Need a lot of advice on my ideas for a very low magic game

[Luccan]

I'm gonna preface this by saying, I'm aware a lot of my choices here defy the conventional wisdom of this forum. I'd like you to work with me on these ideas, not suggest I use different classes or not do this in any form. It might not end up working, but I'd at least like to work on the idea. With that out of the way...

I'm very interested in the idea of low-magic games and my most recent ideas for one have me excited, but I'm worried about balance, namely because the classes available are these:


• Barbarian
• Dragon Shaman
• Fighter
• Knight
• Marshal
• Monk
• Ninja
• Paladin (CW Spell-less)
• Ranger(CW Spell-less)
• Rogue
• Samurai (CW)
• Scout
• Swashbuckler
• DMG NPC classes too, except Adept (although why you’d want to be any other NPC class…)

I'm considering adding Soulknife and finding/making a spell-less Hexblade, but all the above are definitely in.



Now, for the most part these classes are within a close power-versatility range. Some will be better than others, but most classes are giving you something that might be worth a dip. There are a few common adjustments to classes, as follows:

All classes have at least 4+int for skills

UMD is unnecessary 99% of the time. Barring some potential special items, if you know how to activate a magic item, you can use it.

Multi-classing restrictions are removed (For instance, Monks can multi-class)

Alignment restrictions loosened to within a step of their RAW limits (Monks and Samurai can now be Neutral along the Law-Chaos spectrum, Barbarians can be any alignment, Classic Paladin can be LG,NG, or LN and so on)
I'm pretty comfortable with the above, but I thought I'd add it for completeness and see what else people had to say.

What's really troubling me is some of my more specific class houserule/homebrew choices. I'll list the iffy classes first and try to explain my thoughts on them. My basic worry is that, while these would be far from overpowered in a normal game (and thus I would not hesitate to implement them there), in this game, they might be too good (or not).



Dragon Shaman

Stop laughing. I know, this class is considered pretty awful, but it already wouldn't be terrible in this game. I'll cover the easy things first: Knowledge (Arcana) is now a class skill and they learn Draconic at first level, it's isn't an optional bonus language. I don't know why they weren't designed this way in the first place, they're both dragon related.

Ok, here's where it gets a little questionable, when considered with the other classes. Firstly, their touch of vitality comes on line at level 2. This decision was largely to give would-be healers a choice other than Paladin at low levels (might not even matter if someone finds a wand of cure light wounds). The remove condition effect is now split into parts over the next 9 levels. It breaks down like this:
5th level: spend 5 points to cure 1 point of ability damage or remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition

8th level: spend 10 to remove exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition

11th level: spend 20 to remove a negative level or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition

Not terribly worried about that, but then there's the Auras. The Marshal gets wrapped up in this as well. Their auras (especially the Marshal's major auras) are kind of awful. I mean, the Marshal has some good things going with the right minor auras, but otherwise, there auras are meh. I was thinking of using their Cha bonus instead or in addition to their aura bonuses, but that would produce a major shift in numbers for a few auras that I'm not comfortable with. So my concern is this: How do I keep the Marshal competitive with their Major Auras without throwing things off too much? Example: DR 5/- all day at 2nd level (Aura bonus and 18 Cha). How do I boost Dragon Shaman Aura's without giving them too many buffs?

Oh and Marshals get 6+int skills


The following are more certain, but might not be enough to make the classes competitive:


Samurai choose an exotic weapon to be proficient with and get to choose from fighter bonus feats instead of their weird not-Two Weapon Fighting chain. They gain Imperious Command at 5th level, whether or not they qualify.

Monks get 6+int skills.

I'm still not convinced either class becomes a choice equal to others, but Samurai now gives more options and fill their niche a little better and Monks don't need to be as worried about skills. There also might be adjustments needed to other classes, these are just two of the commonly discussed weaker classes.


My only other question is how many Point-Buy points to use. All these classes can get pretty MAD, so I want to be sure they can perform their roles, but without being able to completely roll over other classes.

Oh, books in use by default for the campaign are CW, CS, CA, PHB I&II, Miniatures Handbook, and UA. Mostly the books where these classes are found, basically.

I appreciate what advice you can give.

Edit: That line about NPC classes.

Edit 2: Why do it this way, you may ask. Well, I'm looking to run a low-magic campaign without casting or caster stand-ins like psions or warlocks or ToM and so on. The world still has magic in it (relics from when the world had wizards and such, monsters, and of course, a few PC class abilities), just not to the degree you'd be used to in a regular 3.5 game.

[Godskook]

I would be very curious as to:

1.Why you have not elected into a E6-esque ruleset.

2.Why you have not grabbed ToB(Even with just Setting Sun and Tiger Claw, Swordsage "works"). They're

3.Why you are questioning the desirability of Adept in your ruleset(its actually a pretty good choice by sheer lack of competition)

4.Why you are doing what you're doing. You want "low-magic". *WHY*. What goal are you trying to achieve in your setting, and how does "low-magic" fulfill those goals?

[ATHATH]

Low-Magic doesn't really work in 3.5; I'd recommend running this game in a different system.

If you insist on running 3.5, I'd recommend running an E6 game with all classes allowed and just tell your players to aim for Tier 3 characters. Your game will still be low-magic (since no spells higher than 3rd level would exist), and your players will have more options. It's a win-win for everyone.

[Luccan]

I would be very curious as to:

1.Why you have not elected into a E6-esque ruleset.

2.Why you have not grabbed ToB(Even with just Setting Sun and Tiger Claw, Swordsage "works"). They're

3.Why you are questioning the desirability of Adept in your ruleset(its actually a pretty good choice by sheer lack of competition)

4.Why you are doing what you're doing. You want "low-magic". *WHY*. What goal are you trying to achieve in your setting, and how does "low-magic" fulfill those goals?

I made a mistake in not being clear on my intent for the game as a whole in the OP. I'll explain my purpose, then try to answer as best I can. I'm aiming for a setting without spellcasting or spellcasting stand-ins like psionics or invocations (or ToM or...). These sorts of classes did existed in the setting (leaving behind magic relics), but are long since gone. But, even without spellcasting (maybe some select few spell-like abilities they'd normally get, but not real caster levels) monsters still exist in the world and this game/setting would be about the above average, but mostly normal, people that make it their business to deal with them.

Side note: The two aura guys make the cut for a few reasons: The first reason, the one that made me even consider them, was the Paladin's aura. Not the same mechanic, but paladins make use of a (Su) aura, spells or not. So why not an (Ex) type aura from a Marshal? Then the Dragon Shaman: Without casters, paladins are the only viable non-item healers. But here we have more (Su) auras on a class that, with a little tweaking, has a viable item free heal for the goals of the game.

Please note, I'm aware this might not go anywhere, but don't worry, I won't try unleashing it on anyone unsuspecting and I'll only use it if and when it seems ready (and possibly not even then, this is as much about seeing if I can do it as actually using it).

1. I'm not opposed to E6, but part of E6 is shutting down class progression at a certain point. Now, I want to make it clear, I hold no illusions that a party without spell casters can take on all "level appropriate" encounters, but I don't have any problem with their various class levels increasing. I could houserule the progression back into E6, but then there was no point in using E6, really. I'm definitely taking E6 under consideration, but that doesn't really deal with all my specific problems any way (like with boosting the auras)

2. I'm aware ToB is better (than pretty much every class listed, in fact), but it doesn't feel fitting for the setting. And despite not having a problem with it outside this context, it feels too caster-y to me. Another thing I'll take under consideration, but I'd need to think about what I'd be using from it.

3. Wow, I need to rewrite that. Yes, Adepts would be very desirable in the setting. Which is why I meant that Adepts aren't in the setting, so I have no idea what NPC class you'd want, not that I have no idea why you'd want an Adept. Total editing error on my part. As to why there aren't adepts, well, see above.

4. As to why, the original idea was simply that I'd find it fun to run/play in a setting that had no casters or casting stand-ins. So far I have a bit of the world worked out, but I didn't make the setting, then the rules. I made the rules, then the setting.

[Luccan]

Low-Magic doesn't really work in 3.5; I'd recommend running this game in a different system.

If you insist on running 3.5, I'd recommend running an E6 game with all classes allowed and just tell your players to aim for Tier 3 characters. Your game will still be low-magic (since no spells higher than 3rd level would exist), and your players will have more options. It's a win-win for everyone.

Should've made it clear, I want to avoid casting and casting stand-ins like Psions, Warlocks, etc. I won't be using this with anyone who isn't totally aware of what they're getting into. And if while I'm trying to iron out bugs I decide I could never make it work, then I won't bother with it. E6 is being taken under consideration, though it doesn't really do anything for me in this case, except keep people from gaining class abilities.

[Crake]

I run a significantly modified ruleset for 3.5 that greatly supports a no magic environment for the players. This is an almost practically true no-magic environment, with no access to spells or wildly supernatural/SLA abilities by the players, no expectation of spellcasting services from NPCs anywhere, and only having enemy spellcasters once in a blue moon, as something of a final boss, maybe. You honestly can't have the game feel like it's low-magic if half the players are playing something supernatural, and there's a caster around each corner. To make it feel rare, it has to BE rare.

To complement this, I run e6, it's practically necessary to stop the players getting overwhelmed by any sort of magic at higher levels, as well as a number of variant rules presented in Unearthed Arcana, and pathfinder unchained (I run 3.5, but I'm totally happy to borrow from pathfinder).

The main change I run is wounds/vitality instead of hp, and this is to compensate for the lack of healing. With this system, someone brought down to single digits of vitality will be back to full fighting shape in just a matter of hours, rather than days, but it also makes crits much more swingy, feel free to homebrew that part out if you'd like.
The second change is more geared toward my setting atm, I'm running an early-wild-west game atm, so I'm using the class defense bonus to let people bump up their touch saves, and then also running armor as damage reduction to still give people a reason to wear armor.
Finally, I'm also running the automatic bonus progression rules from unchained, using the no items variant, where you're considered 2 levels higher. By level 6, this gives players: +2 resistance to saves, +1 natural/deflection to AC, +2 to a single mental and a single physical ability score, and the ability to attune for +1 to two masterwork weapons and two sets of masterwork armors (or shields, or combination therof).

Now, as you can see, this leaves many holes in the players' capbilities to deal with. They lack any kind of magic item, meaning they cannot bypass DR/magic, they lack see invisibility to deal with invisible opponents, and so on. The way I deal with this is alchemical items and special materials. There are so many out there for 3.5 that as long as you make your players aware of their options, they can deal with anything within the range of e6. Torchbug paste acts like a 1 hour, mundane faerie fire, weapons made of Cyrite can bypass DR/magic, Weapons made of Serrenwood gain the ghost touch weapon quality, weapon blanches from pathfinder can help combine qualities, like Cyrite and a cold Iron blanche to cover DR/cold iron and magic.
Anything that isn't covered, you can just homebrew. I've had stuff in my setting called wierdstone water, which has minute particles of weirdstone within it from a mage's experiment a LOONNGGG time ago, which, if a creature is doused in it, they are effectively dimensionally anchored until they clean themselves, much like the torchbug paste. Handy for dealing with demons/devils and their pesky teleportation ability.

[rel]

The game assumes you get scaling bonuses to stats, saves damage, AC and so on.
If you are not providing these then go for a really large point buy like 40 or 50 points to try and compensate.

Even then, the players will become progressively weaker as they level because the monsters will scale faster than they do.
without magical defenses or save boosts monsters with SoD or SoS abilities will be devestating
A lack of utility means a special trick like flight or invis will have the potential to dominate if the party doesn't have an answer.

Then there is the cleric problem, a lot of monsters are written assuming you have a cleric. Such creatures have abilities that may as well read 'usable at will: If you do not have a divine caster kill one player' The party will be seriously vulnerable to debuffs; poisons, diseases, damage, drain, blinds and other wierd riders.
The dragon shaman helps a little but only comes online at mid levels, has very limited resources and has no way to deal with more esoteric stuff like curses.

Finally, unless your players are good at optimising they stand a good chance of losing a fair fight against a competent bruiser monster from simple damage.
The barbarian charges in and brings the giant to half health. The giant notices the barbarians laughable AC goes all in on the power attack and full attacks in response. The barbarian takes approximately twice his maximum HP in damage.

[Luccan]

The game assumes you get scaling bonuses to stats, saves damage, AC and so on.
If you are not providing these then go for a really large point buy like 40 or 50 points to try and compensate.

Even then, the players will become progressively weaker as they level because the monsters will scale faster than they do.
without magical defenses or save boosts monsters with SoD or SoS abilities will be devestating
A lack of utility means a special trick like flight or invis will have the potential to dominate if the party doesn't have an answer.

Then there is the cleric problem, a lot of monsters are written assuming you have a cleric. Such creatures have abilities that may as well read 'usable at will: If you do not have a divine caster kill one player' The party will be seriously vulnerable to debuffs; poisons, diseases, damage, drain, blinds and other wierd riders.
The dragon shaman helps a little but only comes online at mid levels, has very limited resources and has no way to deal with more esoteric stuff like curses.

Finally, unless your players are good at optimising they stand a good chance of losing a fair fight against a competent bruiser monster from simple damage.
The barbarian charges in and brings the giant to half health. The giant notices the barbarians laughable AC goes all in on the power attack and full attacks in response. The barbarian takes approximately twice his maximum HP in damage.

I'm hesitant to give them the full Touch of Vitality at level 2 (don't want to totally over-shadow the paladin), but I suppose that is part of the problem trying to design around this stuff. At some point, somebody has to pass somebody. Appreciate the feed back, I'll need to take a closer look at the sort of things a party would be facing.

Edit: Definitely giving max health at each level. Not gonna save them every time, but that'll provide slightly better protection vs damage

[Godskook]

I run a slightly different version of E6 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16FfgVpvPDWm2DAHznP5AU4BRkI3nf_mfBOekEv4750s/edit?usp=sharing). I call it "Approach", or Approach 6(A6) when I cap it at 6.

Basic summary:

Multiclassing is gestalt-only. Each class gets its own track.
Gain additional skills for each gestalt
Gain feats per 3 class levels, not 3 HD
Characters progress HP, slowly, up to the theoretical level 6 cap.(72+6*Con base)
Can't progress past level 6
No stat-bumps, but gain 1 point-buy every class level


Pros, as I see it:

Makes builds less "dysfunctionally weak"
Enables generalist builds as not being distinctly weak compared to specialists.
More friendly build-paths for new players
Builds feel more "full"
Well built level 6 single-class characters can co-exist alongside veteran characters.


----------

I run the above in a setting where there's blatantly level 10-15 characters running around in the background, rarely, with easy-access to higher-CL gear, but it'd work just as well in a low-availability setting, probably better.


I'm not opposed to E6, but part of E6 is shutting down class progression at a certain point. Now, I want to make it clear, I hold no illusions that a party without spell casters can take on all "level appropriate" encounters, but I don't have any problem with their various class levels increasing. I could houserule the progression back into E6, but then there was no point in using E6, really. I'm definitely taking E6 under consideration

Most mundanes don't "progress" past ~6 in any real meaningful way that's distinct from the E6 approach. "More damage", against "more HP" from monsters. "More attack bonus" vs. "more AC". There's a few feat-likes(or actual feats) that'd be perfectly balanced as feats in E6, but otherwise, you're just playing "stack numbers vs. numbers", the game. It adds to DM prep-time without meaningfully adding to how PCs play.

Go through, review them. Fighter *LITERALLY* just gets some feats(although admittedly, with a few higher pre-reqs, but almost all the best fighter feats are E6-compatible). Rogue gets some feat-likes. Paladin just gets increase usage on his per-days and feats(you took his spells). Ranger gets HiPS, which could be a capstone feat for Rangers in E6, just fine, imho. Barbarians get DR at 7(which E6 already suggests is a capstone-able thing), and then just increased numbers to things. Monk's the only core mundane option with a mildly notable post-6 progression, beyond "more numbers" and "more feats". But *REALLY* look at those class features and ask: how many of these would be over-powered as feats for a level 6 character? Answer is that basically all of them are available at level 6-8(lean-up E6).

By contrast, E6 will save you, as the DM, time, because you're not fighting the "more numbers" problem that high-level mundanes bring, so your level 4 NPCs will stay relevant for a *LONG* time, and your level 6-8 Villains will basically never go stale. Plus, monsters like Manticores, Trolls, and Gryphons stay cool and relevant without modification, while Illithids and Dragons are *SCARY*. The stories will be far more "mundane" in nature too, which also saves you time in trying to imagine the absurdities surrounding how level-20 characters think in relation to level 2 characters(even a level 20 Fighter would think us ants, with his 20 BAB and +35(or more) attack bonus, against a normal person's sub-25 AC).


but that doesn't really deal with all my specific problems any way (like with boosting the auras)

1.Best way to boost "Major" Auras(Dragon Shaman's auras and Marshal's Majors) is to give them access to the splat-support Bard has access to for Inspire Courage, either by making that stuff directly compatible or homebrewing replacements that use 99% of the same stats.

2.Progressing these sorts of things is less of an issue in an E6-like environment because its E6. You won't have as much of a problem to fix at all, and the solutions will be different. Might as well get the larger discussion settled before the smaller discussion commences, no?

[zlefin]

on dragon shaman: I'd say that might make them too good (the healing touch buff). In a world with as limited healing access as this, the dragon shaman's healing aura may be the best healing source around. sure it can't get you to full, but it can keep going forever at no cost.

on aura scaling, I'd say the solution to your quandary would be to either simply increase the rates at which the major auras scale; or allow adding the cha bonus to the big ones, BUT with a cap of level/2 or 3;

monk will still be too weak; give them full BAB, that should be enough to make them somewhat useable.


I'm assuming magic items will be very scarce, so people won't be getting the boosts they'd normally get from them? that's hard on mundanes.

to fix that, and on point buy: I'd say change your overall stat system a bit; instead of +1 to a stat every 4 levels as normal; have people start with a typical point buy, like 25-30; but gain +1 or +2 point buy worth of stats (so the higher a stat gets, the more expensive it is to raise it, and extend the table for point buy past 18) every level. that will help compensate for the normal scaling that would occur by magic, while allowing variation and player choice.

[Hackulator]

Look at it this way: your game is guaranteed to be more balanced than any game with both martials and t1/t2 classes. I wouldn't worry about it too much. All the listed classes should be able to compete....although marshal is horrible.

[Luccan]

I run a slightly different version of E6 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16FfgVpvPDWm2DAHznP5AU4BRkI3nf_mfBOekEv4750s/edit?usp=sharing). I call it "Approach", or Approach 6(A6) when I cap it at 6.

Basic summary:

Multiclassing is gestalt-only. Each class gets its own track.
Gain additional skills for each gestalt
Gain feats per 3 class levels, not 3 HD
Characters progress HP, slowly, up to the theoretical level 6 cap.(72+6*Con base)
Can't progress past level 6
No stat-bumps, but gain 1 point-buy every class level


Pros, as I see it:

Makes builds less "dysfunctionally weak"
Enables generalist builds as not being distinctly weak compared to specialists.
More friendly build-paths for new players
Builds feel more "full"
Well built level 6 single-class characters can co-exist alongside veteran characters.


----------

I run the above in a setting where there's blatantly level 10-15 characters running around in the background, rarely, with easy-access to higher-CL gear, but it'd work just as well in a low-availability setting, probably better.



Most mundanes don't "progress" past ~6 in any real meaningful way that's distinct from the E6 approach. "More damage", against "more HP" from monsters. "More attack bonus" vs. "more AC". There's a few feat-likes(or actual feats) that'd be perfectly balanced as feats in E6, but otherwise, you're just playing "stack numbers vs. numbers", the game. It adds to DM prep-time without meaningfully adding to how PCs play.

Go through, review them. Fighter *LITERALLY* just gets some feats(although admittedly, with a few higher pre-reqs, but almost all the best fighter feats are E6-compatible). Rogue gets some feat-likes. Paladin just gets increase usage on his per-days and feats(you took his spells). Ranger gets HiPS, which could be a capstone feat for Rangers in E6, just fine, imho. Barbarians get DR at 7(which E6 already suggests is a capstone-able thing), and then just increased numbers to things. Monk's the only core mundane option with a mildly notable post-6 progression, beyond "more numbers" and "more feats". But *REALLY* look at those class features and ask: how many of these would be over-powered as feats for a level 6 character? Answer is that basically all of them are available at level 6-8(lean-up E6).

By contrast, E6 will save you, as the DM, time, because you're not fighting the "more numbers" problem that high-level mundanes bring, so your level 4 NPCs will stay relevant for a *LONG* time, and your level 6-8 Villains will basically never go stale. Plus, monsters like Manticores, Trolls, and Gryphons stay cool and relevant without modification, while Illithids and Dragons are *SCARY*. The stories will be far more "mundane" in nature too, which also saves you time in trying to imagine the absurdities surrounding how level-20 characters think in relation to level 2 characters(even a level 20 Fighter would think us ants, with his 20 BAB and +35(or more) attack bonus, against a normal person's sub-25 AC).



1.Best way to boost "Major" Auras(Dragon Shaman's auras and Marshal's Majors) is to give them access to the splat-support Bard has access to for Inspire Courage, either by making that stuff directly compatible or homebrewing replacements that use 99% of the same stats.

2.Progressing these sorts of things is less of an issue in an E6-like environment because its E6. You won't have as much of a problem to fix at all, and the solutions will be different. Might as well get the larger discussion settled before the smaller discussion commences, no?


Good points. I know E6 is partly meant to keep the classic stuff relevant. Having these points brought up also goes pretty well in favor of E6 as well (I always forget about the "lean-up" approach, because I think of E6 in terms of an all-classes game). Questions about your method: So, when a character reaches, let's say level 6, if they decide to add a second class, that class would give them 6 skill points (skills points=HD)? I also don't remotely understand the precise HP method at all.

[Luccan]

Now, as you can see, this leaves many holes in the players' capbilities to deal with. They lack any kind of magic item, meaning they cannot bypass DR/magic, they lack see invisibility to deal with invisible opponents, and so on. The way I deal with this is alchemical items and special materials. There are so many out there for 3.5 that as long as you make your players aware of their options, they can deal with anything within the range of e6. Torchbug paste acts like a 1 hour, mundane faerie fire, weapons made of Cyrite can bypass DR/magic, Weapons made of Serrenwood gain the ghost touch weapon quality, weapon blanches from pathfinder can help combine qualities, like Cyrite and a cold Iron blanche to cover DR/cold iron and magic.
Anything that isn't covered, you can just homebrew. I've had stuff in my setting called wierdstone water, which has minute particles of weirdstone within it from a mage's experiment a LOONNGGG time ago, which, if a creature is doused in it, they are effectively dimensionally anchored until they clean themselves, much like the torchbug paste. Handy for dealing with demons/devils and their pesky teleportation ability.

Do you keep a list of alchemical items or do you know most of them from memory at this point?

[Deeds]

Eh, I think the less homebrew the better. After awhile, building a character feels more like a homework asignment with a tab on Paladin handbook and another tab with the DM's checklist of "Do Not Bother Cheesing."
I do like homebrew that adds a bonus or two and an agreement to not cheese it.

As others have said don't be afraid to throw out some bonuses to help compensate for lack of spell buffs.

[Godskook]

Good points. I know E6 is partly meant to keep the classic stuff relevant. Having these points brought up also goes pretty well in favor of E6 as well (I always forget about the "lean-up" approach, because I think of E6 in terms of an all-classes game).

You don't ~need~ to "lean-up" in Approach 6, as that system has *TONS* of variety already baked in.


Questions about your method: So, when a character reaches, let's say level 6, if they decide to add a second class

Actually, in my method, in Approach 6, Warlock 4//Marshall 4//Cleric 1 is a legal build, and in fact, a build a player just started the game with just two days ago. You do not have to get previous classes to 6 in order to open up new tracks. However, I do recommend capstone feats for hitting level 6 in various classes, in order to balance out people's urge to dip a little. Not too much, because you want the system to feel "open" not "one path to power".


Questions about your method: So, when a character reaches, let's say level 6, if they decide to add a second class, that class would give them 6 skill points (skills points=HD)? I also don't remotely understand the precise HP method at all.

If you go Wizard 6->Rogue 1, here's what happens:

1. You increment your "total class levels", for the purpose new feats and point-buy
2. You get all the cool parts about being a Rogue 1, SA, Trapfinding, etc.
3. Your HP goes up ~slightly~. It goes from:



Class
1
2
3
4
5
6
Total


Wizard
4+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
14+Con*6



to:



Class
1
2
3
4
5
6
Total


Wizard
1+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
11+Con*6


Rogue
6
-
-
-
-
-
6


Total
7+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
2+Con
17+Con*6



4. You get 8*4 skill points, as normal for a first-level Rogue, but you don't count your Int the second time around. Further levels in Rogue grant 8 skill points.

[ksbsnowowl]

I ran a Norse-themed gestalt game several years ago that I specifically designed as "Rare Magic" rather than "Low Magic." I described the difference thusly:

Low magic is where your 15th level fighter is begging to get a +1 or a +2 sword. Rare magic assumes that the PC's will be equipped with appropriate wealth by level, and with appropriately-leveled equipment (15th level fighter probably has a +4 weapon), but the world doesn't have much magic item trade, so there aren't MagicMarts where PC's can sell and buy any magic item they want; they will mostly be equipped with the magic gear they looted off their fallen foes.

To further this "Rare Magic" goal, in a gestalt world that had Wizards, Clerics, and Druids, all item creation feats had their requisite caster levels doubled (so you couldn't take Craft Magic Arms and Armor until you were a 10th level caster, for example). This aspect of your game seems to be taken care of, given your world's design goal of there simply being no casters around any longer. Given that, the Rare Magic approach to items might be something to consider. It helps avoid too many issues with the Third Edition d20 system's assumptions of character abilities, though it's certainly not perfect (and in my campaign, there were still full casters to help where you might not have exactly the items you need). It worked well for me, and I ran that game weekly for over four years; several of my players have said it was their favorite campaign they've ever played.

One other option that I was recently toying with, was to build the system's assumed abilities right into the character progression. I was toying with giving all Heroic characters the benefits of Vow of Poverty for free (without having to actually be in poverty). Maybe there's a story reason for it, but there doesn't have to be. My quickly-devised take on it was something akin to the Birthright campaign setting; certain individuals in the world had the blood of gods flowing through their veins. These individuals are destined to be powerful forces in the world, as great heroes, or powerful villains. In short, they are something more than the common man. But again, that's just story and fluff; you could just as easily just declare that the bonuses from VoP are inherent to all characters in the world. Sure, having magical relics helps, but characters can get by on their own with mundane weapons, if they have to. It basically opens up a way to do the "low magic" thing, while simultaneously covering your bases as far as the d20 system's construction and assumptions are concerned.

[Crake]

Do you keep a list of alchemical items or do you know most of them from memory at this point?

Mostly just things I found over the course of a long gaming career, half the time I can't remember what the things are called, but i know generally what they do, and just use google to hone in on the book i need to check. No consolidated list unfortunately :smallfrown: