Arms & Equipment Guide (a rant)

[Yahzi]

The A&EG has a page that lists wheat as 1 cp per pound. Every other grain is listed in sp or gp per pound: barley, which is something you feed to horses, is 1 gp per pound.

Most grains turned into flour are double the price, but a pound of wheat flour is listed at 3 gp. OK, fine, maybe they meant to list wheat at 1.5 gp per pound, which would make sense compared to barley and millet (but since the original source book clearly defines a lb of wheat as 1 cp, somebody must have changed it back before printing). So let's give them that typo.

Except... a miller makes 2 sp a day.

So that miller apparently takes all week to make 1 lb of wheat into 1 lb of flour? (It would be interesting to see the price of bread, but they don't provide it. 10 different spices starting with the letter C, but no bread).

But more to the point, what does that miller eat?!? They have page after page of hirelings and soldiers, who can be hired for silver pieces per day. And yet every single food item is listed in gold pieces per pound.

I realize we're not aiming for strict simulation here, but seriously. Why did no one look at page 31 and page 62 and go... "hmmm." Did none of their players ever hire a footman, and then try to purchase food for him?

You can justify hirelings working for silvers. 1 lb wheat = 1 cp means a farmer makes about 60 gp a year. That works out to 1.5 sp a day for the labor of him and his whole family (before taxes, which might be as high as 50%). So fine, you can believe a soldier will work for 2-4 sp a day plus a chance at booty. Craftsmen make 100 gp a year or so; 1st rank PCs (being nobles) make 300-400 gp a year. It all works out reasonably well. At least, until these authors decided to just wing it. And yet they got paid for that book. Grrrr.


EDIT: You can hire a knight - full plate, warhorse, the whole deal - for 24 sp a day. And. He's. Level. 12! OK, so he's a Warrior, but still. 12th level!

[Vaz]

Good rant.

[lord_khaine]

They failed at balancing the basic game rules. Demaning a coherent economic system is really to much to ask..

[Tipsy_Pooka]

It looks as though they flat-out copied all the prices from an old 2E book called "Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue". This was one my absolute favorite 2E sourcebook for all things mundane. Since I don't really have an opportunity to play anymore these days, the most D&D-ing I get to do is spending an inordinate amount of time working out weird little economics/demographics thought-experiments like this.

[TotallyNotEvil]

So, is there a good economy fix around?

[Tipsy_Pooka]

So, is there a good economy fix around?

Short Answer: Not Exactly

Nearly ALL of the books I've purchased in the last few years have all been on this topic. My three personal favorites right now are:
1) A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe
or
2) Grain Into Gold

Neither is ideal... but does a much better job than Core (or A&E for that matter)

Edit: I forgot one... Gary Gygax's Living Fantasy

[TotallyNotEvil]

Short Answer: Not Exactly

Nearly ALL of the books I've purchased in the last few years have all been on this topic. My three personal favorites right now are:
1) A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe
or
2) Grain Into Gold

Neither is ideal... but does a much better job than Core (or A&E for that matter)

Edit: I forgot one... Gary Gygax's Living Fantasy

Much appreciated.

[Tipsy_Pooka]

So that miller apparently takes all week to make 1 lb of wheat into 1 lb of flour? (It would be interesting to see the price of bread, but they don't provide it. 10 different spices starting with the letter C, but no bread).


Technically, due to medieval milling techniques ~30% of the grain is lost in the milling process. So for every 3lb of grain milled you really only get 2lb of flour. Which almost justifies the 2cp cost of a pound of flour in the PHB. Bread is listed in the PHB as well (page 129) at 6cp/pound.

Edit:

Hmm? The PHB provides the cost of a loaf of bread. It's worth 2 cp, weighs 1/2 lb. So that's 4 cp per pound of bread.
Yeah, I royally screwed that up... weak defense *sigh* but I'm still new here...

[Coidzor]

Hmm? The PHB provides the cost of a loaf of bread. It's worth 2 cp, weighs 1/2 lb. Or at least it's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm). So that's 4 cp per pound of bread.

Cheese is 1 sp for 1/2 pound of it, so 2 sp per pound. Meat is 3 sp per 1/2 pound of it, so 6 sp per pound.

A day's worth of prepared meals for a single (adult, Small or Medium sized) person runs either 1, 3 or 5 sp.

[Knaight]

barley, which is something you feed to horses, is 1 gp per pound.

Barley was the main food grain for people in much of Europe for centuries, with wheat being a grain for rich people. It's hardly just horse feed.

[King of Nowhere]

yes, the designers made the game so that people could have an adventuring group go around in this tolkien-esque/fairy tale-esque world having adventures, and they designed all the rules with that in mind.

Who could have assumed that people would extrapolate the logical consequences implicated in the setting instead of taking it at face value? it would be like people playing monopoly declaring that they'll sleep in the middle of the street to avoid paying the rents. they simply failed to take into account the nature of their players in the first place.

[johnbragg]

Who could have assumed that people would extrapolate the logical consequences implicated in the setting instead of taking it at face value? it would be like people playing monopoly declaring that they'll sleep in the middle of the street to avoid paying the rents. they simply failed to take into account the nature of their players in the first place.

Yeah, the designers expected players to try to find out whether the mortar in a standard dungeon wall could be removed using a rusty dagger and a flask of nearly-poisonous goblin-brew that failed a Craft check to become moonshine. They did not expect such players to try to figure out how to mine infinite gold (and therefore magic items) from gaps in the setting logic.

Looking forward, no one imagined it. Looking backwards, it seems inevitable.

The missing factor is the fading of the Gods. In Dragonlance I think it was canon that the gods would smite anyone going past level 17. AD&D and 2E veterans could not see the future, because it was behind a veil of Rocks Falling and Everyone Dying.

EDIT: Doubly ironic, as D&D has its roots in miniatures-based wargaming, a genre where resource management and exploitation is a big factor--you won't have your goblin horde for long if you haven't resourced feeding them.

[Mordaedil]

Why does this guy keep making a bunch of threads ranting about the content of 3.0 edition books?

Like, they are old as dirt, outdated and all. I mean technically so is 3.5 edition, but even more so.

[Yahzi]

So, is there a good economy fix around?
I'm working on one right now. As in my original post, it assumes 1 cp = 1 lb wheat and goes from there. Most things work out pretty well, though the price of a cow had to change.

I wanted to know if there were any canonical prices for flying mounts, which is how I wound up looking at the A&EG. As others have noted, the SRD isn't actually terrible; I've succeeded at justifying a lot of those prices.

But given how much work I am putting into my *free* price guide, I was just annoyed that someone got paid for such a sloppy job.

Thanks for the tip on milling. I'll have to figure out how to incorporate that, but it will be tough.

My research says that a decent medieval average was 8 bushels per acre, with a seed ratio of 1:4. That means a 40 acre farm nets 6,000 lbs of grain, after setting aside seed and crop rotation. Which is 60 gp a year for a peasant farmer.

I use a %50 sharecropper tax, which is admittedly high, but I want cities instead of 95% farming populations like most of history. So that leaves a peasant family living off of 30 gp/year, and a man needs at least 2 lbs / day, which comes out to 3,200 lbs grain a year for 4 people. The farm will produce vegetables and chickens and stuff that aren't taxed, but even so, it's a hard life with a lot of porridge and oat cakes.

This leaves enough food left over that 25-50% of your population can live a better lifestyle in town; say 100 gp a year. From there you get nobles living off of 1 gp a day (hello adventurers!). You can hire soldiers for silver pieces per day; you can buy longswords for gold pieces; it all works out reasonably well.

Sure for most games it doesn't matter. But what if your players want to hire an army? Or run a kingdom? What if you just want to know how many soldiers that kingdom has? Then the price of flour should make some kind of sense. Instead of, you know, being able to hire a 12th level armored knight for less than a pound of flour a day...

[Yahzi]

Why does this guy keep making a bunch of threads ranting about the content of 3.0 edition books?
Maybe because we're in the 3E forum?

[King of Nowhere]

I'm working on one right now. As in my original post, it assumes 1 cp = 1 lb wheat and goes from there. Most things work out pretty well, though the price of a cow had to change.

I wanted to know if there were any canonical prices for flying mounts, which is how I wound up looking at the A&EG. As others have noted, the SRD isn't actually terrible; I've succeeded at justifying a lot of those prices.

But given how much work I am putting into my *free* price guide, I was just annoyed that someone got paid for such a sloppy job.

Thanks for the tip on milling. I'll have to figure out how to incorporate that, but it will be tough.

My research says that a decent medieval average was 8 bushels per acre, with a seed ratio of 1:4. That means a 40 acre farm nets 6,000 lbs of grain, after setting aside seed and crop rotation. Which is 60 gp a year for a peasant farmer.

I use a %50 sharecropper tax, which is admittedly high, but I want cities instead of 95% farming populations like most of history. So that leaves a peasant family living off of 30 gp/year, and a man needs at least 2 lbs / day, which comes out to 3,200 lbs grain a year for 4 people. The farm will produce vegetables and chickens and stuff that aren't taxed, but even so, it's a hard life with a lot of porridge and oat cakes.

This leaves enough food left over that 25-50% of your population can live a better lifestyle in town; say 100 gp a year. From there you get nobles living off of 1 gp a day (hello adventurers!). You can hire soldiers for silver pieces per day; you can buy longswords for gold pieces; it all works out reasonably well.

Sure for most games it doesn't matter. But what if your players want to hire an army? Or run a kingdom? What if you just want to know how many soldiers that kingdom has? Then the price of flour should make some kind of sense. Instead of, you know, being able to hire a 12th level armored knight for less than a pound of flour a day...

keep in mind a couple factors:
1) in real life, 90% of the population worked the fields because that was required to grow enough food ffor everyone. most of what one would grow, one would eat, and only a very small amount could be spared. So 50% taxes is unreasonable; farmers would not be able to feed. on the other hand, 50% taxes on what they earn from the little they sell is reasonable
2) magic could offer many ways to increase productivity. there is a low level spell increasing field productivity by a third already. this could mean more food. or it could mean population would grow and claim poorer land until it got back to subsistance farming, only with worse land and magic to compensate for it. or it could mean freeing hands from the fields would give nations the manpower to deal with all the stuff of the various monster manuals. or to wage war among them

[Yahzi]

keep in mind a couple factors:
I justify the departure for several reasons:

1) The world is far more dangerous than Earth. Monsters are a constant threat. Thus, people cannot spread out like they did here; they need the strength of towns and armies just to survive. In RL the enemy was mostly weather; even hostile invasions just meant you paid taxes to a different person. In D&D the enemy often wants to eat you.

2) The divide between nobility and commoner is vastly greater than on Earth. In RL the nobles merely had diet, equipment, education, and organization over the common people; in my take on D&D (the World of Prime) nobles also have class levels. Therefore the people accept a more servile and miserable existence.

3) Yes, Plant Growth is a god-send, having the same effect as modern fertilizer. It transforms poor serfs into peasants, and peasants into yeomen. Pretty much every single community should have a priest with the Plant domain. But of course the D&D books are, as usual, utterly unaware that the secondary effect of a 3rd level druid spell is the difference between Dark Age misery and Renaissance luxury. Just like they are unaware of the fact that Cure Minor Wounds - an orision! - is the single greatest change to life-expectancy and population growth.

It seems like the original authors had an unwritten house rule that magic didn't work in town; it only worked in dungeons. (Actually, didn't Ars Magica make that explicit?)

[ericgrau]

With the excessive detail core goes into to have rules for every basic thing you'll never use, I'm a bit surprised. But I suppose A & EG didn't put in as much thought. Core actually says that a pound of flour is 2 cp.

You also have to keep in mind that most commoners survive via subsistance farming, meaning that they grow food for themselves and effectively get it for wholesale or less. A commoner might also trade, sell or preserve/store their extras beyond what they need to survive. But most of what he produces is not sold, nor does he buy much.

So most likely the miller eats a lot of homemade bread besides what he sells. He probably purchases other produce too. Hirelings most likely purchase basic ingredients but cook for themselves and almost never buy a single pre-made meal. The DM should probably require the players to feed a hireling kept on board 24/7, or else give him breaks to shop and cook.

We forget because today it's the reverse, but DIY used to be the default for base needs.

[Yahzi]

With the excessive detail core goes into to have rules for every basic thing you'll never use.
I agree there are too many rules. I hate sub-systems. I prefer one mechanic to rule them all, and at the game table bind them!

But just a list of what stuff costs is really handy. It doesn't even have to be particularly realistic, just consistent.

One of the fundamental problems of the D&D mileu is that 95% of the entire human population were subsistence farmers. When you think D&D, you just don't picture an endless sea of dreary, miserable villages full of dirty, hungry, illiterate peasants. It's all wizards and castles and fancy dress parties. :smallbiggrin:

[Coretron03]

Actually, commoners are Literate, because the rules say that only barbarians are illiterate which is fixed by taking a level in any class, which includes commoners.

[Yahzi]

Actually, commoners are Literate, because the rules say that only barbarians are illiterate which is fixed by taking a level in any class, which includes commoners.
Ya, the default D&D setting is a 19th century English village... with mind-flayers.

[Blackhawk748]

One of the fundamental problems of the D&D mileu is that 95% of the entire human population were subsistence farmers. When you think D&D, you just don't picture an endless sea of dreary, miserable villages full of dirty, hungry, illiterate peasants. It's all wizards and castles and fancy dress parties. :smallbiggrin:

Well don't yo have a bleak view of the Middle Ages. Remember, these are the people who invented fairs.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you're constantly finding that something doesn't meet your expectations, you need to manage your expectations.

Or, I guess, spend so long working on something for yourself that you feel bitter about the amount of time you've given it. C'est la vie.

[venturer]

Cityscape and DMG II, give better wages for NPC and PC for different jobs and generally help with world building

[Yahzi]

If you're constantly finding that something doesn't meet your expectations, you need to manage your expectations.
It's asking too much that a professionally published book have an editor who read page 31 and page 62?


Or, I guess, spend so long working on something for yourself that you feel bitter about the amount of time you've given it. C'est la vie. No, I'm bitter about the fact that the people who made money off of our hobby couldn't be bothered to read what they wrote before cashing their checks.

I'm also pretty annoyed by being subject to internet psychoanalysis. Should I lower my expectations for how I should be treated? Do you find that an effective strategy for dealing with other people's inappropriate behavior?

[Psyren]

It's asking too much that a professionally published book have an editor who read page 31 and page 62?

No, I'm bitter about the fact that the people who made money off of our hobby couldn't be bothered to read what they wrote before cashing their checks.

Perhaps you didn't get your money's worth from 3.5 and PF books (because of wheat prices or whatever), but I'd wager that many of us did. So I'm quite happy with them cashing their checks and moving on to make more spells and feats instead of taking eons to perfect quasi-medieval economic theory.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm also pretty annoyed by being subject to internet psychoanalysis. Should I lower my expectations for how I should be treated? Do you find that an effective strategy for dealing with other people's inappropriate behavior?

Unfortunately, yes it is. As a perfectionist, I realized pretty early that the only way to get things done the way I want them is to do them myself. See also sturgeon's law.

[Yahzi]

Perhaps you didn't get your money's worth from 3.5 and PF books (because of wheat prices or whatever), but I'd wager that many of us did. So I'm quite happy with them cashing their checks and moving on to make more spells and feats instead of taking eons to perfect quasi-medieval economic theory.
Don't you expect consistency out of those spells and feats? I mean, if they published a 1st level spell that allowed unlimited castings of Wish, or a feat that allowed 2nd level rogues to steal the sun, wouldn't you be annoyed? Because that's what I'm asking for: that the stuff they write works with the other stuff they write in the same book.

You know: they didn't have to publish wheat prices at all. If they wanted to just make up spells and feats, they could have done that. Nothing stopping them! They could have made a book called "New Spells and Feats."

But they didn't. They made a book called "Arms and Equipment Guide." They chose to list food and hirelings, and then they did it inexcusably badly.

And here you are, telling me that because you got what you wanted, I have no right to be annoyed that I didn't get what I want; or more, that I can't even be annoyed that what I got was incoherent and useless.

I honestly find this bizarre. I pointed out a clear failure, and now I have half-a-dozen people making excuses for incoherent editing. What is this strange impulse to defend the inexcusable? It's not like I ragged on the whole system; several times I've stated that the SRD was actually workable. I've clearly put a lot of time and effort into the game; I'm giving away stuff for free solely in the hopes that other people will get enjoyment out of the game too.

But acknowledging that The Authorities screwed up in a particular book gets me comments about my personality flaws and screeds that I don't deserve competent editing for my money?

If I was interested in internet analysis, I would suggest this reflexive need to absolve the D&D authors of all possible wrongs was itself an interesting psychological phenomena.

But I'm not, so I won't. I'll finish my version in a few days and put it up on DriveThruRPG. And you can look at it if you want, and if it seems helpful, you can use it. But it doesn't have any feats or spells in it, because it's just a shopping guide, so you probably won't find it interesting.

[Psyren]

Don't you expect consistency out of those spells and feats? I mean, if they published a 1st level spell that allowed unlimited castings of Wish, or a feat that allowed 2nd level rogues to steal the sun, wouldn't you be annoyed?

Of course I would, but those hyperbolic examples don't exist, nor are they in any way comparable to messing up the price of wheat :smallconfused:



And here you are, telling me that because you got what you wanted, I have no right to be annoyed that I didn't get what I want; or more, that I can't even be annoyed that what I got was incoherent and useless.

I can't stop you from being annoyed. I'm just suggesting you channel all this energy somewhere more productive. You can take it or leave it, either way doesn't matter to me.



But I'm not, so I won't. I'll finish my version in a few days and put it up on DriveThruRPG. And you can look at it if you want, and if it seems helpful, you can use it. But it doesn't have any feats or spells in it, because it's just a shopping guide, so you probably won't find it interesting.

We agree on that much.

[Duke of Urrel]

Hey Yahzi,

You might be interested in a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428035-PCs-NPCs-amp-Economic-Injustice-in-D-amp-D-3-5) that I opened not long ago about about a similar topic.

I hope it helps!

[King of Nowhere]

If I was interested in internet analysis, I would suggest this reflexive need to absolve the D&D authors of all possible wrongs was itself an interesting psychological phenomena.


Are we reading the same forum? because I find complaints against the system, its creators and playtesters, like, all the times.

[Tipsy_Pooka]

I'll finish my version in a few days and put it up on DriveThruRPG.

I'd be interested in checking it out, if you do put it up there.

[Yahzi]

Of course I would, but those hyperbolic examples don't exist, nor are they in any way comparable to messing up the price of wheat :smallconfused:
They are exactly like messing up the price of wheat. A spell that breaks level barriers is exactly like a price list that says you can hire a 12th level knight for less than a pound of flour per day. It's game-breaking. It breaks the game if anybody tries to use it.

My players often buy food and hire soldiers. I guess yours don't, but it's really quite a common thing.


I can't stop you from being annoyed. I'm just suggesting you channel all this energy somewhere more productive. You can take it or leave it, either way doesn't matter to me.
But you can do a lot to lessen my annoyance. For instance, by not offering smug passive-aggressive life advice when I complain about sloppy professional editing.

Other people offered helpful comments. They pointed to other sources of prices, or talked about what the prices should be, or mentioned historical facts. A few of them even commiserated with me. Just because I said the A&EG was dumb was not a personal attack on you... unless you're one of the authors of that book?

[Yahzi]

Are we reading the same forum? because I find complaints against the system, its creators and playtesters, like, all the times.I meant that comment to be somewhat more targeted. In general I agree with you. More to the point, people often respond to the complaints with ways to fix the problem.

As I will be. "Merchants of Prime" is mostly finished; I just have to format it and go through a final editing. Hopefully some people will find it useful.

[Psyren]

They are exactly like messing up the price of wheat.

They're really, really not.



But you can do a lot to lessen my annoyance. For instance, by not offering smug passive-aggressive life advice when I complain about sloppy professional editing.

Other people offered helpful comments. They pointed to other sources of prices, or talked about what the prices should be, or mentioned historical facts. A few of them even commiserated with me. Just because I said the A&EG was dumb was not a personal attack on you... unless you're one of the authors of that book?

Given that I was in high school when AEG was published - no, I'm not one of the authors.

And no, I'm not going to commiserate with you either. I have little sympathy for people who get this worked up over the fictional price of fictional wheat in a fictional game.

[johnbragg]

Yahzi: If it's any consolation, there is a school of economists who argue that planning an economy is effectively impossible because of the difficulty of the task that the AEG assigned themselves, the simulation of an entire economy and setting the correct prices without market signaling mechanisms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

Psyren: I think Yahzi should be cut some amount of slack for being irritated that the AEG doesn't really do one of the things it sets out to do. (Even if the task is arguably impossible).

[Psyren]

You're right, I've wasted too much energy on this already. I'll peace out.

[Twurps]

Not to defend the AEG (haven't read it al that much/serious) but I would like to point out that consistent/logical pricing is a myth, not only in the gaming world, but in real life as well. I live in a house that has cost me roughly 4x my annual income. If I get in my car now, I can end up in a similar sized house costing less than a months wage before dark. Yet I'm still here. And that's not even facturing in magic, gods, creatures with treasure or the whole XP and level thing at all. After factoring that in, nothing should be coherent anymore.

On the topic of the feeding your mercenaries: They should feed themselves. That's what the wages are for after all. If they don't make enough to eat meat/bread/both, that's their problem, maybe they 'live of the land'. Something that's actually quite feasible in regions with the vast amounts of wilderness d&d usually offers. Or in d&d terms: something that can be easily achieved by a half decent 'survival check'. (Actually: 'take 10' is all you need)

[CharonsHelper]

Considering that most people in government making important decisions about economics have no idea how it works, I think that it's a bit much to demand such knowledge/consistency from an entirely made up system created by RPG game designers which is far from their systems' focus.

[Zanos]

yes, the designers made the game so that people could have an adventuring group go around in this tolkien-esque/fairy tale-esque world having adventures, and they designed all the rules with that in mind.

Who could have assumed that people would extrapolate the logical consequences implicated in the setting instead of taking it at face value? it would be like people playing monopoly declaring that they'll sleep in the middle of the street to avoid paying the rents. they simply failed to take into account the nature of their players in the first place.
Considering a lot of D&D rules work really hard to provide some degree of simulationism, that's not an unfair criticism. If the setting said everyone ate widgets at every meal and commoners made 2sp per day, but widgets costs 20gp per meal, you'd think something was up.


Considering that most people in government making important decisions about economics have no idea how it works, I think that it's a bit much to demand such knowledge/consistency from an entirely made up system created by RPG game designers which is far from their systems' focus.
People being able to afford food is not exactly the same level of economic mastery as managing an entire countries worth of complex economic restrictions and allowances.

[Psyren]

Considering that most people in government making important decisions about economics have no idea how it works, I think that it's a bit much to demand such knowledge/consistency from an entirely made up system created by RPG game designers which is far from their systems' focus.

My point exactly.



People being able to afford food is not exactly the same level of economic mastery as managing an entire countries worth of complex economic restrictions and allowances.

And yet, "people being able to afford food" is a pretty big problem in the real world, so clearly we haven't figured it out either.

[Zanos]

And yet, "people being able to afford food" is a pretty big problem in the real world, so clearly we haven't figured it out either.
I know that you know that isn't what I meant.

In case you didn't, if the setting assumes that the average farmer isn't going to die from starvation in a few days, they should be able to make enough to feed themselves and their families under normal conditions.

Also, hunger is a problem of distribution and transport rather than material cost if you really want to get into it.

[Psyren]

I know that you know that isn't what I meant.

In case you didn't, if the setting assumes that the average farmer isn't going to die from starvation in a few days, they should be able to make enough to feed themselves and their families under normal conditions.

Why is a farmer buying wheat?



Also, hunger is a problem of distribution and transport rather than material cost if you really want to get into it.

I would assume that the market price for something includes the cost of... getting it to market.

[Zanos]

Why is a farmer buying wheat?
Because the profession rules don't produce output other than gold, and farming isn't a craft. Now you could simply deduct the cost of the food the farmer and his family eats from his weekly income, but if that's in excess of his actual income you run into problems.


I would assume that the market price for something includes the cost of... getting it to market.
If you assume that you introduce another bug, where buying wheat in the frozen north costs the same as walking down the street to the local farmer.

[Psyren]

Because the profession rules don't produce output other than gold, and farming isn't a craft. Now you could simply deduct the cost of the food the farmer and his family eats from his weekly income, but if that's in excess of his actual income you run into problems.

This is an issue of premise. I don't presume that the market price of wheat is what the farmer who grows it is paying for it. So when you say something like "deduct the price from his income" you're coming at it from a completely different direction than I am.



If you assume that you introduce another bug, where buying wheat in the frozen north costs the same as walking down the street to the local farmer.

This is another issue of premise. I don't expect a game system that lays out every single permutation of the cost of something for every single climate or locale. Indeed, the whole point of the Appraise skill is that the prices for things listed in the rulebooks are not inviolate law. In extreme scenarios, you can even deviate from listed prices substantially. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)

[Yahzi]

On the topic of the feeding your mercenaries: They should feed themselves.
I get that you didn't read the book. But you might have bothered to read my opening post. As I noted there, the A&EG specifically states that you can hire a 12th level warrior, in full knight panoply, for less than a pound of flour a day.

That is game breaking. That is sloppy beyond measure. As Zanos noted, we don't need to simulate an entire economy. We just need a price list that gets within spitting distance. And, as I keep saying, the SRD wasn't nearly that bad (though buying a cow for 10gp and selling it for 300 gp as chunks of meat was not great). It's just on this book they decided to phone it in.

I'll be releasing Merchants of Prime soon, which probably goes into far more detail than most people care about; but it will have tables of prices that you can refer to without worrying that your players will decide a bushel of wheat is worth more than an army.

Also... if your mercenaries can feed themselves, then why in the heck are they working for you?!?



EDIT (More Ranting): From the introduction of the book: "We have carefully scrutinized them for game balance and obedience to the rules..." :smallmad:

[Blackhawk748]

Because the profession rules don't produce output other than gold, and farming isn't a craft. Now you could simply deduct the cost of the food the farmer and his family eats from his weekly income, but if that's in excess of his actual income you run into problems.

Except it won't be. I recall someone doing a build called Blackadder, where they showed how much money a normal person in DnD actually makes, and it was closer to like 30-40 gp a month just based on Profession.

[Yahzi]

Except it won't be. I recall someone doing a build called Blackadder, where they showed how much money a normal person in DnD actually makes, and it was closer to like 30-40 gp a month just based on Profession.
But that makes no sense, since the same rules that make that possible also state that hirelings make a few sp per day.

What does make sense is that PCs should make 1 gp a day. OK! They're nobles. However they go about making money, they should be able to pull in that much without raising eyebrows or breaking the game. Maybe they are bodyguards, or sell spells, or sing pretty, or just steal real good.

But they do that because they have class levels, not because they have profession skills. Profession skills earn you silver pieces per day, just like all the hirelings in the book.

That's the best way I came up with to resolve the issue.

[Twurps]

I get that you didn't read the book. But you might have bothered to read my opening post. As I noted there, the A&EG specifically states that you can hire a 12th level warrior, in full knight panoply, for less than a pound of flour a day.

That is game breaking. That is sloppy beyond measure. As Zona noted, we don't need to simulate an entire economy. We just need a price list that gets within spitting distance. And, as I keep saying, the SRD wasn't nearly that bad (though buying a cow for 10gp and selling it for 300 gp as chunks of meat was not great). It's just on this book they decided to phone it in.

I'll be releasing Merchants of Prime soon, which probably goes into far more detail than most people care about; but it will have tables of prices that you can refer to without worrying that your players will decide a bushel of wheat is worth more than an army.


Fist: I did read your post, and every post after carefully before responding.
Second: I don't have a problem with your rant, nor did I say I did. You might very well have a valid point that this doesn't make sense. I was merely pointing out that real world economics hardly make sense either. (Even to the point where we'd call it 'gamebreaking' if it was a game) That shouldn't stop you from changing it into something that does make sense.

Having said that, there are even situations in which your example does make sense:
I would imagine that in medieval times at certain locations (places with a large army passing by, along the routes of the crusaders for example) men-at-arms are extremely cheap, and food is very hard to come by and thus very expensive.

This is true to an extend even today in quite a few parts of the world. Try booking a hotel-room and ordering both dinner and breakfast in any touristic place in a lower developed country (the equivalent of 'a night in town in d&d). And compare your costs to the wages of local staff. It won't come out favorable for the staff I can assure you.


Also... if your mercenaries can feed themselves, then why in the heck are they working for you?!?
I can't speak for (the designers of) d&d, but in al ages up and including medieval times, people were mostly self sufficient (As someone already pointed out above). They don't need wages for day to day living, and as such, their wages don't need to be higher than the costs of flour or any other food item as purchased in a town. The reason they still work for others or sell excess supplies at a market is to save up money for the special items (a new plow for the farmer, a new sword for the hireling).

[Yahzi]

I was merely pointing out that real world economics hardly make sense either.
Real-world economics do make sense. Things generally sell for more than they cost; people who have jobs generally can afford to live. The fact that you or I don't understand Paul Krugman does not equate to real world economics being senseless.


(Even to the point where we'd call it 'gamebreaking' if it was a game)
It's true there are some exploits that desperately call for a DM to scream "Rocks fall everybody dies!" :smallbiggrin:


Having said that, there are even situations in which your example does make sense:
I would imagine that in medieval times at certain locations (places with a large army passing by, along the routes of the crusaders for example) men-at-arms are extremely cheap, and food is very hard to come by and thus very expensive.
Well, sure; but the book isn't talking about extreme situations. It's talking about normal prices.

Also, when men-at-arms cost less than food, there are no men-at-arms. There are only hungry bandits.


I can't speak for (the designers of) d&d, but in al ages up and including medieval times, people were mostly self sufficient
Armies are not self-sufficient.


They don't need wages for day to day living, and as such, their wages don't need to be higher than the costs of flour or any other food item as purchased in a town.
And yet: they will not work for you for less money than it costs to eat. This would seem to be obvious. It probably is obvious to you! But not, apparently, to WotC.

[The Random NPC]

keep in mind a couple factors:
1) in real life, 90% of the population worked the fields because that was required to grow enough food ffor everyone. most of what one would grow, one would eat, and only a very small amount could be spared. So 50% taxes is unreasonable; farmers would not be able to feed. on the other hand, 50% taxes on what they earn from the little they sell is reasonable
2) magic could offer many ways to increase productivity. there is a low level spell increasing field productivity by a third already. this could mean more food. or it could mean population would grow and claim poorer land until it got back to subsistance farming, only with worse land and magic to compensate for it. or it could mean freeing hands from the fields would give nations the manpower to deal with all the stuff of the various monster manuals. or to wage war among them

I'd like to point out that due to the difficulty in tracking sales, most taxes at that time were flat annual taxes. They were also frequetly based on proffession. So the blacksmith's taxes might be 100 arrows or 10 swords or something like that, while the farmer's taxes might be 10 bushels of wheat.

[johnbragg]

And yet: they will not work for you for less money than it costs to eat.

Unless you're supplying their room and board.

Or unless the DMG list costs are for the equivalent of staying in hotels and eating in restaurants, which is much more expensive than taking care of your own arrangements on a consistent basis. (Maybe you can find a fleabag motel for $50 a night. That comes out to $600 a month, which is still more than you'd pay for an apartment down the block from that motel.)

Care and feeding of your hirelings has dropped in importance since 1st edition.

[Zanos]

Except it won't be. I recall someone doing a build called Blackadder, where they showed how much money a normal person in DnD actually makes, and it was closer to like 30-40 gp a month just based on Profession.
I am fully aware of that. I was making an analogy.

[ShurikVch]

The A&EG has a page that lists wheat as 1 cp per pound. Every other grain is listed in sp or gp per pound: barley, which is something you feed to horses, is 1 gp per pound.

Most grains turned into flour are double the price, but a pound of wheat flour is listed at 3 gp. OK, fine, maybe they meant to list wheat at 1.5 gp per pound, which would make sense compared to barley and millet (but since the original source book clearly defines a lb of wheat as 1 cp, somebody must have changed it back before printing). So let's give them that typo.

Except... a miller makes 2 sp a day.

So that miller apparently takes all week to make 1 lb of wheat into 1 lb of flour? (It would be interesting to see the price of bread, but they don't provide it. 10 different spices starting with the letter C, but no bread).

But more to the point, what does that miller eat?!? They have page after page of hirelings and soldiers, who can be hired for silver pieces per day. And yet every single food item is listed in gold pieces per pound.

I realize we're not aiming for strict simulation here, but seriously. Why did no one look at page 31 and page 62 and go... "hmmm." Did none of their players ever hire a footman, and then try to purchase food for him?I understand A&EG isn't a history textbook, but historically - wheat bread was a thing of luxury
Common folk ate rye bread - when they were lucky
By the old saying: "Peasant doesn't starving during a grain harvest failure. He's starving during orache (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atriplex) harvest failure."
Also, common acorns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn) were part of medieval diet (and not just for peasants!)

[Elkad]

If you call a copper piece a penny, and use prices from when the US was still on the gold standard (I used 1913)

Flour, 3c/lb (since you lose a third grinding, that's 2c/lb for the wheat)
Potatoes, 2c/lb


Note that from a nutritional standpoint, the potatoes are a terrible deal if you buy them by weight, as they have 1/5th the calories per pound of wheat (or rice, barley, or any other grain). Mostly because they are 80% water and grains are 20% water.

But consider calories per acre as a farmer and it all changes. Potatoes are 2-3x the calorie yield per acre compared to wheat. They are just a lot harder to transport to town (or even worse, to haul behind your army).

[Blackhawk748]

But that makes no sense, since the same rules that make that possible also state that hirelings make a few sp per day.

Never said it made sense, just saying thats how it is. Im also fairly sure someone did the build simply to prove that DnDs economics don't make sense at all. I also know that theres a build called Commoner Lord which is a lvl 20 Commoner who has jacked Profession to such an extent that hes stupid rich and can own almost all of the land in a given world. (its a weird build, i know). I mean heres some napkin math:

A lvl 1 Commoner can have a profession value of +5 (4 for ranks and 1 for decent Wis) which means that any random schmuck will make 7 gp and 5 sp in a week if they get a 10. Now thats 30 gp a month (considering getting a 10) which means that in a few months they can get a Masterwork tool which gives them a +2 (making it a +7 now) which gets them more money.

None of this takes into account going up levels for XP gained from roleplaying interactions, so it'll go up as the years go on. Frankly Commoners should be expected to have made several hundred GP in a year not "rarely seen a gold piece" or whatever crap the book spouts out.


I am fully aware of that. I was making an analogy.

Ah, carry on then.

[johnbragg]

. Frankly Commoners should be expected to have made several hundred GP in a year not "rarely seen a gold piece" or whatever crap the book spouts out.

I think that's more a commentary on the rarity of gold coins compared to silver. In America, you rarely see a bill in circulation larger than a $20. If you have $50 or $100 bills, you may not be able to spend it and get change at the first store you try.

If you consider a profession like blacksmithing or cobbling or baking, a 2nd level Expert is averaging 10 gp a week (10 + 5 ranks + 1 Wis + 2 synergy + 2 tools = 20 on the check), but probably doesn't see a single gold coin, because none of his customers are paying him in gold.

In Britain from 1816 to 1971, prestige items were priced in guineas rather than pounds sterling. (The guinea was a gold coin produced in the 1600s and 1700s, which was worth more than 1 pound of sterling silver. The guinea's value was fixed at 5% more than a pound in 1816.)

[Blackhawk748]

I think that's more a commentary on the rarity of gold coins compared to silver. In America, you rarely see a bill in circulation larger than a $20. If you have $50 or $100 bills, you may not be able to spend it and get change at the first store you try.

If you consider a profession like blacksmithing or cobbling or baking, a 2nd level Expert is averaging 10 gp a week (10 + 5 ranks + 1 Wis + 2 synergy + 2 tools = 20 on the check), but probably doesn't see a single gold coin, because none of his customers are paying him in gold.

In Britain from 1816 to 1971, prestige items were priced in guineas rather than pounds sterling. (The guinea was a gold coin produced in the 1600s and 1700s, which was worth more than 1 pound of sterling silver. The guinea's value was fixed at 5% more than a pound in 1816.)

That would make more sense, its just the way they said it (as i recall anyway) made them sound stupid poor.

[johnbragg]

That would make more sense, its just the way they said it (as i recall anyway) made them sound stupid poor.

Not as stupid as it reads. They were trying to give DMs the option of treating PCs trying to spend their dragon-hoard loot like we'd treat people trying to buy stuff at the supermarket with Bitcoins or antique silver coins.

[Psyren]

The simple solution is to assume two things:

1) Commoners probably get different results from Profession than PCs do (this eliminates the Commoner Land Baron above.)

2) Market prices for basic goods are not necessarily the prices the producers of said goods have to pay. This eliminates the "farmer who can't afford grain" problem.

As for why the rules don't spell this out - they're written from a PC's perspective, and PCs usually aren't farmers. (Even if they were, they aren't anymore.)

[Zanos]

IIRC the profession details came out to be that a framer who wasn't being raided or insanely taxed did fairly well for themselves. Not so well as to be able to afford magic items, but they could comfortably feed their family and maybe afford a healing potion or two for an emergency.

That seems about right to me honestly. Here's the post I think we're referring to (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443776-D-amp-D-Commoners-Make-Plenty-of-Money). I actually noticed an error re-reading it; crafting costs 1/3rd the price in materials, not half.

Also that 1 SP per day figure was a minimum rather than an average or median wage.

[Blackhawk748]

IIRC the profession details came out to be that a framer who wasn't being raided or insanely taxed did fairly well for themselves. Not so well as to be able to afford magic items, but they could comfortably feed their family and maybe afford a healing potion or two for an emergency.

That seems about right to me honestly. Here's the post I think we're referring to (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443776-D-amp-D-Commoners-Make-Plenty-of-Money). I actually noticed an error re-reading it; crafting costs 1/3rd the price in materials, not half.

Also that 1 SP per day figure was a minimum rather than an average or median wage.

Im now curious so lets figure out what a 'normal' farmer would need to pay per year to live and how much he walks away with. We're going to assume that their Profession check is a 17 each week (4 skill 1 Wis and 2 from an inherited Masterwork Tool) to keep me sane. So thats 8 gp and 5 sp to spend. Lets look at the breakdown:

Loaf of Bread(a loaf of bread should be ok for a week)-2 CP
Cheese 1lb(i buy Cheese in 5lb bloxks and thats lasts like 3 weeks)- 2 SP

So thats 2 SP and 2 CP per week as we will assume hes drinking water. So at the end of a 52 week year or farmer has spent: 11GP 4SP and 4CP and we can assume that he made 442GP before taxes. Now lets say that the Lord takes half of that, leaving our Farmer with 209 GP 5SP and 6CP at the end of the year once cost is included. "But wait" you say "Doesnt he need a draft animal?" True, so lets say he inherited the Mule and now we just pay for food:

7 days of feed: 3SP 5CP

Which changes our math to: 5SP and 7CP per week which means that his yearly costs are 29GP 6SP and 4CP, which means that, after taxes, he walks away with: 191GP 5SP 4CP.

Not bad. Now, thats enough to buy three potions of cure light wounds in a year and still have cash left over. Realistically a potion of cure minor would be fine or he's gonna need a remove disease spell, which is way out his price range. But lets say that doesnt happen. Lets say our intrepid farmer is blessed with decent stats health and so is fine, so he just saves his money. What magic item would a farmer want? How about an item of plant growth? Ok, so what would a 1/week item of plant growth cost? Im not sure, cuz it only does it in days, but lets say it costs half of what a 1/day one costs, which would make it 3000GP.

Yeesh. Still, if he scrimped and saved for about 15 years, he'd have a 1/week Use activated item of plant growth that he could pass down to his progeny. If he ever found time for that.

So, a fairly normal commoner can quite easily have just shy of 200gp a year in spendable income. Not bad for a dirt grubber.

[Crichton]

Ok, so as the OP says, the A&EG prices look silly, but if those are canon, why aren't we all driving our DM's crazy by profiting from it. Go spend 1gp for 100lbs of wheat, hire a miller for 2sp per day. Even if it takes him a week (unlikely - 100lbs of wheat isn't that much) to mill the wheat into flour, we've only spent 1gp, and even if the milling process loses 1/3 of it as the other post says, we now have 200gp worth of flour to sell. Bam. Instant profit. We've spent 2gp (1gp for the wheat, 1gp for the miller) to make 200gp.


1cp=1lb wheat
100cp(1gp)=100lbs wheat
100lbs wheat =66.7 lbs flour
66.7lbs flour =200gp


Hire an army of millers and buy tons of wheat and you'll be richer than any dungeon could ever make you in no time! Forget delving deep into the dangerous mines and dungeons and spooky castles. Just be a businessman! That's where all the profits are at!

(I know, I know, the PHB lists flour at 2cp/lb, making the whole endeavor worthless, but at AE&G prices, this will make us all so rich!)

[Yahzi]

Loaf of Bread(a loaf of bread should be ok for a week)-2 CP.
Your farmer is living off of 1 loaf of bread and 1 pound of cheese for a whole week?

[Blackhawk748]

Your farmer is living off of 1 loaf of bread and 1 pound of cheese for a whole week?

I should probably double those, but ya. Honestly its not far off of what i eat. No seriously, i pretty much just eat bread and cheese....ok and pasta, but thats sorta like bread :smalltongue:

[Tipsy_Pooka]

Ok, so as the OP says, the A&EG prices look silly, but if those are canon, why aren't we all driving our DM's crazy by profiting from it.

If we're going down that road, purchase 50 4-lb chickens at 2 cp apiece (1 gp). Yield 3lb of meat/chicken from butchering them all (total: 150-lb). Sell meat at 6sp/lb for a grand total of 90gp. Right about the share one should get from an EL:1 encounter...



Hire an army of millers and buy tons of wheat and you'll be richer than any dungeon could ever make you in no time! Forget delving deep into the dangerous mines and dungeons and spooky castles. Just be a businessman! That's where all the profits are at!


This might also be why, historically, millers were some of the richest people in the village.

[Tipsy_Pooka]

Your farmer is living off of 1 loaf of bread and 1 pound of cheese for a whole week?

I usually calculate a well-off freeman consuming about 2-3 lb of grain (this includes beer/ale), 1/2 lb of meat/cheese, and 1/2 lb of fruits/vegetables per day. This should provide about 3000-4000 calories/day, which would be required to maintain a VERY active lifestyle.

[Yahzi]

I should probably double those, but ya. Honestly its not far off of what i eat. No seriously, i pretty much just eat bread and cheese....ok and pasta, but thats sorta like bread :smalltongue:
No, you should not just double those. A loaf of bread and a pound of cheese a day is practically a starvation diet. Especially for the amount of physical labor people did in the middle ages.

Tipsy_Pooka is correct. Knights ate about 5,000 calories a day, because they worked hard. I set 2 lbs of food a day as the minimum for my economic guide, mostly because it was an already canonical established weight. It's not as accurate as Pooka's example, but it's within spitting distance, and it made my numbers work out.

[Svata]

Unless you're supplying their room and board.

Or unless the DMG list costs are for the equivalent of staying in hotels and eating in restaurants, which is much more expensive than taking care of your own arrangements on a consistent basis. (Maybe you can find a fleabag motel for $50 a night. That comes out to $600 a month, which is still more than you'd pay for an apartment down the block from that motel.)


Um. $50*$30 is $1500, not $600.

[Vaz]

I should probably double those, but ya. Honestly its not far off of what i eat. No seriously, i pretty much just eat bread and cheese....ok and pasta, but thats sorta like bread :smalltongue:Using a 400g loaf as the example, you're looking at around 20 slices of bread. With 4 slices of bread for 4 meals a day (early breakfast, morning food, late afternoon, before bed), you're looking at going through the majority of a loaf every day. You could probably half the bread if you go for the typical ploughmans lunch, and that water would need to be drawn. And the farmer would have to pay for the number of people who worked on the farm, as well as providing feed for animals.

[Blackhawk748]

Using a 400g loaf as the example, you're looking at around 20 slices of bread. With 4 slices of bread for 4 meals a day (early breakfast, morning food, late afternoon, before bed), you're looking at going through the majority of a loaf every day. You could probably half the bread if you go for the typical ploughmans lunch, and that water would need to be drawn. And the farmer would have to pay for the number of people who worked on the farm, as well as providing feed for animals.

I was going off of two meals, as thats what i eat (and i work in a factory). Also i was figuring this was a one man farm.

[Tipsy_Pooka]

I was going off of two meals, as thats what i eat (and i work in a factory). Also i was figuring this was a one man farm.

Most of Medieval Europe subsisted on two meals a day (lunch and dinner). The wealthy might enjoy snacks throughout the day, but that was a luxury the lower-classes did without.

[RolkFlameraven]

I always thought the 'almost never seen gold piece' was more that many things are bartered then 'sold' in the most part.

So Chickens given over for wheat or pigs or what have you over coins trading hands. I could be wrong but that's how I always read it. After all the DMG does go into wealth not always being in coin, but goods, land, favors and such.

[Tipsy_Pooka]

I always thought the 'almost never seen gold piece' was more that many things are bartered then 'sold' in the most part.

So Chickens given over for wheat or pigs or what have you over coins trading hands. I could be wrong but that's how I always read it. After all the DMG does go into wealth not always being in coin, but goods, land, favors and such.

Villages tended to be poor in coin and thus almost exclusively relied on the barter system. So, yes, most transactions at the local-level were conducted for commodities "in-kind". The local-lord, and some wealthy freemen, might be the only ones with actual coin.

I have also done this to more than one group of PCs attempting to sell their "loot" at some backwater village. "I'll give you 10 cows for that ring..."

[Duke of Urrel]

I am amused that my old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428035-PCs-NPCs-amp-Economic-Injustice-in-D-amp-D-3-5) has attracted some attention! Please don't post new comments there, though, because thread necromancy is verboten. (I won't respond to anything you say to me unless you post it here.)

Since posting that thread, I have solved for myself (to my own satisfaction, but not necessarily for anyone else's) the problems that I posted about. To state it simply, I require my PCs to pay three silver pieces for room and board in addition to standard hireling wages for all hirelings whose standard daily wage (as it appears on page 105 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) is lower than eight silver pieces.

I don't mind vast differences between the in-game economy and any real-life economy. What I care about is in-game logic. If something makes sense in the game, then I'm okay with it. If something in the game economy really, really doesn't make sense to me, I may change it, but it's amazing what crazy things can make sense in a world with magic in it.

To quote myself, here's something I said in that thread that sums up my concerns about game logic.


I surely don't want to subject my players to lengthy, boring descriptions of the political economy of my world. However, as the DM, I want to know myself how it works, so that I can make things make sense to my players. There's a lot of randomness built into the game of D&D. I like to balance that with orderliness, because it gives the players more autonomy when they can make good guesses about what to expect, at least part of the time.

One example of the need for orderliness is the placement of traps. Sure, a DM can put traps in any unexpected place, but the players have more autonomy when the traps appear in likely places, so that the players' success or failure to avoid them depends on their skills and not merely upon luck.

[Yahzi]

I require my PCs to pay three silver pieces for room and board
I don't see how that helps. Either flour is 3 gp a pound, in which case those 3 sp aren't enough; or it's 2 cp a pound, in which case you don't really need to inflate hireling prices.

I completely agree with your larger point, though. It's not so much realism we want as consistency. Just give us a price sheet that *somebody* has done the homework on, and we're good!

I'm halfway through formatting Merchants of Prime, wherein I resolve all of these problems while sticking as close to canonical prices and numbers as possible.

[ericgrau]

No, you should not just double those. A loaf of bread and a pound of cheese a day is practically a starvation diet. Especially for the amount of physical labor people did in the middle ages.

Tipsy_Pooka is correct. Knights ate about 5,000 calories a day, because they worked hard. I set 2 lbs of food a day as the minimum for my economic guide, mostly because it was an already canonical established weight. It's not as accurate as Pooka's example, but it's within spitting distance, and it made my numbers work out.

The bread is 1,000 calories but the cheese is 1,800.

I do find it odd that a day's trail rations only weigh 1 lb. Since it's all dry food that's not too unreasonable... if you're not walking all day. Maybe call them camping rations instead of trail rations and I'll forgive it, or require 2 lbs. on the go and 1 lb. if not. If it's all nuts you could get away with 1 lb., except that it'd wreak havoc on your stomach. More likely it also includes hard tack, dried fruit and/or jerky too. So yeah, 2 lbs. on the go.

Not to mention water, that weighs quite a bit more. You could easily hit a gallon or two if travelling, 8-16 lbs. if the players don't have access to a stream they could be in big trouble. If they do have access to a stream, they could also be in big trouble from disease. That's where you better be carrying vinegar or wine if you're not high enough level to spam remove disease yet. Those seem to be missing from everyone's character sheets but were common back in the day.

Actually I think you should give every player a premade traveler's kit and move on to the real game, but I am also one who is strongly against ignoring encumbrance. Tracking bulky food and water are how you win wars. Especially sieges. Hmm... yet I just DM'ed one and it didn't last long enough for such things to matter. Repairs turned out to be the biggest logistical issue.

As for setting up a world:
- PC travelling kit cost and weight. Including daily rations cost and weight. Including water sterilization. So let's say 2 lbs. a day and not-worth-tracking-above-level-one gp. 20 lbs. a day in a desert, cuz water. Maybe 10 lbs. if travelling at night in a desert.
- Commoner/hireling/etc. income. Cheap food cost per day if they don't grow their own.
- Housing costs both to buy and rent from a landlord. Ditto for a farm.
- Inn sleep and food costs per day (higher than the above). Poor, moderate and fancy.
Write it all down on a convenient table, flip to it when needed, mostly ignore for high level PCs. Mostly for NPCs and level 1.

I wouldn't even get into the price of wheat and so on until you get involved with country to country trade. For example the major trade goods of country A are x,y and z. The produce m pounds a year which sell for about n gp. And you don't get into that unless it's relevant. For example there's a trade blockade due to conflict, or a famine.

[flare'90]

Not to mention water, that weighs quite a bit more. You could easily hit a gallon or two if travelling, 8-16 lbs. If the players don't have access to a stream they could be in big trouble. If they do have access to a stream, they could also be in big trouble from disease. That's where you better be carrying vinegar or wine if you're not high enough level to spam remove disease yet. Those seem to be missing from everyone's character sheets but were common back in the day.

Create Water solves the clean water problem really well and for a low opportunity cost. You still need to lug around containers, but at least you can replenish on the go.
I also find strange that your players' PCs don't carry around wine or ale, mine do all the time. Vinegar is basically unseen though.

[ericgrau]

Very good point. I should say "make sure you have waterskins and create water prepared at all times cuz rivers have germs" and be done with that part. As long as the party has a cleric, druid or paladin. Actually I'm doing 5e now so they have to set aside a first level spell each day and it's no longer on the paladin list.

My players do have plenty of wine that they've found in treasure. I give the gp value (very little) and they sell some of it but I've noticed they keep some too. There's a lot of wine, cheese and musical instruments on the 5e treasure tables actually.

Hmmm... better way I think is to assume they've already taking care of it one way or another, via cheap wine or magic, and I won't ever bug them with it unless both of those disappear. I already make them carry around basic gear which is already part of the PHB adventuring kits. Encumbrance has come up exactly one time only because one player is a travelling scam artist that needs a variety of items for the scams. I suggested saddlebags.

My basic method is I have loose rules but we don't pay attention to them except when necessary. Everyone has their adventuring kits? Everyone bought their food? Ok good, moving on. I won't ditch the details entirely because verisimilitude is part of strategy/tactics. My house rules actually have a brief "training, eating, pooping, etc." section. Yeup pooping. As in "We assume it happens automatically without discussing it but someone better have a shovel." (also, already in one of the PHB kits)

[Elkad]

The bread is 1,000 calories but the cheese is 1,800.

I do find it odd that a day's trail rations only weigh 1 lb. Since it's all dry food that's not too unreasonable... if you're not walking all day. Maybe call them camping rations instead of trail rations and I'll forgive it, or require 2 lbs. on the go and 1 lb. if not. If it's all nuts you could get away with 1 lb., except that it'd wreak havoc on your stomach. More likely it also includes hard tack, dried fruit and/or jerky too. So yeah, 2 lbs. on the go.

Not to mention water, that weighs quite a bit more. You could easily hit a gallon or two if travelling, 8-16 lbs. if the players don't have access to a stream they could be in big trouble. If they do have access to a stream, they could also be in big trouble from disease. That's where you better be carrying vinegar or wine if you're not high enough level to spam remove disease yet. Those seem to be missing from everyone's character sheets but were common back in the day.



Yup, for hard travel, it probably needs to be 3-8x that weight. Even if you assume the food is nearly all fat. (9/4ths the calorie density of carbs), you still need a couple pounds.
Guys under heavy loads eat nearly pure fat if they can. Sherpas hauling packs up Everest eat sticks of butter like most people would eat a candy bar.

A 220lb man with 100lbs of gear (18str, so light load) is going to be burning nearly 1000 calories an hour walking at speed, plus a couple thousand calories of base metabolic rate, setting up camp, etc.
10,000 calories a day to maintain his weight.

Which means about 2.5lbs of pure fat for an 8 hour march and 16 hours of rest. Or 6lbs of grain.

Carrying nothing but food. Assume you have Create Water at will, so never carry any, and walk 8 hours a day. As your pack gets lighter you eat slightly less each day, so we'll add at 20% fudge factor.

Fill your pack with a mix of grains. 1500kc/lb. 6lbs/day. With the 20% for an ever-lightening pack, you can walk for 20 days.

Fill your pack with Pemmican, Bacon, or similar. 2500kc/lb. 4lbs/day. 30 days.

Seal/whale blubber is even better. 3lbs/day. 40 days.

Fill it with pure rendered lard, and you get close to 50 days, but you have a protein deficiency.

Oh and we probably need to assume our "man" is actually a Half-Orc, and that Half-Orcs don't have the gene deficiency that Humans do, so he doesn't need Vitamin C
A human needs vitamin C. Which means frozen meat eaten raw (or fresh of course), or foraging for greens as he travels.

[Yahzi]

Write it all down on a convenient table, flip to it when needed
If only someone would do that work in advance... oh, I am. :smallbiggrin:


Create Water solves the clean water problem
There isn't actually a clean water problem in the wild. In Scotland you can just drink out of the streams. It's really only industrialization and cities that create a problem, or some biomes like swamps.


Yup, for hard travel, it probably needs to be 3-8x that weight
I kept the 2 lb for normal rations and 1 lb iron rations just because I wanted to adhere as close as possible to the canon, and they're not *terrible*. On the other hand I've reduced the amount pack horses can carry, because their numbers were just insane. So increasing the weight for food would be a double-whammy. As it is, supplying an army more than 300 miles away is like, hard.

Let's just pretend the iron rations are Lembas. :smallbiggrin:

Water is not normally an issue. There's lots of it the wild (except for deserts). Medieval armies marched from watering hole to watering hole.

[flare'90]

There isn't actually a clean water problem in the wild. In Scotland you can just drink out of the streams. It's really only industrialization and cities that create a problem, or some biomes like swamps.

That really depends on the area you travel in. I don't expect a river downstream from a city to be pleasant to drink, while a stream in the mountains, fed by glacial runoff, will be drinkable without problems. Deserts present their own problems as well.
The benefit of create water is the possibility to replenish water on demand and without care of the local conditions.

[ericgrau]

You can totally drink from a clear water stream and be fine and disease free for weeks, until you're not. Straight from a spring is probably a bit better, but most water is going to be drunken downstream after it has passed through miles of wildlife. Modern day Scottland chlorinates its water too. It was standard practice for the Roman army to add vinegar and a sweetener to all their water. In the Bible there's a recommendation to add wine to so-and-so's water instead of only drinking water like he was doing. Because of so-and-so's frequent upset stomachs. IIRC the Greek word here could mean wine, wine vinegar or fresh grape juice btw, but was usually the first two. And in Ancient Greece at meals it was common to have wine diluted in water. IIRC other places often relied on beer. Now we chlorinate, or sketchy areas of the world boil their water. My memory could be failing on parts of this but basically drinking plain water all the time is a modern thing. Sure it seems like many people drank plain water too, but there were well known negative consequences. Better for the DM to say "You do whatever easy thing to deal with water quality and I won't have to roll on a disease table for a small chance of disease."

Btw if you're camping don't actually drink from streams in the wild and expect to be fine for weeks. Your immune system probably isn't ready for the sudden change and conditions range from passable to extremely dangerous.

[Elkad]

If only someone would do that work in advance... oh, I am. :smallbiggrin:


There isn't actually a clean water problem in the wild. In Scotland you can just drink out of the streams. It's really only industrialization and cities that create a problem, or some biomes like swamps.

Sure, because every villager in creation isn't crapping in the streams any more.



I kept the 2 lb for normal rations and 1 lb iron rations just because I wanted to adhere as close as possible to the canon, and they're not *terrible*. On the other hand I've reduced the amount pack horses can carry, because their numbers were just insane. So increasing the weight for food would be a double-whammy. As it is, supplying an army more than 300 miles away is like, hard.

Let's just pretend the iron rations are Lembas. :smallbiggrin:

The weights for pack horses look fine to me, or a bit light. 150lbs for light. 230 for mules. Rule of thumb is 20% of the animal's weight, somewhat higher for Mules and Ponies, to keep them at a safe long-term load (Which in game terms should be a Light load)


Water is not normally an issue. There's lots of it the wild (except for deserts). Medieval armies marched from watering hole to watering hole.

And got dysentery or typhoid or whatever else at a lot of them.

Of course water quality is manageable with magic. And much mitigated with even basic sanitation.

[Deadline]

There isn't actually a clean water problem in the wild. In Scotland you can just drink out of the streams. It's really only industrialization and cities that create a problem, or some biomes like swamps.

ericgrau touched on this, but it's really not safe to drink water out in the wild, even if it's far away from industrialized pollution sources, because mother nature hates you and wants to kill you. Or in this case at least make you sick. Make sure any water you drink in the backcountry is sanitized in some way. Filter it, treat it with iodine tablets, or just plain boil it, but avoid just drinking it straight from the source (https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/index.html). You might get away with it once or twice, but sooner or later you are at least going to get Giardia, and probably worse.

If you have some access to water that isn't surface water, that's the safest bet, but even then (depending on what's had access to it before you), drinking it untreated can cause you issues.

[ericgrau]

Yes in case it isn't clear, never ever drink untreated stream water except in an emergency or if you are at risk of being stuck in the wilderness (and then see a doctor just to be safe).

The risk is actually quite low (https://healthcare.utah.edu/the-scope/shows.php?shows=0_vgk7w6qn), but who wants to take any risk at all? Plus a nasty parasite may stay with you a long time and you may not even know it's there, at least not at first. Or better yet just have iodine tablets in your backpack at all times and don't take any risk.

Likewise if DMing you can have low risk disease tables, but why would players want to deal with anything above 0% risk when they can easily disinfect or make all their water? Not too mention extraordinary diseases if your DM is mean.

[Mordaedil]

Maybe because we're in the 3E forum?
I just don't see it as a relevant thing to do, because the edition is dead and gone, honestly. It is intellectually dishonest to approach it as anything but a relic of the past, far too late to do anything with. Yet you seem to hold some sort of grievance, as if somehow we can change or demand change to a book that is no longer in print.

I think it's a bit odd for a game that is pushing up the daisies. It's an ex-game. People play it, sure, but nobody is printing new things for this edition any longer. Nor for the edition after that. And everything since then has been using entirely new rules for what this rant covers.

I guess I just don't get what you are proposing be done about it.

[Blymurkla]

To chip in on the debate on drinking water in the wild:
It is standard practice among hikers, hunters, rain-deer keeping Sami people and who-ever else that visits the Scandinavian mountains to simply drink out of pretty much any stream. Nobody carries any means of purifying water, nor boils it.

Climate change and change in travelling habits are about to change this, but up until very recently the risk of contracting anything was slim to none.

I just want to point out that a patch of nature isn't necessarily the same as a different patch of nature.

If you want your fantasy nature to be without parasites and bacteria under normal circumstances (a large, dead animal a mile upstream ain't normal circumstances), know that there real world are precedence.

[Yahzi]

Yes in case it isn't clear, never ever drink untreated stream water
Agreed! I wasn't actually suggesting that people do this. I was just pointing out that in the old days, people totally took that risk all the time. As Blymurkla points out, there are still places where it's pretty safe.

But nobody in the medieval world purified their water. They didn't know they had to, and for the most part, they didn't have to. Which is good, because carrying your own water on horseback is pretty much impossible.


Which in game terms should be a Light load
I went for 20% as a Medium load. Light implies they don't suffer any movement penalty.


I guess I just don't get what you are proposing be done about it.
This entire forum is dedicated to 3E. People come on here and talk about their campaigns, ask for builds, and have huge long discussions about RAW and RAI. All of that looks pretty lively for an ex-game.

What I propose to do about it is to print something new. And I have. It's called Merchants of Prime (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/64423/Ye-Olde-Shoppe), you can get it free from DriveThruRPG (though it's currently listed under it's old name of Ye Olde Shoppe), and I guarantee it's better than the A&EG. Maybe not perfect, but better. And look - if you don't like it, then double your money back! :smallbiggrin: