The Armorist (Spheres of Power)

[A.J.Gibson]

So I've been playing with writing an armorist guide, and I'm trying to understand why so many people complain about it. I think the big issue (besides only getting 2 skill points per level) is that summon equipment isn't all that good. It's basically the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon and Armor abilities, but with far more properties available. The armorist can change their weapon properties by summoning new equipment, but most weapon properties are build specific rather than problem specific, so the armorist is going to be summoning the same thing over and over. It's not nearly as versatile as it seems. In addition, a lot of properties are locked behind arsenal tricks (most notably Bane, the best property for armorists, since they can change what creature type is affected by resummoning equipment).

The exception is summon staff. Is it my imagination, or is it the most broken thing in SoP?

There has been an effort to fix armorists recently (such as with some of the new tricks in Gear of Power). What do people think the armorist needs?

[dude123nice]

Bound staves would perhaps be broken if they weren't given to a half caster like the armorist. Other than that most of their class features revolve around giving you at will access to a limited set of weapon, shield and armor special abilities, and that is almost all of it. You can either invest these enhancement points into staves and then you become almost a 3/4 caster with few other class features, or you can invest them in weapons and armor, and then you are a 1/2 caster with extra enhancement bonuses and special abilities chosen from a limited pool. Pretty weak compared to every other class in SoP.

[khadgar567]

If you ask me what armorist needs is what 1st level armiger gives way to get more talents via summoning specialized weapons. armorist is best class to build either gilgamesh or emiya but it needs armiger dip to get all the toys to build them. and it kinda needs might talents boost its usefulness.

[Mehangel]

So I've been playing with writing an armorist guide, and I'm trying to understand why so many people complain about it. I think the big issue (besides only getting 2 skill points per level) is that summon equipment isn't all that good. It's basically the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon and Armor abilities, but with far more properties available. The armorist can change their weapon properties by summoning new equipment, but most weapon properties are build specific rather than problem specific, so the armorist is going to be summoning the same thing over and over. It's not nearly as versatile as it seems. In addition, a lot of properties are locked behind arsenal tricks (most notably Bane, the best property for armorists, since they can change what creature type is affected by resummoning equipment).

The exception is summon staff. Is it my imagination, or is it the most broken thing in SoP?

There has been an effort to fix armorists recently (such as with some of the new tricks in Gear of Power). What do people think the armorist needs?

One of the main issues with the armorist, is that when compared to DSP's soulknife, it just doesn't really compare. Especially when Psionics Augmented: Soulknives I, II, and III are included. For example, the armorist has to spend arsenal tricks to gain access to weapon/armor abilities that a soulknife has from the beginning.

[A.J.Gibson]

Bound staves would perhaps be broken if they weren't given to a half caster like the armorist. Other than that most of their class features revolve around giving you at will access to a limited set of weapon, shield and armor special abilities, and that is almost all of it. You can either invest these enhancement points into staves and then you become almost a 3/4 caster with few other class features, or you can invest them in weapons and armor, and then you are a 1/2 caster with extra enhancement bonuses and special abilities chosen from a limited pool. Pretty weak compared to every other class in SoP.

Can't they just pass their summoned staves to the party full-caster?

[A.J.Gibson]

One of the main issues with the armorist, is that when compared to DSP's soulknife, it just doesn't really compare. Especially when Psionics Augmented: Soulknives I, II, and III are included. For example, the armorist has to spend arsenal tricks to gain access to weapon/armor abilities that a soulknife has from the beginning.

Any particular properties that stand out?

[dude123nice]

Can't they just pass their summoned staves to the party full-caster?

Huh, hadn't thought about it but I guess, yeah, that IS pretty strong, especially if paired with a full caster. Although it still should be balanced against other SoP material since, remember, you could get +5 staves for a full caster even without an Armorist buddy, and you can't stack multiple staves for the same sphere.

[Mehangel]

Any particular properties that stand out?

Any arsenal trick that expands what weapon/armor/shield property you may add to your bound weapon should be removed (except maybe the following arsenal tricks: Hide Equipment Hunter, and Movement). Even if the weapon/armor/shield properties were to remain, their level prerequisites should be removed. Why does an armorist need to be level 8 before they can have a ghost touch bound weapon? Why must an armorist be level 6 to have bound equipment made of silver, mithril or cold iron?

[A.J.Gibson]

Huh, hadn't thought about it but I guess, yeah, that IS pretty strong, especially if paired with a full caster. Although it still should be balanced against other SoP material since, remember, you could get +5 staves for a full caster even without an Armorist buddy, and you can't stack multiple staves for the same sphere.

That's not the powerful bit. At 10th level, the armorist can summon a staff with up to a +3 enhancement. They can spend +2 of that property on the magical talent staff property and then choose any talent and place it into the staff. They effectively have the hedgewitch's ability, but they can give the staff to another character and it costs a spell point (so they can use it more often). At 15th level, they can do this as a swift action, and they can do a +5 staff, or 2 copies of magical talent (you can put multiple copies of this property on one staff). At 20th level, it no long costs a spell point to summon equipment. Seems pretty good to me.

[A.J.Gibson]

Any arsenal trick that expands what weapon/armor/shield property you may add to your bound weapon should be removed (except maybe the following arsenal tricks: Hide Equipment Hunter, and Movement). Even if the weapon/armor/shield properties were to remain, their level prerequisites should be removed. Why does an armorist need to be level 8 before they can have a ghost touch bound weapon? Why must an armorist be level 6 to have bound equipment made of silver, mithril or cold iron?

I was asking about the soulknife. I'm not extremely familiar with it (re-reading it now). What did DSP do that fixed it?

The arsenal tricks that grant properties are understandable, as granting the armorist access to every property is probably broken. Probably? But most properties are not worth a trick (Bane being the counterexample). The simple truth is that you are probably going to use the same properties over and over again, so the whole class feature is not all that great, except for a few properties that get better if you can reconfigure them, like Bane and Energy Resistance.

[Mehangel]

That's not the powerful bit. At 10th level, the armorist can summon a staff with up to a +3 enhancement. They can spend +2 of that property on the magical talent staff property and then choose any talent and place it into the staff. They effectively have the hedgewitch's ability, but they can give the staff to another character and it costs a spell point (so they can use it more often). At 15th level, they can do this as a swift action, and they can do a +5 staff, or 2 copies of magical talent (you can put multiple copies of this property on one staff). At 20th level, it no long costs a spell point to summon equipment. Seems pretty good to me.

An armorist cannot 'summon staves'. They can only summon weapons or shields at level 1, and armor at level 5. Never in the Summon Equipment class feature are staves mentioned as being able to be summoned, and since Bound Equipment only works in the hands of the armorist they are bound to you cannot 'hand over a staff to another to use'.


I was asking about the soulknife. I'm not extremely familiar with it (re-reading it now). What did DSP do that fixed it?

Pretty much the soulknife begins with access to every weapon special property there is without having to spend Blade Skills to use them.


The arsenal tricks that grant properties are understandable, as granting the armorist access to every property is probably broken. Probably? But most properties are not worth a trick (Bane being the counterexample). The simple truth is that you are probably going to use the same properties over and over again, so the whole class feature is not all that great, except for a few properties that get better if you can reconfigure them, like Bane and Energy Resistance.

Without the ability to reconfigure bound equipment on the fly (i.e. mid-combat), gaining access to a specific weapon or armor quality requires the expenditure of spellpoints to summon one and will have a duration of min/level.

[A.J.Gibson]

An armorist cannot 'summon staves'. They can only summon weapons or shields at level 1, and armor at level 5. Never in the Summon Equipment class feature are staves mentioned as being able to be summoned, and since Bound Equipment only works in the hands of the armorist they are bound to you cannot 'hand over a staff to another to use'.


That explains it. The fact they can summon/bind 3 things and only bind the fourth is weird, though.



Pretty much the soulknife begins with access to every weapon special property there is without having to spend Blade Skills to use them.


The srd has a table for them to choose from, and it looks a lot like the armorist table (except it has DSP properties and brilliant energy on it). Did something change?

[Mehangel]

The srd has a table for them to choose from, and it looks a lot like the armorist table (except it has DSP properties and brilliant energy on it). Did something change?

The PFSRD isn't updated to include the updated table from Psionics Augmented: Soulknives I, II, & III (which includes almost every armor, shield, and weapon special ability; and for those not included, they included a universal way to add future abilities to the list)

[dude123nice]

That explains it. The fact they can summon/bind 3 things and only bind the fourth is weird, though.

Except you've just told us what exploit would be possible if you COULD summon staves and give them to others. It"s very possible that you originally could summon staves as well but that someone also pointed out this exploit during the playtest and that it got removed. Or they just realized from the start and designed the class to avoid it. They are, afther all, much better ant game design and balance than Paizo is.

[Mehangel]

Except you've just told us what exploit would be possible if you COULD summon staves and give them to others. It"s very possible that you originally could summon staves as well but that someone also pointed out this exploit during the playtest and that it got removed. Or they just realized from the start and designed the class to avoid it. They are, afther all, much better ant game design and balance than Paizo is.

The original armorist could infact summon staves, but as you point out exploits were pointed out during playtest. Ofcourse, if I recall correctly, the reason it was removed was not because of the armorist potentially handing off staves to other casters, but rather summoning staves with any sphere + talent they needed at the time (stepping on the toes of the spiritualist hedgewitch).

Something that the original armorist could do that I wish they still could do was bind/summon armor at level 1.

[A.J.Gibson]

The original armorist could infact summon staves, but as you point out exploits were pointed out during playtest. Ofcourse, if I recall correctly, the reason it was removed was not because of the armorist potentially handing off staves to other casters, but rather summoning staves with any sphere + talent they needed at the time (stepping on the toes of the spiritualist hedgewitch).

Something that the original armorist could do that I wish they still could do was bind/summon armor at level 1.

Yes, the ability to pick a new sphere talent with that +2 staff property is problematic. The fact they only get Armor at 5th level is odd, given the name of the class.

Can you point me to where the soulknife's property list is expanded? I check all three soulknife books and couldn't find it.

[Mehangel]

Can you point me to where the soulknife's property list is expanded? I check all three soulknife books and couldn't find it.

Psionics Augmented: Soulknives II, page 15.

Although, now that I look at the Soulknife again, it looks like I was wrong in-part. While nearly every weapon property is available to the soulknife without needing to use bladeskills to acquire them, they all have a required level to apply to the mindblade. Whereas an armorist could potentially have a weapon special on their weapon at level 3 provided they spent their first arsenal trick on Improved Equipment.

[A.J.Gibson]

Psionics Augmented: Soulknives II, page 15.

Although, now that I look at the Soulknife again, it looks like I was wrong in-part. While nearly every weapon property is available to the soulknife without needing to use bladeskills to acquire them, they all have a required level to apply to the mindblade. Whereas an armorist could potentially have a weapon special on their weapon at level 3 provided they spent their first arsenal trick on Improved Equipment.

Thanks. The soulknife's weapon list is an impressive 64 properties compared to the 20 the armorist gets, though it's not the 173 listed in the SRD. The armor and shield lists are on par with the armorist (almost the same, actually, but soulknife gets ghost touch). How does the soulknife add more things to their list?

[Mehangel]

The soulknife's weapon list is an impressive 64 properties compared to the 20 the armorist gets, though it's not the 173 listed in the SRD.

True, but how many of those properties are from 3rd party sources (although I wouldn't be surprised if only 1 or 2 are from 3pp). While not exactly expansive, the paizo-srd has 73 (unless I miscounted) on their list (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/weaponSpecialAbilities.html).


How does the soulknife add more things to their list?

The Personalized Trick trait (found in Psionics Augmented: Soulknives II, pg 6). In addition, while not adding to their list, Crystalline Focus items have been FAQ'd to allow adding weapon properties to the mindblade.

[A.J.Gibson]

True, but how many of those properties are from 3rd party sources (although I wouldn't be surprised if only 1 or 2 are from 3pp). While not exactly expansive, the paizo-srd has 73 (unless I miscounted) on their list (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/weaponSpecialAbilities.html).

The Personalized Trick trait (found in Psionics Augmented: Soulknives II, pg 6). In addition, while not adding to their list, Crystalline Focus items have been FAQ'd to allow adding weapon properties to the mindblade.

I got the list here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/). These are all paizo (I think); a lot were introduced in the recent melee and ranged weapons toolbox suppliments. It's not important; the soulknife gets a lot more than the armorist, but not all of them.

Personalized trick seems to be the important thing. Both stack and I have added arsenal tricks for this to Gear of Power, and we haven't resolved what we're gong with. What do people think we should do? Is this broken? Also, what else is needed? Some sort of ability to instantly switch properties?

Honestly, I don't think fixing properties is enough. Having 'the right tool for the job' doesn't make a big difference in PF, when 99% of the time the correct answer is a Keen Adamantine Two-Handed sword. Being able to swap spells adds versatility to a wizard because there are a lot of corner-case spells that totally solve certain encounters, but weapon properties are often like that, except maybe Bane, Energy Resistance, Ghost Touch, and maybe Reflecting.

[Mehangel]

Personalized trick seems to be the important thing. Both stack and I have added arsenal tricks for this to Gear of Power, and we haven't resolved what we're gong with. What do people think we should do? Is this broken? Also, what else is needed? Some sort of ability to instantly switch properties?

I think the following things should be done to the Armorist:

1st) Add a Sidebar to Gear of Power that says that Crystaline Focuses may be used to augment appropriate Bound or Summoned Equipment as if it were a Mind Blade (or equivalent ability).

2nd) Make an updated table that expands all the weapon, shield and armor properties that an armorist may take (probably basing it off of the Soulknife's).

3rd) Remove all arsenal tricks that merely allow Armorists to take weapon, shield or armor properties (such as Aiding, Dancing, Empathic, Ethereal Equipment, Hunter, Movement, and Trap and Free); While keeping all the arsenal tricks that freely grant weapon, shield, or armor properties (such as Hide Equipment and Shifting Weapons).

4th) Add a single arsenal trick (that can be taken multiple times) which allows the armorist to add a weapon, shield, or armor property not on the updated list to be used.

5th) Remove the level prerequisites of the following arsenal tricks: Improved Materials, Greater Materials

6th) Increase the Armorist's skill points each level by 2.

[EldritchWeaver]

How do you deal with the Duelist arsenal trick? Place the duelist property in the table and allow this trick to be taken at 12th level for the rest?

[Necroticplague]

How do you deal with the Duelist arsenal trick? Place the duelist property in the table and allow this trick to be taken at 12th level for the rest?

What's the problem with Duelist? It's just an initiative bonus and a bonus with the least commonly used maneuvers. Just use enemies that can survive one round of having their initiative beaten, and who don't try and disarm.

[EldritchWeaver]

What's the problem with Duelist? It's just an initiative bonus and a bonus with the least commonly used maneuvers. Just use enemies that can survive one round of having their initiative beaten, and who don't try and disarm.

The problem is that the Duelist can be taken twice. The second time it always grants the duelist property without costing a bonus. Mehangel's suggestions do not cover this particular case.