's one of the strongest things you can do that's not a full caster. That said, it's not a full caster.

Um, I think you missed the "detailed breakdown" note.


I can't say how Good it is based on power though I was a force to Be reckon with. (though when I play'd I was a Gestalt Character)

But I can say the abilities and flavor are really fun and make for cool mental images

one of my very favorite 3.5 prestige classes

A bit better.


Well... it's awesome in gestalt, but remember the 1st commandment: Thou shalt not give up thy caster levels.

4 caster levels is 2 spells levels below a full caster.
Though it works out to full casters having 1 spell level on you for most of Swiftblade's progression.

It's good. But it's not that good. It works ingame if you're not being counted on as the primary caster.

Yeah, not primary caster material(which is true for most gish builds I think).

Also to quote the Gish Handbook:


Losing caster levels is heresy, but swiftblade has an entire heterodox church complex backing it up.

YMMV on that, but if you're not the main arcanist...

[Necroticplague]

On one hand, it requires too much casting for someone for whom casting is a minor side trick to benefit, and thus makes it hard to combine with a non-caster-heavy build that could take most advantage of it's class feature. Additionally, it sacrifices enough spell levels that taking it means losing access to level 9 spells, and all the incredible power those bring. So the kinds of builds that it's best for really require spreading yourself thin, since simple 'martial, splash casting' and 'casting, splash martial' will both have a hard time making good use of it.

On the other, the ability to take an extra standard action every turn is an absolutely massive bonus. Most other sources of this require you to Shapechange yourself into otherwise weak forms, or eat a bunch of LA+RHD.

So, if you've already decided you're gonna waste your potential by spreading yourself a bit thin in a game that encourages specialization, it can grant you a very powerful boon to compensate.

[danielxcutter]

On one hand, it requires too much casting for someone for whom casting is a minor side trick to benefit, and thus makes it hard to combine with a non-caster-heavy build that could take most advantage of it's class feature. Additionally, it sacrifices enough spell levels that taking it means losing access to level 9 spells, and all the incredible power those bring. So the kinds of builds that it's best for really require spreading yourself thin, since simple 'martial, splash casting' and 'casting, splash martial' will both have a hard time making good use of it.

On the other, the ability to take an extra standard action every turn is an absolutely massive bonus. Most other sources of this require you to Shapechange yourself into otherwise weak forms, or eat a bunch of LA+RHD.

So, if you've already decided you're gonna waste your potential by spreading yourself a bit thin in a game that encourages specialization, it can grant you a very powerful boon to compensate.

There are more benefits than that admittingly. It seems like your point is that they're not that good, though.

[Zombulian]

Something to consider about Swiftblade is that if you take it, as has already been pointed out, you are playing a gish. One of the notable aspects of a gish is that you accept a certain portion of your spells will be going towards making you better at hitting things. Swiftblade, while cutting some of your spells, effectively gives you free buffs that don't cost you spells, which you can then use for other things.
It's also worth noting that classes like Bard and the Trickster Spellthief can enter Swiftblade and gain spell like and supernatural abilities far beyond the power of their own native casting.

[danielxcutter]

Something to consider about Swiftblade is that if you take it, as has already been pointed out, you are playing a gish. One of the notable aspects of a gish is that you accept a certain portion of your spells will be going towards making you better at hitting things. Swiftblade, while cutting some of your spells, effectively gives you free buffs that don't cost you spells, which you can then use for other things.
It's also worth noting that classes like Bard and the Trickster Spellthief can enter Swiftblade and gain spell like and supernatural abilities far beyond the power of their own native casting.

Yeah, if you can spare the actions to cast Haste(which is pretty easy; there's a class feature that quickens it automatically for no cost), you get a bunch of extra bonuses. You're gishing, but you gish pretty well I think.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I wonder if there's a good way to use the Trapsmith's first-level Haste to slip into the class without significant investment in a casting class. Bootstrap it up to be cast out of a 3rd-level slot, perhaps.

[Zombulian]

I wonder if there's a good way to use the Trapsmith's first-level Haste to slip into the class without significant investment in a casting class. Bootstrap it up to be cast out of a 3rd-level slot, perhaps.

Dip Chameleon first? Idk.

[Cosi]

It's probably the best Gish that loses caster levels, or at least up there. Obviously you're still better off being a DMM Cleric or some other Persistent Spell abuser if your goal is to use spells to fight, but it's not terrible if you are for some reason opposed to doing that.

[danielxcutter]

It's probably the best Gish that loses caster levels, or at least up there. Obviously you're still better off being a DMM Cleric or some other Persistent Spell abuser if your goal is to use spells to fight, but it's not terrible if you are for some reason opposed to doing that.

I assume you mean from an optimization viewpoint. I can see plenty of reasons not to be a Persistomancer, such as party balance and letting the other players have fun.

[Hiro Quester]

I wonder if there's a good way to use the Trapsmith's first-level Haste to slip into the class without significant investment in a casting class. Bootstrap it up to be cast out of a 3rd-level slot, perhaps.

The swiftblade Handbook includes this:





Speaking from an intent perspective (which I know counts for very little in the optimized forums) the idea is for the swiftblade candidate to use all spell slots (of the level in which haste is gained) to cast haste. The Dungeonscape book did not exist when Brian and I originally created the swiftblade, leaving us completely unaware of the trapsmith prestige class when it was finally released. If we had been aware, the special prerequisite would have read...

Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all spell slots of the level in which haste is gained to exclusively cast haste.

[Cosi]

I assume you mean from an optimization viewpoint. I can see plenty of reasons not to be a Persistomancer, such as party balance and letting the other players have fun.

The only thing that you can meaningfully answer "how good" for is optimization. I'm sure you can imagine circumstances in which a Persistomancer isn't the maximally fun choice, or the maximally pro-social choice, or any number of other things. But you should be able to admit you can also imagine circumstances where it is those things. Those questions are subjective. Power is not, or at least is to a far lesser degree.

[Darrin]

I wonder if there's a good way to use the Trapsmith's first-level Haste to slip into the class without significant investment in a casting class. Bootstrap it up to be cast out of a 3rd-level slot, perhaps.

I think we've got a post somewhere from the original Swiftblade designer that said Trapsmith filling all his 1st-level slots with haste should work. Essentially, "at the first level where you can cast haste, fill all your spell slots with it."

[Gruftzwerg]

I really like the theme of the Swiftblade and think it's a fine class for itself, but...

...imho it's not as strong as one might think.


Imho a PRC value (besides from full caster progression) is defined by it's unique abilities, or the amount of abilities that synergy well and would otherwise be expensive to get (via magic stuff/items).

And let's compare him to full-casters and full-mundane-melees.

He ain't that versatile as a full caster, cause his spell selection will be more fitting towards his melee playstyle. Metamagic costs are heavier, because you did loose spell lvl. You can't compete with full casters. And compared to full optimized melees, you need to be able to dish an immense amount dmg to compete, which involves heavy feat usage (which this build is already short of imho).

If you would invest into charge, you still lack pounce. Getting Pounce into the build would weaken your casting even more. Without pounce, investing into charge multipliers is not recommended imho.
So where will this build get the dmg to play Rocket-Tag?


The sole point where I see him strong is as some kind of tank-gish. But the higher the lvls get, the more unreliable tank-type builds become.

but.. If you play on a low optimization lvl, this prc brings enough power of its own. That's the other side again^^. If your intention is to play a gish, who is relying on several short time buffs, this build helps a lot due to the timestop mechanism.

But other than that, there are a lot more powerful options than Swiftbade as gish.
Take a clawlock to compare: he will go for a ubercharger build and dish insane dmg values, while coming with several 24h buffs. He doesn't need to waste actions for buffing up and can start to kill several enemies in the first round.

[dude123nice]

Doesn't swiftblade level 10 give you access to a Time Stop SLA, that is activated by sacrificing spell slots, the higher the slot the better? Because in that case i would think that, combined with two standard actions per turn, a swiftblade with 8th level spells has the strongest time stop ability in the game.

[Snowbluff]

Doesn't swiftblade level 10 give you access to a Time Stop SLA, that is activated by sacrificing spell slots, the higher the slot the better? Because in that case i would think that, combined with two standard actions per turn, a swiftblade with 8th level spells has the strongest time stop ability in the game.

Indeed they do. When they say not to lose caster levels, they usually aim for getting at least 1 ninth level spell, and swiftblade gets that. Not to mention is can be entered rather easily without a dip.

[dude123nice]

Indeed they do. When they say not to lose caster levels, they usually aim for getting at least 1 ninth level spell, and swiftblade gets that. Not to mention is can be entered rather easily without a dip.

And isn't Time Stop considered to be one of the best 9th level spells? Combine an supercharged Time Stop with practiced spellcaster and it really doesn't feel like you are losing that much compared to full spellcasters.

[Snowbluff]

And isn't Time Stop considered to be one of the best 9th level spells? Combine an supercharged Time Stop with practiced spellcaster and it really doesn't feel like you are losing that much compared to full spellcasters.

It's up there. Ice Assassin, Wish, Shapechange, and Miracle are better. However if you have Simulacrum I don't think you care.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho people overvalue Timestop (for Swiftblades). Imho the sole purpose of it in this build is only for buffing up, initiate & escape. But it doesn't help your crippled dmg (compared to optimized mundane melee/ubercharger and to full casters), besides from the getting some buffs.

It would help a tank build, but the lvl at where it starts to work and would shine, tank builds become almost useless due to the Rocket Tag problem.

Imho it feels like a Jake of all Trades and a Master of None. And even that is better covered by Bards and Chameleons than by a Swiftblade.

[Cosi]

Using time stop to buff yourself sounds good, until you realize that you could have just been an Incantatrix and had those buffs all day without loosing any caster levels. Using time stop offensively with Delay Spell is passable, but Swiftblade is a pretty crap chassis for it.

[Snowbluff]

If you need persist, you have most of the spelldancer requirement.

Imho people overvalue Timestop (for Swiftblades). Imho the sole purpose of it in this build is only for buffing up, initiate & escape. But it doesn't help your crippled dmg (compared to optimized mundane melee/ubercharger and to full casters), besides from the getting some buffs.

It would help a tank build, but the lvl at where it starts to work and would shine, tank builds become almost useless due to the Rocket Tag problem.

Imho it feels like a Jake of all Trades and a Master of None. And even that is better covered by Bards and Chameleons than by a Swiftblade.


Well it's quite possible to have 9th level spells and 9 levels in swiftbalde for perpetual options, which is a level of actions economy otherwise difficult to achieve. On top of that, it's a gish class, so arcane strike and power attack are applicable.

Not to mention that you're an arcane caster, so you have Wraith Strike, obviating the need for shock trooper to cancel the PA penalty, and you won't need to charge when you have a free action each turn. Sure, you lose a damage to an ubercharger, in exchange for being useful for anything other than fighting enemies easily killed anyway, and you aren't a glass cannon while doing it.

What you mean to say is that it's a master of all.:smallamused:

[Endarire]

A Loredrake Kobold with extra caster levels could get level 9 spells by 20 using Swiftblade10, but that's against the spirit of this.

Swiftblade is an interesting idea that should only lose 1 or 2 caster levels over 10 levels instead of 4.

[Cosi]

No casting PrC should cost any caster levels. It's a stupid cost that is inherently unbalanced, especially when you can just be an Incantatrix, a Dweomerkeeper, or a Planar Shepherd. The game is better if you treat PrCs as extra class features for casters.


If you need persist, you have most of the spelldancer requirement.

And you just lost a bunch of caster levels. The point is not that you need persist. The point is that persist is better for buffing than time stop, and you gave up too many caster levels to be a good time stop blaster.


Well it's quite possible to have 9th level spells and 9 levels in swiftbalde for perpetual options, which is a level of actions economy otherwise difficult to achieve. On top of that, it's a gish class, so arcane strike and power attack are applicable.

Most of the time arcane spellsurge + Invisible Spell will be roughly as good action economy and lets you be an Incantatrix (admittedly, only for Sorcerers). Or just be able to cast shapechange earlier and pick up any of a dozen extra action abilities. Or Primal Scholar + celerity. None of those cost any caster levels.

The synergy of Arcane Strike and having a BAB is kind of meaningless compared to the synergy of Arcane Strike and being polymorphed into e.g. an Octopus to make eight or more attacks per round, on top of whatever else you get from buffs. You might get a marginally bigger to hit bonus from more BAB, but if you're missing you're doing it wrong.

[ManicOppressive]

Entering Swiftblade for a single level before 10 on a Sublime Chord build and then taking two more after 10 gives you Swiftblade 3 without costing any meaningful casting ability.

If you can get Haste on a Duskblade (either via Extra Spell, Arcane Disciple: Celerity, Trapsmith, or a billion other ways) Duskblade/Swiftblade is really fun.

[Hiro Quester]

The question is whether swiftblade is fun to play, not whether it’s the most Uber-powerful character you could play.

The answer from those I asked who have played one seems to be yes.

You are not quite as versatile as a full caster. And you are not able to deal quite as much damage as a specialized damage dealer.

But you are far more versatile than a typical melee character. And less squishy than a typical caster.

And playing a character with some fun abilities to play around with.

And even if you don’t get ninth level spells, you get a class ability that’s better than one of the best ninth level spells (better because you can choose exactly how long your time-stop will last). And you can get it a bit earlier, at 16th level.

You do have to invest in damage-dealing, keeping strength up high enough to be able to do damage. But that’s not impossible to buff in other ways too, even if you don’t deal the most damage from strength alone. I personally favor sorcerer (or even bard/sublime chord casting and snowflake battledance) for cha synergy— there are lots of items to help milk a good charisma for AC, attack bonuses and damage bonuses (thunderlance weapon, slippers of battledancing, gauntlets of heartfelt blows, and bard’s sirine’s grace spell). So you don’t have to be super -MAD. (Cha>dex>con>str>int>wis perhaps?)

Plus swiftblade seems like it also affords some excellent role-playing opportunities. I always wanted to play one as a speed-freak junkie, jonesing for a speed high, getting jittery and annoyed when out of speed. Always “act first think later”, impatient to get going and do stuff. (The time stop ability is crucial for when you rush headlong into a situation you did not fully prepare for.)

Being able to both cast spells and mix it up in melee has always been my optimal play-style (it’s why I’m playing a kung-fu Druid right now.)

So swiftblade has always been high on my list of characters I want to play. I have been saying that I’m going to play one soon for a while, but my current group favors book-limited games that don’t support it ( and I like playing with these friends).

[danielxcutter]

-snip-

Honestly this is the best answer so far. Great job.

Yes you can sig this.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you need persist, you have most of the spelldancer requirement.



Well it's quite possible to have 9th level spells and 9 levels in swiftbalde for perpetual options, which is a level of actions economy otherwise difficult to achieve. On top of that, it's a gish class, so arcane strike and power attack are applicable.

Not to mention that you're an arcane caster, so you have Wraith Strike, obviating the need for shock trooper to cancel the PA penalty, and you won't need to charge when you have a free action each turn. Sure, you lose a damage to an ubercharger, in exchange for being useful for anything other than fighting enemies easily killed anyway, and you aren't a glass cannon while doing it.

What you mean to say is that it's a master of all.:smallamused:

It looks good on paper, but if you further apply real game scenarios, it doesn't work out that way imho.

The action economy is needed cause you didn't focus on persisting in the first place. Sure, you can choose it to either cast a spell each turn in addition to a full attack or use it for an extra attack.

Another problem is the spell known/prepared limitation. Swiftblade as other gishes focus mostly on melee buffing spells. You are much less likely to have the right utility tools at hand, compared to a regular caster. Further you are limited to either increase DC and increase your chance to overcome SR to a full caster, cause you invest more into melee stuff (weapon/armor enchantments and combat stuff).
Imho a gish ain't that flexible as most would like it to be. As said, it looks good on paper, but the Master of All is a myth imho.

Wraith Strike + (just only) PA ain't enough. You need to invest into charge multiplier or it ain't worth it. The extra attack you get ain't worth it. Others with full BAB & extra attacks (frenzy, haste, flurry or whatsoever..) have more attacks than a swiftblade (unless polymorped into something with dozen attacks, but a full caster is almost as good at this as a swiftblade).

And I even doubt that the swiftblade has "really" more survivability. If you don't drop enemies in the first round (maybe even before they get their first action/turn) you'll eat more dmg. A ubercharger will just pounce into a bunch of enemies and will drop everything he can "hit" from there. Possibly killing all enemies in his range and lessen the chance of being full attacked or attacked at all. Imho that's also some kind of survivability where the Swiftblade will fall short off. When he gets his cool stuff, others have long started to play Rocket Tag. And the Swiftblade is just running after them. Sure, it might look cool to buff up and imagine all the visuals incl. Haste/TimeStop, but in the end the results ain't good enough.

From a fluff perspective, a really cool and "good" prc.
But in terms of power:"move along, nothing important to see here".


You wants to be a king of extra actions? Go for planar shepherd as others pointed out and go for the time wombo combo where you get 10turns while others only get to make a single turn. Now you can break action economy for real.

No, I really just wanted to say it as said: It's a master of none. Sry for that, but just mho ;)

[Hiro Quester]

Honestly this is the best answer so far. Great job.


Thanks. I have been thinking about this PrC for a few years, and trying to find good ways to justify it to myself.

It might not be the best gish out there, but it looks like a very fun gish, nonetheless.

And I am so going to sig that response. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

And you just lost a bunch of caster levels. The point is not that you need persist. The point is that persist is better for buffing than time stop, and you gave up too many caster levels to be a good time stop blaster.



Most of the time arcane spellsurge + Invisible Spell will be roughly as good action economy and lets you be an Incantatrix (admittedly, only for Sorcerers). Or just be able to cast shapechange earlier and pick up any of a dozen extra action abilities. Or Primal Scholar + celerity. None of those cost any caster levels.

The synergy of Arcane Strike and having a BAB is kind of meaningless compared to the synergy of Arcane Strike and being polymorphed into e.g. an Octopus to make eight or more attacks per round, on top of whatever else you get from buffs. You might get a marginally bigger to hit bonus from more BAB, but if you're missing you're doing it wrong.
Yeah so shapechange for extra actions on top of having an Ex extra action.

Yeah so cast celerity as your swift action on top of having the extra action.

Yeah so Polymorph, Power Attack, and Arcane Strike all. Or better yet, use your Polymorph, become a Hydra, and use all of your heads as a Standard Action twice with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Swift Surge +2d6, plus other buffs... (This is an especially OFFENSIVE argument you're making here, considering what I was saying was a response to someone saying a gish class can't be used to do damage).

It's frankly wrong to claim losing 3 caster levels is an issue. 4 is a problem, as that will ACTUALLY deny you game breaking potential, except Simulacrum. Simulcra only take a 7th level spell to make, and be used to emulate any spell anyway, so the benefit of having any other ninths when you're going full OP doesn't matter, because CL 13 already wins you the game. And again, the benefits of Incantatrix are pretty swell, but as far as Metamagic Effect goes, that's a 3 level dip in Incant that will fit in a Swiftblade build, or a One level Dip in Spelldancer. You won't be Mailman, but that's a different dedicated build entirely. Both a swiftblade and Incantatrix can slaughter a regular foe perfectly fine, and both can cast perfectly fine, so to say Swiftblade isn't powerful is patently false.

[Cosi]

Yeah so shapechange for extra actions on top of having an Ex extra action.

Yeah so cast celerity as your swift action on top of having the extra action.

Or, uh, get other class features? Like, yeah, those stack. But the point is that you can get extra actions and also a better PrC.


Yeah so Polymorph, Power Attack, and Arcane Strike all. Or better yet, use your Polymorph, become a Hydra, and use all of your heads as a Standard Action twice with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Swift Surge +2d6, plus other buffs... (This is an especially OFFENSIVE argument you're making here, considering what I was saying was a response to someone saying a gish class can't be used to do damage).

Again, polymorph + Arcane Strike is a massively lower cost than Swiftblade. Yes, you can get really big numbers this way. Cool. Those numbers are, like, super big. But the difference between one and two thousand is not really worth a caster level, let alone three.


It's frankly wrong to claim losing 3 caster levels is an issue.

Having casting worse than your cohort is an issue. Looking at this as if the only thing that matters is 20th is wrong. You are behind for most of the game, and "hey, I've got this extra action" is kind of a bad deal when the other guy has shapechange and also is an Incantatrix.


Swiftblade isn't powerful is patently false.

Everything you think is awesome about Swiftblade you can get way cheaper from just casting spells, which you are better at doing if you are not a Swiftblade. This is not complicated.

[Snowbluff]

You wants to be a king of extra actions? Go for planar shepherd as others pointed out and go for the time wombo combo where you get 10turns while others only get to make a single turn. Now you can break action economy for real.

No, I really just wanted to say it as said: It's a master of none. Sry for that, but just mho ;)
Well, wizards can't be druids, and if we're comparing Swiftblade to Planar Shepard, then we're comparing it to one of the most powerful classe,s using cheese no less, then it's strong. :smalltongue:

Also I will return the winky face. MHO it's a good use of it. ;)


Or, uh, get other class features? Like, yeah, those stack. But the point is that you can get extra actions and also a better PrC. NO you can't. That's level 15. If you're going to hold up a couple of levels and say a Swiftblade cannot get ninths, I'll hold up level 15 and point out that you don't have then either. :l


Again, polymorph + Arcane Strike is a massively lower cost than Swiftblade. Yes, you can get really big numbers this way. Cool. Those numbers are, like, super big. But the difference between one and two thousand is not really worth a caster level, let alone three. Uh, but that's the case with Incantatrix. THIS IS THE POINT I MADE when I said both would utterly destroy their targets when played correctly.


Having casting worse than your cohort is an issue. Prove it. Ice Assassin is considered a power 9th level spell for the same things Simulacrum does. 9th ain't nothing but tricks at that point.


Looking at this as if the only thing that matters is 20th is wrong. You are behind for most of the game, and "hey, I've got this extra action" is kind of a bad deal when the other guy has shapechange and also is an Incantatrix. Level 15 the swift blade effectively quickens all of their spells. There's only a few levels until 20 and a swiftblade has Shapechange too. So it hasn't actually cost you 9ths overall. They do have *A* 9th level spell if they want to take it, and they do have *ALL* of the spells in a similiar manner to Cleric casting Gate.


Everything you think is awesome about Swiftblade you can get way cheaper from just casting spells, which you are better at doing if you are not a Swiftblade. This is not complicated.
Casting + Class Feature. They don't exist in a vacuum any more than the Incantatrix does. Swiftblade is a powerful gish, that also can do powerful casting, by using a strong action economy (effectively quicken every spell) as opposed to a strong metamagic economy.

It's difficult. Please stop holding the wool over your own eyes, copying an argument and using what is admittedly one of the most powerful caster class in the game, "Swiftblade is garbage because it's not instant win Mailman," rather than whether or not it's powerful. Caster levels mean something very specific when people say not to lose them, but this old lesson we have held dear before 3.5 killed itself isn't entirely accurate. We have all of the power we could ever need in 13 levels due to simulacrum. If you're making a gish build, and you want Time Stop over Shapechange (it's a preference), you have the option to take the 10th level, and you would have lost nothing.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3rtyerfHZ1qir45xo1_500.gif

[Cosi]

NO you can't. That's level 15. If you're going to hold up a couple of levels and say a Swiftblade cannot get ninths, I'll hold up level 15 and point out that you don't have then either. :l

At 15th level the Sorcerer/Incantatrix has arcane spellsurge (actually, he has it at 14th). Oh, and he can take e.g. Shadowcraft Mage as well. And he actually gets 7th level spells, whereas you're still on 6ths. This comparison looks super bad for you, because Swiftblade is actually not a good deal.


Uh, but that's the case with Incantatrix. THIS IS THE POINT I MADE when I said both would utterly destroy their targets when played correctly.

Do you not see the difference between paying a feat and a 4th level slot for Arcane Strike and polymorph versus two feats, nine PrC levels, and three caster levels?


Prove it. Ice Assassin is considered a power 9th level spell for the same things Simulacrum does. 9th ain't nothing but tricks at that point.

... do you not know the difference between ice assassin and simulacrum? ice assassin is nuts because it's a zero effort infinite loop. The fact that simulacrum is also good doesn't really rate here. You can win the game at 11th with planar binding. Doesn't make shapechange worthless. If you want to argue about how you can cheese the game, why are you even restraining yourself to spells? Candles of Invocation can be bought with gold, which you still have even if you light all your caster levels on fire. Clearly, Commoners are just as good as Wizards on that basis.


"Swiftblade is garbage because it's not instant win Mailman," rather than whether or not it's powerful.

Did I say it was garbage? No. I said there's nothing the class does you can't do better somewhere else, and it cripples your casting to boot. I'm sure you can make a powerful Swiftblade. But you're always leaving power on the table, because you can get all the things you're crowing about without losing caster levels.


If you're making a gish build, and you want Time Stop over Shapechange (it's a preference), you have the option to take the 10th level, and you would have lost nothing.

I mean, I guess you can want whatever you want, but acting like time stop versus shapechange is remotely close is admitting you have no idea how any of this works and are basically just Markov Chaining arrogance and incredulity in an effort to prop up your pet class. shapechange is probably the flat best thing you can do with 9th level spell slots. time stop is a third tier option at best, because it makes you win one fight instead of making you win the game.

Go back to whining about how you don't understand why the game has levels.

[Snowbluff]

At 15th level the Sorcerer/Incantatrix has arcane spellsurge (actually, he has it at 14th). Oh, and he can take e.g. Shadowcraft Mage as well. And he actually gets 7th level spells, whereas you're still on 6ths. This comparison looks super bad for you, because Swiftblade is actually not a good deal. Well, the Swiftblade can take Wizard6/Swiftblade9/ShadowcraftMage5. I wouldn't want to but there are class levels there. .-.

At 15th level, having the extra action is more than having just spellsurge, since your swift action is still free to cast actually quickened spells or spellsurged spells when you get it.



Do you not see the difference between paying a feat and a 4th level slot for Arcane Strike and polymorph versus two feats, nine PrC levels, and three caster levels?
Not the point I was making. You said that difference between 2k damage and 1k damage wasn't a big deal. So I pointed out that I agreed that overkill is overkill.



... do you not know the difference between ice assassin and simulacrum? ice assassin is nuts because it's a zero effort infinite loop. The fact that simulacrum is also good doesn't really rate here. You can win the game at 11th with planar binding. Doesn't make shapechange worthless. If you want to argue about how you can cheese the game, why are you even restraining yourself to spells? Candles of Invocation can be bought with gold, which you still have even if you light all your caster levels on fire. Clearly, Commoners are just as good as Wizards on that basis.

I mean, I guess you can want whatever you want, but acting like time stop versus shapechange is remotely close is admitting you have no idea how any of this works and are basically just Markov Chaining arrogance and incredulity in an effort to prop up your pet class. shapechange is probably the flat best thing you can do with 9th level spell slots. time stop is a third tier option at best, because it makes you win one fight instead of making you win the game.[/quote] So planar binding is a game winner. If you can replicate every spell in the game through that in the same way you could with Simulacrum, then shapechange is pointless if you duplicate can be that of a Sarrukh and manipulate your form to give you abilities. Cheesy? Sure, but if we're not doing it we're leaving power on the table. Now, I am not saying Time Stop is the best spell, what I am saying is that point I don't think it's a big deal. Like I said earlier, Incantatrix or Swiftblade you should be kicking ass.

So for the record, every time you move the CL lower to win the game, I become more right in that CL loss isn't a big deal. So, do you have any earlier game winners to prop up my argument, because I am SO ignorant that you're winning the argument for me. Thank you Cosi, for proving my point for me.

Warlock is my pet class, for the record. Also, we aren't using candles of invocation because it's a class discussion, not an item discussion. Generally, I don't like itemization as much as the next guy, it seems.

[Hiro Quester]

It’s worth pointing out the value of using a time-stop for situation-specific spells and for BFC, not just for buffing.

So the persistomsncer vs time stop comparison isn’t quite fair.

In a time stop you can also do things like cast silence on a pebble next to the enemy caster, summon a monster to tear him to pieces, then cast force cage or solid fog around him and the monster, and dimension lock the area.

You can also spam a delayed-blast fireball so they overlap, set to go off as soon as TS ends. Or drop your Druid friend’s fire seeds right at his feet, and be ready to tell Druid to detonate when TS ends.

You can drop a few BFC effects around the enemy, to divide them from one another.

You can Assay spell resistance vs the enemy (a self buff that must be cast while in view of the target). And with a known-duration time stop ready an action, in the last round of TS to blast him with your best Save or die (vs his worst save) as soon as the time stop ends.

Comparing TS to pre-buffing with persistent spells is missing a whole bunch of advantages you can gain by exploiting the known-duration Time Stop for things other than self-buffing.

Plus with the right character design you can take persistent spell and take 10 levels of Swiftblade. Can’t you?

[Endarire]

The thread seems to have come down to:

"I like all my caster levels!"

versus

"I'm OK with trading some of my caster levels (1-4) for neat-sounding class features."

Remember, you can shapechange into a Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) at level 17 and get dual actions. That's two full rounds of actions compared to others' one. This comes online later than an ASAP Swiftblade unless you do ahead-of-the-curve casting, probably with Kobold Loredrakes or Beholder Mages or Ur-Priests with access to shapechange.

Optimization-wise, I may be OK with Swiftblade losing 1 caster level to start, but, debatably, Eldritch Knight and Jade Phoenix Mage are better investments. Or, full Wizard casting (Incantatrix, etc.).

[Zombulian]

The thread seems to have come down to:

"I like all my caster levels!"

versus

"I'm OK with trading some of my caster levels (1-4) for neat-sounding class features."

Remember, you can shapechange into a Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) at level 17 and get dual actions. That's two full rounds of actions compared to others' one. This comes online later than an ASAP Swiftblade unless you do ahead-of-the-curve casting, probably with Kobold Loredrakes or Beholder Mages or Ur-Priests with access to shapechange.

Optimization-wise, I may be OK with Swiftblade losing 1 caster level to start, but, debatably, Eldritch Knight and Jade Phoenix Mage are better investments. Or, full Wizard casting (Incantatrix, etc.).

While your point is fairly valid, you're missing the point where Swiftblade is definitely *NOT* a primary casting PrC. So when we're talking power levels, why would we compare it to full casting PrC's? It's a gish class, and it does that very well. Isn't that the answer to this thread?
Pointing to literally the most powerful options in this game will make anything seem sort of disappointing, but guess what, in a real game, WHO CARES if your Swiftblade isn't as strong as an Incantatrix? If you wanted that, you would've built it.

[lord_khaine]

Optimization-wise, I may be OK with Swiftblade losing 1 caster level to start, but, debatably, Eldritch Knight and Jade Phoenix Mage are better investments. Or, full Wizard casting (Incantatrix, etc.).

We are talking about gishes here, so comparing the Swiftblade to a full caster prestice class is honestly just as silly as comparing it to a rogue or a bard.

And honestly, even for an old prestice class then Swiftblade does have a lot of surprisingly useful class features, that comes online relatively early. Blurred alacricy and sudden casting comes online early enough that you can reasonably expect to get some uses out of them. And they combine 2 of the better arcane buffs in 1 swift action activation. And as a little side bonus then this means you also haste the rest of your party.

Also, as someone else mentioned then the loss of caster levels are staggered out a bit. With normal entry you only lose 2 caster levels from level 1 to 12. That isnt to bad.

Though in the end i do agree on that Jade Phoenix Mage or Abjurant champion is likely to offer more for a gish build.

[Snowbluff]

Well since you usually have to start with more levels in your caster class, you're going to have to do a bit more casting. Really, due to the initiative bonus and relatively low AC compared to Abjurant Champion builds at that point, you're going to want throw in a tiny bit of rocket tag into your list.

it reminds me of the 5e Bladesinger. It loses the wizards strong casting bonus from schools, but gets some defensive options and some melee bonus as a back up.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Swiftblade is the best gish class. Still gets 9ths, nice synergy with Spelldancer, easy to enter with martial wizard, oh, and an extra standard action per round, gee, I may have a use for that somewhere...
Okay, losing higher-level casting PrC features is not ideal, but by that reasoning, Incantatrix is bad because it doesn't get Circle Magic or Supernatural Spell. The class abilities are always better at the other side, no?

[Cosi]

Well, the Swiftblade can take Wizard6/Swiftblade9/ShadowcraftMage5. I wouldn't want to but there are class levels there.

I thought you were taking three levels of Incantatrix for Metamagic Effect? Or is this some kind of quantum Swiftblade?


At 15th level, having the extra action is more than having just spellsurge, since your swift action is still free to cast actually quickened spells or spellsurged spells when you get it.

Yes, it's better. But it's notably not three caster levels better.


Not the point I was making. You said that difference between 2k damage and 1k damage wasn't a big deal. So I pointed out that I agreed that overkill is overkill.

You missed my point. It's not a big deal, and you're paying through the nose for something that isn't a big deal.


So planar binding is a game winner. If you can replicate every spell in the game through that in the same way you could with Simulacrum, then shapechange is pointless if you duplicate can be that of a Sarrukh and manipulate your form to give you abilities. Cheesy? Sure, but if we're not doing it we're leaving power on the table.

You're missing the difference between practical and theoretical. A Swiftblade is worse at doing things with their class features than a non-Swiftblade. Maybe they can still break the game, but so can Commoners -- and no, I don't care that this "isn't an item discussion". That's a stupid distinction, and you are being stupid when you make it. All characters have items, trying to talk about characters as if that wasn't true misses the point and is how you get dumb arguments like JaronK's tiers.


It’s worth pointing out the value of using a time-stop for situation-specific spells and for BFC, not just for buffing.

I agree that there's value there, but you're almost certainly better at doing it if you actually have all your casting.


While your point is fairly valid, you're missing the point where Swiftblade is definitely *NOT* a primary casting PrC. So when we're talking power levels, why would we compare it to full casting PrC's? It's a gish class, and it does that very well. Isn't that the answer to this thread?

Should we only compare the Fighter to other martial classes? Should we only compare the Adept to other NPC classes? Classes are classes.


Okay, losing higher-level casting PrC features is not ideal, but by that reasoning, Incantatrix is bad because it doesn't get Circle Magic or Supernatural Spell. The class abilities are always better at the other side, no?

It's not really fair to compare multiple PrCs to one, unless you're doing the math on total level costs.

[Snowbluff]

I thought you were taking three levels of Incantatrix for Metamagic Effect? Or is this some kind of quantum Swiftblade?
It is a quantum swiftblade. The final 5 levels was a hypothetical situation, same as your proposed build. Personally I'm partial to throwing in some Abjurant Champion and Spelldacer (which normally sucks, but it's only 1 more feat after ABJ champ and swiftblade), but really that's up to how much persistomancy your DM is willing to endure.





Yes, it's better. But it's notably not three caster levels better.

It's worth 5 by my counter. 8 CL is the adjustment for quicken, -3 because you lost levels.


You're missing the difference between practical and theoretical. A Swiftblade is worse at doing things with their class features than a non-Swiftblade. Maybe they can still break the game, but so can Commoners -- and no, I don't care that this "isn't an item discussion". That's a stupid distinction, and you are being stupid when you make it. All characters have items, trying to talk about characters as if that wasn't true misses the point and is how you get dumb arguments like JaronK's tiers.


It being a class based discussion, rather than an item one, is important for this very reason. If every class has items and they all can press the "I win" button, then caster levels are literally worth nothing. :/

[Cosi]

It's worth 5 by my counter. 8 CL is the adjustment for quicken, -3 because you lost levels.

Yes, because people pay full freight for metamagic.


It being a class based discussion, rather than an item one, is important for this very reason. If every class has items and they all can press the "I win" button, then caster levels are literally worth nothing. :/

Or, breaking the game is a bad metric.

[Snowbluff]

Yes, because people pay full freight for metamagic.
Of course not. That's why we use incantatrix and spelldacer. Best seriously, I am reminded of the PrC tiers. Incantatrix is worth a lot for basically for the same reasons.


Or, breaking the game is a bad metric.

Excuse me, but didn't you say that shapechange was better than time stop because it would win you the *game* rather than a fight? Because when someone uses that kind of language, I expect some game breakage. Then, how much of our magic are we allowed to win the game? Is it really an issue that at 17, instead of using Shapechange to gain new abilities, I used a Sarrukh Simulacra instead? The net effect is the same.

If our objective is just to win fights and collect loots, then Swiftblade is entirely fine.

[Cosi]

Of course not. That's why we use incantatrix and spelldacer. Best seriously, I am reminded of the PrC tiers. Incantatrix is worth a lot for basically for the same reasons.

But I thought you were a Shadowcraft Mage?


Excuse me, but didn't you say that shapechange was better than time stop because it would win you the *game* rather than a fight? Because when someone uses that kind of language, I expect some game breakage. Then, how much of our magic are we allowed to win the game? Is it really an issue that at 17, instead of using Shapechange to gain new abilities, I used a Sarrukh Simulacra instead? The net effect is the same.

First, Sarrukh don't work like that.

Second, you can still use an abusable ability fairly.

[Snowbluff]

First, Sarrukh don't work like that.

Second, you can still use an abusable ability fairly.

Well, yes they do. They can add or remove Ex abilities from a scaled one, which is a lot of different races. It says so right I the ability description.

I agree that you can use an abusable ability fairly, but what's fair? If I am "crippled" losing CL, is it fair I grant myself an Ex spellcasting ability from another monster?

[Cosi]

Well, yes they do. They can add or remove Ex abilities from a scaled one, which is a lot of different races. It says so right I the ability description.

It says an ability, and then it gives examples. Those examples are not, in fact, "whatever ability you want".


I agree that you can use an abusable ability fairly, but what's fair? If I am "crippled" losing CL, is it fair I grant myself an Ex spellcasting ability from another monster?

Sure, and I'll do the same thing to get whatever Swiftblade abilities I don't have. Oh, and I still get full casting. Huh, funny how that works out.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This just in, [option being discussed] isn't as powerful as [the most powerful options in the game]! [Build] loses out to Tier-1 persistomancy! News at 11!

[danielxcutter]

This just in, [option being discussed] isn't as powerful as [the most powerful options in the game]! [Build] loses out to Tier-1 persistomancy! News at 11!

May I sig this?

[Snowbluff]

It says an ability, and then it gives examples. Those examples are not, in fact, "whatever ability you want".



Sure, and I'll do the same thing to get whatever Swiftblade abilities I don't have. Oh, and I still get full casting. Huh, funny how that works out.

It gives example of common physicalchanges, but not a comprehensive list of abilities. Oh it can do Su too. :3

Great I'll grab some MM reduction and Metamagic effect as an ability too. In the end it doesn't matter. Ergo nothing of value was lost when I lost CL.

I'll play a green snake naga. I don't remember if they're listed as a scaled one, but it probably it. Sneks ftw
https://68.media.tumblr.com/f78bea93c9d0615a794842aff11db486/tumblr_o3vm96Wk5u1ugesqco1_500.jpg

[Cosi]

This just in, [option being discussed] isn't as powerful as [the most powerful options in the game]! [Build] loses out to Tier-1 persistomancy! News at 11!

Snowbluff is trying to defend Swiftblade as a reasonable choice for a caster, which it isn't. It's a fine gish. But it's bad if you want to do casting, because it gives up casting for stuff you can get easier elsewhere.


It gives example of common physicalchanges, but not a comprehensive list of abilities. Oh it can do Su too. :3

It gives a list of examples. It does things in line with those examples. Like every other list ever.

[Hal0Badger]

This just in, [option being discussed] isn't as powerful as [the most powerful options in the game]! [Build] loses out to Tier-1 persistomancy! News at 11!
Pure gold, definitely sign metarial.

[Snowbluff]

l

It gives a list of examples. It does things in line with those examples. Like every other list ever.

It gives 1 category of examples (physical alterations) while giving no examples of Ex, Su, Sp. it's in line with what physical alterations, but there's no defined limit on what Su, Ex, Sp abilities it can grant, presumably limited by what abilities in those categories exist.

If I gave you a list of examples of doughnuts that read "cinnamon doughnut, chocolate frosted doughnut, and glazed doughnut," you wouldn't tell me that a vanilla frost doughnut isn't a doughnut.

[Cosi]

It gives 1 category of examples (physical alterations) while giving no examples of Ex, Su, Sp. it's in line with what physical alterations, but there's no defined limit on what Su, Ex, Sp abilities it can grant, presumably limited by what abilities in those categories exist.

If it's not limited by the examples, why is it limited by anything? Why do I have to take abilities that exist? "You Give Me Your Car (Ex)" is an Ex ability. It causes you to give me your car. If manipulate form actually allows me to get any ability, why can't I get that one?

[Snowbluff]

If it's not limited by the examples, why is it limited by anything? Why do I have to take abilities that exist? "You Give Me Your Car (Ex)" is an Ex ability. It causes you to give me your car. If manipulate form actually allows me to get any ability, why can't I get that one?

Well if you have it on your sheet, the ability refers to nothing. It's not defined anywhere in the game.

It'd be kind of like taking a spell with Extra spell that doesn't exist on any list. What does it do?

[Grod_The_Giant]

May I sig this?

Pure gold, definitely sign metarial.
Go ahead. Share and enjoy.

[Cosi]

Well if you have it on your sheet, the ability refers to nothing. It's not defined anywhere in the game.

You're confusing abilities and names. The ability is the whole thing, the name and whatever effect it has. Manipulate Form doesn't separate the two.

[Snowbluff]

You're confusing abilities and names. The ability is the whole thing, the name and whatever effect it has. Manipulate Form doesn't separate the two.

Dunno man, you're handing me a cronut. Any ability without a name and no effect in game terms isn't an ability. If the ability doesn't exist in the game, I don't think it counts. However, we've already talked about doing something that's fair.

I'm not giving you my car. >:(

[Thurbane]

Beguiler 6/Switblade 10/X 4

As long as your last 4 levels don't give up any caster levels, you can still get 9ths with Versatile Spellcaster.

Obviously, not as powerful as Beguiler 20 (or Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1), but 9ths are achievable.

[Sir Chuckles]

In short: It's good. It's not as close to or beyond godhood as just going a full caster, but, then again, nothing except another full caster will match another full caster. This is why, as an extremely biased lover of the swashbuckling gish, I hate the hate-boner people have for PrCs that even hint at the mere possibility of giving up half a caster level. Even for a caster, giving up that one level and cutting yourself off at 3rd level can

A Charisma-based caster with Slippers of Battledancing makes for an interesting way to take advantage of the Swiftblade's bonus feats, movement, and actions without needing to be a Snowflake Wardancing Bard, but can still be combined with it. Go on, be the Magic Blooded Lesser Aasimar Jester you now realize you want to be.

[Eldariel]

It gets some good stuff. Extra action way before Shapechange, solid Polymorph chassis (doubled Hydra full attacks for instance), high miss chances and all this on an Ex chassis. One of the better non-persistomancer Gishes and one of the better non-Cheater AMF users.

Not the most powerful PRC but fine for games without the Tier 0.5 options. Peaks around ECL 14 as opposed to 17. Note, just being a Gish doesn't take that many slots. You'll still be casting your share of control and utility and you have the slots to that end. Gishing mostly takes up your 1-3 slots and some individual ones higher up.

[Snowbluff]

Beguiler 6/Switblade 10/X 4

As long as your last 4 levels don't give up any caster levels, you can still get 9ths with Versatile Spellcaster.

Obviously, not as powerful as Beguiler 20 (or Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1), but 9ths are achievable.

I dunno man, that's like cheating. :3
Still I do like both of those classes, and beguiler doesn't normally get time stop. Probably wrap up the build with some mod beguiler to grab some advanced learning.

[Cosi]

Still I do like both of those classes, and beguiler doesn't normally get time stop.

Uh, yes it does. It's right there on the Beguiler list, just after power word kill.

[Gruftzwerg]

over the day I tried to think about other casting classes/prc who could enter Swiftblade, cause imho Wiz/Sorc ain't the best option for it. I'm not even sure if we need a full caster at all.


Wu-Jen:
The biggest point for the Wu-Jen is "Body Outside Body". This would solve the dmg problem we had so far and further advance the tanking abilities of the prc. Combine with "Giant Size" for extra cheese and have fun smashing your enemies.

Vigilante 5(prc):
While this would delay the Swiftbalde entry to lvl 11, this prc could be still interesting for builds. First, it doesn't loose any casting with adding Swiftblade when you leave Vigilante at lvl 5 (character lvl 10). Further you have the first 5 lvls for mundane classes free (e.g. Barb1 for pounce, Fighter/Crusader/Warblade a few lvls and maybe dip/start rouge to get the skills). Further you can use bluff as a move action to create a division and hide. This gives the extra action Swiftblade gets more value.
Sad part is the late entry into Swiftblade.

[Hiro Quester]

Another interesting option for a swift blade is combining it with bard and war weaver, with sublime chord casting.

that is Bard 7, Swiftblade 1or2, War Weaver 1or2 (both classes with dead-caster levels taken before 10), Sublime Chord 1 (starts a new arcane casting progression), Swiftblade 3 onwards /Warweaver2 onwards.

WW instead of something like Abjurant Champion means you don't get quite as high BAB for Gish.

But this fits the Swiftblade's theme of milking the action economy for many party buffs (that also affect yourself) and bardic inspiration buffs in the first round.

Plus taking the first of the two PrCs before taking Sublime Chord at 10th level, means you take levels that don't progress casting before you pick up SCs casting progression (that includes getting Irresistable dance as a 6th level spell, at about level 13 or 14 (depending on the order you take SB and WW levels).

Melodic casting feat --instead of Combat Casting-- enables casting while singing, and means you can dump concentration in favor of perform.

And learn the Harmonize spell to make bardic music uses a move action.

Use two move actions in the first round to start bardic inspiration and releasing your "weave" to load the party with buff spells in the first round (and quick cast a SoD or BfC spell if you have a rod or the feat).

Then in the second round, with your party buff responsibilities discharged, you can either snowflake wardance into combat and slice the enemy to pieces. Or blast them with a spell and sing a different inspiration.

[Snowbluff]

@Gruft: I do like using partial casters with casting certain prcs. It's kind of too bad not all of the get haste.

However the damage problem was debunked. If you're building a gish you use Arcane Strike, and swiftblades get a small skirmish ability as well. Comparing it to an übercharger isn't necessarily appropriate due to it often being considered the strongest, or at worst TO, but even then I don't think a properly built Swiftblade would have an issue when you're a Skirmishing Power Attacking Wraithstriking Arcane striking 10 headed hydra.


Uh, yes it does. It's right there on the Beguiler list, just after power word kill.

Woops, you're right. Was AFB.

[danielxcutter]

@Gruft: I do like using partial casters with casting certain prcs. It's kind of too bad not all of the get haste.

However the damage problem was debunked. If you're building a gish you use Arcane Strike, and swiftblades get a small skirmish ability as well. Comparing it to an übercharger isn't necessarily appropriate due to it often being considered the strongest, or at worst TO, but even then I don't think a properly built Swiftblade would have an issue when you're a Skirmishing Power Attacking Wraithstriking Arcane striking 10 headed hydra.

Arcane Strike isn't that good if you're using a Wizard base, but since you don't need many high-level spell slots to gish and for Swiftblades you get tons of effects from Haste alone, it's a great way of adding damage.

Also Polymorph is considered cheesy at many tables, and it's not recommended to use it frequently. Still, it's a great "oh screw this I TURN INTO A DRAGON" button to press when you need it.

@Gruft: Why don't gish characters deal enough damage? Compared to "fully optimized melee" characters, maybe, but most melee characters aren't fully optimized. You don't have to be an ubercharger to deal enough damage, seriously.


Woops, you're right. Was AFB.

Huh, didn't know that either.

[Snowbluff]

@hiro: nice build. I love the buffing concept. :3

Arcane Strike isn't that good if you're using a Wizard base, but since you don't need many high-level spell slots to gish and for Swiftblades you get tons of effects from Haste alone, it's a great way of adding damage.

Also Polymorph is considered cheesy at many tables, and it's not recommended to use it frequently. Still, it's a great "oh screw this I TURN INTO A DRAGON" button to press when you need it.

@Gruft: Why don't gish characters deal enough damage? Compared to "fully optimized melee" characters, maybe, but most melee characters aren't fully optimized. You don't have to be an ubercharger to deal enough damage, seriously.


Huh, didn't know that either.
Really it's to prove a point. Polymorph may be cheesy, but he's comparing it to ubercharger so cheese meets cheese. It's good to remember "I'm still a wizard" even it's a couple CL down, and the build does add soemthing with the bonus haste effects, being able to haste on the same round as polymorph, "skirmish", etc.

As for the wizard spell slots, I think it's fine. Being specialized (transmitter, probably) will give you more slot levels to work with than a sorcerer of the same CL, iirc. I'd assumed you'd use more 1st and 2nd level slots, saving a few 4th and 3rds for haste and poly.

[Gruftzwerg]

Really it's to prove a point. Polymorph may be cheesy, but he's comparing it to ubercharger so cheese meets cheese. It's good to remember "I'm still a wizard" even it's a couple CL down, and the build does add soemthing with the bonus haste effects, being able to haste on the same round as polymorph, "skirmish", etc.


The thread is about "how good a swiftblade is". But "good" can be defined in many ways. We already have said that from a non optimization point, it is a good and flavorful prc (I also join this opinion and have already said it too).
If no optimization at all is involved, than the PRC just needs to beat a Samurai and Soulknife to be "good" I guess? You see how this leads to nonsense.

The sole point left to debate is builds to recommend and the TO part imho. And the TO discussion will give us more infos to compare his overall power/usefulness with other classes & build, so that we can see how "good" he is in this discipline.

[Snowbluff]

Well at level 10 I parsed out 240 Damage per round with a ten headed hydra with Arcane strike of 4th level.

We've already established you're allowed to use tricks to recover lost effective CL when it comes to spell level, so a wizard could hypothetically grab Versatile spells caster wtih Spontaneous divination and still have access to fifth level spells as needed (similar to what Thurbane did at the top of the page)

So, no I think it optimizes a little better than samurai or soulknife.

[Hiro Quester]

I was considering this a "Would it be fun to play a Swiftblade?" discussion, rather than a "Can you break a game with Swiftblade?" discussion.

There are many things you can do (especially with a caster) that no sane DM who wants a fun challenging adventure for the whole party is going to allow at their table. Yes you could break the game, but that's why the DM would nerf or nix certain options.

Polymorphing into a ten headed Hydra with arcane strike at 10th level would certainly be one of them. (My Dm immediately said no to my Druid having a giant squid as an available wildshape form for a similar reason. And I accepted this because he's right.) A single spell or ability that totally shuts down what would otherwise be a fun and interesting challenge for the whole party, is something most DMs would consider asking you not to bring to the table.

Showing that a Swiftblade can break a game, or arguing that it can't break a game into quite as many pieces as a mailman, is answering the latter question.

My impression was that OP was asking the first question.

My impression is that a well-built Swiftblade could be easily Tier 2 (but more favoring flexibility than raw power); very fun to play, able to make a meaningful contribution to most encounters, have a defined party role with the flexibility to help out in other roles when needed (Casting, Melee, BFC, Buffing).

[danielxcutter]

-snip-

This. This sooooo much. I wasn't expecting *two* thread wins from you.

Yes, you can sig this too.

[Thurbane]

I'm going to be playing a Beguiler in an upcoming game...seriously considering making it a Swiftblade build now (although, being a 2 PC game, where I'm running both, and the other PC will be a Crusader, maybe better off sticking with my original Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1 build).

[danielxcutter]

I'm going to be playing a Beguiler in an upcoming game...seriously considering making it a Swiftblade build now (although, being a 2 PC game, where I'm running both, and the other PC will be a Crusader, maybe better off sticking with my original Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1 build).

Don't think you lose too much from Beguiler with a Swiftblade build, actually, but it depends on what the goal is.

[atemu1234]

So the consensus is that the power level of the swiftblade is somewhere between the fighter and wizard in power. Great stuff. Just the type of level debate I expect on these forums.

[Zombulian]

So the consensus is that the power level of the swiftblade is somewhere between the fighter and wizard in power. Great stuff. Just the type of level debate I expect on these forums.

Lol.
How would we place it next to Duskblade?
I suppose it depends on how you enter...

[Eldariel]

Lol.
How would we place it next to Duskblade?
I suppose it depends on how you enter...

That's the thing - a PRC's power is entirely dependent on the build. A Sublime Chord Swiftblade is very different from e.g. Duskblade Swiftblade, Suel Arcanamach Swiftblade or Wizard Swiftblade (and yes, all those classes can enter with sufficient work). Thus you can't say Swiftblade is stronger or weaker than a base class; you can compare it to the other alternatives in a given build. Duskblade vs. Wizard/Swiftblade is obvious for instance: Swiftblade gets 9th level spells while Duskblade doesn't so it doesn't take long for the BAB difference to cease to matter in comparison to the insanely powerful effects the Wizard Swiftblade is throwing around. Duskblade vs. Duskblade Swiftblade is a different matter; Duskblade gets the full attack channeling for instance and more spells while Swiftblade rocks Swiftblade-abilities.