Best targets for Throw Anything + Returning Throw?

[chimaeraUndying]

I've been trying to figure out the best (read: silliest) ways to use these two feats in conjunction, and I figured I should turn to y'all for advice on it.

My original thought was to build some kind of psionic buffer who flings their allies at a target on what amounts to a bungee cord, then the ally (who's delayed their action until after mine) gets to essentially skip their move action since they're already right next to whatever they're gonna attack, after which they'll snap back to me in short order. Sadly, the GM ruled that (live) people aren't considered "objects" for the purposes of either feat, so I can't lob my friends into impending doom melee range. Thus, I've broadened my search: I wanna know everything that's good for hitting a foe (or the square they're standing in!) and then returning to me!

If it matters, the party's currently at level 6 (but in the event I have to roll this backup character out, we'll probably be 7 or 8) with full WBL (and easy crafting access!) and all PF core/3PP stuff available, as well as some sparingly used 3.5 content (that has to be approved on a case-by-case basis).

[Anxe]

Get fire immunity and start throwing balls of lava.

[chimaeraUndying]

Is there an easy way to produce lava and a safe way to store it?

[Zancloufer]

Is there an easy way to produce lava and a safe way to store it?

Major Creation + Any container with Fire Immunity? Adamatine Bucket with some sort of Hardening enchantment/spell or Fire Resit 10 would take 0 damage even if it was submerged in lava.

[chimaeraUndying]

I think major creation would be a bit out of reach without some naff multiclassing (or delegating a party member to help out with it), since Returning Throw needs psionic focus to work and therefore a psionic class (or a feat that lets a non-psion generate psi focus; I think Pathfinder has that?).

I'm liking the lava idea outside of that hiccup though!

[Anxe]

While major creation could produce lava with a liberal interpretation of the ability to produce stone, I would not allow that as a DM. The main reason being that another spell exists specifically for creating lava that's level 9, transmute rock to lava. Unfortunately the spell kind of sucks.

To really go the lava route you're better off designing a custom magic item with your DM that either creates lava or preserves it. Acid is a way around the lava problem as its available to level 1 adventurers, but you'd need to buy a ton of it.

Taking your original question a little more seriously, your best options for throwing then will probably be the biggest weapon you have available (greatsword). Mix in Power Attack and Brutal Throw (and probably Shock Trooper). Suddenly you're a ranged Power Attacking threat. A big rock might do a little better.

Goofy suggestions informed by my 3.5 knowledge)
Bag of Devouring: Works great half the time and if you have good enough aim.
Portable Hole: They fall in and then you close it with your move action. Throwing large pieces of cloth to land beneath people will require some suspension of disbelief.
A Figurine of Wondrous Power or Bag of Tricks: Throw it and activate the command word. The beast grapples the foe and then returns to your hand with the foe coming along for the ride. You then use the rest of your attacks on the poor grappled bastard (Your DM seems like they wouldn't allow this).
Bead of Force: This one is interesting. I'm not exactly sure how your DM would rule the interaction works (does the resilient sphere return? Does the baddy come along for the ride?), but it could prove useful either way.
Folding Boat: I think you know what you do with this one.
Iron Bands of Binding or Rope of Entaglement: Similar to the previous ones. Does the baddy come along for the ride or not?

[Celestia]

Sadly, the GM ruled that (live) people aren't considered "objects" for the purposes of either feat, ...
Throw zombies. Eliminate their one action limit. *nods*

[chimaeraUndying]

While major creation could produce lava with a liberal interpretation of the ability to produce stone, I would not allow that as a DM. The main reason being that another spell exists specifically for creating lava that's level 9, transmute rock to lava. Unfortunately the spell kind of sucks.

Yeah, seems like lava is regrettably off the table.



Taking your original question a little more seriously, your best options for throwing then will probably be the biggest weapon you have available (greatsword). Mix in Power Attack and Brutal Throw (and probably Shock Trooper). Suddenly you're a ranged Power Attacking threat. A big rock might do a little better.

I could do an actual for-real combat build, I suppose. I was eyeing the DSP Psionics Unleashed take on Half-Giant, since it gets me Powerful Build, and possibly add Monkey Grip (which shouldn't be too much trouble to get approved) so I have a hand free for throwing something else if my irrationally large boomerang sword isn't doing the trick.


Iron Bands of Binding or Rope of Entaglement: Similar to the previous ones. Does the baddy come along for the ride or not?
Now that's a fun question to get an answer for. It'd be quite handy if it does lug the target back to me, especially if I can argue a particularly open definition of "moving through space" for the purpose of provoking AoOs...


Throw zombies. Eliminate their one action limit. *nods*

Funnily enough, the GM mostly-banned any sort of undead raising because I started making inquiries into the feasibility of starting a zombindustrial revolution with my current character.

[Psyren]

I suggest asking your GM exactly what this 'combo' can work with. By RAW, Returning Throw only works with "weapons," and Improvised Weapons don't actually qualify.


Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat...

[Celestia]

Funnily enough, the GM mostly-banned any sort of undead raising because I started making inquiries into the feasibility of starting a zombindustrial revolution with my current character.
I like the way you think.

[Anxe]

I suggest asking your GM exactly what this 'combo' can work with. By RAW, Returning Throw only works with "weapons," and Improvised Weapons don't actually qualify.

He's doing the Pathfinder version. It works with anything. I made the same mistake, but you can't tell because i edited it before anyone saw. <_<

[Psyren]

He's doing the Pathfinder version. It works with anything. I made the same mistake, but you can't tell because i edited it before anyone saw. <_<

Not sure what you mean; everything I quoted came from Pathfinder. Returning Throw specifies weapons, and all Throw Anything lets you do is ignore penalties when using non-weapons. Of course, if your GM is cool with you boomeranging whatever, then this becomes moot.

[chimaeraUndying]

Pathfinder's iteration of Throw Anything lets you ignore penalties when using an improvised ranged weapon (not a non-weapon), and the SRD's description of improvised weapons (incl. ranged versions) reads as such:


Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object... An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

I clipped out the description of approximating such a weapon's damage for brevity. Essentially, it seems as though any object becomes a weapon when you intend to use it as such and is then a viable "target" for the effect of Returning Throw, which is the understanding the GM has offered (and why I can't use people as weapons, since creatures aren't objects).

[Psyren]

I've explained my reasoning using the same quote you did, so we'll probably have to agree to disagree. I doubt DSP intended for you to be ricocheting portable holes and the like though.

[chimaeraUndying]

Conveniently enough the possible issue of chucking around portable holes or the like has been solved: there's a fairly firm "no" on anything that's not rationally throwable because of either common-sense aerodynamic issues (like the hole), or because of a lack of corporal form (one of my original discussions with the GM was throwing Living Spells at people, which ended up being a right mess for many other reasons).

I think the current plan is gonna be to Monkey Grip an outsize weapon in the main hand and have some sort of throwable utility item in the offhand. Figuring out what's best for that is the difficult part, though; perhaps a net? I'd need to ask if successfully entangling someone pulls them back to me.

[Psyren]

You can already throw nets though, making Throw Anything superfluous for this. They are ranged weapons. (Returning Throw will work though.)

You can use Net and Trident (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/net-and-trident-combat/) to throw nets with one hand.

[chimaeraUndying]

Net and Trident looks neat, but it's a bit feat-taxed for what I'd be using it for (I suppose I could try and eke out a compromise with the GM on that front). Got any idea if there's a way to throw oozes at people (created via the Craft Ooze feat)? That might be the sort of thing a specialized summoner could handle better, though...

Currently I'm looking through alchemical creations to see if there's anything useful in there. Since Dust of Sneezing and Choking is banned forever, I think Fungal Stun Vials might make for an adequate substitute -- they're only 75GP, too!

[Anxe]

Oozes would be creatures though, so I think that's out.

[chimaeraUndying]

The theory was that I'd store the ooze in some sort of Pokeball-like container which I couldn't remember the name (or existence) of, which ended up not panning out for fairly evident reasons.

It did lead me to discover the Petrified Ooze, though -- and the potential murder utility in force-feeding one to somebody before it's "active". I'll count that as a plus.

[Psyren]

Alchemists can do exactly that via the Bottled Ooze discovery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/bottled-ooze-su/). The problem though is that the ooze is explicitly released, so all you'd get back would be the bottle.

[ElChad]

Beartraps.

[Sky]

Beartraps.

Adamantine beartraps.

Or a mithral waffle iron, my favorite gem from the Ultimate Equipment guide. (Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be on the PFSRD...)

[chimaeraUndying]

Adamantine beartraps.

Isn't there a material that explodes or something? Might be fun to have a bear trap that discourages people from getting out of it...

In any case, would the better move here be to target the square an enemy is standing in with the trap, or just to lob it at their face?


Or a mithral waffle iron, my favorite gem from the Ultimate Equipment guide. (Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be on the PFSRD...)

This seems like the exact sort of silly item that my GM would allow on principle.

[Barstro]

In any case, would the better move here be to target the square an enemy is standing in with the trap, or just to lob it at their face?

Throwing a bear trap is simply throwing a hunk of metal.

Throwing an armed trap will do more damage, but it will be returned disarmed. Or it will be returned armed and potentially "dis-arm" you. I have trouble picturing someone arming a bear trap as a free action.

[chimaeraUndying]

Well, yeah, I figured the "armed" part was implicit. You're certainly right on the front that Returning Throw not being a "may" ability does make things somewhat... exciting... if the bear trap doesn't get tripped before it comes back to me.

[upho]

I think the current plan is gonna be to Monkey Grip an outsize weapon in the main hand and have some sort of throwable utility item in the offhand. Figuring out what's best for that is the difficult part, though; perhaps a net? I'd need to ask if successfully entangling someone pulls them back to me.If you're going with actual weapons anyways, you'll probably get a lot more out of using heavy shields than any other weapons, since heavy shields:

can be made into throwing weapons in a number of ways, the easiest/best typically being getting the throwing shield extra (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/shield-throwing) and a cracked opalescent white pyramid ion stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone/) for a total market price of 1550 gp (and simply putting the ioun in a wayfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/wayfinder-standard/) will also give you Weapon Focus (throwing shield) for a mere 500 gp).
benefit from the awesome Shield Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat-final/) feat, allowing heavy shields to be dual wielded without TWF attack penalties and to have the much cheaper shield enhancement bonus also work as a weapon enhancement bonus. Can be gained without having to meet prereqs by taking 6 levels of ranger with the Weapon and Shield combat style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/#TOC-Combat-Style-Feat-Ex-) (although especially in a game with DSP options, I'd recommend combining the Shield Champion brawler with other classes instead, see below).
allow for stacking magic weapon abilities with magic shield abilities for potentially very powerful and versatile effects at discount price.
have some great dirt cheap unique enchantment options, most notably bashing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/bashing/), maelstrom shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/maelstrom-shield/) and tempest shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/tempest-shield/).

To make the most out of these advantages, the best option is usually taking the mentioned 7-8 levels of Shield Champion brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/shield-champion/). This allows you to perform a number of combat maneuvers with thrown shields as if they were melee shield bashes, which in turn allows you to stack highly effective attack combos, seamlessly switching between ranged and melee in long chains of free action attacks and AoOs for massive damage and/or absolutely hilarious control effects.

When it comes to solving the problem of having your thrown weapons return, the returning weapon ability by itself is typically nothing but a trap, as are the similarly worded ranged (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-armor-and-shields#TOC-Ranged) and teleporting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Teleporting) psionic enchantments. Their key issue is that these abilities return your thrown weapon at the start of your next turn instead of immediately after resolving each ranged attack, typically making it impossible for you to make multiple attacks per round with sufficient accuracy.

AFAIK, there are two ways to avoid this issue; by combining a Blinkback Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back/) with the Quick Draw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat-final/) feat or (a wand of) the quick throwing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/q/quick-throwing/) spell, or by combining one of the above enchantments with the Returning Throw feat you were planning on anyways (teleporting is typically the safest and least restricted option). If, for some weird reason, your GM doesn't allow you to add ability score enhancement boosts to a Blinkback Belt or to an item slot other than belt, and/or if you're going to go with a half-giant or another psionic race and won't dip into a psionic class for psionic focus, the latter is probably the more cost efficient. Otherwise, the Blinkback + Quick Draw/quick throwing combo will likely be more cost effective since it bypasses the need for increasing your total weapon cost with yet another +1. This is of course especially true if you want to maximize the number of attacks you can make per round by wielding two heavy shields.

In addition, I recommend going Str-based and replacing Deadly Aim and a Belt of Mighty Hurling with Power Attack and Powerful Throw (from the excellent Akashic Mysteries, also by DSP).
You can leverage your great strength to control the flight of your thrown weapons.
Prerequisites: Strength 15, base attack bonus +1, Power Attack.
Benefit: You may use your Strength modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for your attack rolls when making a ranged attack with thrown weapons. You may also use the Power Attack feat instead of the Deadly Aim feat when attacking with thrown weapons.
Normal: Power Attack cannot be used with thrown weapons, and Dexterity, not Strength, is used for ranged attack rolls.With the Shield Champion levels, this allows a majority of your melee attack investments (Str focus, Power Attack and related options, CMB boosts, weapon/shield abilities etc) to also apply to your ranged attacks, transforming the thrown/switch-hitting combat style from one of the worst into one the best.

Here's an old example I made of a heavy shield switch-hitting control combo, primarily based on the Wolf Trip feat and the Maelstrom shield's free trip (copied from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454387-Wolf-Trip-Shield-Champion-Intimidation-Martial-Control-of-Gravitas&highlight=gravitas), which also includes a build example which may give you some ideas, though note that better options for achieving the same or a more impressive combo have become available):

This tank-/defender-centric combo demands a lot of resources, is highly dependent on access to specific items, and is also useless against the many enemies immune to trip. But at least as far as I can tell from my play testing, once it starts to get going I think it's just hilariously effective in many combat scenarios, beyond comparison to that of any other martial control combo limited to Paizo sources I've ever seen in play.

It's key component is Wolf Trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wolf-trip-wolf-style). Or more specifically, the following line in the feat's benefit description:
While using Wolf Style, whenever you successfully trip a creature, as a free action you may choose an available square adjacent to you for the tripped creature to land prone in.By itself and at first glance, this isn't anything spectacular. When added to a rather classic melee trip combo with Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp and a boosted melee reach, it allows for the Vicious Stomp AoO to be triggered if the target was tripped in a non-adjacent space using a reach weapon, and it can also make it harder for a tripped monster to get away and chew on squishy allies. Useful if the goal is to ramp up damage through AoOs, and it can be very good for locking down a target when combined with other melee control and debuff abilities. But it's not exactly enabling anything revolutionary, and it's typically not as vital as many other feats are for dedicated trip or control builds.

However, as Wolf Trip has no range limit whatsoever, imagine if we could trip an enemy from, say, up to more than 300 feet away? And imagine if we could do that with every attack in a full attack, on top of dealing normal damage?

Well I say: Yes we can!

And here are the best options I've found to make it happen:

A. The 7th level benefit of the Throw Shield feature of the Shield Champion brawler archetype:
At 7th level, a shield champion can use a thrown shield to perform a bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, reposition, or trip combat maneuver as if she were making a melee shield bash attack.


B. The Maelstrom Shield specific magic shield (14,170 gp) benefit:
When used to make a shield bash attack, the shield's wielder can make a trip attack as a free action against the same target without provoking an attack of opportunity from the creature being tripped.


C. The distance magic weapon ability, and preferably some basic ranged feats and the Shield Master feat.

D. A blinkback belt and Quick Draw feat. Though neither are strictly needed for dealing with a single target, being able to cover enormous areas means having several ranged attacks per round allows for impressive mass-control capacity, one of the unique major potential strengths of the combo.

When combined with the previously mentioned standard trip combo, the end result is a highly versatile shield bash attack packed with control mechanics that can be repeated several times per round, requiring no or very few additional actions. The following details the events triggered by a single such "Black Hole" shield bash, though whether all or just a few are included and the exact order in which they're triggered may depend on other related components and, as far as I can tell, can be modified for each attack:

1. Shield bash attack, melee or thrown with a 60 ft range, made as a part of any action including one or more attacks, rolled as normal and dealing damage as normal.

2. Free trip attempt regardless of whether the initial attack hits or misses. A few important details:

RAW, nothing specifies whether the trip attempt must be resolved before or after any bull rush attempt, or even before or after determining whether the initial attack hits. I assume this means the first roll made in the entire attack can actually be the trip check.
As far as I can tell, a free action attack (such as this trip attempt) that is not replacing a normal attack is rolled at full BAB unless otherwise noted, even if the event the free attack accompanies happens to be an iterative attack using a lower BAB.
In accordance with the FAQ regarding free action combat maneuver checks triggered by attacks, the trip attempt granted by the Maelstrom Shield can be made even if the triggering shield bash is made outside the attacker's turn, such as when making an AoO.

3. Free bull rush attempt if the initial attack hits, using the die roll of the initial shield bash attack for the bull rush check.

4. Target moved as free action and falls prone in a free adjacent space of the attacker's choice if the trip attempt succeeds.

5. The shield returns to the blinkback belt and can be immediately drawn again as a free action. This may happen more than once, for example after making a free action ranged combat maneuver check such as the trip attempt described above. (Though it probably has no impact on the mechanics in this case, the belt's description can be interpreted to say an associated weapon always returns after each separate attack has been resolved, which in this case could result in the shield being thrown and teleporting back more than 15 times during the course of an entire full attack.)

5. The first combat maneuver triggers AoOs as appropriate on success - from allies only on a bull rush maneuver with Greater Bull Rush, or from the attacker as well as allies on a trip maneuver with Greater Trip.

6. The second combat maneuver triggers AoOs as described above.

8. Vicious Stomp AoO triggered.

Note that no AoOs has to be made for the basic control mechanic to work since both the trip attempt and the moving of a tripped target to adjacent are free actions. And as mentioned, it seems the attacker can change the order of the above significantly, for example by throwing the shield and:

make the free trip attempt granted by the maelstrom shield
resolve the ranged shield bash attack
move the target to adjacent using Wolf Trip
resolve any AoOs granted by Greater Trip
make the Vicious Stomp AoO triggered by the target falling prone
make the free bull rush attempt granted by Shield Slam
resolve any AoOs triggered by Greater Bull Rush

During a single full attack, a build affected by haste or similar with two maelstrom shields along with the full Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain, Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 40 could make all of the above combo up to eight times against as many enemies, each target risking being hit by a total of three damage-dealing attacks on top of being bull rushed, tripped, moved into a poor position and hit by several additional AoOs from the attacker's allies. But even without a high Dex score or using a single AoO, the combo still allows a defender to attack several distant enemies and gathering them up flat on their bellies well within melee threat range.

I guess it's obvious why I call it the "Black Hole Control Combo". :smalltongue:



If you're interested in doing a "Captain Andoran", I'll be happy to provide you with more details, as well as more updated examples and tips of possible combos and builds.

[chimaeraUndying]

Wow, that's, uh, really awesome; I never realized shields were just that good. I can probably crunch out a build from what you've provided without too much difficulty, thanks!