Mantled Erudite with magic mantle vs erudite with StP

[Inaba]

Perhaps im reading this wrong, but if you always treat magic as psionics wouldn't that mean that if you established mental contact (as per the Erudite rules) with any spellcaster then you could access their spell list and gain one of their spells as an effective power you could manifest anyway?

[Inaba]

So... Did I do something wrong when I wrote the question, is this site just dead, or does nobody really know anything about this?

[DMVerdandi]

So... Did I do something wrong when I wrote the question, is this site just dead, or does nobody really know anything about this?

STP natively has that ability.
The reason for using the magic mantle IIRC, is to bootstrap your way into learning 9th level arcane spells. Because normally, they learn spells as if they were discipline powers (which they can learn up to 8.)

You are supposed to take both, rather than Magic mantle OVER STP.

Now, based on the rules as written, I find it shaky, and would magic mantle as ENFORCING the standard of magic=psionics transparancy, which is the default anyway. I think it's also popularly used as a way to use meta magic feats for it, which are by the rules banned after STP is taken.



I think convert spell to power is pretty succinct in it's rules. You can now obtain spells as you did discipline powers. Spells are now considered powers, but still have somatic and verbal components, but lose material components. Damage spells cast at lowest spell level, and augment 1 PP per Die, to a maximum of the normal amount of die for the spell level. (If max is 5d6, it's still 5d6, even if you have more pp than that.) For all other aspects simply treat as discipline spells, as far as acquiring, cost, and meta-psionics


As a DM, I would allow all 3x metapsionic powers, since I know persistent is an important part of the game, if not already allowing characters to simply convert meta-magic into metapsionic feats from the jump. But the other method is an attempt to get DM intervention out of the picture, which is in many ways the best thing to do.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't think it works that way. Powers and spells are different things, and the mantle doesn't overwrite that-- it only works for things like Dispel Magic, basically forcing psionics-magic transparency in campaigns that don't use the rule.

[DMVerdandi]

I don't think it works that way. Powers and spells are different things, and the mantle doesn't overwrite that-- it only works for things like Dispel Magic, basically forcing psionics-magic transparency in campaigns that don't use the rule.

Agreed. It just seems that in extremely liberal readings of that, it's always incorporated in a build.
Personally, I think the real use of magic mantle is so that an ardent can now use UMD, and it really doesn't do anything for an erudite. Maybe if STP is NOT allowed, you can now be considered a secondary magic item user, but it seems useless in a campaign with magic=psionic transparency, and STP.

[Troacctid]

Magic Mantle pretty much allows you to use transparency even in a campaign where transparency isn't normally in use. If your DM isn't using the "Psionics is different" variant, then that part of the ability just doesn't do anything.

[Douglas]

I don't think it works that way. Powers and spells are different things, and the mantle doesn't overwrite that-- it only works for things like Dispel Magic, basically forcing psionics-magic transparency in campaigns that don't use the rule.
That's probably how it was intended, yes, but that's (debatably) not how it was written. What the text actually says is "you always treat magic and psionics as identical."

The next two sentences then proceed to give the Dispel Magic example and state "most campaigns already treat them in this manner," which is a really strong implication that what they meant was the standard transparency rule, but they still wrote "treat as identical" as the primary rules text of that section.

[Aracor]

Technically speaking, RAW it's very difficult to learn spells even as a STP erudite. There's no exception in the description that actually allows the erudite to make psychic contact with a wizard or other non-psionic character. As usual, the vagueness leaves a lot for the DM to decide. It would be easy to rule that you can make contact with a sorcerer, bard, or any other arcane caster who has spells known, but not a wizard (as their spells are in their book), or to rule that for a wizard you can only learn spells that they have currently memorized. However, either way it requires an exception unless the character happens to be a cerebremancer or in other way have a power point reserve (making them a psionic creature), otherwise the rules simply don't allow contact. And since you can't actually put a spell in a power stone, that removes the other method for the STP erudite to learn spells (since they're as discipline powers). As usual, your mileage may vary, but there's a lot here that requires DM adjudication.

There's nothing that says an arcane caster becomes a psionic creature even with the magic mantle, so there's nothing about that mantle that makes being a STP erudite easier.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's probably how it was intended, yes, but that's (debatably) not how it was written. What the text actually says is "you always treat magic and psionics as identical."

The next two sentences then proceed to give the Dispel Magic example and state "most campaigns already treat them in this manner," which is a really strong implication that what they meant was the standard transparency rule, but they still wrote "treat as identical" as the primary rules text of that section.
But even if you're treating them as identical, that's not the same as treating spells as if they were powers. And even if you read the mantle as doing that, you still can't learn them, because you're limited to Psion/Wilder and powers and powers off the discipline lists.

Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of two new powers of any level or levels that he can manifest (according to his new level) from the psion/wilder power list

If the selected power is not on his class list or on any of the select discipline lists, he automatically fails this check. If the check fails, the
erudite cannot understand, manifest, or learn the power.
Even if you can treat spells as powers, they're not on the Psion/Wilder list, and they're not on the discipline lists, so you'd automatically fail the Psicraft check to learn them.

[Snowbluff]

Then the obvious solution is a brainbow warsnake type of deal?